Project Atc 500r forward kick

[jeffatc250r]

Well after seeing a picture of prohemi500's atc 500r with a forward kick setup, i decided that i would also like to have one. My 500 has always been a pain to start. Its not that i cant kick it over, i think its that i cant kick it over fast enough. The pig would always start easily by pop starting which leads me to believe the motor just wasnt turning over fast enough. So im running a slightly larger gear behind the motor with hopes this will cure things. If it's too hard to kick over like this, there is always the decompression setup i could install. We will see.
The gears are tranny gears from a ratted out trx 250 utility 2x4 quad from the mid 80's. I had to do some machine work to them and it wasnt too fun even with carbide inserts, but i limped through it. I took the kick shaft out of the cr motor and attached the knuckle to the end of it and turned it down to fit the other gear over it. The shaft will ride on two koyo sealed bearings that will be attached to two pillow blocks that will be mounted to the frame. Hopefully i will have the pillows done today. A little welding and some set screws to hold the back gear to the shaft, and i also have to cut the splined end off of a 250r kick shaft and weld it to my new shaft that goes behind the motor and i should be done! Running this shaft means that i lost my original shock bottle mount, i had to put on a trx250r shock assy that has a longer hose and run it to the subframe like on the trx models. The shaft isnt any lower than the chain guard that originally went below the stock bottle mount, so no worries about the chain hitting it.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02621.jpg

[fabiodriven]

Nice job Jeff, that looks pissa!

What kind of compression release you got? I got one installed for my 500. Wasn't cheap but works good.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r275/fabiodriven/Compression%20release/P7220297.jpg

[jeffatc250r]

Heres the rear gear with a collar fitted to it. I still have to drill it and put set screws in it to hold it to the shaft and weld the collar to it.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02629.jpg

[jeffatc250r]

Heres another shot of the rear gear.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02630.jpg

[jeffatc250r]

Heres the turned down kicker knuckle with the new gear fitted to it that goes on the cr kick shaft on the motor.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02626.jpg

[jeffatc250r]

Left side of the bike, after i get everything in its final place ill trim the shaft back.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02623.jpg

[SYKO]

thanx for posting this!!! HEY BILLY!!!!

[sand slinger]

Do you have a link to the build of your frame? I am currently working on a frame for a 500 and I have been looking at all the ways you guys fabricated your frames to come up with the best way I can build mine.

[jeffatc250r]

Fabio- I dont actually have a de-comp yet and dont plan on getting one unless i really have to. You get that done from that guy on e-bay for 200 bux?

Sandslinger- Im somewhat computer retarded and dont know how to post links, do a search and you will find it, its called New start to the 500 project and is on the second page, or maybe someone can make a link for you.

[Red Rider]

From one Jeff to another. Us Jeff's have to stick together ya know.

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=62616&highlight=start+500+project

[fabiodriven]

[QUOTE=jeffatc250r;696329]Fabio- I dont actually have a de-comp yet and dont plan on getting one unless i really have to. You get that done from that guy on e-bay for 200 bux?

QUOTE]

Ya, he used to be on Ebay. I don't think he is anymore. Accu-Fab is the company. The guy did a great job and there's no way I would've been able to kick this thing over before but he took forever. After about 4 months I was calling there 2 times a day. I didn't get my jug back for 6 months. This will also allow me to run a Tecate length kicker so it doesn't hit my fenders. I had a Tecate kicker lever machined to fit the KX500 kicker base (thanks Dickiedog).

[Dirtcrasher]

Hmmm,

SOMEBODY's got demselves a lathe!!

Nice stuff Jeff!! Looking great and supporting that jack shaft all the way to the left side is perfect!

[Billy Golightly]

Awesome, fantastic Job there. I think this will be the next mod that is done on my 500R :)

[The Goat]

just how hard are these things to kick? since everyone seems to be going with that decomp.

[Billy Golightly]

Jeff, I'm looking through your pictures better, when I first read it, I thought you were going to be using set screws and some weld to hold that gear onto the CR500 kickershaft, but the caption under your one picture leads me to believe that you simple turned down a kick starter knuckle that had the correct splines in it, to fit the ID of the gear? Am I understanding that right? That is infact the very idea I had been thinking of to myself on how to do that. How did you address the clamp/tightening bolt that held it tight against the shaft? Is it tight enough to run without that? Fantastic that it can infact be done :)

[200x newby]

how much would you chagr to build one or atleast machine the gears?

[jeffatc250r]

Jeff, I'm looking through your pictures better, when I first read it, I thought you were going to be using set screws and some weld to hold that gear onto the CR500 kickershaft, but the caption under your one picture leads me to believe that you simple turned down a kick starter knuckle that had the correct splines in it, to fit the ID of the gear? Am I understanding that right? That is infact the very idea I had been thinking of to myself on how to do that. How did you address the clamp/tightening bolt that held it tight against the shaft? Is it tight enough to run without that? Fantastic that it can infact be done :)

That is exactly what i did Billy. I took the cr kicker shaft out of the motor and took all the parts off of it. Then took the stock cr knuckle and just put it on where it usually goes, that is after i trimmed it up a bit, then threw the whole kicker shaft in the lathe with the bolt and washer that normally hold it on. Its the easiest way to hold it.

[jeffatc250r]

just how hard are these things to kick? since everyone seems to be going with that decomp.

Im a big guy and dont have any trouble kicking it over. But with the kicker now being 1.5 to 2 inches shorter than the cr 500 kicker and a different gear ratio,.....im not sure how bad its going to be.

[fabiodriven]

just how hard are these things to kick? since everyone seems to be going with that decomp.

I have heard KX's are the worst. I never even bothered to try mine without the compression release but I only weigh 145 lbs. The dude I bought it from was 200+ lbs and told me he had snapped 2 kickers before. I guess the KX's are known for that. After I got the jug back I fired the thing up no problem.

I tried to kick over my buddy's KTM380EXC and couldn't get that thing running.

2 of the guys we ride with ride LT500's and they either have it down to a science or they just aren't that hard to kick over because they fire right up.

[hondawasaki]

I have heard KX's are the worst.

There tough stock (60hp), just think what 105hp will be like!!



Looks like a great start Jeff!! I'll be watching for update pics!!

[fabiodriven]

There tough stock (60hp), just think what 105hp will be like!!



Looks like a great start Jeff!! I'll be watching for update pics!!

Hondawasaki, why don't you just get the titanium insert for your leg ahead of time. That way you won't have to wait until it breaks!:lol:

[jeffatc250r]

Well i didnt get as far as i thought i would yesterday, but i did get the pillows for the bearings mostly made. Im going to make these de-tachable from the frame with a couple of 1/4 inch plates that will be welded to the frame. Today ill finish up the pillows, (mill off the square corners on the front). And make the plates.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02637.jpg

[jeffatc250r]

Heres a sketch of what im thinking for plates to mount to the frame, i think one for each side will work fine, but ill make 4 of them in case it needs to have one on both sides of the bearing, like a sandwich.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02638.jpg

[jeffatc250r]

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02633.jpg

[jeffatc250r]

If you want to do this but want to keep the gearing one to one, you will have to do it a different way, there is only about 3/16 gap from the shaft to the back of the motor with the way i have mine set up. Ive thought up a way of running a smaller rear gear while still using a shaft all the way across the frame like this but its kind of difficult to explain on the computer and will require a couple other parts on top of what ive already had to make.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02634.jpg

[fabiodriven]

That is awesome, Jeff.

[Red Rider]

Nice work so far Jeff. How do you plan on attaching the kickstart lever to the new shaft? It doesn't look like the new shaft protrudes beyond the right side bearing carrier enough to get a lever on there. Do you plan on cutting some splines on the new shaft?

D'oh! Disregard the above questions. I just reread your first post, and I see that you plan on welding on the splined end of a 250R kickstarter shaft. That ought to solve both the stubby shaft & lack of splines problems.

[jeffatc250r]

Thanks for the good comments guys. I think its going to work great!

[jeffatc250r]

how much would you chagr to build one or atleast machine the gears?

For you, $2000 :lol:

[jeffatc250r]

Well i more or less finished the bearing holders, ive been kinda lazy lately and havent done much with this, but soon enough everything will be welded up.

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02639-1.jpg

[jeffatc250r]

http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/jeffsatc250r/DSC02640.jpg

[NOS_350X]

I really dont see the problem with everyone kicing the 500's with 230 psi compression i had no problem starting mine. Its all about the kicking style, and making shure its tuned properly. You push mine past that compression and it would go, You woudnt even have to kick it that hard.

Although it is intresting to see how people go about solving problems they have.

[fabiodriven]

I really dont see the problem with everyone kicing the 500's with 230 psi compression i had no problem starting mine. Its all about the kicking style, and making shure its tuned properly. You push mine past that compression and it would go, You woudnt even have to kick it that hard.

Although it is intresting to see how people go about solving problems they have.

140 lbs (me) + 500cc two-stroke= no start. I don't care what little tricks you have, the guy I got my motor from weighs 200+lbs and broke two kickers. I can kick it over with little effort with my compression release. Why put myself out if I don't have to? What if I'm having an issue one day in the middle of the woods and I have to kick it over more than a few times. I can't even kick it over once! How am I gonna kick it a few times?

[NOS_350X]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g285/NOS_350x/S5031436.jpg

Im sorry that this isnt a good picture, But my kickstart lever was off of a atc250r, that i put onto the 500, It cleared the finders too while kicking it, So its not that long. When i first got the bike i only weighed 130, So dont let the weight be your decidding factor as to why you cant kick it. turn it over till you find the comprssion bring the kicker back to the top, Push down till some of the pressure bleads off onece it starts to move use your leeg not your weight to force it down. If by some chance it kicks back which to me shows you have something wrong you leeg pops up and no harm, trying to put your weight into it just going to hurt things in the long run. Im used to kicking over my high compression 350x and 450's the 500 really aint crap compared to those. Those bikes you have to kick start, trying to bump start them will just leave the rear end sliding.

[fabiodriven]

Yeah, I've tried that method, some other guy told me to get it to Bottom dead center and kick it. His therory being that the flywheel will do the work. Nothing worked for me. Most of this I tried on a KTM 380EXC that's not even as hard to kick over as a 500. Have you ever tried kicking over a KX500? I've seen my buddy kick over his CR500 multiple times with no problem, and the guys I ride with kick over their Quadzillas. Both of those don't look hard to kick at all for some reason. From what I've heard, the KX's are notoriously hard to kick. Like I said before, the previous owner broke two kickers. I've got the decompressor and it works great.:D

[hondahaulic]

so is there any update on this? seems like a cool setup

[jeffatc250r]

Ive been pre-ocupied with assembling another bike lately. All i have to do is make the mounts for it on the frame and it will be done. I will have an update within a week or so once i finish it.

[3Razors]

I love the idea of the forward kick. I'm only worried about the strength of the frame being able to hold up to the welding/vibration/kicking on a daily ride, I have a feeling it might start to crack and the bearing gear assembly will rip out. I hope I'm wrong though and it works out.

[Billy Golightly]

Jeff, did you ever finish this? I think I'm about ready to build one for mine, as starting it is about the only reason I dont make a daily or frequent rider out of it.

[jeffatc250r]

Billy, I havent finished it yet. Seems as though every time im ready to something else comes up. Im hoping to have new pix of a finished product soon.

[Billy Golightly]

Totally understandable. Just curious cause I think I'm about to tackle this one myself.

[Hurricane635]

Do you have a link to the build of your frame? I am currently working on a frame for a 500 and I have been looking at all the ways you guys fabricated your frames to come up with the best way I can build mine.

Here take a look at mine.
http://s573.photobucket.com/albums/ss179/Hurricane635/

[300rman]

i would definitely use the 2 plates for a sandwich, at least on the kicker side. better to overbuild it than giv'r a good kick and see it laying on the ground in a twisted heap.

[jeffatc250r]

Bout friggin time I start playing with this again!

Did some work and got it close. It is quite strong and I really dont think that it will ever screw up in any way. The kicker is close to resting in its home as is, so should be quite easy to give it a couple lil tweaks to make it perfect with Mr. torch

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af333/skunkhunter/DSC01202.jpg;';

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af333/skunkhunter/DSC01203.jpg;';

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af333/skunkhunter/DSC01204.jpg;';

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af333/skunkhunter/DSC01205.jpg

[RodKnockRacing]

very nice work

[Billy Golightly]

Love it...I've got to build one of those for my 500!

[fabiodriven]

Lookin good Jethro.

[jeffatc250r]

Well, didnt work out so well, the jackshaft ended up bending right where the splined end was welded on under the load of starting it.
I think this will work great only if a decomp is used, its just too much piston to be throwing around with no comp release for my forward kick contraption.

[Dirtcrasher]

Jeff, is that just plain old cold rolled steel welded to those hardened splines?? I'm surprised it didn't snap.......

We gotta find you a splined shaft made from tool steel. May need a center bearing being that it will be a shorter shaft (not sure if you even have the room to do that) but thats just me thinking aloud......

You may even find a (correctly) splined longer countershaft or main shaft out of something.

I bet those splines are the same as my 87 200X kickers but they'r too short to do anything with.

Any idea how many splines there are and the OD??

[4cylinders]

hey, you need to get it heat treated.

[BGP]

x2

Heat it red hot and throw it in the dirtiest oil you can find (used diesel engine oil = better). The carbon and other impurities like nitrogen, phosphor in the oil is what you're after to case harden it. You could also throw it in urine or stick it through a body like they did with swords...

[Dirtcrasher]

Regardless, if he used cold rolled everyday steel, then it will never mate properly. You CANNOT heat treat 2 different steels the same way; I think he needs air hardening or oil hardening shaft material or a shaft from something that fits which is why I'd like to have the spline count and O.D.

It seems his bent right at the weld or somewhere between the 2 bearings.

[bcredneck]

x2

Heat it red hot and throw it in the dirtiest oil you can find (used diesel engine oil = better). The carbon and other impurities like nitrogen, phosphor in the oil is what you're after to case harden it. You could also throw it in urine or stick it through a body like they did with swords...

this totaly works when i make gun parts i do this because i live in canada and hunt its a pain to find parts for any guns most stores dont sell small parts so we make them from normal steel keep them red hot for at least 5 min and dipp in used motor oil and repeat 3 times the oil you use cant have water in it or it wont work properly the water makes a steam barrier and the steel will be brittle the blacker the oil the more carbon the better it works

[jeffatc250r]

The stock is high carbon, not cold rolled. I think its because its welded right at the most vulnerable place, being so close to the bearing, and on the wrong side of the bearing.
A one piece shaft would prob be much better, but im thinking its gonna fail somewhere else after.
Theres just too much strain there, it needs a decomp, otherwise i will just be battling problem after problem.
If i put a decomp on it, im sure if i straighten out the shaft i have, it will work fine.

[big specht]

So did you ever get that jack shaft to work ?

[B S]

i see it working if your able to use a pre made shaft then make a extension on the end of it with a set screw instead of wwelding it

make sense?

i could make a diagram ?