God/Science and Religion [Archive]

NOS_350X

06-24-2003, 02:21 AM

NOS 350x,

manson sucks, his girlfriend Dita is where it's at LOL

also, you are destroying my faith in the california educational system LMAO

nales is spelled nails, there should be their, meens is means, etc.

for further tips ask jb what his old signature was :P

california has an educationla system?? i dun know that
i have no idea who mansons girlfriend is i dont follow him just love his songs

and about that religon thing i'm athiest i see religon as a big story for people to belive that there is a big trike in the sky (a better place) than earth the lesser the quality of life the stronger religon gets its just peoples creative side thinkin that there has to be more to life since its so crappy no i feel like my life is good and i dont need to give my money to some guy that stands up on sundays because a book was written by people thousands of years ago with a creative side and now they have millions of followers

RideRed03

06-24-2003, 03:30 AM

Its called faith......and the person asking for money prolly isnt spending it on his trike......sure there is always science to prove different theorys....isnt god great for creating the people to prove those theorys?? to give us the ability to have Choice?? You have all the right to think whatever you want to, because that is a gift.....unfortunately u will never be able to open the gift fully without God.......you have to realize how amazing life is (not crappy, just crappy people ;)) And then ask yourself if this was just created by man and science or something greater than we can comprehend.....Science is the only other thing "created" to give meaning to "life"("without god").....Meaning is what man desires.....No one likes to think they have no control over anything.....but they dont....not in the end........But then again that is your own decision...and Choice.....Unfortunately we all think we can prove everything and there is always an answer.....but thats why we have faith (trusting something u dont understand).....and for "Religion".....God came before religion....manly power created religion.....there are so many.....but god is theonly one who can show you what is true and he will as soon as you let him......dont let people who are false in thier beliefs blurr your reality on what is true.....there is a devil......and he has your number.......NOW its YOUR choice.....thats why my choice to say what i think shouldnt offend you......only show another side....

BTW its not just a book...it is The Bible no one can strip it of its name....have you read it?
Josh

J.D.

06-24-2003, 10:26 AM

WHAT THE HELL :shock: I didn't create this post. Anyways to reply to my own ghost topic, I'm like this: I believe in God, I believe in Jesus. I have already disproved the "evolution" theory, because ONE higher being had to create that crap to set it off. I consider myself a Christian, believing in Christs name, but I find it very hard to believe any Bible. It's been around for 2,000 years, translated only God knows how many times, and even with the NIV vs. the King James, look at how different they are! The NIV takes things from the KJV and just twists and turns them around!! I respect everybody for their decisions, no matter how wrong they are, but I still cannot see how you can't believe in a higher being(GOD), and Jesus was "scientifically proved" to be living at the time the Bible stories occured, sooooo.....why not just be like me? Believe he's there, but don't believe the Bible. That's just me, no hard feeling meant, I'm not prejudice towards anybody. Peace.

Joel85350X

06-24-2003, 11:54 AM

The long and short of it is...we are given the freedom to believe what we want. Whether we believe in budda, Christ, or nothing at all. It will always concern a person when someone around them does not feel the same way they do about religion and their lifestyle, but harping them about it and losing a friendship is not the right thing to do.

TimSr

06-24-2003, 12:17 PM

"Faith" is believing in what you cannot prove.

A "theory" is someones educated guess. A theory is not proof. If it were proven, it would no longer be a theory but rather would be fact. "The theory of evolution, the big bang, bacteria forming different organisms, and stuff like that" are all theories which cannot be proven any more than the "theory" of creation by a higher being. Belief in any of these theories is a matter of faith.

A man called Jesus walked the earth 2000 years ago and managed to leave a powerful enough impression that he is still a huge influenece on the world today. That is a historical fact just as proveable as the existance of the Roman Empire, which cannot be denied. Believing this was no ordinary man, and in the words he spoke is a matter of faith. The Bible is a historical record, which does exist, and most of the time periods can even be verified through "science". How one interprets the Bible, and what one believes from the Bible is a matter of faith.

"Are you saying that we are missing something in life??" When our lives are good, we dont rely on our faith nearly so much as when things are not going well. It has been "scientifically proven" that people of faith handle tragedy and loss much better than those without faith. People of faith have a much lower suicide rate. With faith comes hope which is the only cure for despair.

70 or 80 years on earth is not even measureable against eternity. Faith is not about the insignificant 70 or 80 years we spend on this earth. Faith is about how we hope to spend the rest of eternity. If the atheists are right, no one will ever know it. If the believers are right, we will all know it.

"No one knows what happens after death" It is strictly a matter of faith to believe that we will do more than rot in the ground. This faith is based on the belief that many people have in that historical record that says this Jesus guy walked out of a tomb 3 days after he died, hung around with his buddies giving instructions for continuation of his work, and then ascended into heaven. Science proves that our bodies will rot in the ground. Science has never been able to figure out what happens with that energy inside it, that we call life. Its takes just as much faith to believe that it dies with the body as it does to believe it leaves the body and continues to exist elsewhere.

One cannot prove that God exists any more than anyone can prove He does not. Not even everyone who met this Jesus fellow was convinced. Many rejected Him, and even hated Him enough to execute Him by crucifixion. I can only say that I know with certainty in my own mind who this guy was, and whether or not God exists but I cannot prove it. Its a matter of faith.

Billy Golightly

06-24-2003, 12:18 PM

I shoudla replied to this topic too, but I split these posts off of the music thread and made a new topic. Yours was just the first one Goku.

I guess i will "Spare everyone" of my thoughts and beleifs.

Billy Golightly

06-24-2003, 12:42 PM

Good post TimSr, maybe I will reply afterall.

I'm a hardcore Baptist that has been raised on "Southern" core values mixed in with Baptist religion. Infact my New King James version Bible is about a foot away from me right now. I beleive in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy spirit. I believe the Godhead created the entire universe and everything in it, and that it will all at sometime end. I believe in Heaven as well as hell. Your going one way or the other no matter what you think, theres no inbetween. I believe that no matter you have done, when you repent to God and accept the fact that he is the true God and creator of the earth, you are forgiven. Obviously we are not perfect people and will make mistakes, but God expects you to do your very best and even better then you think you can at being in his perfect image.

You say that Science cannot prove that God is true,because we cannot see him, feel him, touch him, or hear him physicly. The same could be said for your brain. I can't see, touch, smell, or hear your brain. How do I know you have one. You have faith in the fact that Science has proved people have brains when their dead, when they can touch, see, hear, and smell them. But they cannot do so when your living, Why is it so hard to have Faith in God that your soul works the same way? Your soul is there when your living all the time, just like your brain. But only when your dead will you be able to actually "experience it".

Thats my reply to people when they tell me God doesn't exist because they cannot experience him. Obviously people will find flaws with the comparison but I believe it makes a pretty good point.

I really don't want this to turn into an arguement. It would be nice if this could be civily debated, but we will see how it turns out.

F7Firecat

06-24-2003, 01:30 PM

I too am a believer in the higher power (my wife & kids are also). To me the laws of evolution make no sence if we all evolved from apes why do the current apes not evolve into walking, talking, human beings? When you are a true athiest you should not celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ) & you should also not celebrate Easter (the ressurection). This will be a touchy subject no matter where you bring it up. Everyone is entitled to their opinion it`s our right. Not being argumentitive just my 2 cents

Kilborg

06-24-2003, 03:17 PM

No. Thats all I have to say.

wanta250r

06-24-2003, 03:42 PM

Damn firecat you got a lot of sleds. shock

ATC crazy

06-24-2003, 07:02 PM

You say that Science cannot prove that God is true,because we cannot see him, feel him, touch him, or hear him physicly. The same could be said for your brain. I can't see, touch, smell, or hear your brain.

We can go to the Hospital where you can see, touch, smell, and hear it. I can't spread the clouds and see, touch, smell, or hear this so called "god" can I?

Yes, there is proof that "jesus" was around at the time...BUT does that mean that he did those so called "magical feats" that he supposidly(sp.) did? NO. For all I know he could've been a rapist or muderer. According to The Discovery Channel, the bible was found in a cave by a small boy who was looking for his small sheep. As for who wrote it....It was probably a bunch of teens with nothing better to do then write down imagined stories that they made up one night by the campfire. This was during the Dark/Middle ages so life was trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro anyways...The people would believe ANYTHING in hope that their lives would inprove...so I think they've just been brain washed with these ideas over the thousands of years.

Personally, I think my life is better w/o all that religion stuff. I don't have to worry about sins, or making them up, wasting my money to the churches who steal it anyways (at least around here), and I get to stay home on Sundays to watch the race and ride.

Oh...And one more interesting fact. "jesus" was supposidly (sp.) nailed to the cross at the palms right......WELL, The bones/tendons/muscles in you're hand are not strong enough to support the body. Don't believe me....Discovery Channel

Dude, ATCcrazy, I just realised I hit the edit button instead of "Quote" when I clicked on your post, and I thought I was making a new post, and I over wrote everything you posted with my post. I'm totally sorry and I SWEAR TO GOD it was an Honest mistake. No BS, I really screwed up, and I know now your going to think I did it to keep people from reading your post but I didn't. I tried to put back in what I remembered seeing Its not all of it but its some of it. Again I'm sorry and I should have watched what I was doing. Give an idiot the power to edit peoples post and look what happens... :rolleyes:

Kilborg

06-24-2003, 07:24 PM

I guess I'll chime in.... (girlfriend is at work and im bored off my ass)

I'm not religious. I dont give a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro about religions...they want to believe in something, thats fine...If it makes them better people for whatever reason you do whatever you like, just don't get me involved. I'm not sure what to believe on the whole "god" subject...My logic dictates that the bible is a storybook with some real stuff thrown in for good measure. Some people got into the book a bit too much, and its now a major deal here on our planet. Sound familiar, LRON HUBBARD? Anyone who knows the real deal with old lron knows exactly how I feel...and exactly why. I'm not gonna put anyone down, but I see it as kind of a weakness to believe in something you cannot really prove (Intiuitive thinking at its best). For some, this is the kind of stuff they need to give their life some substance. Some people have faith, I guess I'm faithless. Do I know whats after the mortal plane? No...Do i honestly give a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro? No...I'm just living as it is. When I die, I die...If there is an afterlife thats great..more time to waste "livin it up".

Live free and drive...Take risks....Do trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro you don't think you ever would and don't look back. Far as I can tell you only live once, so make it worthwile somehow. Go out with a bang.

ATC crazy

06-24-2003, 07:47 PM

Thats a very good point 'Blaze.

Billy Golightly

06-24-2003, 09:00 PM

We can go to the Hospital where you can see, touch, smell, and hear it. I can't spread the clouds and see, touch, smell, or hear this so called "god" can I?

Show me a living brain that I can see, touch, smell, and hear that isn't inside someones skull with a 1/4inch of bone on it. Don't give me this "But you can look on a computer monitor and see the brainwaves" Or "You can see it in an x-ray." I can see God in the Bible just as easy as I can see a brain on some computer screen or x-ray printout.

Yes, there is proof that "jesus" was around at the time...BUT does that mean that he did those so called "magical feats" that he supposidly(sp.) did? NO. For all I know he could've been a rapist or muderer. According to The Discovery Channel, the bible was found in a cave by a small boy who was looking for his small sheep. As for who wrote it....It was probably a bunch of teens with nothing better to do then write down imagined stories that they made up one night by the campfire. This was during the Dark/Middle ages so life was trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro anyways...The people would believe ANYTHING in hope that their lives would inprove...so I think they've just been brain washed with these ideas over the thousands of years.

The middle ages? Are you saying thats when the bible was discovered, 3-400 years ago? You do understand that the Bible was not written all by one person, at one time? But several people over a course of 1000's of years. Half of the Bible, the Old Testament was written before Jesus was born. So according to our current way of keeping dates, Anything written in the Old Testament is atleast 2003 years old.

Personally, I think my life is better w/o all that religion stuff. I don't have to worry about sins, or making them up, wasting my money to the churches who steal it anyways (at least around here), and I get to stay home on Sundays to watch the race and ride.

Going to church does not save you, going to church is to praise God for what he has done, does, and will do. 10% of your weekly income seems fair enough to me that benefits the church (Gods house, and God himself) who make sure you and everyone you love wakeup the next morning.

Oh...And one more interesting fact. "jesus" was supposidly (sp.) nailed to the cross at the palms right......WELL, The bones/tendons/muscles in you're hand are not strong enough to support the body. ;) Don't believe me....Discovery Channel

Have nothing to say about that except when I see or hear from a pretty reliable source that someone gets nailed to a cross and it doesn't hold them up, will I consider it. Because as the score stands now...

Matthew 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mark 15:27 - And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

Thats at the very least 4 people that have been nailed to a cross and been held up. The Crucifixion of Christ and the two theives was not the first time it had been used. It was a very common way of executing criminals at that time. Much like hanging a criminal was back in the Western days, or even using the electric chair today.

ATC crazy

06-24-2003, 09:37 PM

Show me a living brain that I can see, touch, smell, and hear that isn't inside someones skull with a 1/4inch of bone on it.

Show me "jesus" that isn't on a painting or picture

The middle ages? Are you saying thats when the bible was discovered, 3-400 years ago?

According to my History teacher the Middle ages were years 500 and earlier (although he seems like a nut-case)

Oh...And one more interesting fact. "jesus" was supposidly (sp.) nailed to the cross at the palms right......WELL, The bones/tendons/muscles in you're hand are not strong enough to support the body. ;) Don't believe me....Discovery Channel

It was a very common way of executing criminals at that time. Much like hanging a criminal was back in the Western days, or even using the electric chair today.

I still say the bones won't support the weight...But nailes in the wrist would

MR ATC

06-24-2003, 09:56 PM

well i have a good idea of both your perspectives from 7yrs to 34 yrs i believed in one thing...the laws of mother nature...now i'm not so sure. why well i've lived a very selfish, wild and crazy lifestyle. i've done my share of "sinfull" things. i've done things that religous people would not understand and non religious peole would envy. however i had a RUDE awakaning with my recent family problems and i was sugested to read the bible. well four times later (thats how many times i've read it in 7 months) i've come to the conclusion that it is the service manual for human beings. is everything in it fact? probably not it is afterall a translation of someone elses interpitation of events. but, there was enough to convince me it has merit. reading it was like looking into my life and all the mistakes i made it told me what would happen AND THEY DID i could go on but its my own story and it may not make sense to others. is there a GOD? i don't really know. what is GOD? i don't know but i do believe there is a higher power at source. maybe GOD is really a alian species watching over us and back in the bible days they sent one represenative to speak to early man and he was a GOD in there eyes. who knows.

but i will say this in the book of genesis it talks about how earlt man lived to be up to 900yrs old after Noah no man lived over 120 yrs. well science has recently proved that early man live for severall hundreds of years...hmmm

Billy Golightly

06-24-2003, 10:30 PM

Show me "jesus" that isn't on a painting or picture

I can't, and thats my entire point. You can't show me a live brain either, but you believe you have one correct? Is this not faith in beleiving in something?

According to my History teacher the Middle ages were years 500 and earlier (although he seems like a nut-case)

The middle ages were exactly that...the middle ages. Not the Start of time till the middle...

I still say the bones won't support the weight...But nailes in the wrist would

I say we need a volunteer to prove this

Kilborg

06-24-2003, 11:44 PM

I can show you a live brain. A certain lobotimized daughter of a certain kenedy comes to mind. Just slop in some local anesthetic and get to hackin.....

Seriously though...Show you a picture of jesus? Common now...this was the beginning of anno dommini (year of your lord...i say yours because he is not mine, not to offend)...there was no technology to speak of. We had fire, some basic alchemy, basic construction..thats about it. All there was to do in these days was paint pictues, get it on with some nubile young ladies from the court..and have massive sword battles. Yep...thats about it. They hardly even read, only the rich had books for pleasure (and most of them were religious oriented). There was no real media to get literature around, besides the fact that literacy rates were pitiful in these times. Religious leaderly types were also skilled in the basic literacy we all take for granted nowadays.

I know this will churn up some stuff though....

Religion was originally meant as a method of controlling the populace, in a less brutal fashion. Having soldiers run around and cork idiotic little peasents on the head was all good and well, but it was EXPENSIVE. All but the world powers in these times were in financial trouble, even the most powerful nations could had trouble funding things. Religion not only brought people together and under one set of rules, but it also brought in money! Clearly, religion is a huge part of any culture. In most cases back in those days, it was church before state...A very clever facade. The same "states" were the ones who initiated the religion, for the benefits of the country. Religions eventually got to the point where they were, in many cases, more powerful then the nations they were designed for in the first place. Most people in this time period were DUMB. There was no real eductaion (in our sense) to speak of other then what was passed down from the generations. These people were easily motivated to jump on the bandwagon, so to speak. Generations went by, and the religion lived on. Passed down, as is the simplest of things. We are now much better equipped to make our own decisions (If this were even as little as 150 years ago I would not be saying any of this), based on fact, logic, and good old fashioned instincts. Culture and religion, as always play a part in this as well. Do I sound a bit too much like Rage against the machine? Yeah...I'll bet I do. But, these are the facts. I don't think anyone will be swapping sides just becuase of finding something like this out (if you did not know already), but it may enlighten them some. I just hate to see people so consumed by their religion to the point where they can be fanatical in their quest to the "greater good."

Oh, for the record...I am not at all religious (I think i said it already but i am again just for the hell of it). I do not prefer the term "athiest", as I have my own beliefs (which are based more solely on my life experience and logical reasoning then anything)

Kilborg

06-25-2003, 12:07 AM

One more thing...

About the nails in the cross. It all depends where the nails were. If the nails were between the index and middle finger section of the palm, it would be supported. anywhere lower then these 2 fingers and there is no support past the wrist itself. The index and middle have bones connected all the way up your forearm. You could probably hold a human up on a cross in such a way. It is obviously quite possible as some of the historical badasses preferred methods of genocide were crucifix/impalement style death. It worked for them, And I'm sure it worked for jesus and friends.

Also, take these things into account. Every picture depicted of jesus shows a malnourished, shell of a man. 75lbs maybe (He looks like a holocaust victim)? I could support that without much effort at all. Evolution and nutrition of course have made things different in the past 2003 years, but not that much. These guys did not eat healthy, if they ate at all. Considering all the malnourishment and disease that ran amuk in these times, you could say that a couple spikes through some bones would NOT hold up. Even with all the malnourishment (leading to possible weak bones), his bones probably still would have been strong enough to hold him up with a couple good spikes. You would have to have some serious osteoperosis to not be able to support your own weight on bones (presumably the strongest in your hand). Obviously we are not meant to have spikes drilled through us so we can be carted around the countryside for all to see, but I digress. Jesus was probably in his early to mid 30's, making him a fairly old man for those times. Keep in mind, most of these guys usually lived to about 40-50 tops back then. If you made it much past this you were way ahead of the game. I do think you could support someone on a crucifix, especially a little runt like christ. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong with this post, just giving some options to your thoughts and maybe opening new doors. I'm sure if someone could factually prove all this wrong, the religious community would be in an uproar. Sure, the bible is a big storybook..but there are some factual events in there, or atleast events based on fact. There were many, many people involved in writing such a book, and some of it could very well be true. There seems to have been plenty of accounts historically of jesus being crucified..I can believe that. His ressurection I take an entirely different view on, but thats another story for another day.

Now I must go. My girlfriend awaits sinful pleasures......

yamasaki1

06-25-2003, 12:16 AM

this is my first post in a while so bear with me...(this topic got to me)
where to start...first off, i'm a religious man. I believe in the bible, everything it says, the Trinity, the hole nine yards. And I personally commend you Billy for standing strong in your faith, and Bill(Mr.ATC), I'm glad to see you read what the Bible had to say, multiple times, and that you found God. About the cruixifiction(sp)thing, back then, the road going into rome was lined with literally thousands of crosses with criminals nailed with spikes through the hands. I think you are forgetting about the nail in the foot. It wasn't just the spikes in the hand holding the whole body up. And about the brain, well, lets just say it has yet to be proven(i think).

(now listen to this)Even if you don't "Believe" in God, look at Christianity as an organization. My church, has a meat canner, were meat is paid for by offerings through the church. The meat is then canned and sent to 3rd world countries were it is distributed FREE of charge. This canner goes all over the country with volunteers, so its not just a few boxes out of one church. Theres also service projects. People donate there time and skills to help clean up after disasters and to build houses, and the list goes on. So even if you don't believe in God, Christianity is still a great organization helping a lot of people in the world.

Now heres a parable(fake story with a meaning...i made some of it up and mixed it in with a story). Lets say a man, John, is listening in church and is reminded that he is to share his faith with others. So he goes to the store the next day and is in line with his items and the only register breaks, so he decideds to strike up a conversation with the man next to him and inquire about his faith. He starts talking, and realizes he actually has a lot in common with the man such as "ATV's" (had to throw that in there, lighten it up a bit:-D ). So he invites the guy to go riding some time. Well they do and they end up being friends, and the guy ends up being a christian. The day they met, the man, Say Bob, was buying some rope. He was going to go home and hang himself because his wife and kids had left him, he lost his job, and he thought nobody liked him. John saved a life that day just because of one simple christian moral.

Thats my take on the whole subject....

wanta250r

06-25-2003, 12:18 AM

I hate the discovery channel. What I hate more is people that believe everything that their teacher or television tells you. evil

PowerTrike

06-25-2003, 12:26 AM

I'm not a big religious freak by no means but, I gotta agree with HondaATC for the most part... Believe what you want; I'm not gonna screw anybody over about their beliefs. This will be my LAST post in this topic.

Kilborg

06-25-2003, 01:30 AM

wanta250r....I dont know/care if that was directed toward me, but i just would like to say just about all of the stuff i ramble on about all the time is self learned. I do a ton of reading when i wasnt off raising hell or hookin up wit da ladies (pass me a swig o' crown royal). I was brought up without any real religion, so thats the biggest influence on where i stand in the whole religion deal. like i said...i'v got my own beliefs and values just like you do with your christianity and the like. There is really no difference...I got my own little one man religion (so to speak...can you have a "religion" without a god?), and you got da whole clan o' christian funk.

NOS_350X

06-25-2003, 03:03 AM

[quote="ATC crazy"]

Oh...And one more interesting fact. "jesus" was supposidly (sp.) nailed to the cross at the palms right......WELL, The bones/tendons/muscles in you're hand are not strong enough to support the body. Don't believe me....Discovery Channel

old roman books and things like that show that its a roumor that it was in the had (modern day roumor) it was actualy in the wrists right where you would cut yourself to kill yourself

Jeb

06-25-2003, 11:18 AM

ATC Crazy - either you weren't listening or your history teacher is an f'in idiot (i'd put my money on both).
The middle ages was not year a.d. 500 and earlier. :shock: If I remember correctly, It was after the fall of rome and for the next thousand years, roughly a.d. 500 - a.d. 1500.

JohnnyBlaze - I don't know how old you are, but many times i'm impressed with your posts. I can tell that you read and interpret with your own mind. I don't neccessarily believe the way you do but I sure like the fact you think for yourself and back things up with fact.

wanta250r - Amen! But I do like the Discovery Channel, except now-a-days they have too much New Detectives and other Forensics crap which sucks to me.

HondaATC - I consider myself a man of faith. I too am Baptist. I see your point, but I also think that any local brain surgeon could invite me into his operating room to view a living persons brain and then he could put the person back together with no complications.

On religion, Again, I am a man of faith, but I have some issues with organized religion.
Somewhere in history it changed from worshiping the Lord to a power trip with a "divine" justificaiton for slaughter and control. During the middle ages it was a time where kings answered to popes, and only popes answered to God himself. In other words, their will was God's will. Corruption was abundant. The power of the church was used to install fear into the masses, plain and simple. And to keep the religious leaders wealthy, powerful, and above the law. If you spoke out against the church, or even just expressed scientific ideas, you could have been branded a heretic, just by word of mouth, and then horribly tortured into confessing you were even if you werent and then publicly executed in some horrible way that makes hanging or the electric chair look like kids play, and it was right because it was in the name of Jesus Christ. Actually, you were made an example. Mess with the church (actualy threaten the power, comfort, & wealth of the religious leaders) and you suffered the consequences. Fortunately for all of us this is not the way things are done anymore. Or all you "athiests" & scientists would be hunted down and dealt with. Hell, it might still be the middle ages even today! :-P For a good reference, research the Spanish Inquisition. Some of the most brutal acts in history were done in the name of religion.

Today I see organized religion as money and publicity, all in the name of Jesus Christ. Maybe still a little bit of power thrown in since the catholics can seem to protect child molesters high up in their ranks. The grass-roots churches and the people who attend them that live by the moral core values is what makes society work. But you can also live by these moral values without attending church every Sunday, because they are the right way to live. I think it's sad that most percieve that the higher up you go in organized religion, the more corrupt you become. When you really should be closer to God. It's organized religion's own fault for that. The old saying "power corrupts" seems double when it concerns the church.

Kilborg

06-25-2003, 01:02 PM

Ill be 18 in about a month (july 26)..I do alright for a regular streetpunk I guess. You make some good posts yourself. I was kinda wondering...is there anyone on the board with a different religion then what we see most of here in the Us? Muslim? Buddist? It would be cool seeing a muslim chick cruising around the desert on a 350x or something...

NO ONE suspects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!

ATC crazy

06-25-2003, 08:14 PM

ATC Crazy - your history teacher is an f'in idiot

Thats what I said in my initial post

You can't show me a live brain either, but you believe you have one correct? Is this not faith in beleiving in something?

Watch "ER" or "Life in the ER" and you will see a live brain being operated on. If they can replace your entire heart with a plastic pump, then they can take a look at a living brain.

About the nails in the cross. It all depends where the nails were. If the nails were between the index and middle finger section of the palm, it would be supported. anywhere lower then these 2 fingers and there is no support past the wrist itself. The index and middle have bones connected all the way up your forearm. You could probably hold a human up on a cross in such a way. It is obviously quite possible as some of the historical badasses preferred methods of genocide were crucifix/impalement style death. It worked for them, And I'm sure it worked for jesus and friends.

Well...I heard it the other way so I guess I'm up in the air about it now. Same with NOS's thing about the myth that they actually put nails in the palms.

I think you are forgetting about the nail in the foot. It wasn't just the spikes in the hand holding the whole body up.

Well since you bend at the knees, then the one at the ankles doesn't have much to support. AND, after being nailed up to the cross, in extreme pain, I don't think you would waste your energy trying to support yourself by the ankles.