The War in IRAQ...

[Dirtcrasher]

I'm opening a big can of worms here......

We share a love for 3 wheelers but as far as current events, I'm just curious how you guys feel about our situation in Iraq.

I for one just don't understand why we still have loved ones there being killed when there are no weapons of mass destruction and they don't seem to want us there anyhow?

The threat of terrorism is there any and all times from any country, any race or from within ourselves.

Haven't we done all we can do over there by now? They aren't ever gonna run out of crazy mo fo's that will fight us back. If they want to blow themselves up and believe in what they believe in, who are we to change them??

We are not gonna fix IRAQ, why don't we fix the good old USA??

Why are we and why do we need to be the Police of IRAQ??

Can someone justify the cost of this war and the loss of our citizens??

[chris200x]

have you noticed since were over there.. they ain't killing us over here? (knock on wood)

IMO this is a fight we just can't turn our backs on. Nobody was thinking this back in 01 when they hijacked those planes and killed over 3000 of us. This is a fight that must be fought.. and I'd rather it be there than here.

[Billy Golightly]

Theres lots of reason I think we should stay. I know theres probably several people here that don't support the war, or the reasons we are there...so I'm going to ask you to atleast take 30-45 minutes of your time, and read a few of Michael Yon's dispatches. He is an embedded reporter over in Iraq that has been there since almost the beginning days, and he has some very unique (and very little heard of) insights of the whole operation. His website is www.michaelyon-online.com

Its difficult to keep an open mind of the big, overall picture, and the purpose we are serving there, but dispatches like this one: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/bread-and-a-circus-part-i-of-ii.htm and its follow up: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/bread-and-a-circus-part-ii-of-ii.htm sure do help me.

[Havoxx]

Personally, I'm against and for it, fact is, since the war started, prices on everything have skyrocketed, and the economy is going to hell. However, the US is both smart and stupid at the same time for going there, first, it's smart because it ends the terrorism here(not completely, but it's a start), but, second, it's stupid, because we're wasting our money and resources, and soldiers, to educate them, and make it a democracy.

That's great and all, but that is why the US is the country with the biggest debt, we give give give, and never receive, as time goes on, our dollar becomes even more worthless, and it's sad, I love this country, but if it goes on like this, it's gonna be another depression.

[Yamada]

have you noticed since were over there.. they ain't killing us over here? (knock on wood)

IMO this is a fight we just can't turn our backs on. Nobody was thinking this back in 01 when they hijacked those planes and killed over 3000 of us. This is a fight that must be fought.. and I'd rather it be there than here.

Do you think all the person living in Iraq are terrorist? Maybe they were a "criminal organization" that hijacked the planes but it was not a government or a country that organized this attack.

[RedRider_AK]

have you noticed since were over there.. they ain't killing us over here? (knock on wood).

By "they", do you mean radical Muslims, or Iraqi's? Because as far as I know, Iraqi's never "killed us over here" at all. :wondering

[DixiePlowboy]

By "they", do you mean radical Muslims, or Iraqi's? Because as far as I know, Iraqi's never "killed us over here" at all. :wondering


Exactly!

I'm for every service person over there to do their job, kick some tail, and come home in one piece. That said, however, I'm for a complete investigation into what REALLY has our troops over there....bleeding and dying......and it sure as H*LL ain't 9/11, terrorism, or WMDs. I have my own beliefs as to what the real motivation was for the move on Iraq(under false pretenses), while the effort in Afganistan and AQ(the real terrorists) was comparitively small and still incomplete.

[300rman]

ok....look at all the past wars........any hot war in the past, the total deaths in this iraq war on our side would equal about a day's worth in, say, WWII or Vietnam.
if we pull out now, they will just get taken back over, iraq will invade iran, and it will be worse than before, thus creating a bigger threat to us and having to go back again.......BUSH 1 didnt finish it the first time, and LOOK...10 years later, were back....

[SYKO]

I still say bomb that place untill the indian ocean gets bigger. And be like "Iraq?" what Iraq? theres just an ocean der esse'

[The Goat]

Chris200x hit the nail on the head...however, may have gotten the point wrong.

the bush administration follows the roman model...and with the US as the current hegemon that isn't a bad choice. basically, if you make war in a far away land, war won't be close.

I support the soldiers...the end.

I have class with a few guys who have done a tour...they usually sit quietly when someone ridicules the war or soldiers, talking to them, they believe they are doing good and helping out. building schools, creating an infrastructure, water and so on. but I've never been to war, and like most I won't ever know, so...i'll shut up now.

[chris200x]

Do you think all the person living in Iraq are terrorist? Maybe they were a "criminal organization" that hijacked the planes but it was not a government or a country that organized this attack.

Your right DC you have opened a big can of worms. :D

Yamada.. not sure how you got that idea from my statement. I never said anything like that. :rolleyes: let me ask this. you don't think those people are better off now without that madman behind the helm?

We're there cause no one else has the balls to do all the dirty work. I support our troops 1000%. they signed up for it volentarily.. no one is there against their will.


By "they", do you mean radical Muslims, or Iraqi's? Because as far as I know, Iraqi's never "killed us over here" at all.

Think back to the first time they tried bringing down the towers back in 91' or whenever it was.. weren't some of those nitwits from iraq? :crazy: that ramsey youseff or whatever the heck is name was.. I should of n3ever got involved in this thread.. I hate politcs. :cry:

[Dirtcrasher]

I support our soldiers also, I just believe it's a lost cause and continues to put this country into further debt.

May sound horrible, but I think we should have warned any Americans over there to get out and then nuked the hell out of them.

They hate Americans, there ignorant and the majority of them don't want us over there.

I don't get involved in politics myself, I just think it's a waste of time and money and won't prevent anyone from doing what they want to us anyhow....

[chris200x]

Your right DC you have some good points. fact is they've been killing themselves over in that area of the world for over 2000 years.. whats gonna stop them now? I'm sure that nasty 3 letter word has alot to do with it as well. OIL!!!

tough subject and not everyone is gonna see eye to eye.

[300rman]

I still say bomb that place untill the indian ocean gets bigger. And be like "Iraq?" what Iraq? theres just an ocean der esse'

i agree 10,000%

[69HemiGTX]

iraq will invade iran.......BUSH 1 didnt finish it the first time......

You've got that backwards. Iran will invade Iraq, and that's why we're still here. We don't want Iran to be the bull in the China shop over here. If you think we have problems now, just imagine what we would face if Iran became the major influence in this region. As far as H.W. Bush, our original intentions were never to topple the Iraqi government, but only to liberate Kuwait from their occupation and destroy their war making capabilities to prevent further incursions. Things we did better than any other liberating force in history. Our orders were never to do what we have done now. We accomplished our mission the first time. End of story.

To address other points, most of what y'all are hearing is from the media, some of the most liberal anti-Bush agencies in the world. Plain and simple, our media does everything possible to make our president look like an idiot. I'm not saying he's the smartest president ever, but he's not as dumb as the media portrays him to be. Truth be told, most Iraqis are grateful for what we have done. They suffered for three decades under a torturous regime that was responsible for the deaths of over 250,000 of its own citizens. Why? Because of religious differences, the same reasons why most attacks are carried out today. The Taliban and AQI (Al-Qaeda in Iraq) aren't responsible for all of the attacks. The vast majority are carried out by sectarian militias who attack other religious groups. Yes, soldiers are wounded and killed in some attacks, but we were not forced to join. We did so on our own accord, fully knowing that we would end up over here. We are a 100% volunteer force, so people need to keep that in mind. Come on over, it's not really as bad as the media wants you to believe.

Another thing that gets on my nerves is that the media wants you to believe that there are hundreds of thousands of jihadists just itching to set themselves off. That's not true. There are far fewer then you've been led to believe. These guys don't have the numbers of volunteers they once had. Know why? They're all dead. So now, these low-lifes have gone so far as to use women and children to carry suicide vests. Most of the time, they bribe the women because in this society, if you're a widow, you're worthless. They approach them with offerings of money for their families and ending their misery of being an unwanted woman. Other times, they will kidnap men and threaten to kill their entire family if they don't blow themselves up. Yes, the jihadists are sick, evil people, but most of the average citizens aren't like that.

Now, in regards to WMD, let me pose a question: what are WMD? Most people automatically think of nuclear arms, totally ignoring chemical and biological weapons. How do you think Saddam's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, former Iraqi Defense Minister, got the nickname "Chemical Ali?" Iraq, before both Desert Storm and OIF, produced huge quantities of bio/chem weapons, most of which are believed to have been shipped to Iran before OIF kicked off. Were they attempting to build a nuke? Maybe, maybe not, but they did know how to produce other WMD. A perfect example of the effectiveness of their chemical weapons is the Al-Anfal campaign, conducted between 1986 and 1989 but which peaked in 1988, during the eighth year of the Iran-Iraq war. And who were the intended targets of this campaign? Iraqi citizens, namely the Kurds. Saddam launched the campaign against the Kurdish minority in northern Iraq, resulting in the deaths of nearly 200,000 people. There were even concentration camps set up to deal with the Kurds that had been captured, and much like the Nazis forty years earlier, the Sunnis did the same to the Kurds (Ba'ath party members were mostly Sunni). Don't jump to conclusions by saying that Iraq didn't have any WMD just because we didn't find any nukes. And it's WMD, not WMDs. WMDs says weapons of mass destructions.

If we leave Iraq as the Democrats want us to, it will leave a serious power vacuum in this region. Afghanistan isn't what it used to be, so they can't really flex their muscle. So who does that leave? Iran. Iran might not have nukes (yet) like Pakistan, but they are right next door, have a completely capable fighting force, and is a Shi'ite majority. Iraq is mostly Shi'ite, and with that, the balance of power could shift in Iran's favor overnight if we pull out. Do you want Iran to be stronger than they are? Do you want Iran to take control of the oil fields in eastern Iraq? One can only imagine that if Iran could secure a stable power base and majority support in Iraq that they would soon look to the south, at their Sunni neighbors in Kuwait. What do you think would happen then? It doesn't take a scholar to figure that one out. If you think oil prices are ridiculous now, just wait until we are forced to pull out of Iraq and the above happens. All I can say is either get ready for $10 a gallon gas or to say goodbye to internal combustion engines.

The thing to remember about this operation is that we have made tremendous strides forward, Iraq is becoming stronger every day, and we all volunteered to serve during a time of war.

[Howdy]

You've got that backwards. Iran will invade Iraq, and that's why we're still here. We don't want Iran to be the bull in the China shop over here. If you think we have problems now, just imagine what we would face if Iran became the major influence in this region. As far as H.W. Bush, our original intentions were never to topple the Iraqi government, but only to liberate Kuwait from their occupation and destroy their war making capabilities to prevent further incursions. Things we did better than any other liberating force in history. Our orders were never to do what we have done now. We accomplished our mission the first time. End of story.

To address other points, most of what y'all are hearing is from the media, some of the most liberal anti-Bush agencies in the world. Plain and simple, our media does everything possible to make our president look like an idiot. I'm not saying he's the smartest president ever, but he's not as dumb as the media portrays him to be. Truth be told, most Iraqis are grateful for what we have done. They suffered for three decades under a torturous regime that was responsible for the deaths of over 250,000 of its own citizens. Why? Because of religious differences, the same reasons why most attacks are carried out today. The Taliban and AQI (Al-Qaeda in Iraq) aren't responsible for all of the attacks. The vast majority are carried out by sectarian militias who attack other religious groups. Yes, soldiers are wounded and killed in some attacks, but we were not forced to join. We did so on our own accord, fully knowing that we would end up over here. We are a 100% volunteer force, so people need to keep that in mind. Come on over, it's not really as bad as the media wants you to believe.

Another thing that gets on my nerves is that the media wants you to believe that there are hundreds of thousands of jihadists just itching to set themselves off. That's not true. There are far fewer then you've been led to believe. These guys don't have the numbers of volunteers they once had. Know why? They're all dead. So now, these low-lifes have gone so far as to use women and children to carry suicide vests. Most of the time, they bribe the women because in this society, if you're a widow, you're worthless. They approach them with offerings of money for their families and ending their misery of being an unwanted woman. Other times, they will kidnap men and threaten to kill their entire family if they don't blow themselves up. Yes, the jihadists are sick, evil people, but most of the average citizens aren't like that.

Now, in regards to WMD, let me pose a question: what are WMD? Most people automatically think of nuclear arms, totally ignoring chemical and biological weapons. How do you think Saddam's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, former Iraqi Defense Minister, got the nickname "Chemical Ali?" Iraq, before both Desert Storm and OIF, produced huge quantities of bio/chem weapons, most of which are believed to have been shipped to Iran before OIF kicked off. Were they attempting to build a nuke? Maybe, maybe not, but they did know how to produce other WMD. A perfect example of the effectiveness of their chemical weapons is the Al-Anfal campaign, conducted between 1986 and 1989 but which peaked in 1988, during the eighth year of the Iran-Iraq war. And who were the intended targets of this campaign? Iraqi citizens, namely the Kurds. Saddam launched the campaign against the Kurdish minority in northern Iraq, resulting in the deaths of nearly 200,000 people. There were even concentration camps set up to deal with the Kurds that had been captured, and much like the Nazis forty years earlier, the Sunnis did the same to the Kurds (Ba'ath party members were mostly Sunni). Don't jump to conclusions by saying that Iraq didn't have any WMD just because we didn't find any nukes. And it's WMD, not WMDs. WMDs says weapons of mass destructions.

If we leave Iraq as the Democrats want us to, it will leave a serious power vacuum in this region. Afghanistan isn't what it used to be, so they can't really flex their muscle. So who does that leave? Iran. Iran might not have nukes (yet) like Pakistan, but they are right next door, have a completely capable fighting force, and is a Shi'ite majority. Iraq is mostly Shi'ite, and with that, the balance of power could shift in Iran's favor overnight if we pull out. Do you want Iran to be stronger than they are? Do you want Iran to take control of the oil fields in eastern Iraq? One can only imagine that if Iran could secure a stable power base and majority support in Iraq that they would soon look to the south, at their Sunni neighbors in Kuwait. What do you think would happen then? It doesn't take a scholar to figure that one out. If you think oil prices are ridiculous now, just wait until we are forced to pull out of Iraq and the above happens. All I can say is either get ready for $10 a gallon gas or to say goodbye to internal combustion engines.

The thing to remember about this operation is that we have made tremendous strides forward, Iraq is becoming stronger every day, and we all volunteered to serve during a time of war.

SALUTE!!!!
Howdy

[scrawny]

WOW there is some propaganda being believed on this site!!

did you know that most of the hijackers from 9/11 were from saudi arabia?? so maybe we should go in there and kick some butt?

how bout the fact that this whole war is illegal?? this administration went to war without a declaration from congress which is completely AGAINST the constitution.

i saw goat say something about us following the roman way of doing things. it is sad that we havent learned anything from them, first there money fell, then their infastructure...the dollar isnt worth chit anymore, and we have bridges falling down in this country.

imagine the economic growth that the US would have if we brought all of our men and women home so they could spend their money in OUR country, instead of maintaining our growing empire?

big change is coming in a big way, i just hope some of you wake up and start using YOUR brain instead of believing what the talking heads on TV tell you....

[The Goat]

eh scrawny...technically the war isn't illegal. the mobilization of troops into a foreign power for war is perfectly legal, if the initial force is not over a select number of troops.

as far as the economy...this is actually nothing drastic to be honest with you. a recession is natural after so many years of growth.

another thing, the hegemonic prophecy. the most powerful nation in the world will eventually fall. look at history, no one maintains their empire forever. it's very likely china will be the next hegemon, with their near unprecedented growth.

[Billy Golightly]

I'm about a 100% sure I remember the president signing a declaration declaring, for legal reasons that the war was over. And last I remember, the house and congress both passed legislation allowing the military movement. Whether the pretenses changed or not, to me, is not relevent. They authorized it, so you can't put it all on Bushs shoulders like he called up the pentagon and said hey I want 250,000 troops in iraq by next week.

[hinddee29]

How I feel. Make the place a glass parking lot and put in a walmart.
It's the only it's going to stop. These hellens have been fighting before christ
walked the planet.
I wonder how it would be now if Hitler had his way with the middle east. Could even he and his idiots taken them out??
Legal or illegal I don't think there is anything legal about war.

Fact is Bush said in his first speech well will take out anyone who supports terrorism. Well they have provided safe harbor, food, weapons, training. That alone is enough cause. Did they have Bio weapons. You bet your ass they did.
Can't find them now, but there is records to show they did. Someone has them.
I feel will use them in the years to come.
I have trained to fight in this kind of enviroment. I pray to god or who ever the hell you believe in someone finds these missing weapons. It's VERY scary stuff.

I didn't get to go because of an injury I didn't know I had. Every day I think about
our troops in harms way. I have a big hole in my heart for the let down that I can't go do my part. I would be more than happy to give my very last dollar to give them one more bullet!!!

No one cares about us. I think we shouldn't care about them. Bring them all
home. Lock the borders. Kick the illegals out. Make everyone that turns 18 serve
at least one year in the armed forces. Build more weapons, more of everything
and wait. That way everyone that don't know what they are talking about can see what happens when the whole world is at our borders wanting to take us out.

To my brothers and sister I say HOOHA!!!!!!!!

[Howdy]

I agree you can't believe what you see on the news. Why? Because negativity sells and positive stuff don't. If you just watch the news for a week you will see 99+% on there is negative. There can e 100 good things happen and only 1 bad thing, and the bad thing will be the only thing shown.

I support the Troops, and I understand the war, but I can't say that I like it ( the war ). If it was possible my arse would be there and I would stay until we are done there. But I can't for medical reasons ( I have tried for years to join ). I show my support for the Troops here at home and I do what I can to help them out on the home front. I know a few families with a spouse over there, and I help those families when ever I find out they need it.


I personally feel: USA Love it or Leave it. If you want change, then you need to get active in doing things to make it better. Sitting around complaining about it does NOTHING to make it better.
Howdy

[scrawny]

of course they had WMD....we sold them to them!! we didnt seem to care about it when they were using them against the evil communists. isnt china a communist state? i thought we all were taught that that wouldnt work in the new world now they are going to be the next hegemon?? the only reason is because our govt let all those jobs go over there. why did we have such good "growth" before this economic turndown??? wasnt because we were plundering a country was it??

i will wait for the day when the "whole world is at our borders" you dont think the worlds most armed country could defend itself against what ever the world could throw at us?? sounds like we should be a little more confident.

just think if we had a country building bases here? wouldnt we be pissed? in our own revolution the insurgents were called patriots, ppl who were proud of their country that wanted to fight for it.

i just wish someone would fight for the US these days...our govt. sure as hell isnt.

[SpeedBump]

I see Black Helicopters...........:rolleyes:


69HemiGTX, thanks for your service (and same to the countless others who have, and still are serving) and I just wanted to say, from a former service member, I agree with you and btw, ignore the fools, they'll eventually be proven wrong by history. They ALWAYS are.

[hinddee29]

i just wish someone would fight for the US these days...our govt. sure as hell isnt.

Well then take up arms then. Form your unit. See how far you get. Think it was
a little easier back the to fight the gov. don't you think?
Why wait for someone to do it. You sound like you have all the answers
Why don't you take charge of it then.
There are thousand fighting for US right this second. So you can sit on your computer to complain. Let's say together I know you know how. How
about a Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I bet you just still complain!

[chris200x]

You guys wanna know what really bugs me? (probably not but I'm gonna tell ya's anyways:lol: :w00t: )

.. Is all these horror stories I hear and see on the news of those soilders that are getting shot up over there and our goverment isn't taking care of them fairly. Most of them are getting hobbled for life and I think they and their family should be fairly compensate for the rest of their lives. We give our tax dollars to crack heads on welfare but we cant take care of our soilders that were injured or mamed fighting for our own country. :eek: :wondering

I know we have alot of serviceman on these forums... Anyone here have any first hand knowlegde of what I'm talking about? or are these stories just fabricated or blown outta porportian just like most everything else were hear in the media?

There goes my blood pressure!!! :mad: :rolleyes:

[dickieg89]

I was fortunate enough on a recent business trip to meet an individual who at a business lunch told how awful this country is. He is also a polish citizen and the u.s government investigated him for supporting terrorism because of his bank account activity. I left the lunch, see was such the un-informed turd i couldn't stand he hear his nonsense. Long story short, if you don't like it, leave.

p.s he looked like animal from the muppets with a comb-over.

[hinddee29]

You guys wanna know what really bugs me? (probably not but I'm gonna tell ya's anyways:lol: :w00t: )

.. Is all these horror stories I hear and see on the news of those soilders that are getting shot up over there and our goverment isn't taking care of them fairly. Most of them are getting hobbled for life and I think they and their family should be fairly compensate for the rest of their lives. We give our tax dollars to crack heads on welfare but we cant take care of our soilders that were injured or mamed fighting for our own country. :eek: :wondering

I know we have alot of serviceman on these forums... Anyone here have any first hand knowlegde of what I'm talking about? or are these stories just fabricated or blown outta porportian just like most everything else were hear in the media?

There goes my blood pressure!!! :mad: :rolleyes:


Now I don't know how much is true and isn't. I know from my problem which I still
need to get the VA to look at it.
See in active duty I did and what they thought was twisted my ankle very badly.
Well I couldn't get anyone to look into it anymore than that. This was years before 2001. After that I would just fall down if I didn't plant my foot right.
Well going to see a specialist and stress x-rays. I tore tendends and crap.
I was in the Guard by the time I found this out. They said it's an Army problem they don't have to fix it. So the only way to get it fixed is the VA I guess.
I already get 10% from them for nerve damage to my hand. 115 a month is what
it comes out to. With my ankle might be 20 or 30%. Realy when I look at it
there are far more people worse of than my poor ankle.
Yes the sevice men and weman don't get the pay or health care they should.
I'm not saying it's not good. Really the whole time I was on Active I had no complants. They were great with my wife and kids. I'm just saying it can always be better for everyone.

As much as it burn you butt chris and many others . The vets that fought or severed or serving always have fought for the very rights they give up.
That's what DAV's,VFW,American Legon are fighting for. Giving these vets the help they need.

[The Goat]

scrawny...china is a communist state as far as government goes, as far as economics it's capitalist....hell it's probably more capitalistic than we are.

now if we want to start another thread on just the politics and philosophy of it all...I can go for days talking about how everything marx predicted is happening and that the only thing he didn't consider is the power of "the american dream" that dream will drive people to work harder and harder against hopeless odds. and rather than looking at the millions who failed...they see the few who succeeded.

hindee actually has an idea...a friend of mine is one of those who are obsessed with nazi history...he's in the army and constantly says that dealing with the middle east would require a certain degree of evil. hitler's tactics and psychosis would have likely ended it. I always have to pose the question... at what cost?

[200xkwit]

this "war" is about politions making money through kbr and holliburton.. and i but those names in lowercase letters for a reason.. if you ever seen then movie im talking about you would understand. i have a few buddies over there right now.... matter fact id be over there right now if they would let me .... but thats a dif story on its own ... sobs

[scrawny]

Well then take up arms then. Form your unit. See how far you get. Think it was
a little easier back the to fight the gov. don't you think?
Why wait for someone to do it. You sound like you have all the answers
Why don't you take charge of it then.
There are thousand fighting for US right this second. So you can sit on your computer to complain. Let's say together I know you know how. How
about a Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I bet you just still complain!


you mean like the Posse Comitatus?? sorry, every one of these organizations gets shut down by the govt because of the fear that they(our govt.) have of this ideal spreading.

this is EXACTLY what our fore fathers did in the revolution, we are still proud of them today for the way they acted towards the british imperialists. isnt this the same dilemma we face today?

so who wants to be a patriot?

BTW i support everyone that signs up for the defense of this country even though our imperialist's in DC rarely use them in this way, its usually for an offensive gain if only for the talking heads in DC.

WHOS COMPLAINING?? i am stating what i percieve as fact, that is what open FORUM is all about.

here you go goat..."leaving to the Executive the power to repel sudden attacks" thats right from the document that makes this country so great. wouldnt you agree that there is a better way to aproach this other than the way the current (and other) administration('s) has (have)? the reason why they hate us is cause we(our govt.) are over there trying to tell them how to live their lives, installing/removing leaders as we please. that, my friend, isnt very democratic....

[69HemiGTX]

the reason why they hate us is cause we(our govt.) are over there trying to tell them how to live their lives....

If anyone believes any propaganda, it's you my friend. I apologize for calling you out, but it seems like you watch CNN and MSNBC a little too much. The truth is the Iraqi people are very happy that we toppled the Ba'athist regime. Again, the majority of attacks are done by religious groups against others, not AQI against us. If AQI does attack anyone, it's usually the Iraqis. Every Iraqi I have talked to has said that they are happy that Saddam is gone. Tell me this, does the guy to my left look angry to you? Until you are here, in country, and have face-to-face contact with these people, you'll never know the truth, especially if you get your information from the TV.

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL546/2314539/18550160/301096860.jpg

BTW, the guy to my right isn't an insurgent. He's in the Iraqi army, and they all cover their faces for pictures. As far as I know, it's SOP for them.

[scrawny]

i was talking about the reasons the saudi hijackers gave for attacking us on our soil 9/11.

i would love to talk to the iraqis to see there point of view of the situation, both today and when the CIA propped hussein up in the late '50s to assassinate the then prime minister of iraq Abdul Karim Qassim (of which he failed and got wounded himself in the attack), and again in '79 during the iran/iraq war.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Saddam_rumsfeld.jpg
rummy and saddam chummin in '80:confused:

[Chevy200s]

Exactly!

That said, however, I'm for a complete investigation into what REALLY has our troops over there....bleeding and dying......and it sure as H*LL ain't 9/11, terrorism, or WMDs. I have my own beliefs as to what the real motivation was for the move on Iraq(under false pretenses), while the effort in Afganistan and AQ(the real terrorists) was comparitively small and still incomplete.

Good points and its cool to want to know more information about something, but as far as it "sure as hell not aint 9/11, terrorism or WMDs", I wouldnt be so sure about that. I'm not about to start stating points and facts, I'm just going to ask if anyone has some time to read and is up for a good book, check out Saddam's Secrets, by General Georges Sada. In it he describes exactly what happened with the WMDs, how 9/11 and other terrorist acts are DIRECTLY connected to the GOVERNMENT of Iraq prior to operation Iraqi Freedom. He also praises the Americans for the work being done, thanks the American people for their sacrifices, specifically addressing mothers and fathers who have lost their children. He tells them Iraq will be forever in debt for their sacrifice, and asks them to remain there until the job is done. He basically describes what horrors Saddam did, why it was necessary that someone finally put an end to it, and all the good that is happening now.

He also gives a detailed account of how the weapons were flown into Syria aboard unmarked civil airliners when the adqeduct collapsed and all surrounding nations came to its aid.

Keep in mind he was a top general for Saddam so he probably knows a thing or two, and its nice to hear something thats not trying to sell newspapers or catch TV viewers. Good book, check it out

As far as "the real terrorists in Afghanistan", I'm sorry man thats just totally innaccurate, there are many terrorists in the world and trying to say that ones that happen to reside in one country are more "real" than others is crazy. But I do agree, its good to find out all the information you can, I just think you should wait until you get as much as possible from all sides before making judgements and opinions. Oh well, just my two cents, and lately even that is more than I can afford haha. have fun debating

[Havoxx]

Good points and its cool to want to know more information about something, but as far as it "sure as hell not aint 9/11, terrorism or WMDs", I wouldnt be so sure about that. I'm not about to start stating points and facts, I'm just going to ask if anyone has some time to read and is up for a good book, check out Saddam's Secrets, by General Georges Sada. In it he describes exactly what happened with the WMDs, how 9/11 and other terrorist acts are DIRECTLY connected to the GOVERNMENT of Iraq prior to operation Iraqi Freedom. He also praises the Americans for the work being done, thanks the American people for their sacrifices, specifically addressing mothers and fathers who have lost their children. He tells them Iraq will be forever in debt for their sacrifice, and asks them to remain there until the job is done. He basically describes what horrors Saddam did, why it was necessary that someone finally put an end to it, and all the good that is happening now.

He also gives a detailed account of how the weapons were flown into Syria aboard unmarked civil airliners when the adqeduct collapsed and all surrounding nations came to its aid.

Keep in mind he was a top general for Saddam so he probably knows a thing or two, and its nice to hear something thats not trying to sell newspapers or catch TV viewers. Good book, check it out

As far as "the real terrorists in Afghanistan", I'm sorry man thats just totally innaccurate, there are many terrorists in the world and trying to say that ones that happen to reside in one country are more "real" than others is crazy. But I do agree, its good to find out all the information you can, I just think you should wait until you get as much as possible from all sides before making judgements and opinions. Oh well, just my two cents, and lately even that is more than I can afford haha. have fun debating

I do agree, and as for the terrorists, the fact is, they come from all races, religions, and backgrounds, fact is, it's just some sort of superiority complex, maybe if they had trikes they wouldn't be so bad :D.

However, that being said, I don't think the US handled the terrorist deal the proper way, I don't believe an act of terrorism should have been grounds for a war. I guess the good thing out of this is that they will be a democracy, if they aren't already(Haven't been too current). And instead of them killing our soldiers, were training theirs, and they're killing each-other. I know that sounds a bit cold-blooded, but it keeps them away from us.

Though, I hope the president in 09 brings our guys home, I have friends over there as well, and it's no joke, 6 years is long enough.

[Dirtcrasher]

I'm very glad I brought this up. It is an OPEN forum as Scrawny said and it's good to see both sides.

Lots of us feel that they hate us being there, this is costing us billions and we don't want to hear of any more guys getting killed that just had a baby.

At least anyone who views this topic has a chance to get to hear both pros and cons and a report from a soldier that is there right now.

To him and his fellow soldiers, I say THANK YOU!! very much for serving your country. Many of you have no choice but to follow orders....

[Billy Golightly]

Has anyone read those 2 links I posted to the dispatches on Michael Yons website?

[wad]

Well im in the UK and were loosing our soldiers aswell as you guys and its a very sad thing to see it all the time on the TV and in the press, After 911 the world saw how extreme these terorists can be, I belive that something needs to be done but as for what im not really sure, I think WAR was inevitable and lets face it at that time everyone wanted WAR against these people but were they the right people we were looking for???
I think its time for the troops to come home in the USA and over here in the UK but i belive that a lot of this comes down to the oil in the middle east.
I know your economy is feeling the problems because we are over here aswell and when the USA gets a cold we get it aswell.
I love my country but im a big fan of America because lets face it i would probaly be speaking German if it wasnt for the USA during WW2 even tho you was a little late lol
There was a lot of talk over here about the USA building missile basis over here and i for one would be happy with that as were just a tiny island and it wouldnt take much to wipe us all out. So more defence could only be a good thing.

So thats my thoughts and i hope ive not upset anyone.

[The Goat]

they say the only constant in the world of politics is that both Britain and the U.S. would throw themselves in front of a train for the other.

pity more of the world, and more people aren't like that.

[scrawny]

heres another thing to think about:

it is estimated that the war has cost the US some $500 billion if you divide that with the current population of the US which is somewhere around 300 million ppl.... it has cost every man, woman, AND child $1600 dollars.

[Billy Golightly]

Cheap price to pay to go towards a nuke not being detonated in a big city or another plane flown into a high rise :D

[scrawny]

you dont think we could defend against some 3rd world country if we stacked our borders with the EXTREMELY technologic militaries???WE SHOT AN EFFEN' SATALITE OUT OF THE SKY for cripes sakes! maybe we should spend that money on our VERY porus boarders to garuntee that what you said NEVER happens. not dilly dallying around 10,000miles away.

[Chevy200s]

Cheap price to pay to go towards a nuke not being detonated in a big city or another plane flown into a high rise :D

took the words out of my mouth man

[Dirtcrasher]

As crazy as it sounds and it will NEVER happen but,

Shut the borders down!! No one in and no one out, if you came from another country and your gonna miss your relatives and friends - go home. Make everything in the US, sell everything in the US and drill for oil or other fuel sources in the US. This solves the problem of our jobs being extinguished due to outsourcing, allows us to control our fuel costs and if a terrorist can't come in from another country, it's allot harder to hide while your attempting to terrorize people in there own country.

The world is a mess, worse than just the IRAQ problem. People are hateful, people take a life without a care, people are POS.

Unless you have the income to have your child in a good educational system, you better keep a short leash on them, or the trend will continue and get worse..............

[The Goat]

easy now dirt, I like to travel a little too much for you to go all soviet russia on me. lol.

[icp4life162005]

I skipped the first part myself...... www.zeitgeistmovie.com and google Loose Change....

[scrawny]

soveit russia? or a nuclear attack? thats a tough one...

i am watching the vid life16...WOW, that is an i opener! no wonder ive had to 'eff around with it shuttin off, then trying to find the spot i was watching again.

someone doesnt want us watchin...wich is EXACTLEY why we should.

[86waterpumper]

I see alot of uneducated comments in this thread. It's sort of funny that you hear people say "they" attacked us on 9/11 wow these people are from the middle east so they must be in on it too... Another conspiracy theory just like plenty of ones I have seen that say our own govt. itself staged 9/11 :lol: The simple fact of the matter is osama wasn't (and still isn't) caught and a scape goat was needed. There are plenty other terrorists around to waste ammo and time on, that have weapons of mass destruction and plenty countries to fight with, north korea for one, china and the list could continue, but it is not our job nor a very realistic outlook to police the world. It's also pretty dumb to say level the place (iraq) and make it a walmart or a ocean or whatever. There are plenty of normal people there, that aren't ready to go jihad on anyone. They don't deserve to die anymore than you or I do. I also don't see how us being at war gives someone a false sense of security that there won't be any planes fly into any buildings or any attacks. They shut down the dakar this year a desert race that has been held a long number of years, based on terrorist attacks...so terrorists are going to keep on doing their thing. The heightened homeland security was obviously a good thing, but fighting in iraq isnt going to hinder any attacks. It's about time bush got out of there, he is too stubborn to admit his mistake, as was mentioned on this thread already there has been fighting there since bible times and it will continue with or without the u.s. We certainly aren't going to turn them into a self supporting democracy, the fact that we are building permanent bases there proves that. With all that being said, I do support the troops, and feel for anyone that has lost loved ones to this or any other war, I just don't support this particular cause and I think plenty others feel the same, even if they didn't at first. Now then, who all is voting for Hussein O(s)bama? :lol:

[DixiePlowboy]

[QUOTE=Havoxx;599513]I do agree, and as for the terrorists, the fact is, they come from all races, religions, and backgrounds, fact is, it's just some sort of superiority complex, maybe if they had trikes they wouldn't be so bad :D.

However, that being said, I don't think the US handled the terrorist deal the proper way, I don't believe an act of terrorism should have been grounds for a war. I guess the good thing out of this is that they will be a democracy, if they aren't already(Haven't been too current). And instead of them killing our soldiers, were training theirs, and they're killing each-other. I know that sounds a bit cold-blooded, but it keeps them away from us. QUOTE]

Evil lurks in every corner of the globe. I didn't mean to imply that Afghanistan is the only place or the only haven for such beasts, only that we embarked on a mission to eliminate who/what we were told were directly reponsibile for 9/11 ....then shortly thereafter invaded another nation before the first job was complete. It's still incomplete(the "hunt" for Bin Laden....former CIA asset during the Soviet/Afghan War).

I didn't just start pondering this issue with the first post in this thread. I've been studying military history, political science, etc.... for more years than I can count right off hand. I don't form my opinion from CNN, Fox, or even people on the ground in Iraq(though their viewpint is CERTAINLY valuable and have my deepest(!) respect....it's kinda like trying to create a topographical map of 50,000 square miles of mountains and forests while only standing in one ravine). Youtube is full of replays of politicians/cabinet members going on record with the "causes" of this military action.....clips I'm sure many of them wish would go away.

There is also hushed evidence that the Iraq action was planned before 9/11.

I don't expect to change anyone's way of thinking. I only posted my opinion on the first page and on this one. I may looked upon as a "tinfoil hat" wearing nut if I repeated everything that I believe, just as some "normal" people in this country would be considered "sleeping sheep" by some of the Founding Fathers of this nation. No doubt there are extremists on both sides of the "war" issue.....it's just that the "extreme party line toters", the "my country/government right or wrong", "support the president no matter what" crowd....don't get their fair share of recognition as one extreme. That's not the sort of men that created this country, but they(the above described) are the only ones that are considered "patriotic".

Peculiar.

[scrawny]

imagine if some huge story would break things WIDE open in DC? a scenario where the administration were all caught with their hands in the cookie jar?

funny the ppl who tell you they are defending "our" way of life actually put it at the most risk too...effers.