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Thread: '84 Honda 200ES, Poor Running... Ignition?

  1. #136
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Hello tvpierce


    Quote Originally Posted by tvpierce View Post
    Barnett, I know you suggested flammable carb cleaner, but I don't have any.
    How do you expect to set anything on fire that way, lol. I personally don’t think that even if you had an air leak it would not cause the problems you have.


    Just wanted to quickly say I looked at the video, good job. I’ll listen again a few times. If I forget about all the previous posts I would say it sounds like the cam timing is retarded and it may have an electrical miss. I know the choke affects it a little and might appear to be lean to some but I don’t think that’s your biggest problem. I know you have already checked some of the following but I would do it again if it was me. It sounds like it may have a major ex leak which can cause problems and it sounds like it rattles a bit intermittently maybe timing chain slap but it’s hard for me to hear due to the audio. Also sounds like it may be popping slightly out ex valve, hard to tell.

    It obviously has an initial “bog” off idle until rpms reach mid then it has a definite miss that sounds electrical to me. Out of the hundreds of bikes and cars I have worked on I have never had a lean condition cause a severe “miss” like that, but there’s always a first time.

    Listen for ex leak at head pipe, you can use a 2’ long piece of vacuum line as a stethoscope if need be. Stick one end CLOSE to your ear NOT in it and stick the other end between the ex flange and head. Move hose slowly, if it has a big leak it will be VERY loud in your ear. You can use this around intake boot to find air leaks sometimes too.

    Hook up a timing lite in the dark and rev it up and see if the lite “misses” or “falters” when it gets to mid throttle. If it does you at least have an electrical problem for sure. Might be able to see better if the lite “misses” if you point it at the white marks you put on your advance. If it misses I don’t think the miss is caused by carburetion so I might find the cause of that before jetting, hard to say.

    Install the 3rd new CDI you have.

    Maybe as a last resort get another flywheel. I agree it sounds nuts but if I remember correctly both you and KB and another member ALL have source coils that ohm nearly identical. You yourself have your orig and a new $19.95 [shipping not included] TAIWANESE one and both yours read the same ohms and voltage which is 40% less volts then kb's and the other guys. Unless KB or another electrical expert tell's me differently, any coils, big small etc., that have an equal amount of a resistance [ohms] will produce basically the exact amount of voltage when the same flywheel is spun around them at the same RPM. You say your spark is still weak so who knows, maybe the magnetism gremlins came and stole some of yours.

    I would check cam timing again. Can you post a photo of cam gear when T is in window on flywheel?

    Check valve clearance again

    Make sure plug has no carbon [black].

    Try old needle/seat to raise float level as we talked about.

    See if it will idle lower than that and see if idle mix screw has any effect. That is not a low idle to me.

    I personally would determine the timing at idle at the very least by using the F in the window and marking advancer/housing method I suggested but advance at full rpm won’t hurt but. I know I keep asking about this and even I don’t think it’s a problem but at this point I think it’s time to check everything.

    If you want to you can also possibly put a white mark on the cam gear and watch it with the lit to see if it moves at high rpm. If it does then your chain is loose due to adjuster probably but this should not cause much of a problem so I think it’s low on the list of priorities.

    If it still runs bad I would remove carb and ex, put T in window with piston at tdc then spray carb cleaner [not brake cleaner] or your handy WD40 into ports until there is a little “pool”. If it disappears quickly you have a big valve leak.

    FYI – You do NOT get a second set of free steak knives if you reach 200 posts, only one set per contest winner, lol.

  2. #137
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    Just watched your vid.
    Yuck!!!!
    Got enough timing chain slack in there! Noisy cha chink sound is slack!
    I think you need to put a new chain in it and while at that pull the cam and make sure there are lobes on it!
    Bet you got a flat lobe.
    When you do the chain you have to pull the stator cover and flywheel.
    Inspect the bits in there and post pics.

    You can pull the cam fairly easy.
    Pull the advancer like you did for the pics of the gear.
    Remove the 2 cam gear bolts.
    Wiggle the sprocket off.
    Put the chain behind the sprocket and put wire though the chain.
    Pull the cam and gear.

    Look in and check the rockers.

  3. #138
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    Just watched the video here myself, definitely needs a new timing chain by the rattle. Do it now before it jumps the chain and you get a nice case of piston meets valve... LOL

    I haven't heard a quiet 200 valvetrain yet, they all clickety clack to some extent, but that one definitely needs some work. At a minimum it needs a chain and tensioner, then check the cam and valve adjustment again.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

  4. #139
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Man, compared to my Honda CX500 and my former Kawasaki Concours, this engine is whisper-quiet. I thought the valve chain and valves were perfectly fine.

    Thanks for the info.

    I'll get the parts on order.

  5. #140
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    Its normal for them to have some noise, but when you rev it you can hear the chain slap. The only worry is it jumping teeth, and then your out of time, if its spinning fast when the chain jumps it will have enough momentum even if it dies to come around and smack the valves, seen it...

    I think once you do the timing chain you will set, it will also clean up the slight timing issue you pictured as well and get the cam back into spec. Oh, don't buy the spendy flywheel puller for the 200 motors, all it is, and all you need, is a large metric bolt to pop the flywheel off. I forget the size i will have to grab mine tomorrow or search on here. I have a couple of them in the tool bin.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

  6. #141
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Does the head have to come off to replace the guides?

  7. #142
    Join Date
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    Yep... The front guide is keyed into a recess on the top of the cylinder and its pinched in place with the head. Look at the diagram in the manual you will see what i mean, it has a molded in pin that sits in a groove. You have to pull the head to replace the tensioner guide anyway, i have had people tell me they were able to twist and turn and wiggle it down into place but it isn't easy. Your better off just pulling the head, replacing the chain, tensioner and guide set, new head gasket, and slap it back together. The rocker cover doesn't have a gasket, needs sealant. I use high temp RTV but sparingly applied, when you get to that point i can post a picture to illustrate that. Haven't had a problem yet doing them this way, some say only use hondabond sealant, if you can source it locally then its good, but its not much different than a quality high temp silicone. I usually use the gold but the orange rtv is fine at these temps also.

    Don't forget the exhaust gasket, its a copper donut that goes into the head, the old one will be squished in there and you will have to pick it out. Also make sure you replace that o-ring on the front of the intake.

    Now here is the worst news... You will HAVE to pull the motor from the frame to do this. There is not enough room to pull the head it will hit the down tube of the frame, been there done that, like four times now on the ES. The best i can say, its a PITA... LOL

    The worst part is getting it back in, the driveshaft lineup and getting it back into place is the worst because the motor won't drop down into place. The best way i found when reinstalling the motor is to get it in, line up the driveshaft and once its started roll the whole thing front to back while pushing back on the motor, eventually it will pop into place. You have to fight against the spring on the driveshaft, its a tough spring and it takes a lot of force to push it back.

    As for pulling it, i can pull one in like twenty mins top. Disconnect the fuel line from the carb, remove the tank and seat, disconnect the positive cable from the battery for safety, unbolt the intake at the head, you leave the intake and carb hanging from the airbox, unbolt the exhaust, if you have stock exhaust you have to also loosen the clamp that holds the muffler onto the header pipe and then remove the header pipe and leave the muffler, disconnect the wiring to the pickup coming out where the advancer is, disconnect all the wiring by the subtrans lever, it all just unplugs, disconnect the cable from the starter, remove the band clamps from the driveshaft boot, i just loosen them and slide them back onto the driveshaft tube then push back the boot as far as it will go, now you unbolt. I generally start with the hanger bolt up on the head, then the front mount bolts and plates, then the two bolts in the back top and bottom. After its all loose you just tip it to the left and slide it out to the left, it will come right out. Be ready, that sucker is heavy!! LOL

    I have pulled them, replaced the top end, and put them back in within 3-4 hours, the 200ES by far is the worst though for reinstalling the motor because of the driveshaft. The chain drive 200's i could do in like a couple hours.. LOL
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1984 Honda ATC200ES "Big Red"
    1982 ATC200E "Hondie"
    1988 TRX300FW "Project Quad" Still in progress....

  8. #143
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    ...the 200ES by far is the worst though for reinstalling the motor because of the driveshaft.
    Thanks KB... I think! :-)


    So you could do it in a day... probably a full weekend project for a first-timer. Not too awfully bad.

    This may put this 143 post marathon on hold for a bit while parts are ordered, time is carved out and such.

    I have to re-roof my garage, and tackle a few other projects, so it may be a while before I post back with an update.

    Until then, thanks all.

    jp

  9. #144
    tvpierce is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    For archiving purposes, here's the link to the follow-up thread.

    After replacing literally every ignition component, and the carb... it was the exhaust!

    Thanks to everyone for helping me get this figured out!

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