Banks...auto makers....and now.... STATES?

[SYKO]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20081210/ts_csm/abellyup


discuss......:idea:

[factoryX]

what is there to discuss? it is the state and banks falt for giving out bad loans for houses, as for auto makers it is there fault for having cars priced $30,000-$80,000.

[firehart]

Where do I get in line? I gave bad loans to the kids, Does that count? How in the world can the federal government that trillions of dollars in debt, bailout anybody?

[3Razors]

Companies need to start paying for their mistakes. Its time to let nature take its course!

[03 ORANGE SHEE]

Companies need to start paying for their mistakes. Its time to let nature take its course!

well said!;)

[firehart]

I can see these corrupt execs and union bosses making millions for themselves and screwing the little guys AGAIN.

[ditchmud]

If the big 3 go down the tubes maybe that would be a good thing. Then everyone will learn about the trickle down effect, and just how much the country needs it's auto industry and the money that it generates. All the people that would lose everything including that cute little import automobile will learn that even though they themselves don't work in the auto industry that someway, somehow their paycheck depends on us too. Sorry but I take this personal because I am an auto worker. I work for Chrysler and am currently laid off. My family, freind's, neighbor's and townspeople's way of life is what so many people are willing to toss out with yesterdays trash. I live in a modest home and work hard for what I've got. It's not my fault or any of the workers fault for the position that my company is in. But if the big 3 go under for whatever the cause is, we will be the ones paying the price. So will many other people right down to maybe you. Think about that.

[firehart]

I don't want to see anybody out of work. I don't blame the little guys as much as I blame the company's and their board of directors. They think its okay to pay themselves millions of dollar bonuses while their companies are failing. All they look as is the dollar. Maybe we need to appoint new ceo's that listen to the working class. Right now these companies that moved all there work force to third world countries are bitching because the Americans that got outsorced are not not buying their products.

[ditchmud]

I don't want to see anybody out of work. I don't blame the little guys as much as I blame the company's and their board of directors. They think its okay to pay themselves millions of dollar bonuses while their companies are failing. All they look as is the dollar. Maybe we need to appoint new ceo's that listen to the working class. Right now these companies that moved all there work force to third world countries are bitching because the Americans that got outsorced are not not buying their products.

I totally agree 100%

[Tri-ZNate]

The only thing that has kept us out of a full blown recession is belief, the belief that a U.S. dollar has an actual $1 of worth backed up by the fed. reserve. Our dollar is almost worthless, its paper and only has a value of a few cents

Thats it fed. reserve, keep pumping out money and increasing inflation. Yeah, go Govt., keep spending billions of dollars. What does it matter anyway, the amount of debt were in is inconceivable.

I just checked our current debt and we are doing alot better than i thought. Were only in the hole a little over 10.6 trillion dollars.

[killerklown]

couple facts to make you feel better about the economic situation:

CITIBANK, has offered the Mets $400 million dollars for naming rights to their ballpark "citifield".

C.C. Sabathia has agreed in terms to a new deal with the Yankees, fot the richest contract in baseball. In less than 1 inning of a baseball game, on average, he will earn the average U.S citizens annual income.

Federal Judges will earn their annual raises this year, it's included in the auto bailout plan.

The SMALL town I live in forced a new referendum down our throats a couple months back, raising our taxes 40% as well as other costs saying we were in excessive debt, we had no money for road maintenence, etc.etc.etc.
I voted NO. It passed.
We now have new Christmas decorations running the entire length of 3 roads in town, as well as on the city builings. We have doubled our CITY worker staff, Installed new benches, lights, and landscaping in 3 parks. Purchased new vehicles and equipment for the city workers. And out City Administrator seems to spend more time away at seminars on how to help us be more efficient than he does at his office.
I work construction, self employed, I will be starting the last job that I have scheduled this week, and have no leeds after that!
The FAT CATS of America don't get it, never have and never will. They see themselves as being above everyone else, and more impotant than the common good. We have stood up before, as a people, over TEA. We can take it back again! That's all I'm saying. I'm ready to report for duty!
MERRY CHRISTMAS! Hope that doesn't get deleted...
Good Luck Brothers!!!

[JasonB]

couple facts to make you feel better about the economic situation:

CITIBANK, has offered the Mets $400 million dollars for naming rights to their ballpark "citifield".

C.C. Sabathia has agreed in terms to a new deal with the Yankees, fot the richest contract in baseball. In less than 1 inning of a baseball game, on average, he will earn the average U.S citizens annual income.

Federal Judges will earn their annual raises this year, it's included in the auto bailout plan.

The SMALL town I live in forced a new referendum down our throats a couple months back, raising our taxes 40% as well as other costs saying we were in excessive debt, we had no money for road maintenence, etc.etc.etc.
I voted NO. It passed.
We now have new Christmas decorations running the entire length of 3 roads in town, as well as on the city builings. We have doubled our CITY worker staff, Installed new benches, lights, and landscaping in 3 parks. Purchased new vehicles and equipment for the city workers. And out City Administrator seems to spend more time away at seminars on how to help us be more efficient than he does at his office.
I work construction, self employed, I will be starting the last job that I have scheduled this week, and have no leeds after that!
The FAT CATS of America don't get it, never have and never will. They see themselves as being above everyone else, and more impotant than the common good. We have stood up before, as a people, over TEA. We can take it back again! That's all I'm saying. I'm ready to report for duty!
MERRY CHRISTMAS! Hope that doesn't get deleted...
Good Luck Brothers!!!


well put!

All in all, this country has serious issues to work through and i dont think anyone person has all the answers.

[Tri-Z 250]

If Lee-"I'll work for a dollar" didn't push for NAFTA strike me with lighting. He showed the world CEO's how you retire out with Stock options. It just happened right before Chrysler introduced a winning product. The CARAVAN was introduced?(post loan) shortly after the mexico plant was unvailed? and thousands of American jobs were lost. Wow he was a great man... Yeah, the loan was paid for by Chrysler back to the public. Right out of the sale of each car that was sold ummm wait, was that really a loan...So the bail out will be paid back right? We give them the money and save their skin...then they sell us back a new propduct at a higher price (to keep profits up) and say look we paid you back! Sounds good where do I send the check. Whats the point of the UNION anymore? You have appointed blood sucking leaches that ride the back of the workers. I have never seen a strike work PERIOD! NEVER EVER(show where when and how the company gave more after the strike than before its original offer)...When it comes to working deals the UNION gets theirs frist then comes the workers....need to cut budgit in the UNION cut pentions(they don't care about you if you don't pay dues)....Has 1 UNION offical ever been laidoff? If you want to argue skilled workers...might I remind you of the product being put out by or local public schools. I believe some of the future of change includes doing away with the UNIONS Nation wide...AUTO, TEACHERS, are the big 2, say NO?...all I can say is TEAMSTERS where they at?

[ProCarbine2k1]

I may have an alternative approach, and I can say that this is a sore subject around my house... but..
Our economy will hit bottom quickly after the big 3 do. Was it their quality? NO. Their prices or performance? NO. Say what you want about Chevy, Ford, or Dodge, but I dont believe the fault(s) are in their products, but more so the mismanagment and corruption among senior managers and execs.
To see what I am talking about, look no further that GM's CEO, Wagner. I seriously think they should hang this guy. He directly said in the last hearing that he doesnt feel any managment or leadership changes need to be made. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? The ignorant will blame the fall on Union Wages and Union Workers. What a CROCK.
I don't work in the automotive industry (heck I'm not even union), but I do believe in telling it how it is. Let the facts speak for themselves. GM's operating cost (of employee wages, in full) is close to 10%. Not to shabby for the 30% or less most mid scale to larger businesses shoot for. And for the occasional buttheads I hear that "wants" the big 3 to fall, will be the first ones bitching about their food being cold in the soup kitchen, if the big 3 actually does.
And for anyone caught in the middle of this economy/ manufacturing industry, my thoughts are with you...

[brapp]

its all abotu greed i belive the world is assbackwards and the harder someoen works they more they deserve it woudl do away with allthe corprate ass kissign and knock the real honest workers into what they deserve! some of the hardest workign people i know have nothing to thieer names.

[SYKO]

ok when someone said it all trikles down.... well it does

everybody goes people always wreck cars you will always have work

this is a status message in my case file inbox left today




On 10/14/08 (WONT SAY NAME) Corporation filed chapter 11 bankruptcy. The court has currently stayed all funds until further notice. Once the stay is lifted I will put your invoice in for payment. Please see attachments. All claims and invoices after the above date will be paid regularly.



so now I have to go back and figure out how many files I wont be getting paid on!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


a freaking insurance company fileing brankruptcy! what about the people who are insured and not only them ME the guy who does their claims?!

[The Goat]

Is this the time to point out thAt this is not capitalism? Capitalism is all about maintaining profit, had any of these trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailpro idiots bothered to do so, we wouldn't be in this mess.

A single shot .22 and 50,000 rounds=all the food I want. Keep your soup kitchen. I'll look at my trikes as I slowly go insane from lack of vitamins.

[SYKO]

well the Auto bailout failed, thanks in part to the UAW... I would rather have cut wages then no job....

[killerklown]

Nice job UAW!
I know it's not all your fault. However you've been overfed for YEARS. Now you're starving, and you've been offered a home cooked meal, but you'd rather hold out for Prime Rib, (it ain't on the menu!)...
R.I.P. - Common Sense

[The Goat]

Who is john galt?



Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

[firehart]

Maybe now they will look for better ways to survive. Cut out some fat, fire a few CEOs, drop a few lines, and just build good inexpensive basic transportation. Maybe even build cars for Walmart.

[Billy Golightly]

The way things are looking at the moment all 3 of them need to start building world war 2 esque VW beetles for everyone to drive. Or go back to making Model A's.

[The Goat]

I'd buy one with a nice 100hp engine it. Now that would be awesome.

[ditchmud]

Nice job UAW!
I know it's not all your fault. However you've been overfed for YEARS. Now you're starving, and you've been offered a home cooked meal, but you'd rather hold out for Prime Rib, (it ain't on the menu!)...
R.I.P. - Common Sense

I'm not up for concessions. Everytime we give something up it turns into a bigger bonus for the upper management.
The workers at toyota, honda, and the rest of them (that people think we should be more like) make a dollar or two more an hour than I do. The difference is that the people "running" those companies dont write themselves the big paychecks that the management of the big 3 do. They dont get the big bonuses and greed money that GM Ford and Chrysler do. They don't have an abundance of management with high salaries. We (the big 3) have too many chiefs and not enough indians. And when things get tight then they get rid of workers and add more management:confused: no wonder that they are in the position that they are in. The only problem is that if these companies go under I am positive that none of the senior management that are the cause of this failure will go bankrupt themselves. None of them will lose their home or worry about how they will make it another week. But I will. Me and a lot of other people wont have the savings to make it through this recession. We will lose everything and our neigbor will too because his company will fold too, and he will also lose his job, because maybe his company supplied parts to the big 3...and on down the line many businesses will close and more people will lose their jobs. Then who will pay the taxes that our fat cats in Washington and state and local Governments need to operate? Who will fund the unemployment checks that so many people will be getting. Who will be paying for the other social services? Who will be paying the price for this big mess.......You and I will, If and when we find another job, and if there is anyone left to work for.:cry:

[SYKO]

just heard GM will be temp closing 20 plants as of jan, to cut back on cost..

[ditchmud]

When our plant shuts down the local businesses like carryouts, restaurants, bars all feel the pain from the lost business. Our plant will be shut down for more than a month the longest ever in my 11 years there. This year I have been off work about 2 months total. Some other departments have been down about 4 months total.

[ProCarbine2k1]

I'm not up for concessions. Everytime we give something up it turns into a bigger bonus for the upper management.
The workers at toyota, honda, and the rest of them (that people think we should be more like) make a dollar or two more an hour than I do. The difference is that the people "running" those companies dont write themselves the big paychecks that the management of the big 3 do. They dont get the big bonuses and greed money that GM Ford and Chrysler do. They don't have an abundance of management with high salaries. We (the big 3) have too many chiefs and not enough indians. And when things get tight then they get rid of workers and add more management:confused: no wonder that they are in the position that they are in. The only problem is that if these companies go under I am positive that none of the senior management that are the cause of this failure will go bankrupt themselves. None of them will lose their home or worry about how they will make it another week. But I will. Me and a lot of other people wont have the savings to make it through this recession. We will lose everything and our neigbor will too because his company will fold too, and he will also lose his job, because maybe his company supplied parts to the big 3...and on down the line many businesses will close and more people will lose their jobs. Then who will pay the taxes that our fat cats in Washington and state and local Governments need to operate? Who will fund the unemployment checks that so many people will be getting. Who will be paying for the other social services? Who will be paying the price for this big mess.......You and I will, If and when we find another job, and if there is anyone left to work for.:cry:

VERY well put, better than I could have said. Im sure the UAW will take the blame for most of it (GM).. If anybody wants to jump on that tard wagon, go ahead- but you would be better off to do your research.

[ProCarbine2k1]

well the Auto bailout failed, thanks in part to the UAW... I would rather have cut wages then no job....

The did cut wages a while back, almost in half. I'll have to look that one up, but I thought most wages (aside from management) were cut nearly in half.


A single shot .22 and 50,000 rounds=all the food I want. Keep your soup kitchen. I'll look at my trikes as I slowly go insane from lack of vitamins. Good luck with that, kitchen closes at 6 lol.

[Howdy]

The upper management greed is not limited to the Big 3. I see it all over in all aspects of buisness. What needs to be done is limit the salaries of the top guys. yes, they do make some choices that many common people couldn't make correctly. But they also make mistakes that the common people wouldn't. If they limited the upper management to say 40 times the average workers pay ( 40-1 ratio ) then the big 3 wouldn't be as bad off as they are. The average workers pay should be limited to the workers that actually make the product, NO management pay to be included.

Yes 40-1 ration can mean a lot of money ( and it can be ), but a 40-1 ratio would mean a serious cut in wages for some of them ( not just the big 3 ). Some where I heard some company was pay their CEO over 1000 - ratio and that company wasn't making much if any money.

How would this help the Big 3? Ok, say the CEO's has a contract for 5 years to make a 40-1 ratio plus a equal percentage of his pay based on company profits.

During the 3rd year of the CEO's contract the company makes a 25% return on value. The average worker makes $50,000 a year. Then the CEO would make $2,000,000 base salary and a bonus of $500,000 ( 25% of his salary ) for a total $2,500,000 pay for the year ).

Now in the 4th year times are tough and the Company is losing money ( 25% of value ). The CEO ask / demands the workers take a 25% pay cut. So the Average workers pay goes down to $30,000 a year. The CEO's pay would go down to $1,200,000 ( 40-1 ratio ). He doesn't get ANY BONUS because the company is losing money.

To me this would work pretty good, and be fair to everyone. IMO
Howdy

[Mosh]

I have not read all of this.
But here is my thoughts.


I have been a Auto Technician for almost 20 years.
I worked in GM dealers for over 12 of them years.

The Factory workers made anywhere from 20 per hour and up.(with pensions)
Most lead GM techs made 17-20 max (flat rate with no guaruntees)(no retirement)

The tech has to purchase at least 20K in tools to service vehicles.
The factory workers NO tools need come from their pockets.

The factory workers had almost free Health benefits
The Tech at a shop Has to pay upwards of $100 per week for family coverage.

Average Vacation time for a service Tech....2 weeks paid
Average for a factory worker with sick days.....Up to 6 weeks of PAID time off.


Now, all the factory workers do, is get all these great benefits and wages and overtime to put the SAME part on the SAME car day in and day out.
No grease, no rust, easy monkey work......But why is it they were paid so well to do a 3rd grade job...Dont take this personally.....

BOTTOM LINE.....The factory workers have been paid FAR too much for FAR too long...
I wont even touch the CEO's
It is no secret they are paid WAY too much money to do absolutely nothing......

But yet, they get way better benefits and pay,than the guys that keep them running, battling rust grease,neglect, having to go thru CONSTANT training and testing,having to Know all makes and models, Plus buying tools.....

This has been a HUGE sour point in my eyes from day one in this business.

Now lets get to this...

Dont forget THE GENERAL PUBLIC is also a reason for the high dollars and cost that have plagued the big 3...

Did any of you know, that on a $30,000 new vehicle, that almost 30% of that price is figured in to LAWSUITS, WARRANTY WORK, AND SAFETY RECALLS...

In other words, that vehicle should be sold for 21k, had the manufacture not have to pay out lawsuits, or un-needed warranty repairs.
The factory actually has to pay a dealership, to look at a car becuase the customer complained the inside rear door handle did not work.
HAD THE OWNER READ THE FRIGGIN MANUAL......
They would have learned on their own, that there is a child saftey switch on the door latch so a kid cant open the door while driving down the road...

YES Compare that 1 instance with over 100,000 of like complaints at a average cost of 65$ per complaint,and look at what the manufacture has to pay out in the course of 1 year.....

I once saw a guy sue GM, becuase when he got into his Olds Alero, He tore his leather coat on the edge of the door.
He sued GM for 600 bucks and won the claim becuase of a frivoulous lawsuit, that was not the makers fault...

Or how about the people that dont change their oil reguarly, or service the car correctly.Then the motor blows up at 30k miles and GM or FORD has to WARRANTY a $3000 motor????

General public and money hungry attorney's are JUST as much to BLAME for the econmic downfall of the big 3, becuase they entertain these idoits..

If they Fail, it isnt only the Big 3's fault, it is also general publics fault....

In all honesty, I left the dealers 8 years ago,becuase I saw it coming.
To be a independent repair Tech, the fold of the big 3 will actually help my business.
becuase now that people cant go finance a new car, they will have to have that 10 year old car kept running.
I honestly cant understand why so many people for so many years paid such a high price for a car...when they could have gotten more use out of the old car they already had paid for.

[Billy Golightly]

The topic of government mandating CEO pay has come up some before. I disagree with it, not because I think it would work, but from an oversight standpoint. If I'm able to run a company and make $40 million dollars a year and keep it a float and still profitable, then by all means, I should be able to do it. By the same token, if I make $40 million a year as a CEO and the company is tanking like a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro, and I continue to take my big fat pay, I should be rewarded with the end result, and that is the company hitting rock bottom and being worth nothing. Thats what capitalism is, and it works phenomenally well. There just needs to be failure, and incentive to cut back and actually try, instead of waiting for the GOV or anyone else to save your ass for your own greed and stupidity.

To me cutting or capping CEO pay is a bandaid to the overall problem when it should be addressed at the source.

[ditchmud]

To the people that think our job is easy I say this:
Try standing in a crouched position as if you are crawling around the inside of a vehicle installing the interior for an 8 hour day. Try contorting your body in some fashion over and over for 8 hours. If you ever worked on a car then you know the kind of positions and body postures it takes to do it. Do these every day for 8 hours sometimes 12hours about 1,000 times. Do it on the saturday that your kid has soccer games, or your nephew gets married. Do it for 30+ years. I have done my job for only 11. I have torn rotator cuffs in both shoulders, a bad back, and have missed many things that i'd rather be doing than working. I can't replace my body I can't take back time that I've lost from my family when I should have been there, and wanted to be there but was forced to work. Your body and your life is what you pay with to earn those wages. You have good benefits because you will need them to keep your body working. When I walk through that gate at work I have to shut my brain off because I am not allowed to think for myself or have an idea or opinion I am a chrysler robot #1005916. Just do as you are told (this alone puts me in therapy) Suicide rates are high in my profession as well as divorce, and disableing injuries. Many workers die very shortly after retiring due to the strain they have put thier body through and the oils and fumes that have been touched and breathed for years daily. Some dying from cancer from these environments. Is it worth it? Of course it is because I want the best for my family, and this is the best I can do. This is all I have to offer, but it is valueable to me so it will cost you and I'm sorry about that. Walk a mile in my shoes brother before you judge me.

[Mosh]

If you work in a factory, I am sorry if my original post made anyone feel they were not worthy of their pay.

I have been to the factories, had family that worked in factories, so I know what they go through, and a line tech goes thru the same crap......
Many of these dang shops are now open On Sundays til 6....WTF?
Or how about a job that pays me 8 hours of labor under normal circumstances, but, under warranty only pays me 4 hours to do the same job.....Tell me who GM is screwing here.Why dont you just open up my wallet and take all my money GM??? Why does my paycheck suffer over a under engineered problem or design flaw?

And when I see them striking on TV and they are holding up a sign saying "unfair wages"
While their brand new Harley Road King is parked in the background....But yet they are recieving strike pay???

Take it for what anyone wants.

I guess What I mean is...When are people going to quit looking for someone else to blame?
When are people going to quit expecting someone to BAIL them out? No President made you sign your house loan, or get 5 credit cards that you couldnt afford.
Why are people always wanting to point the finger at anyone but themselves?


To the greedy corporate rich people living in a money fantasy.......Neither of us is any better or more valuable than the next guy.
In the end it is the blue collar guy that takes the grunt, but yet gets the less pay.
For years, CEO's and other higher ups, thrived off of us!

Imagine if every mechanic in the country striked for 6 months.....


The country would stop moving.....Busses, trucks, planes, cars,.......

This whole Damn country has lost site of what really makes things happen.

The blue collar guy....

[firehart]

My nephew is a tech at a private shop. He said last month was his best month ever. Probably because their shop rate is less than the dealers.

[Mosh]

And I agree with that.
Because when I left the dealer, they were hiring in 19 year old kids from Wal mart jiffy lube to repair cars at 12 bucks and hour, but the labor rate was 82.50 per hour,and the young kid couldnt fix a ham sandwich.....

So the dealer satisifaction survey numbers dropped,so did the quality of repairs.So consumer confidence dropped. As well as domestic Auto sales.
And that is why the foreign makers like Honda and Toyota,still are OK.
Becuase they were fair across the board with all employee's fatcory, or not. And they can offer a 100K WARRANTY becuase they build a good product.
And they kept good techs at the dealers to repair the problems right the first time...

And that is coming from me...MR Chevy, Buy USA......But the foriegn makers found a way to beat us!

[Howdy]

I would like to clarrify my reply above. I am not in favor of a CEO pay cap for all buisnesses. I do think it should be highly considered when prive industry is asking / begging for a goverment bailout, loans, ect. If a buisness is successful on their own and can pay more SUPER. In no way do I think they should be limited in what they pay.

It is purely when our tax money is handed out like a broken ATM in Harlem do I get urked to no end. The companies should be required to provide 100% total acountability or forget it. Yes the auto industry is an important part of America's economy. That has been proven time and time again. How ever I am totally against just dumping money into it as a bandaid. The Big 3 are hurting and GM is pretty much screwed. It's not too late to save them, but they are going to need some serious reworking. If that means they need to sell off Brands, close factories, layoff people, ect then it must be done. I know I do not want a continual flow of my tax dollars going to bail them out of their mess.

I to have worked in a factory making car seats ( for Honda ). yes, I stood in 1 spot for hours doing the same job over and over. I did that job for 6 years and then I quit to go to another factory job ( current employer ). yes, the job I do now is taxing on my body, and some times it hurts me all day, but it is getting better.

Our company is currently going through some tough times. Layoffs started this week more to come.
Howdy

[firehart]

I've worked in retail for 36 years. I probably walk close to 100 miles a week on concrete floors and my knees and feet are letting me know. I have been fortunate, I have never been layed off. When things get tight I just use a little vacation time. I feel for the young kids that are just starting out. They really need to go to some sort of specialized training along with a few college degrees.