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Thread: '84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition?

  1. #16
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Hi KB.

    Thanks for the schematic. I can probably find the parts I need for that at work. I'll give that a try on Monday.

    I correctly seated the needle, but it made no difference.

    Then my new ebay carb arrived in the mail. I was pretty psyched. I install it, fire the engine up, but it still runs the same! No improvement at all. (?)

    Process of elimination, I guess. :-/

    Let me know what you find out about the voltage from you source coil.

    Thanks!

  2. #17
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Hello

    Just been watching you tread hoping kb would get it running for you, sounds like he won’t give up which is good however as a passive observer after reading all the posts it sounds like either a bad “old” and bad “new” COIL or a bad $5.00 Chinese CDI box if I was looking at the right one. This is provided your gas is good as I previously suggested to check and your descriptions and connection of the new cdi box are accurate.

    Is the “new” coil new or used?

    Is it Chinese?

    Did you ever simply ohm the coil like it says to in the manual to check it? I didn’t see you doing that test in your thread but I could have missed it.

    If not why not?

  3. #18
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Hi Barnett.

    I went through the ignition system per the manual, and all the components checked out: (results below from a spread sheet I created to help me keep things straight. formatting got a little screwed up by the forum, but the first value is the Honda spec, the second value is the actual)

    Honda Spec Tested Value
    Stator/resistance 100 - 400 ohm 257 ohm
    Stator/volts - - 27 volts @ idle

    Pulse Generator/resistance 30 ohm (+/- 10 ohm) 28.7 ohm
    Pulse Generator/air gap 0.3-0.4 mm .330 mm

    Spark Plug Gap 0.6 - 0.7 mm 0.62

    Ignition Coil/primary .2 - .4 ohm .3 - .4 ohm
    Ignition Coil/secondary 3 - 5 ohm 13.6 ohm @ plug end

    The old coil and wire/connector were within spec, but I was able to get an Ebay/Chinese coil/wire/connector for $11 delivered -- so figured it was money well spent if for no other reason than for diagnosis. The new coil also checks out when measured for resistance per the repair manual.

    Maybe not a bad idea to order a couple more CDI boxes ($5 each, delivered) just to be sure I'm not chasing my tail on that end.

    Thoughts?

  4. #19
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvpierce View Post
    Hi Barnett.

    I went through the ignition system per the manual, and all the components checked out: (results below from a spread sheet I created to help me keep things straight. formatting got a little screwed up by the forum, but the first value is the Honda spec, the second value is the actual)

    Honda Spec Tested Value
    Stator/resistance 100 - 400 ohm 257 ohm
    Stator/volts - - 27 volts @ idle

    Pulse Generator/resistance 30 ohm (+/- 10 ohm) 28.7 ohm
    Pulse Generator/air gap 0.3-0.4 mm .330 mm

    Spark Plug Gap 0.6 - 0.7 mm 0.62

    Ignition Coil/primary .2 - .4 ohm .3 - .4 ohm
    Ignition Coil/secondary 3 - 5 ohm 13.6 ohm @ plug end

    The old coil and wire/connector were within spec, but I was able to get an Ebay/Chinese coil/wire/connector for $11 delivered -- so figured it was money well spent if for no other reason than for diagnosis. The new coil also checks out when measured for resistance per the repair manual.

    Maybe not a bad idea to order a couple more CDI boxes ($5 each, delivered) just to be sure I'm not chasing my tail on that end.

    Thoughts?

    Hello


    Maybe it's not a bad idea to order a couple more CDI boxes ($5 each, delivered) just to be sure I'm not chasing my tail on that end.

    No comment besides it sounds like kbonly bought the last of the good ones.


    I know you have weak spark and i don't want to read all the posts again.

    I know you cleaned your advance, did you check the advance with a lite after?

    How much was it?

    How much is stock or how much is kb's?

  5. #20
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Hi Barnett.

    What do you mean that "Kbonly bought the last good ones"? Have others had problems with the Chinese CDIs?

    I tried to test the timing with a light, but had a hard time reading the marks. The flywheel doesn't seem to line up well the sight/access hole. I can just barely see them with aflashlight for static timing adjust/check. Any tips on seeing the marks better?

  6. #21
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    I haven't heard of anyone buying a bad cheap CDI, i guess its entirely possible that you got a bad one, but i don't think its too likely.

    You could try a high performance one since its the same five wire config and plug, but again not sure it would make a lot of difference. The rain finally stopped here, i should get some time later today to measure voltage to give you a comparison. If its not your CDI or ignition coil it has to be the source coil, but i will measure mine to give you a comparison!
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

  7. #22
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    What's interesting about the output of my source coil is that it stays at 27 volts regardless of RPM. The engine never gets past about 2500 -3000 rpm (estimate), but it's the same 27 volts whether at idle or 2500-3000.
    It should make more voltage at higher RPM, right?

  8. #23
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    Ok i finally have some hard numbers... Sorry it took so long, on and off rain here the last couple days and i don't have a garage to get it in out of the weather right now, i didn't feel like getting tickled by the source coil output holding a wet test lead again.. LOL

    At idle my source coil output on the Black/Red wire is 49-50v, it fluctuates a bit. At mid throttle its about 60v, and at full throttle its about 76v.

    So if you have 27v throughout its range my guess is that your source coil is bad, but before you dig into the motor try something... Disconnect the Black/Red wire and put your voltmeter on the output from the source coil without anything connected to it and crank it over with the electric start if you can, mine spinning over no load i was able to get about 38v. The reason i am saying to do this, is if the CDI truly is defective it could be shorting the output and giving you that lower voltage so just double check.

    The source coil and the recoil and left side gaskets is what you would need to repair this. If you have never taken the left side off before watch out for the electric starter gear reduction shafts and gears, and there is thrust washers and such that all need to go back in the correct order. If you can lean the trike on its right side so everything doesn't fall out, and also you don't have oil leaking everywhere that way.

    I would say at this point it has to be the coil... Dangit anyway, i try everything first before i got to open a motor up!
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

  9. #24
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Thanks KB, that's extremely helpful.

    I'll try the test you describe -- unhooking the CDI -- but I'd bet it will continue to point to the source coil, because I had the same 27 volt reading with the original Honda CDI and the Chinese CDI. I'll let you know what I find out.

    Thanks also for the tips on removing the left side cover. I haven't done that, so wouldn't have known to look out for the starter gears/thrust washer. Does the recoil need to come off the cover, or can it stay in place and come off as one piece?

  10. #25
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Hello


    My kb cdi comment was meant as a joke. I guess since you are frustrated with your bike that nothing is funny right now so sorry about that.

    CDI - I will say though that i do have a lot of experience with chinese parts and try to avoid them at all cost. You are replacing a severely over priced part that costs $200.00 with a severely under priced part that costs around $1.00 to make since the chinese must make at least 1.00 when they wholesale it and the retailer must make $2.00 when they retail it and since it cost you $5.00 including shipping it cost the seller .75 to ship it so he sold it for $4.25 for all his effort. Doesn’t this sound the least bit suspicious to anyone? I would certainly buy some spares if i were you.

    SOURCE COIL -As far as the coil goes, since it ohms correctly and the same as kb’s then it is almost impossible for it to be bad they don’t work that way. Did you check it cold and hot? Hopefully his “unplugged test will yield some good results, it’s a great idea.

    FLYWHEEL MAGNETISM – Another extremely remote but easy to test possibility is that your flywheel has lost some magnetism. The chances are close to 0 but why not test it? Just ohm your charge coil and voltage output with it connected and disconnected if possible and compare it to kb’s if it is the same your magnetism is good if it’s different it’s most likely your magnetism is low instead of a bad charge coil.

  11. #26
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    I have seen your issue before with the same running issues.
    Rev it up and runs like icky.

    Timing chains get loose and people do not adjust them.
    They jump time then run like cr@p.
    Then the manual comes out and they adjust the cam chain.
    Still runs bad but now you can not hear the chain noise.

    Pull the advance unit then the cam cover.
    Check your cam sprocket dot to the pointer arrow and the line marks vs the t on crank.

  12. #27
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Hello

    Forgot to mention, you tested your source coil and it tested good yet you bought another for around $25.00? You then tested your ign coil and it tested good yet you bought another Chinese one for $11.00 but you can't fully test a cdi, yet you haven't spent just $5.00 to buy another cdi to try?

  13. #28
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    Sounds like it jumped time.

    Take off the advancer and cover and check it.

  14. #29
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Hello


    Any tips on seeing the marks better?


    Put white out on the marks they lite right up with the timing lite.

  15. #30
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Hi again.

    I couldn't do the unplugged test of the source coil because my electric start isn't working -- and my meter can't keep up with the short burst of the pull start.

    So I ran into a problem installing the coil.

    Here's a pic of it:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As you can see, the tab for the red/black wire is in the middle on this coil instead of at one end. I bent that tab over so it wouldn't contact the flywheel (not knowing how much clearance there is in there). Then figured if I could mount it so that tab is on the underside that would be even better. But that little tab on the right is in the way, keeping it from being able to mount flat. I figured it's metal, mounted to the base, it must be just another ground that's used in a different engine. So I grab it with a pair of pliers, and break it off. Turns out there was a tiny wire attached to it -- looks to be winding wire. I tried soldering the wire back to the base -- and some solder did stick -- but now I have no spark, I guess I need to order another one. (It gets expensive doing dumb things!)

    I see one that's listed to fit these: HONDA ATC 110 81-85 / 185 80-83 / 200 81-86. That should work, right? Is there enough room for that tab to not contact the flywheel?

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