It's going to be a bumpy ride America

[torque]

I can tell that if I ever start bending elbows with some of you guys it will be a long, long night and I’ll probably lose my voice from arguing. Anyway, I don't have the time needed to respond to all of Flabio's post, but I can tell you that on 9/11 the Mexican news reported that flight 93 was shot down by US forces. I heard this with my own ears. Mexican new gets their reports from the AP, so someone explain that one. It was less than 1/2 hour later that they recanted the story. I believe it was shot down and I don’t think it was the wrong thing to do. As far as building blowing up and such I am a skeptic. Demolition is a very costly and invasive process, many would have had to have known and same is true if the charges were built into the buildings. There are no secrets on jobsites. As far as what steel does when heated and stressed, I told my wife the buildings were going to collapse soon after the fires started (I was watching live as I'd quit my job the day before) and I'm no expert. Heated steel twists all to heck when stressed and tears up easily. Those f%^$*)g camel f&%g#s hit the buildings perfectly. Its also no secret that nations lie, steal and cheat. Germany accused Poland of invading them, The US forced Hawaii to join them with economic terrorism and the acquisition of all the States that once were Mexico wasn't anything to be proud of either (don’t worry, they are getting even as I type) I'll bet the American Indians would love to add a few lines here to, but the bottom line is that "stuff" happens and life goes on and I can’t spend my life fretting when I could be drinking, or riding instead. If I live another 25 years as a free man and can still buy 2 stroke oil legally I'll die happy.

i respect your opinion but on the subject of twisted steel i saw huge steel beams that were cut razer sharp, and looked almost surgical. when 9/11 went down i bought hook line and sinker, but ass time past i started to change my tune. if you have not looked at the links posted by fabio watch them there is some photographic evidence that is very hard to refute. at the very least this evidence does not match the official stroy.

one thing that has bothered me for a long time is that the american government pin pointed the taliban almost overnight bit after 40 plus years they still cant identify kennedy's assassin.

[threewheelin-feelin]

flossyb i agree with you...i am a big history buff so i have done lots and lots of research on 9/11..i have watched all the 9/11 conspiracy theorys and then found another movie to debunk everything...there are to many people that lay around eveyday just thinking up conspiracys... how bout michael moore think about how much money he made on his after he set the hook

[Popeye]

First video with Jeff Daniels was spot on- took the words right out of my mouth. If he would have just left it as a rant it would have turned people away, but the way he finishes forces you to listen and in my opinion agree.

Collapse of bldg 7- The Silverstein statement that "we made the decision to pull" is not evidence of a demolition to me. He is not a member of a demolition team, so I don’t think he would use the jargon. Civilians don’t walk around calling walls "bulkheads" or bathrooms "heads". His insurance battles are also of no concern to me. He is a billionaire business man- you don’t get that way by being dumb or sensitive to other people. But the fact that no firefighters were in the building, the fact that the building had sustained relatively minor damage, and the collapse of the main beam are all points worth taking note of. Also, what the building may have contained could raise some eyebrows too. IMO it could have been a controlled blast that was strictly used to prevent a breach of security. The US will not hesitate to kill its own citizens in order to protect its interests- no matter how many lives it costs.

I don’t really have an opinion about the Loose Change trailer. Not enough information for me to go on. I don’t discount the theory that it was a foreign and domestic coup, but if it was then bin Laden couldn’t have had anything to do with it (why would he participate in something that they would blame him for and then hunt him down and kill him over). He admitted to taking part, so it doesn’t make sense.

I did not watch “911 In Plane Site” too long, I will save it for another day. Probably the most informative one though.

My profession prohibits me from sharing my complete opinion on The Flower video. This is not a private forum and although we have usernames- I like to be able to use my real name if I want. But I will say, if I had a choice between which was illegal-alcohol or weed- I would go with alcohol. If I had a choice of which one I didn’t want my son ever touching it would be alcohol. In my younger days, alcohol caused me a lot of trouble. The other has not.

As far as Area 51- I do believe the govt keeps a ton of secrets. Some in the interest of security and some for who knows the hell why. But I don’t believe in aliens or ghosts. Not saying they ain’t there I just don’t believe in them.

The TSA video had me confused. I don’t know why the guy said the TSA had no right to be there. It is a train station where people travel. I really don’t know the extent of the TSA’s authority though. I’m a small town guy that don’t travel much so it is of no concern to me at the moment. As far as them harassing him, it is to be expected. But that don't make it right. Like the words said- the police state is here. I agree that things are getting crazy, but I wasn’t really shocked by this video. I have been harassed worse than this guy for doing less. I like how he said “the constitution is my permit”.

One thing that I will throw out there is that I am a Democrat (if anything). I’ve lived at or below the poverty level my whole entire life. I can’t afford to be a Republican. One thing that irks me is the Democrats view on gun control. But it seems that they have kinda left it to the states for the time being.
Something that always made me laugh was a line from Ben Stiller’s movie “The Heartbreak Kid”, where Jerry Stiller is taking him to Mississippi to reunite with the girl and Stiller tells him “This is the bible-belt, these people have guns.” Damn straight!

[Maico]

My $.02 cents....(-$38 after taxes)....

That clown that's in office right now is nothing but a slick,two faced LYING assed SOCIALIST that wants America destroyed.

Do yourself a favor and look up the history on this clown. He's a Muslim. He's a bold faced liar. He's a SOCIALIST. He does NOT believe in AMERICA.

Hopefully a 1 term president.

[fabiodriven]

flossyb i agree with you...i am a big history buff so i have done lots and lots of research on 9/11..i have watched all the 9/11 conspiracy theorys and then found another movie to debunk everything...there are to many people that lay around eveyday just thinking up conspiracys... how bout michael moore think about how much money he made on his after he set the hook

Hey flossy, here's your company. The 17 year old kid. Lol.

[fabiodriven]

The TSA video had me confused. I don’t know why the guy said the TSA had no right to be there. It is a train station where people travel. I really don’t know the extent of the TSA’s authority though. I’m a small town guy that don’t travel much so it is of no concern to me at the moment. As far as them harassing him, it is to be expected. But that don't make it right. Like the words said- the police state is here. I agree that things are getting crazy, but I wasn’t really shocked by this video. I have been harassed worse than this guy for doing less. I like how he said “the constitution is my permit”.

If you see nothing wrong with Americans being searched on their own soil based on reasons fabricated by those doing the searching, then they've got you. Don't complain when you have to sit at a checkpoint to enter a city or get searched to enter a mall.

I appreciate you checking out the links, but feedback from the actual documentaries and not just the previews would be optimum.

[atc007]

Yes,and for the record,,I didn't look at any of fabios links. I saw Loose change,and 9/11 In Plane Sight,,a few times each. PLEASE,,sit down and watch them A couple times!! That's ALL I 'm asking! YA know WHY??! Because I made flossy look like a conspiracy theorist!! I don't have time in my life for a tenth of reality! Too mention" lay around thinking up conspiracy's!" WATCH these,,with THE attitude that the people who made these are NUTS. THEN,,SHOW me a plane part in PA. SHOW me ONE SINGLE OUNCE of Flossy's theories at the Pentagon. For Gods sake people. These planes brought down the WTT ,1,2,and 7..???.BUT,,at the Pentagon,, the PAPERS{ laying AT THE Entrance of this " jet" that left NO parts behind I will ad,,} Are WHITE,unsinged,the wood desks perfect.. Military personnel stating they heard and SMELLED the explosives. Watch the Movies.A cpl times,,WITH the attitude YOU are going to discount them. Anyone intelligent enough to turn their computer on and find this thread will realize. then to bury your head in the sand and not ADMIT. That's your right : )

[Flossyb20]

Hey flossy, here's your company. The 17 year old kid. Lol.

Atleast there's another reasonable person here...you guys have to claim this steller list of scholars who believe everything Fabio posted...
http://www.thesharkguys.com/lists/to...heory-nutjobs/

[TimSr]

Are you guys serious?? Is that the stuff you need to believe to sleep better at night? Instead of sitting around thinking up out-of-this world conspiracy theories, maybe we should be thinking of how to live our lives KNOWING that what happened happened because there are in fact wacko's out there who can't stand-us as a nation, be it for reasons of lifestyle, politics, or just simply the fact that we have what they can never. You can sit there and type all this crap up with wild, unsubstaniated accusations about our gov't because you are in fact, FREE to do so. The mear thought that our Gov't knew these tragedies were going to happen and did nothing about cheapens the lives given during the military actions that followed. You should be ashamed.

I do not believe anything the government tells me, I don't trust the government, the government is on a perpetual quest to continuously give itself more power over us, and would gladly screw us over in a New York minute if it were to benefit from it.

...but I'm with you 100% on this this one.

While all the conspiracy theories have interesting interpretations of "the facts", I've never heard a coherent explanation of a practical motive, or believeable benefit or an explanation of how they manage to keep the thousands of people who would be required to cooperate in the conspiracy quiet and leakproof when we can't even do a small scale asassination of a terrorist leader without releasing the the identitiess of the locals who assisted us. Of all the conspiratorial wars, you left out Korea, the Gulf War which never ended and was actually the beginning of the Iraq War, Bonsia, Serbia, and Panama to name a few.

While war stimulates economic activity, its does not produce revenue. It is a gigantic expense. We made far more money selling arms to the Brittish before entering WWII than we were cost by entering. If were were ready for the Japanese attack in 1941, and shot every one of them down, would we not still have declared war on them for their attack? If the planes that hit the towers had left them standing, would our course of action have been different? Really? Regardless of who fired the first shots in Vietnam, our policy of communist containment, right or worng, made the conflict inevitable.

Did our military shoot down Flight 93? Its no secret that that was the necessary military plan. Its also no secret it was the passengers' plan as well. Whether the passengers were successful, or whether it was shot down, and the passengers got credit and were made heros, does it change anything other than morale and the fact that lives were saved by bringing it down where it went down?

War has never benefitted a president since WWII. Quite the opposite.

Other than WWII, most of the wars were during times of very minor recession or economic prosperity.

WWII nearly caused the nation to go bankrupt.
911 threw us into a huge recession that still lingers.

We fight all these wars for oil, and yet where is it, and why do we fight so hard against producing our own and obtaining it from Canada?

WMDs never existed in Iraq, yet Iraqui chemical weapons are magically appearing in Syria. A president would take us to war over a personal vendetta against one man, but the notion that during a time when everybody was waiting for the next attack, that both he and congress (who approved his actions) truly believed this man would supply those weapons to terrorist groups and posed a threat is not believeable?

While its all very interesting and imaginative, I've never heard a plausible explanation as to what benefits could possibly make it worthwhile to cook up any of these conspiracies by anyone, even our government. How you could possibly execute these conspiracies in front of millions of witnesses, and with the manpower it would require and keep it secret is way beyond believeable to me.

I am not partial to any political party and know nothing of politics. I do like Ron Paul and what he stands for, but I haven't studied him thoroughly. I don't care for politics enough to concern myself.

I greatly respect your military service, but I find this statement shocking, and most troubling of all. The biggest problem our country faces today is that too many people take this attitude, and yet cast votes. If a person has not studied the candidates and their records (not the comercials), and the issues, they do not serve anyone by casting a ballot.

[Popeye]

My bad, I missed the point. I thought the links were what I was supposed to watch. It's not that I think it is okay to be searched on our soil for fabricated reasons, I guess I have just accepted it. I didn't get the significance of it all. They search you at the airport all the time. It's not that I approve of it, it's just what are you gonna do. I've accepted that they are gonna do what they do. A revolution would be great, but I would just move to a more stable country before I participated. I've got kids to raise. I couldn't imagine raising them during the first revolutionary war, much less one in today's world. If you don't have the majority you are facing certain death. I'm willing to die for my family, but not my country or our rights anymore. Too many better places to move to. If that makes me a coward then so be it.

I would like to say that I will sit down and watch movies about all the stuff you're talking about. But to be honest, it just don't interest me. Fabio, I agree that everything you said possibly happened. Our country is ruthless and will stop at nothing. I just don't care. I know that I am being on a daily basis, but until it threatens the livelihood of my children I'm really not gonna do anything about it. I applaud those who will.

[kawasaki666]

No wonder you ALL belong to this Forum, and ride 3Wheelers. YOUR ALL CRAZY!!! Someone had to say it! LoL! Good thred! I could care less about this topic(but for some reason I read the whole frikin thing!), I'm just doing my time here on Earth, and having fun doing it! I'm just one person. I agree with most that is being said here(both sides). But the fact is . . . We as a Nation can do something about ALL this B.S.. It sounds good when being talked about, but, good luck getting us ALL to agree to stand up and do something about it. I am only 1 person! I choose to just ride! Thanks guys!

[fabiodriven]

To Tim Sr- If you could take the time to watch the two documentaries posted it would explain things a lot better than I did. The term "conspiracy theory" gets thrown around a lot. That term in itself is dismissive. There are facts, cold hard facts, eyewitness accounts, video footage, and photographic evidence that I promise you can not be ignored or dismissed if you have the time to watch these two documentaries.

I know it's a lot to ask for somebody to set aside a couple of hours of their life to watch something they probably otherwise wouldn't, but I promise you will look at things very differently if you do.

Many people say these things are crazy, they're just theories, etc... I didn't start looking into these things because I wanted to believe in them. I started looking into them because of the state of our country today. I asked myself what the heck is going on here? I refuse to believe a media who is constantly trying to cram propaganda down my throat and ignore the reality of what is literally in plane site for all to see, if they would just merely take the time to look.

The TV tells you what to think, who is important, and who you should listen to. And in between their mind numbing crap, all the TV does is try to sell you drugs. Think about it people! Multiple drug commercials on EVERY COMMERCIAL BREAK!

I greatly respect your military service, but I find this statement shocking, and most troubling of all. The biggest problem our country faces today is that too many people take this attitude, and yet cast votes. If a person has not studied the candidates and their records (not the comercials), and the issues, they do not serve anyone by casting a ballot.

Tim, I understand your view on people like myself voting, but you don't know my entire view. In my eyes, any candidate that actually stands a chance of winning our presidency is not worth my vote. Our entire government is a complete and total loss. I don't believe our voting system to be anything more than a farce, just as our puppet president. I get the feeling that Ron Paul may be an actual man outside of the circle of crooked politicians, somebody different. As I said, I do not know a lot about politics, but I am jaded. Very jaded. That's not my fault. Our government lies to us constantly and owns the media, so what am I supposed to believe? I do my own research on things I'm interested in and prefer unbiased opinions or proven, documented facts. I do receive information slower in that manner, but my information is far more accurate than what the talk box is telling you what to think.

[atc007]

Atleast there's another reasonable person here...you guys have to claim this steller list of scholars who believe everything Fabio posted...
http://www.thesharkguys.com/lists/to...heory-nutjobs/

While I realize I'm barking up an empty tree here,and certainly should be doing better things with my time! That is just SAD Flossy. When I got to Heidi and her blonde hubby, i closed the link. They're nutjobs. We are asking you,,to WATCH 2 MOVIES. And then,,explain the Pentagon,,for better words,and to simply keep this short. Watch these,, hopefully a COUPLE times IF you actually CARE about anyone around you. And come back here and explain how a jet liner THAT Size fit into a 20 ft hole,,Never singing a single paper in the entry hole. THEN after they bombed the hole open bigger. You still couldn't fit half a plane that size in there. There are thousands of FACTS that simply are there. this is just one. I wait for you to WATCH the movies and explain this to us. I am Damn sure NOT a conspiracy theorist! I see facts and adjust my game plan as such... Tim,,I have all the respect for you ,you know that.. A plane never crashed in PA that day...

[fabiodriven]

I will speak to Flossy's link-

“How big a lunatic do you have to be to witness two jet airliners filled with jet fuel slam into buildings on live TV, triggering a massive inferno that burned for two hours and then think ‘Well, if you believe that’s the cause…’” Bill Maher

The problem here is, Bill Maher is a TV personality. Bill Maher is not a scientist, an engineer, an eye witness, a fire fighter, or anything other than a person who saw the same thing we all did on TV that day. Bill Maher saw and heard what the media wanted him to see and hear, just the same as everyone else. The fact that Bill Maher has a TV show does not make me think twice about the facts of 9/11.

With most of us here being gear heads, let's talk physics for a second.

They love to throw the term "jet fuel" around. Does anyone here know what kind of "jet fuel" a commercial airliner takes? It takes diesel fuel ladies and gentlemen. The very same diesel fuel we put in our trucks every day. I hauled diesel fuel in the army and we fueled helicopters, transport planes, and our trucks all from the same tanker.

I can't remember how much fuel those planes carried off the top of my head, but let's call it 10,000 gallons. Everyone saw the impact when the planes hit. I saw a big explosion and I know you all did as well. That was 10k worth of diesel fuel all exploding at once. So the plane hits, the diesel fuel burns off within probably a couple minutes at the longest, so what's left to burn? We have office furniture, paperwork, maybe some doors, concrete, and steel.

Now, I don't know how many of you are familiar with the properties of molten metal, but I am very familiar with oxy/acetylene and what it does to metal. That doesn't make me an expert on the engineering of buildings, but I do know enough to have a lot of questions. There is no way anyone is going to tell me that diesel fuel did enough damage to those beams to cause the complete collapse of those buildings. It is just simply not at all feasible.

Let's say for arguments sake that the beams did take that much damage. Those beams were completely compromised where they were hit and totally melted (which is impossible). Why did the beams on the lower floors give way? The top of that building could have completely collapsed on itself and there would be more than enough support left to hold itself up. So why did the entire building come down?

Let's talk physics. Let's say the lower parts of the beams were, in fact, compromised (impossible). We all know heat rises, right? So why would beams below the initial explosion suddenly give way? Does it not bother anyone that these questions have already been asked, yet NEVER ANSWERED? The "investigations" on why these buildings collapsed never, ever gave ANY REASON as to why these buildings came down.

But that's fine. The TV said there's probably some good reason somewhere, right? So there must be.

People, ask yourselves these questions, and if you can give me the answers then by all means DO SO.

For the record, there have been many sky scraper infernos over the years. Buildings made of the same material as the twin towers and tower 7. Not one of those structures collapsed, not one. These are the first three steel/concrete buildings IN HISTORY to have collapsed from fire. If the gall-dang TV told you that, you would believe it.

[Vealmonkey]

What I never understood, when talking about what happened at the pentagon, why did the government only release 3 pictures??? It also confiscated all film evidence that surrounded the pentagon that day? The public can drive by the pentagon any time, 24 hours a day. I attended motorcycle events that started at the pentagon parking lot. And it amazes me at the pictures it does show. When you are looking at the pictures, keep in mind a little word in the art world called "perspective". Perspective starts at a point and expands out from that single focal point and it makes all the objects in that picture look in relative size to each other. Nearer objects being bigger and farther objects being smaller. Now in one of the pictures, it shows something behind the gate that lets cars into that one particular section of the pentagon parking lot. But the thing is, how far away does a jet liner have to be to be obscured by the upright of the gate? Quite a distance I would imagine. But I don't really think there would be enough distance to hide the jet liner behind that upright post. For an example of what I'm talking about. Stand in the front yard of your house, unless you have alot of acreage (LOL) and hold up your thumb to your house and how much of the house is sticking out behind your thumb? Now back up far enough until your thumb covers the whole "picture" of your house. How far away are you now? That is perspective. And to me personally, it just never seemed correct to me about the gate pole covering the size of that "jet liner" in that picture in relationship to how far away that vapor trail appears. And there is another question. What jet leaves a vapor trail upon take off or landing? Vapor trails are made by the jet exhaust in the cool air. I seen jets take off and land on cold winter day, down near 10 degrees (and colder) that left no vapor trail. What gives? A person would think, that if the government would want us to believe that a jet airliner hit the pentagon that day, then it would want to show the jet airliner as evidence. I don't think that there are any gov't secrets in the area coming acorss the lot that the "jet airliner" traveled before it hit the building, so why not show better pictures what happened. Not just show 3 frames of a film after being forced by the courts to do so. And I'll just leave it at that and not bring up anything else. So the known facts here: Something struck the pentagon causing an explosion and a whole. The gov't has a film or several films of the incident, but will only show 3 frames, and that after a federal court order. The gov't confiscated all other photo evidence in the surrounding area of the incident. The 3 frames that are shown, do not clearly show a plane, let alone an airliner. Think about all that.