'84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition?

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce

Update: So my new Chinese CDIs came in the mail yesterday. I had other plans for the evening, so just had a few minutes to put one in. Before I swapped the part, I checked spark. It was intermittent. Tried starting the engine, and it sputtered once, then nothing. Swapped the CDI, and it fired right up, first pull. It's idling very high (even though the idle screw is turned all the way out), and got pretty hot -- pretty quickly: the exhaust header was glowing red within about 5 minutes. So there's fire in the hole, but seemingly a carburetion issue. This is with the new Chinese carb on. I may switch back to the OEM Keihin carb (which has a fresh rebuild kit in it). The new Source Coil is putting out 33 volts at the high idle -- I didn't check to see if it fluctuated with engine RPM. Nowhere near the 50 volts at idle, and 76 at WOT that KB was getting, but hey, it's sparking and running. Will poke around a bit more this morning and report back what I find.

WTF did you change your CARB before trying the new CDI, did you think the new carb would make your missing spark return? Please don’t change any “bleepin” thing until someone suggests it. It makes it next to IMPOSSIBLE for at least me to help people that do that and I have a new fancy TV I could be watchin instead of undoing peoples “fubars”. See the info I posted at bottom of post.

Hello It sounds like a CDI to me so far, read the 3ww link below on where to buy a Chinese one for $5.00 and connect it to your system if you want to try a cheap way out. WARNING, buy a couple because you might get a faulty new one. I would buy a known good used one if possible.
ATC 200 WEAK/NO SPARK LINK http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ng...-Ignition

I have very rarely seen a CDI on a 200s go bad. Have you disconnected the kill switch and checked for spark? I have seen dozens of kill switches go bad, but on the 200s's I have only ever seen 2 go bad. 1 of those was because of a engine fire. LOL I wished you lived close to me. I would have you some spark within an hour. Howdy

Exact opposite here, i have replaced a half dozen CDI's on 185's and 200's in the last year alone. Even one on a 125M also.

I posted the quotes above simply to show whoever is interested how 1 person can have one experience and another can have one that is EXACTLY opposite. I suggest to anyone with a problem that they consider ALL suggestions given and do ALL tests and check ALL things suggested by everyone no matter how unrelated to the problem they may seem to be. Keep in mind, in the end whether your bike ever runs right again or not has no effect on our lives at ALL just yours. Please don’t be like the _____ in the link at the bottom of my post.


Kbonly, below is the post I’m not sure you saw.

My new cheap CDIs arrived in the mail today. I was just itchin' to see if I could get mine to work. I went out immediately when I got home. Tested spark with the first/already installed cheap CDI: intermittent/weak spark with the plug removed, wouldn't start with the plug in. Installed the new/cheap CDI, and it fired up immediately and ran strong. It still idles high and has a mid-throttle stumble, but I believe those are in the carb... so I'll see if I can get those sorted. We'll see. Just pointing out that it CAN be in the CDI... but still, check everything.

The reason I thought his advance might be the the most likely cause of his problem [even though it might seem unlikely] is because of the following.

a. His pipe is getting red hot but it has a mid throttle stumble.

b. The stumble suggests either a too rich or an improper advance condition.

c. The red hot pipe suggests a lean or improper advance condition.

d. The fact that his stumble is at mid throttle [maybe 2500 rpm] suggests to me that it is more likely the timing then the jetting.

e. If a lean condition was causing his red hot pipe condition it would not “stumble” at all, it would have a huge lean spot and have a lean “bog”.


If one thinks this it’s easy to help someone read the following posts, at least the ones with the “#” next to them, keep in mind these are only 13 posts out of 102. I told him around post #50 his CDI was the most likely cause of his problem. Problems helping members like the one in the link below are NOT an isolated incident.

#76, 78, 80, 83, #84, 86, #88, 93, #96, 97, #99, #100, #101

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ht=splangeland

[tvpierce]

Hi Barnett.

Easy there Hoss! :-)

Points well taken about approaching diagnostics logically and methodically. While I don't expect you or anyone (except me, since it's my trike) to remember all the minutia of a 60+ post thread -- I believe we've been pretty logical and methodical here.

Just to go over how we got to where we are now: This thread started out as an off-throttle stumble/bog/weak spark issue. With the help of 3WW members -- you included -- I confirmed the resistance of the Source Coil, Pulse Coil, and Ignition Coil were within spec. Given the age of the trike, I felt it reasonable to replace the inexpensive/common failure ignition parts -- figuring even if they haven't failed, it wouldn't hurt to "freshen" the ignition system. Replaced the Ignition Coil: no change. Replaced the CDI (with Chinese unit): no improvement, in fact seemed to make the stumble/bog a bit worse.
All this time mind you, the engine would start fine, and idle fine... but run very rich (black fouled plug in short time). I had the carb apart couple of times, and it appeared clean and in good working order, but still decided it was prudent to install a carb rebuild kit (Moose Racing) to ensure everything was good. The carb rebuild did slightly improve the "crispness" of the fueling, but the stumble/bog continued. This is the point at which I ordered the Chinese carb. I still think this was I logical course of action given that the carb is 29 years old, and although I found no signs of excessive wear, it could be worn from use.
I installed the new carb, and found no improvement in the off idle performance. It did however increase the idle speed to about where it is now -- and I could not adjust it lower (idle speed set screw all the way out).

While checking/confirming voltage/current through the entire ignition system (using a meter to confirm output/input values at the Source Coil, Pulse Coil, CDI Ignition Coil, and Spark Plug) the "weak spark" condition developed into an "very intermittent" spark condition -- to the point that the engine would no longer start or run. Testing pointed to he CDI (input voltage was present from the Source Coil and the Pulse Coil, but no output voltage to the Ignition Coil). New CDI and new Source Coil were ordered. Source Coil was replaced: didn't correct the problem (didn't expect it to correct the no-spark issue, but hoped it would strengthen spark once spark was restored). Installed new CDI: spark restored! And appears to be at full strength.

This gets us to where we are now: Good spark, easy starting, strong idle -- although very high and apparently lean.

I really appreciate the help I've received from you and other members. Hope that helps clarify where we are, and how we got here.

Thanks.

(More info re: status of ignition advance in my next post.)

[tvpierce]

Update:

With the engine running, the timing is advanced at high idle. I can correct the advance for idle by retarding the Pulse Coil to its limit, but then it still over-advances when trying to accelerate. I tried wiring the mechanical advance closed, and that did help reduce advance at idle, but then the timing won't advance at all as RPMs go up... which indicates to me that if there is in fact advance built into the CDI, that it's static, not a dynamic advance curve that is affected by RPM. Does that seem correct?

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce


Just curious, did you read the posts noted in the string at the bottom of the page? If not you might just for entertainment value. I understand you being impatient but your interpretation of being logical vs that of people that have years of experience doing this, some at the highest levels may vary just a bit. Of course it’s your bike but everyone except I and one other member abandoned the guy in the link at the bottom of the post for obvious reasons that are obvious when reads just the few posts I mentioned. I know KB has spent a lot of time on this and I can’t speak for him but again as for me it doesn’t help me to help you if change stuff without first checking the timing. I personally don’t consider removing ORIGINAL Japanese made parts from your Japanese motorcycle that test perfectly good according to the manual and then replacing them with AFTERMARKET parts for no GOOD reason at all with ones made in China and TAIWAN. If I remember correctly I was the one that suggested your NEW $5.00 [shipping included] CHINESE CDI was likely bad and KB said he hasn’t seen a bad one yet. Like I said in the beginning of my previous post, different people have different experiences and sometimes know different things. Of course we don’t know if your NEW $5.00 [shipping included] CHINESE CDI was defective or if it’s damage was caused by your breaking and installation of you new TAIWAINESE source coil but it’s failure coincided EXACTLY with that event according to your post, Hmmmm. Like I said I could just be watching my new fancy tv if you prefer. I know you will EVENTUALLY get it running properly someday with or without me and I have no intentions or desire to try and take over his “job” here and it looks to me like KB will hang in there with you anyway. So I’m happy to continue to contribute what little I may be able to as long as I don’t get frustrated, lol. There’s several other members here that could use whatever knowledge and experience I may have to help them mess their bikes up, lol.

It’ sounds close now probably ign timing/advance possibly from the new CHINESE CDI as I suggested or other non Japanese electrical parts and/or jetting. Now watch it will be a defective spark plug, lol.

Regarding your “minutia” [very good, I had to look that up in Websters, lol but it did infer that in a case where there is more than just 1 minutia being referred to that one should use the plural form], yes there has been a lot of info and a lot of posts and it looks like your problem is getting narrowed down now so hopefully for all it doesn’t end up beating the record below of 100 before it is finally fixed.

RICH CONDITION – Yes I came in late and didn’t read ALL the posts because it was a bit more than I wanted to really do at the time but I can say that I would have had you check ign timing, cam timing, carb jet size and install orig sizes if bike is stock, check float level with a clear plastic tube to insure it was not too high even if floats themselves were was set correctly,check amount of play between carb slide and body [this and the jet needle and needle jet are the only things that wear out in a carb] engine compression, valve settings and air leaks with flammable brake fluid. Once ALL these things were good I then would have addressed the weak spark issue if it still ran bad. My theory is if it ain’t broke don’t replace it with CHINESE and TAIWANESE parts, lol. I hope you did ALL these before you simply started changing electrical parts.


1. If it’s electrical and one even looks at it, it will go bad.

2. The purpose of an electrical partis to develop an intermittent problem so it’s near impossible to test for a problem

3. It’s a JAPANESE bike so if was mine I personally am not going to put CHINESE and/or TAIWANESE parts on it.

[barnett468]

Update:

With the engine running, the timing is advanced at high idle. I can correct the advance for idle by retarding the Pulse Coil to its limit, but then it still over-advances when trying to accelerate. I tried wiring the mechanical advance closed, and that did help reduce advance at idle, but then the timing won't advance at all as RPMs go up... which indicates to me that if there is in fact advance built into the CDI, that it's static, not a dynamic advance curve that is affected by RPM. Does that seem correct?

Hello


I am a bit confused by your post, please answer the following questions if you want my help.
With your pulse coil fully retarded does the advance on your flywheel show that it is correct for idle? Yes or No.

It this IMPOSSIBLE for the timing to be stock at idle based on your description unless the max advance limiter on your mechanical advance is worn beyond the service limit allowing it to advance beyond factory spec.

If it is still advanced more than stock at idle with mechanical advance PROPERLY locked in the “0” position than you MUST either REPLACE YOUR $5.00 CHINES CDI with a CDI that does NOT have a built in ignition advance [one CDI that I know of that meets this criteria is an ORIGINAL JAPANESE HONDA one] or try to reduce it using matched resistors [value to be determined through testing] as I mentioned in post #59 [good luck with that].

What carb is currently on it?

Did you check the items on your NON CHINESE carb that I said I would have suggested you check and correct in post #62?

I personally would leave whatever carb is currently on it and NOT change another single thing UNTIL your advance is PROPERLY fixed but go ahead and do whatever you want, I still have my new TV to watch.

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce


If I remember correctly you also said you had only about 1/2 the voltage from BOTH your source coils that KB had so if that is the case it’s remotely possible that after you get your advance issue corrected you may still have an engine stumble and what APPEARS to be a rich condition due to insufficient voltage from your source coil. This stuff isn’t complicated at all is it?

Does this now mean that KB’s CHINESE CDI also has advance built into it and if so is his bike running well because he retarded his electrical advance via the pulse coil and his mechanical advance just happens to stick where it only allows for partial advance?

If his does not have advance built into it and yours apparently does then why is that?

Does KB have the exact same CDI as you do?

I now starting to think you might get a bit closer to 100 posts [like the other guy I mentioned] than I previously thought you would before this is over.

[barnett468]

Hello tv pierce


If you check your advance with a timing lite and with your mechanical advance locked securely in the 0 advance position then it means that whatever advance your CHINESE CDI does possess is fully advanced at idle.

Since this makes no sense it makes to design a CDI this way it starts to make me wonder if your CDI might not have any advance at all but instead simply has a certain minimum voltage at which it will fire and the adjustment range of the pulse coil is designed to work within that range.

Irregardless, if your timing is still advanced slightly at idle then if there is room to slot your pulse coil mounting plate enough to get the timing where it needs to be and you don’t see any ignition advance at high throttle then you can simply run your mechanical advance as it was designed to be [not wired] and your timing problem will be taken care of. You could also open the CDI and simply change the value of whatever part is in there that controls this until it fires within the adjust range of the pulse coil.

I suggest that if your timing at idle is advanced more than stock spec and there is NO additional advance at high throttle that you try to make the pulse coil more adjustable so you can get it timed correctly at idle then unwire your mechanical advance and check with timing lite again.

If full advance is still more than stock then your mechanical advance is worn out and needs repair or replacement.

[kb0nly]

tvpierce - as far as i have been able to ascertain the CDI units don't have any advance built into them, there is some models that have an adjustment but these are a very basic model with no timing alteration. You might actually have a bad advancer, the springs are weak allowing it to advance when it shouldn't be. I replaced mine last year because it was worn out and wobbling badly, a lot of guys have found them with broken parts and weak springs so i would check it to see if the springs properly return it when you turn it clockwise by hand it should spring back.

barnett468 - if i jumped over your posts it was because they were too damn long... I don't know what the whole rant was about there but i don't have time to read five posts that are like a half page long.

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce


I’ll answer your static vs dynamic timing question to the best of my ability shortly.


KBONLY

tvpierce - as far as i have been able to ascertain the CDI units don't have any advance built into them, there is some models that have an adjustment but these are a very basic model with no timing alteration. You might actually have a bad advancer, the springs are weak allowing it to advance when it shouldn't be. I replaced mine last year because it was worn out and wobbling badly, a lot of guys have found them with broken parts and weak springs so i would check it to see if the springs properly return it when you turn it clockwise by hand it should spring back.

barnett468 - if i jumped over your posts it was because they were too damn long... I don't know what the whole rant was about there but i don't have time to read five posts that are like a half page long.

No problem thanks for mentioning it. The rant was minor and only 3 lines and was nothing meant against him in general as he is obviously trying very hard and is at least able and willing to buy new parts whether he needs them or not, lol. Most the rest was info.

He appears to have too much advance at IDLE with the mechanical advance locked in 0 [using wire] as I suggested he do and the pulse coil retarded to it’s limit. So according to his description something in his CDI must be causing the spark to be fired at the wrong time. After reading his description I personally thought there was no advance in his CDI also but instead something that caused it to fire at a time that is different than the original CDI.

It seems like either this is the problem [built in CDI firing time] or his description is inaccurate, but his description seemed pretty good to me just lacking in a few details.

Again I readily admit am not the king of electrical nor do I want to be but I do know a lot [but not everything] about ign advances and rev limiters etc. Not only is it hard for me to believe a $5.00 [including shipping] CHINESE CDI would have an ign advance it’s hard for me to believe it has anything in it at all besides just AIR! Lol.

I just hope he is able to get it going soon now after all this and doesn’t do things in the process that haven’t been suggested that may make it difficult for some others to diagnose his problem, that’s all.

[barnett468]

Hello KBONLY


I am at least aware that the pulse coil regulates the time a charge is sent to the CDI telling it to fire so since it now appears by his description to fire out of the adjustment range of the pulse coil [too soon] it seems to me that there must be another feature in the CDI that also regulates that, maybe a resistor or capacitor etc?

[tvpierce]

With your pulse coil fully retarded does the advance on your flywheel show that it is correct for idle? Yes or No.

Yes

It this IMPOSSIBLE for the timing to be stock at idle based on your description unless the max advance limiter on your mechanical advance is worn beyond the service limit allowing it to advance beyond factory spec.

That can't be ruled out. I see below that both you and KB suggest that it's certainly something to investigate further.

What carb is currently on it?

The Chinese carb.

[tvpierce]

He appears to have too much advance at IDLE with the mechanical advance locked in 0 [using wire] as I suggested he do and the pulse coil retarded to it’s limit.

Hi Barnett.

That's incorrect. With the mechanical advance wired shut, the timing at idle is good. (but of course it doesn't advance with RPMs, so stumbles severely)

That does seem to point hard to the mechanical advance, doesn't it?

[barnett468]

Hi Barnett. With the mechanical advance wired shut, the timing at idle is good. (but of course it doesn't advance with RPMs, so stumbles severely) That does seem to point hard to the mechanical advance, doesn't it?

Hello tvpierce


Thanks for the replies.

My opinion is that it totally eliminates the possibility of the CDI having any advance [or at least any additional after whatever your idle rpm is] unless the CDI advance is coming in AFTER the rpm at which the engine stumbles and you simply can’t see it with the timing lite because the stumble is so sever it is preventing the engine from ever reaching that rpm, however again it seems highly unlikely for a $5.00 CHINESE CDI [shipping included] to have an advance. I now they can build things cheap but this is beyond ludicrous and actually hope it does work out.

ENGINE PERFORMANCE – Please forgive my forgetfulness regarding this, as you said it is hard to remember the minutia’s [plural as recommended by Websters, lol.] in all the posts but…

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] does your pipe get red and if so under what condition and how long does it take?

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] does your bike run well or have a flat spot [like lean] or a burble] like rich? ¼, ½ or full throttle acceleration.

If it burbles/stumbles, is it worse or less than with the mechanical advance wired closed at 0 advance?

With your static [idle] timing set correctly AND your mechanical advance capable of advancing fully [unwired] approximately how far beyond the factory timing mark does it fire ie. 1/4” 1/2”? I can’t possibly imagine it has more than ¼” more because even that would be an enormous amount for the mechanical advance to wear. Now you can tell me you have an adjustable timing lite and it over advances “X” degrees, lol.

[barnett468]

Does it run better with or without the advance and if so what are the performance issues?

[barnett468]

Hello tvpierce


Does it look like there is some way to LIMIT the amount of total advance the mechanical advance has buy installing a nut and bolt in the advance slot or something? If so try that then check total advance with your lite.

If you can do that then check to see about when your total advance comes in if you want. Or just see if your advance springs feel loose. If it has full advance too soon it will cause detonation and other problems too.

If you can get the timing close then I would suggest trying to fix/jet whatever carb you want to run in the end if need be.