'84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition?

[tvpierce]

Update:

Was able to fix the new coil by re-soldering the winding connections back to the ground. I get 240 ohms resistance now, so should be good.

I checked the flywheel for magnetism. Appears to have a good strong magnetic field at each magnet.

Hope to get everything re-assembled, buttoned up and running this morning. Then I can check timing advance.

Will post back with results.

Thanks again!

[barnett468]

Hello

Yes it might feel strong and probably is ok and might be a waste of 2 minutes time but the only way to tell if it has as much as original is to do the test the way i described, low ,magnetism equals low voltage which is exactly what you seem to have even though your coils ohm ok. Do you understand how it works now? It doesn't matter to me if you don't want to test it, it's not my bike with a new chinese cdi two good ign coils [one new chinese] and 2 good source coils [one new taiwanese] and still have low voltage. There is a magnetism spec just like there is a coil ohm spec etc.

[tvpierce]

I'm glad you brought this up again.

I'm not sure I understand how this test works.


Instructions from your earlier post:

FLYWHEEL MAGNETISM – Another extremely remote but easy to test possibility is that your flywheel has lost some magnetism. The chances are close to 0 but why not test it? Just ohm your charge coil and voltage output with it connected and disconnected if possible and compare it to kb’s if it is the same your magnetism is good if it’s different it’s most likely your magnetism is low instead of a bad charge coil.

Thanks.

[barnett468]

Hello


FLYWHEEL MAGNETISM – Another extremely remote but easy to test possibility is that your flywheel has lost some magnetism. The chances are close to 0 but why not test it? Just ohm your charge coil and voltage output with it connected and disconnected if possible and compare it to kb’s if it is the same your magnetism is good if it’s different it’s most likely your magnetism is low instead of a bad charge coil.

PG 16-5 shows the static test for the charge coil and voltage regulator, try those then the magnet test. Others like kbonly know this system better than I do so if they see this they may help but I think you can do the following.

ACTIVE CHARGING CIRCUIT AMP OUTPUT TEST PG 16-4 IN MANUL

WIRING DIAGRAM – Pulse generator is a coil also but I don’t see a test for it, might have missed or may not be one see PG 18-5. Maybe you can ohm this and someone may ohm theirs for you also so you can compare .


1. set meter to like 25volts.

2. check voltage at battery

3. start bike check voltage at battery.

4. rev bike to around 3000 rpm and check voltage at battery.

5. let bike idle then unplug charge coil [hopefully it will stay running] and test voltage from charge coil at idle and 3000 rpm.

Post findings.

[tvpierce]

Hi Barnett.

I'm at work right now, so will break out the manual for the full write up, then perform the test.


As always, thanks!


BTW, the resistance spec for the pulse coil is 30 ohm (+/- 10 ohm). Mine tests at 27 ohm.

[kb0nly]

Just got back here... Wow a lot of posts went up while i was away!!

Sounds to me like it was a source coil issue then but now you need to test it again... As for the tab position, the 200ES truly is unique in that regard. All the replacements on the market are centered tab so they fit more model years, it will fit on the 200ES it just looks like it won't!

I doubt its the timing or timing chain, i mean you should check the chain tension when you get it running, but i doubt its timing. Timing wouldnt effect the voltage or the low spark, it would just be sparking at the wrong time.

Let me know what you have for voltage when you get it running with the new coil. It could be a bad flywheel magnet, but that would truly be a first for me, i haven't replaced a single flywheel due to bad magnets over the years, and i have dragged some trikes back from the brinks of storage hell, one we had to bead blast the flywheel to get all the rust off, still worked perfectly after!

[tvpierce]

Got real busy at work yesterday, so just got the engine back together this morning. Checked that I had spark at the plug -- I did -- but it wouldn't start. Checked spark again, and no spark... so I now have intermittent spark.

I break out the meter.

I have current coming out of the Source Coil.

I have current from the Source Coil going into the CDI.

I have current from the Pulse Coil going into the CDI.

But no current coming out of the CDI to the ignition coil.

Seems to point to a bad CDI (even though it's a new Chinese unit).

Have a couple more Chinese CDIs on order. Might be here this weekend.

I'm so close I can smell it! :-)

Will keep you posted.

[barnett468]

Got real busy at work yesterday, so just got the engine back together this morning. Checked that I had spark at the plug -- I did -- but it wouldn't start. Checked spark again, and no spark... so I now have intermittent spark.

I break out the meter.

I have current coming out of the Source Coil.

I have current from the Source Coil going into the CDI.

I have current from the Pulse Coil going into the CDI.

But no current coming out of the CDI to the ignition coil.

Seems to point to a bad CDI (even though it's a new Chinese unit).

Have a couple more Chinese CDIs on order. Might be here this weekend.

I'm so close I can smell it! :-)

Will keep you posted.

Hello


Just curious the source of your voltage is now coming from your battery with the key on because nyou no longer have spark?

What does your source coil ohm to now?

I think your current lack of spark may still be the source coil since you had to resolder it and it is the only thing you messed with this time.

You must know you can’t check the voltage regulator function etc. if it is not running.

I personally would reinstall the original source coil [since it still ohmed ok] for the new cdi test and if it still doesn’t run right then try the new Taiwanese source coil again.

[tvpierce]

Hi Barnett.

There is no battery connected.

Source Coil has a resistance of 240 ohms. And while I can't get an accurate reading on Source Coil output voltage, my meter can detect the presence of voltage when I use the pull starter.

[kb0nly]

Hello


Just curious the source of your voltage is now coming from your battery with the key on because nyou no longer have spark?

What does your source coil ohm to now?

I think your current lack of spark may still be the source coil since you had to resolder it and it is the only thing you messed with this time.

You must know you can’t check the voltage regulator function etc. if it is not running.

I personally would reinstall the original source coil [since it still ohmed ok] for the new cdi test and if it still doesn’t run right then try the new Taiwanese source coil again.

The 200ES has a separate lighting/alternator coil and ignition/source coils. I had one running for a while that didn't even have the lighting/alternator coils in the motor, took a while to find a good used one to replace the one that burnt up.

That's the nice thing about them actually, the two systems are totally separate so there is no cross checking one system when the other isn't working right.

The intermittent spark could still be the source coil, but try replacing the CDI with another one and see what happens, if you still get the same results then it must be a connection somewhere or the source coil yet. Have you tried swapping the pickup coil for the advancer? If you have a spare one i would try that to, i have had that cause intermittent spark before as well.

[tvpierce]

Update:

So my new Chinese CDIs came in the mail yesterday. I had other plans for the evening, so just had a few minutes to put one in. Before I swapped the part, I checked spark. It was intermittent. Tried starting the engine, and it sputtered once, then nothing. Swapped the CDI, and it fired right up, first pull. It's idling very high (even though the idle screw is turned all the way out), and got pretty hot -- pretty quickly: the exhaust header was glowing red within about 5 minutes.

So there's fire in the hole, but seemingly a carburetion issue. This is with the new Chinese carb on. I may switch back to the OEM Keihin carb (which has a fresh rebuild kit in it).

The new Source Coil is putting out 33 volts at the high idle -- I didn't check to see if it fluctuated with engine RPM. Nowhere near the 50 volts at idle, and 76 at WOT that KB was getting, but hey, it's sparking and running.

Will poke around a bit more this morning and report back what I find.

[barnett468]

Hello

Check the timing it sounds like from this description and the one you posted on the other guys post the total advance is WAY off. I would not touch the jets until you do or you might be chasing your tail all year on it. The cdi may have some advance as another previous member mentioned. If you jet it without checking the timing and it still runs bad i'll just wish you luck..

[tvpierce]

Hi Barnett.

Excellent point re: timing. While I had the cover off replacing the Source Coil, I marked the flywheel with white-out as you suggested. I just didn't have time to check it last night. Heading out there now.

Will let you know what I find.

Thanks.

[barnett468]

Hello

Ok cool, easy to forget things when one is excited and there is so much information! If it has too much advance it is the cdi and the last hope i have heard of for reducing cdi advance by adding resistors to each side of the source coil if it has two wires. i have an article on it. kbonly may also know. you could also lock up or reduce the centrifugal advance until it reaches the correct total advance or just buy the correct JAPANESE CDI, lol.

[kb0nly]

If its running hot and the idle isn't coming down i would suspect air leak or mixture screw set too lean, also it could be the main needle isn't on the right clip position or a jet thats too small. The chinese carbs do work good, generally when someone asks me why it won't run right i find another problem related to them replacing the carb, bad o-ring on the intake, cracked intake, etc.

Check the timing for sure, its easier than you think, turn the flywheel with the recoil until you get it to the F mark, then with the flywheel on the F the advancer and the pickup aka pulser coil should line up, they both have a line on them. If not loosen the screws for the pickup and turn it to match the advancer. The advancer is keyed to the camshaft, and i wouldn't bother removing the CDI base to check the cam unless its like way way way off, to the point that the pickup can't be adjusted to line up the mark to the advancer.

Sounds like you mainly have a fuel/carb issue now. If you removed the intake from the head make sure the O-ring on the front of the rubber intake is intact and good, they flatten with age and won't seal anymore. If thats good check over the intake good for cracks, if no problems there then its in the carb. Compare the jets to the stock carb, check the needle setting, adjust the mixture screw by going full clockwise til lightly seated then turn back out counter clockwise 2 1/4 turns, see how its idling now, turn the mixture screw clockwise very slowly until it sputters and dies, then from that point back it out counterclockwise one turn and you should be good there.

Check the spark plug also, if its lean the plug should tell the tale also, the fact that the pipe was that hot it must have been lean running for sure.

At least you got fire now!!!! Now i know at least one of these CDI's can be bad new, i think your voltage is still a tad low from the source coil though.