What oil are you running in your Big Red 250es?

[kebby28]

It looks like i either need to use honda or valvoline.

Or any atv oil with wet clutch capabilitys...

[kebby28]

I'm not positive, but I don't think Honda actually owns a refinery but probably buys a certian oil and puts it in a red bottle...

[Fireman942]

I'm not positive, but I don't think Honda actually owns a refinery but probably buys a certian oil and puts it in a red bottle...

Very true. Curious as to what they use lol

[tri again]

I read the manual and didn't see anything about much except 10-40 period.
Embarrased to say but I get cases of 10-40 for all the farm equipment and the trikes get it too.
We drag stuff, lowspeed, heavy torque applications and no clutch problems in years and years and thousands of hours.
Does NOT mean it's the right thing to do.
I got the expensive wet clutch stuff for the trail 90 but they're wierd kickstart slipwise anyway.

What was oil in the 80's anyway? and WTF did they change it to these days?
other than lowering zinc/phos the save the converters.
and how do they make synthetic oil? and what in the heck do they make it out of?
wax and nail polish remover?

I remember when mobil one came out. I can't tell you how many automotive timing chains we replaced as a direct result.
Maybe it's good for some stuff but chains, it did not like.

[tri again]

That's kind of what I was thinking. I have one that is smoking a little and has a little oil coming out the exhaust. I put some thicker stuff in it hoping it would help it out but I'm wondering if I shouldn't have put some seafoam in the oil instead and see if it frees up a stuck ring.

Maybe some seafoam in the cylinder and spin it a few times?
or an ounce or 2 and let it sit for a few days.
Maybe try some seafoam on a crusty sparkplug and see if it melts the carbon?

How's the compression?
I remember new porsche engines that simply would not seat rings.
The boss would powderdust comet cleanser into the air intake and hone them
from the outside.

Oddly enough, it worked. Dealer authorized.

[tvpierce]

Since car oil contains friction modifiers to reduce engine friction and wear it can cause more rapid clutch wear.

That's true only with oils labeled "ENERGY CONSERVING". An oil labeled "Energy Conserving" should not be used in a system with a wet clutch. Look at the label on any oil you're considering for wet clutch application.

I have never seen an "Energy Conserving" oil above 30w. That's not to say they don't exist -- just that I've never seen or heard of one.

All modern motorcycles are wet clutch systems, with the exception of BMW, Guzzi, and Ducati -- and even some of them now use a wet clutch. Do a little research and you'll find that Shell Rotella T (synthetic or conventional) is probably the single most highly regarded wet-clutch-safe oil on the market. What it has over other "automotive" oils is that it's not an automotive oil -- it's designed for diesels. Since diesels do not have catalytic converters, it's able to maintain a high zinc content which is great for our old school high-friction valve trains. It's of course not an "Energy Conserving" oil. It's available in 5w-40 synthetic and 15w-40 in conventional.

[Flyingw]

Actually Tri, on the top of page 2-1 there is a chart showing the temp vs. viscosity recommendations. In the colder months I run 10W-30 but in the Spring when I change my oil I run 10W-40.

The oils specified in the manuals were based on the American Petroleum Institute standards at that time however, those standards were and are for automotive use but back then, the engine oil classification standards were SE or SF. Now, the oils on the shelves are SN. I looked at all the oil containers I have on hand and they are all SN but these are standards for automotive use. There is no standard classification for ATV engines. Why does this matter? What the issue here is the viscosity. Say for example you put an SAE 10W-40 in a brand new car engine. Manufacturing techniques have vastly changed over the years and the tolerances have gotten allot tighter for engines manufactured now meaning the oils have gotten lighter to accommodate those close tolerances. This really doesn't help us resolve our debate since the 3wheeler engines were built with the oil standards that were current back then. No way will we find an API SE or SF oil on the shelf now but I will be going to the auto parts store and looking at all the different oils on the shelf but more than likely they will all be SN standard oils because that is the current standard.

Here's some simple guidelines when it comes to API Standards.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Labels.htm

It would take a petroleum chemical engineer who works in the automotive oil field to explain the progression of the API standards throughout the years but how does this translate to usage in our 3wheeler engines? Not sure without knowing what the standard changes were and how they relate to wet clutch applications.

"Motorcycle oil

The API oil classification structure has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications in their descriptors, and API SJ and newer oils are referred to be specific to automobile and light truck use. Accordingly, motorcycle oils are subject to their own unique standards. As discussed above, motorcycle oils commonly still use the obsolescent SF/SG standard"

Here's some good reading

http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html

So does this add fuel to the debate fire? In some ways yes. From what I've been reading, the 10W-40 oils do not comply with the Energy Conserving standard and based in part on the results of a couple of studies I've read, today's conventional oils are perfectly safe for use in our 3wheelers as long as you use the correct viscosity in the engine. The debate continues.

[tri again]

Actually Tri, on the top of page 2-1 there is a chart showing the temp vs. viscosity recommendations. In the colder months I run 10W-30 but in the Spring when I change my oil I run 10W-40.
----

I see and thank you but was more thinking about the manual specifically suggesting 'wet clutch only' oils. Maybe wet clutch oil wasn't even an issue back then with the 1980 formulations.

I'll re read it again but I'm so paranoid and protective of my 'outdoor, all terrain wheelchairs' I should have remembered and certainly aspire to the church of Honda engineers. Maybe 1980's oil was perfectly fine for what it was supposed to do.

I honestly haven't done much with anything newer than early 90's.
Ol' dad is kinda freaked that his 2008 truck say 5w20 right on the fill cap.
His whole life was about 90wt gear oil and heavier the better.
Lighter oil to reduce internal engine drag I guess.

My delerious thought was 10-30 or 10-40 in the 80's (and Honda manuals) almost has to be different than it is today and your references should keep me busy for a while.

Ya know, if this is my biggest problem, I should count my blessing and quit whining or find something else to worry about.
I liked your warning on the new clutch discs btw.

With a few things these days, from health care and diagnosis, prevention and vitamins to engine oils and additives for my old leaded gas engines, the more I learn, it seems the less I know.
Interesting times for sure.

[Flyingw]

Ya that would have made our lives way easier when it comes to choosing an oil for our trike motors but Honda designed most of their motor to run on motor oils under the then current automotive standards. I guess this debate will continue but until it proven otherwise, I will continue to use off the shelf conventional automotive oils for my motors. I haven't experienced any anomalies so that leads to think the automotive standard oils are just fine for this type of wet clutch applications.

[tri again]

Seems like I just lost a half hour of response.
aaaargh...have to relog in a couple times every session.
I guess I'll post and re edit so I don't lose stuff again.

http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html

Interesting read for sure.

Great graduate "A" paper but wonder why they mention motorcycle gear 'oil squish' breaking polymer chains which doesn't happen in automotive engines...maybe a little with timing gears but anyway.

If gear squish is such a problem, I wonder why automotive differentials don't even bother with drainplugs anymore.

Thanks again FW.
This may not change the world but is making my insomnia much more bearable.
I like the last little chart on viscosity breakdown.

Yeah, I don't remember seeing the words 'wet clutch only ' in the honda manual for oil recommendations. But then again, as I said, the more I learn it seems the less I know.

Hopefully soon, I'll be able to hide my own easter eggs.

[dougspcs]

I think a lot of what had caused us to be oil specific now is the advance of oil technology over the years..

When our trikes we're build oil was oil essentially. That's why the manuals didn't specify 'wet clutch' use. It didn't exist..

The additives came into play during the 90s with the advent of synthetics and friction enhancers..some of these great new oil advances don't play we'll into the wet clutch equipped engines.

[bkvette3]

Good question by Fireman 942 which got me wondering - is it "ok" to run this oil in my '84 200es??? I never even thought about the wet clutch system. Or should I just buy Honda oil at the Honda dealership to be safe??? Your thoughts, opinions & comments appreciated. BK3

[dougspcs]

That oil is fine Vette, I've used it a few times in the past..

Motorcycle oil, AtV oil..both are wet clutch, likely just a marketing thing..

Can't imagine what could possibly matter if there is a difference.

[Flyingw]

You know, this discussion begs the question,

For vintage automobile restorers say 1920-1960 era automobiles or even earlier to 1920, what oils do these guys use. Obviously oil technology has changed drastically so one has to wonder, what these guys are putting in their restorations? I can't imagine guys like Jay Leno or Wayne Carini who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on vintage and exotic restorations would risk damaging a motor by putting just any oil off the shelf made under the current SN standard or whether they put an oil that meets the standards of when those motors were built. I found the web site for F40 and tonight I'm going to pen an email to Mr. Carini and ask him that very question.

One has to agree that many decades ago, engines were far more "looser" for lack of a better term as compared to todays engine manufacturing techniques which drives the need for more eco friendly and higher performance requirements. Prior to the introduction of the catalytic converters, oil was just oil but not so by today's standards. Going one step further, look at the evolution of the motorcycles and motorcycle engine technology over the decades. How long have motorcycle engines been using wet clutch designs that run a conventional oil to lubricate the engine and transmission. For me, this opens the door for lots of questions and how it relates directly and indirectly to our trike engines. Perhaps we are over-thinking this. Perhaps oil is still just oil when it comes to our trikes.

[Jones]

i have been using Rotella 15W40 in my crf 450r and xr650L. dont know if i should also run in big red