'84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition?

[tvpierce]

Hello


Any tips on seeing the marks better?


Put white out on the marks they lite right up with the timing lite.

I've done that on cars where marks are on the harmonic balancer/pulley. Will the white out stick to the oily surface in the ATC?

[barnett468]

I've done that on cars where marks are on the harmonic balancer/pulley. Will the white out stick to the oily surface in the ATC?

Absolutely, just spray flammable contact cleaner on them then finish cleaning/drying with a q tip. install white out on one mark let it air dry or use hair drier, once dry do the other one, it will not come off.

[barnett468]

I can't pull up the photo can you post it to flickr and post a link or post the actual photo here?

[tvpierce]

I can't pull up the photo can you post it to flickr and post a link or post the actual photo here?

I pulled the photo off ebay, but now can't find it.

Here's a link on Photo Bucket:

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps2c1e9b25.jpg

[my1423]

Hello,
I posted all this earlier but it said something about waiting for validation and never appeared.
So I did the short post.
Lets try it again.

I have seen these same symptoms before.
People never do maintenance. Timing chain stretches gets noisy and they keep riding.
Then it jumps time and runs badly.
They suddenly discover the adjustment reading the manual ect. Now its quiet but still out of time.
Usually they end up with a bent valve, but rarely it only jumps one tooth.
Sometimes they were off from a Badly stretched chain and worn guides.
When it revs up the advance kicks in and sputters for its too far advanced.
Many of the new china cdi have built in timing advance that the old ones do not have.
Put on the new unit and now you have a few extra degrees of timing and they run really bad.

To make the marks more visible the whiteout method posted works GREAT!
Use a wire brush first to really buff up the area then do all listed.

The other marks you need to get at are behind the advancer and timing cover on the head.
Round dot on the gear points at the arrow on the head.
At the same time the line by the T is in the window on the flywheel to the arrow.
If these do not line up it is out.

[barnett468]

Hello


Yes did you ever check the cam timing as my1423 suggested?

You should check everything you can before you rebuild the entire bike for no reason, even if it has nothing to do with spark. I've seen bikes that barely had visible spark but ran fine for years.

One of the other reasons i was hoping you would check the ign advance was for the reason my1423 mentioned. Let us know the total advance.

Place a small dot 1/4" before the full advance line and two dots 1/4" after it so if it advances and you still can't see the line you will still se the dots and know whether it is advanced or retarded too much.

[tvpierce]

Hello,
I posted all this earlier but it said something about waiting for validation and never appeared.
So I did the short post.
Lets try it again.

I have seen these same symptoms before.
People never do maintenance. Timing chain stretches gets noisy and they keep riding.
Then it jumps time and runs badly.
They suddenly discover the adjustment reading the manual ect. Now its quiet but still out of time.
Usually they end up with a bent valve, but rarely it only jumps one tooth.
Sometimes they were off from a Badly stretched chain and worn guides.
When it revs up the advance kicks in and sputters for its too far advanced.
Many of the new china cdi have built in timing advance that the old ones do not have.
Put on the new unit and now you have a few extra degrees of timing and they run really bad.

To make the marks more visible the whiteout method posted works GREAT!
Use a wire brush first to really buff up the area then do all listed.

The other marks you need to get at are behind the advancer and timing cover on the head.
Round dot on the gear points at the arrow on the head.
At the same time the line by the T is in the window on the flywheel to the arrow.
If these do not line up it is out.

Good info.

I'll check it out.

Thanks.

[barnett468]

Hello


Yes did you ever check the cam timing as my1423 suggested?

You should check everything you can before you rebuild the entire bike for no reason, even if it has nothing to do with spark. I've seen bikes that barely had visible spark but ran fine for years.

One of the other reasons i was hoping you would check the ign advance was for the reason my1423 mentioned. Let us know the total advance.

Place a small dot 1/4" before the full advance line and two dots 1/4" after it so if it advances and you still can't see the line you will still see the dots and know whether it is advanced or retarded too much.

[my1423]

Almost forgot, One other thing to check.
This would only come in if your timing light shows off, but the chain is lined up.
Only saw this once.
Atc went to the shop for a new cam chain.
After the bike did the sputter on top end and would not run right.
Shop did all kinds of things to try to get it to run.
They also had a big Honda street bike in for an ignition issue.
Both had problems.
Found out a shop boy was washing parts and accidentally mixed up the advance units from the 2 bikes.
They look the same, but the pin locations are slightly off.

[barnett468]

Hello

Looked at coil, not good need acid core solder and big solderiron to solder to lug.

You avoided my question, what overseas country did this coil come from?

What is it off of?

I forgot did you ohm it to see if it was the same?

[tvpierce]

Hello

Looked at coil, not good need acid core solder and big solder iron to solder to lug.

I had no problem soldering the wire to the lug. I used my old Weller "gun" style for the extra power.

You avoided my question, what overseas country did this coil come from?

What is it off of?

I forgot did you ohm it to see if it was the same?

The coil is new, Emgo brand. Made in Taiwan.

Yes, tested it off the bike: it was about 257 ohm, same as the one that was on there.

[barnett468]

I had no problem soldering the wire to the lug. I used my old Weller "gun" style for the extra power.





The coil is new, Emgo brand. Made in Taiwan.

Yes, tested it off the bike: it was about 257 ohm, same as the one that was on there.

I had no problem soldering the wire to the lug. I used my old Weller "gun" style for the extra power.


Yeah those work good they actually make at least 2 types.

xxxxx


The coil is new, Emgo brand. Made in Taiwan.

Oh, that's much better, you do realize that they are owned by China and just a few miles away?


xxxxx


Yes, tested it off the bike: it was about 257 ohm, same as the one that was on there.


Well that's good so you have 2 coils that ohm good but you broke the new one.

What is it designed to fit since it doesn't quite fit your bike?

xxxxx

Did you see my post about using dots on the flywheel?

Just curious, when do you think you will check ign timing and cam timing?

[tvpierce]

Yeah, I know. What's that doctor's moto: "Do no harm." (or something like that) Good thing I'm not a heart surgeon. :-)

Yes, I saw your post about dots pre and post TDC.

Right now the engine has no spark, so I can't check the advance... but I can check the cam timing as mentioned My1423. Hopefully get to it in the next few minutes. Will let you know what I find.

Thanks!

[tvpierce]

Forgot to add:

Here's a link to the ebay auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290907360216...84.m1439.l2648

The listing says: HONDA ATC 110 81-85 / 185 80-83 / 200 81-86

The box in the photo indicated "185/185s/200/200s.

[tvpierce]

Update:

Valve timing is good.

Removed the new source coil and tested it off the bike -- it now has very low resistance: 10-20 ohms. It was originally 250-260 when tested off the bike, so I buggered it up!

After more precise measuring, that Emgo coil will physically fit (the tab in the middle will not interfere with the flywheel), so I guess I'll order another one.

Once I get it running again, I can test the timing advance.

I'll report back what I find.

Open to any further thoughts until then.

Thanks everyone for all your help so far.