Old Three Wheeler Racing

[barnett468]

Hello Poco Loco

Barnnett and Joesph, you guys should dig up some old pics and put them on. Would be nice to to see the old stuff.

Unfortunately, I never took any because I though there would always be another day to do that if I wanted but I bought a couple from the local track photographer but unfortunately lost them. I just wasn't really one for having pictures of that stuff or myself but I love looking at others. The pictures I do have I can't post, lol.

[Rlaymon]

Barnett468,

They absolutely had an open class back in the days. As a member of Team Green do you remember a guy named Tim Helter? His number was 007 if I remember correctly. He had a Tecate with a KX 500 engine in it. I remember Honda had a few open bikes as well. There were all types of custom 3 wheelers back then with all sizes of engines in them. A friend of mine even raced a little known brand called Tiger who made a 500. I rode it once, boy was it fast but had some scary handling. I think he got rid of it and went back to his Tecates. We had a local builder not to far from me named Chuck Edwards who stuffed a CR 480 engine in a 81/82 ATC 250R frame and raced it. Someone mentioned a guy named Barry McCarty, he was sponsored by Chuck for a few years. Those were the good old days when you could build what you want and race it. Not like today with all these class rules for the squares ha ha

[barnett468]

Hello Rlaymon




The following info is not intended to contradict you in any way, it along with my previous comments are based upon my experience only, not that of any one else’s.

They absolutely had an open class back in the days.

I’ve made my reply to this. I left Kawi in 88 and have no idea what happened after that. If you personally raced a bike in an over 250 cc class at a National event or saw a National class for them then I wouldn’t dare say you were wrong, it just didn’t happen where I was at as far as I know.

As a member of Team Green

I was only an official member of Team Green twice, once to wrench for the Nationals as mentioned above and the other was to be part of a 3 man Team consisting of Jimmie White, Donnie Luce and myself to race the annual Perris GP in So Cal. It rained like no tomorrow. Honda was there with their usual dancing girls, space heaters, tons of spare parts and a huge pop up. We were there with the Team Green box van, a tiny 12’x12’ pop up and not even a spare spark plug. We rode Jimmies bike. He got the holeshot, I rode second and Donnie rode last. Never saw Honda until after we were all sitting under our pop up again. They did not have mechanical problems. I think they were not mud riders, just a bunch of Nancy's, lol. I am glad the track surface was not hard and dry though.

I was sponsored by Kawi R and D which is a division of Kawi Japan, not Kawi USA, It’s complicated.

do you remember a guy named Tim Helter? His number was 007 if I remember correctly.

I did not know him or know of any association he had with Team Green. These things were none of my concern.

He had a Tecate with a KX 500 engine in it.

This would not have been built or sponsored by Kawi while I was there for the following reasons. All the mfg’s only sponsored production models that were available to the public. There is no point in building and/or sponsoring a bike the public couldn’t buy. I would have seen them build it since we only had one machine shop and I was in it almost every day. They were not capable of building one so they would have had to ask me to do it. Kawasaki would not have given them the funding for it nor allowed it to happen.

How would Kawi benefit from him winning on it and how would they market the win? “Team Kawasaki factory rider Tim Helter destroys the competition on a bike that we don’t make. Hurry down to your local Kawasaki dealer where you can neither see, or buy one, now or ever!” Lol.

I remember Honda had a few open bikes as well. There were all types of custom 3 wheelers back then with all sizes of engines in them.

I personally never even saw or heard of these at the time.






[QUOTE=Rlaymon;1238386]A friend of mine even raced a little known brand called Tiger who made a 500. I rode it once, boy was it fast but had some scary handling.

I can imagine, lol. I actually put an 80 hp 3 cylinder snow mobile engine in a jet ski as an R and D project, lol.

[Rlaymon]

barnett468,

No disrespect intended but you kind of contradict yourself. The 3 wheeler Nationals ended in '87, so you leaving in '88 really has no bearing on any of this. The open class dates back to the very beginning of it all. Dean, Wax, and Coe all rode open ATC's for Team Honda as far back as '81, as well as many privateers. If Kawasaki had no reason to build a 500 for the reasons you say, then why would they build 200cc machines? They even built a 125 for a young kid named Jackie Meadows. Both Tim and Jackie were on Team Green back in the '80's. Tim got his 500 engine directly from Kawasaki. Rumor was that it was a spare engine from one of Ward's practice bikes. Do you remember a guy named James Degaine?

[Poco Loco]

Barnett, all that racing history and not 1 pic? WTF? Your kidding me. Somethings fishy here...I never knew a guy who raced and doesnt have a pic of it. Garage pics of you and your trikes, rec riding at the local spot, a shot at the pits with other team members....nothing?

[barnett468]

Hello Rlaymon

No disrespect intended but, you kinda contridict yourself.

If you think this is the case you simply misunderstand what I said. I never contradict myself.

The 3 wheeler Nationals ended in 87 so you leaving in 88 really has no bearing on any of this. The Open class dates back to the very begining of it all. Dean, Wax, and Coe all rode open ATC's as far back as 81.

I didn’t even know people raced 3 wheelers until after I started at Kawi, I was an MX guy. I was originally hired to do the development of all the Kawasaki off road bikes including the police bikes and all watercraft and new product concepts. My previous comments remain the same.

If Kawasaki had no reason to build a 500 for the reasons you say, why then would they build 200cc machines?

How should I know, I ran ATV R and D not the marketing dept! I suggest you call up Kawi marketing and ask them. That is an excellent question however, to which I have no definitive answer only guesses. Marketing was none of my concern. I never thought about it but it doesn’t make much marketing sense does it? It is possible they were considering building a 200 as a production bike since it would be an easy deal and once people saw it out there and doing well they would rush to buy one once they were available.

They even built a 125 for a young kid named Jackie Meadows.

Never happened in the shop I was in while I was there, it was the only shop Kawi had.

Both Tim and Jackie were on Team Green back in the 80's.

As I mentioned, who rode for team green was none of my concern so I don’t remember anything about them. I was more interested in following MX anyway, lol.

Tim got his 500 engine directly from Kawasaki...rumor was it was a spare engine from one of Ward's practice bikes.

If this is the case it would have had to come from Norm the MX shop mgr. All that stuff was supposed to be destroyed when no longer current, but…, lol. If it came from Norm it would have been free so Kawi/Team Green would not have had to pay for it. We actually used to bet how long it would take for a bike to blow up with the throttle taped wide open when it was destined for the scrap yard, lol. Norm did the honors.

Do you remember a guy named James Degaine?

Haaaah, ha, lol, lol. Obviously. What do you want to know about him? My question for you is, do you know Bruce S. his predecessor, lol. James had an annoying habit of taking my lap times for some reason that is unknown to me and never telling me what they were. He would just stand there and smile and say “don’t worry about it”, it drove me bonkers. Can’t believe he ever left there, he got a job with either a big tire mfg. or their race team in So Cal. Kawi’s pay was pretty low so most ex Kawi guys went to Honda. I guess he finally got smart enough to leave for greener pastures.

Let me know how and what he’s doing if you had recent contact with him. He’s a great guy and deserves the best.

[Poco Loco]

What no reply at all ??? Dude your profile has nothing at all. Not even a shred of information...Hmmm. At least photoshop something....

Barnett, all that racing history and not 1 pic? WTF? Your kidding me. Somethings fishy here...I never knew a guy who raced and doesnt have a pic of it. Garage pics of you and your trikes, rec riding at the local spot, a shot at the pits with other team members....nothing?

Are you a ghost writer of fiction novels?..........I might have been born in the night, but it wasn't last night.....Im calling bullsht on all of this.

[Rlaymon]

barnett468,

I am not trying to discredit you or argue with you but, you do contridict yourself with these statements.

This would not have been built or sponsored by Kawi while I was there for the following reasons. All the mfg’s only sponsored production models that were available to the public. There is no point in building and/or sponsoring a bike the public couldn’t buy. I would have seen them build it since we only had one machine shop and I was in it almost every day. They were not capable of building one so they would have had to ask me to do it. Kawasaki would not have given them the funding for it nor allowed it to happen.

How would Kawi benefit from him winning on it and how would they market the win? “Team Kawasaki factory rider Tim Helter destroys the competition on a bike that we don’t make. Hurry down to your local Kawasaki dealer where you can neither see, or buy one, now or ever!” Lol.

I do not understand how you can say they had no reason to build a 500 since Kawi did not produce a production bike but, that is contrary to the fact they made 200 and 125 bikes. They did not have those in production either. You also state

They were not capable of building one so they would have had to ask me to do it. Kawasaki would not have given them the funding for it nor allowed it to happen.

You then go on to say

If this is the case it would have had to come from Norm the MX shop mgr. All that stuff was supposed to be destroyed when no longer current, but…, lol. If it came from Norm it would have been free so Kawi/Team Green would not have had to pay for it.

So, by this admission you are stating they did build bikes without your help. I asked you about James Degaine because he is the one who built Jackie's 125. This again is contrary to what you said about them not being able to build anything without your help (as quoted above).
Fact of the matter both Honda and Kawasaki built custom 3 wheelers that were not production models which is contrary to your statement

All the mfg’s only sponsored production models that were available to the public. There is no point in building and/or sponsoring a bike the public couldn’t buy.

Honda had 125, 200, 350, 480, and 500 two strokes and even had a 500 four stroke. I read on this site were Micky Dunlap was contracted by Honda to build a 250 four stroke. Kawasaki had the 125 that Jackie rode, several 200's and the 500 for Tim.

Yes, I know who Bruce Stjernstrom is. I would also call in to question your comment

Kawi’s pay was pretty low so most ex Kawi guys went to Honda.

I can not speak for you or others however, I remember a rumor that Jackie was making over 50,000 back then. Not to shabby for a 14-15 year old kid if you ask me. How you have never heard of him is puzzling to me since he was groomed to be Jimmy's replacement.

I have to agree with poco loco, something is fishy here. It does not add up.

[barnett468]

Barnett, all that racing history and not 1 pic? WTF? Your kidding me. Somethings fishy here...I never knew a guy who raced and doesnt have a pic of it. Garage pics of you and your trikes, rec riding at the local spot, a shot at the pits with other team members....nothing?

Nope, like I said, what ever photos I did have were sadly lost, around 40 years worth of them to be more specific. I am also not a narcissist like others so that's why I didn't have people going around chasing me with a camera.

[Poco Loco]

No worries. Im sure all your racing friends will post some pics of you working with all your race teams. There should be hundreds of photos out there. you know everybody. They have all the pics.....Throw us a frickin bone here...

Nope, like I said, what ever photos I did have were sadly lost, around 40 years worth of them to be more specific. I am also not a narcissist like others so that's why I didn't have people going around chasing me with a camera.

[Mickey Dunlap]

If you get on this forum you better have your facts right,or you will get called out

Kawasaki and most the factories will give out parts or machines for projects,it's a lot cheaper for them to give stuff out and even pay a little to do market research. Kawasaki gave Powroll a 110 to build a 125 class racer for Jackie to race. Kawasaki also gave me everything I needed to build a KLX 200 four stroke to race against the 200x's too. I didn't get very far with that project because I went back to racing the 200x half way into 85'.

[barnett468]

Rlaymon




You obviously have some agenda for some bizarre reason which doesn’t interest me. You and Poco Loco are turning a fun thread into a piece of “bleep” for no reason IMO. Attempting to attack someones credibility especially when you don't know the person or the first thing about them seems at the very least. rude.

I am not trying to discredit you or argue with you but, you do contridict yourself with these statements.

For the second time I never Contradict myself, you obviously are trying to make something out of nothing as mentioned above. Like any human being I may occasionally make incomplete comments and on rare occasions misremembered ones when they are things that occurred a long time ago but that's about it. If you don't then you must be perfect and/or too young to be forgetting things. I don't fit either of those categories unfortunately.

I do not see how you can say they had no reason to build a 500 since Kawi did not produce a production bike but, that is contrary to the fact they made 200 and 125 bikes. They did not have those in production either.

Do you need someone to read and explain my previous post to you? For the second time, they might have considered building one so gambling on simply buying a few down sleeved cylinders for a market test or whatever wasn't going to break their piggy bank. Also for the second time I was in R and D not marketing.

You also state You then go on to say So, by this admission you are stating they did build bikes without your help. I asked you about James Degaine because he is the one who built Jackie's 125. This again is contrary to what you said about them not being able to build anything without your help (as quoted above).

My comments in my previous post are concise, again, have someone explain them to you if you want. I NEVER said they were incapable of doing ANYTHING at all. Show me where I did, that comment simply doesn't exist. How much skill does it take to bolt on a 200 cc cylinder. I could be wrong [which I’m not] but I believe it would take just a tiny bit more skill to hack up a frame and install a 500 don’t ya think? I also NEVER saw them build a 200 either. They would not have to bring it into the machine shop simply to bolt a 200 cylinder on now would they? Since I had my own job why would I be over at Team Green everyday watching what they were doing? Besides, they had a friend of mine named Harry Klemm to build what they needed.

Fact of the matter both Honda and Kawasaki built custom 3 wheelers that were not production models which is contrary to your statement

No it is not, for the third time now, have someone explain my comments to you since you obviously either misconstrue them or are simply outright trying to twist the facts. Some people here are a bit smarter than that and see what you are trying to do.

I have no idea what Honda did other than apparently screw Mike Coe out of a Championship so they could give it to Marty Hart along with some other things.

Honda had 125, 200, 350, 480, and 500 two strokes and even had a 500 four stroke.

Don’t know, don’t care. Don’t see what that has to do with Kawi.

I read on this site were Micky Dunlap was contracted by Honda to build a 250 four stroke. Kawasaki had the 125 that Jackie rode, several 200's and the 500 for Tim.

Same reply as above.

Yes, I know who Bruce Stjernstrom is.

Interesting, you even spelled his name correctly which is unusual for anyone to do.





[QUOTE=Rlaymon;1238449]I would also call in to question your comment I can not speak for you or others however, I rember a rumor that Jackie was making over 50,000 back then.

Well since you can’t speak for me or others as you admit and Jackie’s pay was a “rumor” as you say then why are you trying to. Jackie was not an employee of Kawasaki. Equating Marty Smith’s, Jeff Wards or Brad Lackeys pay to that of a regular employee like James or myself is simply ridiculous. Do you really think James or I was getting Millions of dollars a year like Jeff was, lol ,lol, lol.

Not to shabby for a 14-15 year old kid if you ask me.

Certainly wouldn’t be if it could be documented.

How you have never heard of him is puzzling to me since he was groomed to be Jimmy's replacement.

I already told you why I don’t remember him but I will tell you again for the second time now. What Team Green did was NONE of my concern. I might of heard his name tossed around but since I was still an MX guy I wouldn’t have given it a second thought and quickly about it. I had more than enough work to focus on.

I have to agree with poco loco, something is fishy here. It does not add up.

Only because you are trying to make something out of nothing like others here have tried and failed to do just like you will.





You are starting to sound like someone else I recently ran into elsewhere. That person ended up embarrassing himself horrendously.

[barnett468]

poco loco

No worries. Im sure all your racing friends will post some pics of you working with all your race teams. There should be hundreds of photos out there.

Really, 100’s of photo’s from my friends taking photos of me, lol, lol. Since I wasn't Jimmie White or Jeff Ward I can't imagine why they would waste the film, lol. Even if there were, I don’t know where any of those people would be 25 years later. Unlike some, I continued on with life and didn’t remain stuck in the past.

No worrie you know everybody.

I do, really? I never knew that. I obviously don’t know Jackie Meadows or Tim Helter even though I know of them now, perhaps you are mistaken about who I know, what do ya think?

They have all the pics.

Do they, really? It’s amazing how much you know about my friends, please tell me more!

Throw us a frickin bone here...

Why, lol?





PS - I have a pretty good idea who put you up to this, lol. Ya know, some people choose to be nice and make friends, others don't. Your choice seems clear.

[Rlaymon]

barnett468,

There is no agenda other then to come here and read about 3 wheeler racing, past and present. I certainly have no desire to get into a back and forth argument with you. I read some of your comments and saw how they were not factually true and inconsistent. Two other people seem to agree on some level that your not on the up and up. When someone as highly respected as Mr. Dunlap comes here and basicaly says the same thing I have been saying, that is enough for me. I do not need to sink to your level of insulting someone in an attempt to win the day. It is easy to come on the internet and claim you are this and that. Reading what you have posted, how you react when someone questions you, tells me all I need to know. Sad you can't have a conversation with someone without them stooping so low as to throw out insults. You may or may not be a Kawasaki R&D guy. I could care less at this point. Besides, Kawasaki's are known for being unreliable. Since your information is just as unreliable you just may very well be a Kawasaki superstar.
I only hope the rest of the members on this site are not like you.

Have a nice Day

[Poco Loco]

You might be able to fool the fans...but you cant fool the players....

poco loco






Really, 100’s of photo’s from my friends taking photos of me, lol, lol. Since I wasn't Jimmie White or Jeff Ward I can't imagine why they would waste the film, lol. Even if there were, I don’t know where any of those people would be 25 years later. Unlike some, I continued on with life and didn’t remain stuck in the past.







I do, really? I never knew that. I obviously don’t know Jackie Meadows or Tim Helter even though I know of them now, perhaps you are mistaken about who I know, what do ya think?







Do they, really? It’s amazing how much you know about my friends, please tell me more!







Why, lol?





PS - I have a pretty good idea who put you up to this, lol. Ya know, some people choose to be nice and make friends, others don't. Your choice seems clear.