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Thread: 250ES charging questions...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hampshire U.K.
    --
    536

    Cool 250ES charging questions...

    Hi,
    I've recently successfully changed both oneway clutches so time to move on to the next challenge - put simply it doesn't charge, and never has.
    The rotor was replaced when the clutch was changed. I don't think there's anything in the rotor that can/could go wrong but just thought I'd mention it.

    The stator on the machine tests out as follows;
    All yellow terminals - yellow terminals read 0.8 - 1.7 ohms.
    All yellow terminals - ground read 1.8 - 2.7 ohms.
    I understand that to mean stuffed!

    I have a spare stator assy;
    All yellow terminals - yellow terminals read 0.7 - 0.8 ohms.
    All yellow terminals - ground read open circuit/infinity.
    I understand that to be good.

    The machine currently has a car battery on it with about 50ahrs @ 12.4v in it. When I fitted the spare stator all I could get was a small fluctuation up to 12.6v, according to the manual that should be 14 - 15v. Is this stator stuffed as well? Are the readings due to the size of the battery I'm using? Or is something else wrong that I've not spotted yet?!

    Thanks in advance,
    Rob.
    ATC 70, ATC 250es, 1/32 ATC 250R
    1 person in 10 understands binary, the other one doesn't.

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario, Canada
    --
    3,415
    Since the charging system wasn't designed to charge a car battery, I'd say it's very possible that the huge battery is the reason for the reading you are getting.

    The stator output max may be 14-15v, but with a huge battery in the system pulling all that voltage to charge you are essentially getting a battery voltage reading from your tester..

    Disconnect the battery and repeat the test with engine running..without the load of the battery you should see the spec the book says.

    And for god sakes man..get a proper battery!!
    Current toys..
    1986 Honda 350X..trail bomb!
    1985 Honda 250SX..my main mudder
    1985 Honda 250ES..Back in Black Trike
    Current non-trike toys:
    1990 Honda TRX300FW
    1995 Seadoo GTX
    1998 Polaris Indy Lite 340(Nearly new looking)
    1998 Polaris Touring 500
    1998 Club Car (electric)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Choctaw, OK
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    2,755
    The other thing to remember is the charging circuit isn't much more than a trickle charge so depending on the demand on the battery may not be enough. The AC power generated by the stator is converted to DC and fed back to the battery to charge it. I would suggest to replace the regulator and put the right battery back in to it. When its not being ridden, put the battery on a tender to keep it topped off.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hampshire U.K.
    --
    536
    Thanks Doug and Jim,
    The reason for the battery is just that knowing it didn't charge I didn't want to run out of volts in the middle of nowhere. I had considered unhooking the battery to check the voltage while it was running but was unsure if that would damage the regulator, rectifier or anything else. Is it best to change the regulator as well?
    Oh, and correct battery on order!
    Last edited by Hair Bear Bunch; 04-21-2014 at 04:09 PM.
    ATC 70, ATC 250es, 1/32 ATC 250R
    1 person in 10 understands binary, the other one doesn't.

    Trikefest UK '08 survivor!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    --
    303
    If the car battery was fully charged to start, I think the voltage should have been at the normal 13+ volts no matter the size. While in college I was on the Formula SAE team, and at one point we had a car with a Yamaha WR250F engine with a full size truck battery (group 58 right out of a Chevy truck) installed and it charged just fine. When idling the voltage would be above 13V. I'm curious if there is any change with just a battery swap to a new, smaller battery.

    Another thing to check is to measure the output of the regulator/rectifier right at it's connections to the harness. SV650's are notorious for having issues charging, but if you move the regulator/rectifier output right to the battery terminals the issues go away, suggesting there is some bad connection somewhere in the harness. It might be work a quick check with the multimeter before spending money.
    -Chad

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    S.E. Michigan
    --
    1,250
    There are a couple ways to check that your system is charging correctly. The first is what you've done: measure the battery voltage while running. The thing that is important is the difference between engine off and engine on. For example, if the battery reads 12.0 with the engine off, then 12.3 with the engine running, then it looks like your system is putting charge back into the battery. It takes a while. The battery is like a huge reservoir. The output from your alternator (as already stated) is like a trickle charger. It isn't going to instantly jump the voltage to 14.5. So yours may be ok. Let it idle for a while and see if the voltage continues to climb long term.

    The other way to check your charging circuit is to actually stick an ammeter inline between the battery and the positive battery cable. Don't use the electric starter with an ammeter inline, you'll blow the meter fuse. So either kick start it, or put the meter inline after it is running. Then look and see which way the current is moving. If you put the positive meter lead on the battery cable, and the negative meter lead on the battery positive terminal, then you should see + numbers if the alternator is charging the battery. If you see - numbers, then the battery is draining.
    - Frank

    1984 200ES Big Red
    1985 350X (x2)
    1986 350X
    1986 250SX
    1984 Auto-X
    1984 ATC70
    1985 ATC70

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hampshire U.K.
    --
    536
    Thanks for the advice, It'll probably be a couple of weeks before I get the chance to dig into it again.

    Confession time. I hadn't really planned to try changing this casing on Sunday. When I did the clutches, the gaskets came away clean with the cases so they were undisturbed and went back on without problem. To do the stator I didn't drain the oil, just tipped the machine on it's side and got on with it. The replacement case didn't have a gasket so I quickly made one from a large cereal box, something I've done successfully many times before. Anyway, what I didn't notice was a slight crease in the card right where the oil gallery is. After running it - thankfully only for a few seconds to get some results - I noticed an oily smell and discovered it had all but emptied it's sump all over the floor! Ho-hum... lesson learned and gasket on order.
    ATC 70, ATC 250es, 1/32 ATC 250R
    1 person in 10 understands binary, the other one doesn't.

    Trikefest UK '08 survivor!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hampshire U.K.
    --
    536
    Update...
    Correct battery fitted, good stator and new gasket installed - Yay!
    Still not charging - Boo!
    Before I invest in a regulator, is there a 'running engine' test for the stator? What I mean is to run the engine without the yellow 3-wire stator plug connected and measure the AC output of each wire, either between each wire or to ground. I guess there should be at least something measureable, but what and where? At least then it would establish that what I've done so far is good and I can start a hunt for a regulator.
    ATC 70, ATC 250es, 1/32 ATC 250R
    1 person in 10 understands binary, the other one doesn't.

    Trikefest UK '08 survivor!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Quebec,Canada
    --
    1,012
    Do you have the good rotor??

    There is 2 model of rotor,Mitsuba and Nippodenso

    The difference between both that wll cause problem is the inside diameter.

    I don't remember which one is bigger or smaller.....

    The bigger one will fit free over the stator,the other one will simply not fit (except with a ) The difference is in 0.000,if you have the bigger rotor on the smaller stator,the clearance between magnet and stator will simply not give charge.I'm 99% sure it's our problem,since you say you changed the rotor.

    If you have continuity between yellow wire and the ground the stator is bad.

    1986 ATC500X
    1985 ATC250SX
    1985 ATC200X
    1985 ATC250R
    1986 ATC250R
    1984 ATC250R
    1981 ATC70
    1984 ATC70
    1985 ATC70
    Custom built ATC70 / 250R laydwon swap
    1986 ATC250SX FATCAT

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hampshire U.K.
    --
    536
    Thanks, I wasn't aware of that, something else to consider though.
    The rotor and stator came off the same spare engine so in theory they should match but not knowing it's history or ever having run it I guess anything is possible.
    ATC 70, ATC 250es, 1/32 ATC 250R
    1 person in 10 understands binary, the other one doesn't.

    Trikefest UK '08 survivor!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Choctaw, OK
    --
    2,755
    I would disconnect the battery at the pos post wile engine is running and see if you can measure any DC voltage at the battery terminal. The charging system works much the same as your car does. When the battery voltage level drops to a certain level, the regulator turns on to charge the battery. When the battery charges back up, the regulator shuts off. You can also check the AC voltage coming out of the yellow wires. You should see about 12vac at idle to about 50vac at high rev.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hampshire U.K.
    --
    536
    Would that be between each of the yellow wires or yellow wire to ground (if that makes sense)?
    ATC 70, ATC 250es, 1/32 ATC 250R
    1 person in 10 understands binary, the other one doesn't.

    Trikefest UK '08 survivor!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Choctaw, OK
    --
    2,755
    Yellow to ground.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hampshire U.K.
    --
    536
    Thanks, job for tomorrow. I've also found the test specs for the regulator so I'll let you know how I get on.
    ATC 70, ATC 250es, 1/32 ATC 250R
    1 person in 10 understands binary, the other one doesn't.

    Trikefest UK '08 survivor!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hampshire U.K.
    --
    536
    Well, good news is 12vac and upwards from all the stator wires so that appears to be ok.
    The regulator is a whole different matter. First obsevation is the connector for the green wire is burnt and black. Having worked throught the test points in the Clymer book then rechecked with the Honda disc I'm sure the regulator is fubar.
    My results are

    - \ + Yellow Yellow Yellow Red Green Black

    Yellow \ inf inf inf 1.8m 1.8m

    Yellow inf \ inf inf 1.8m 1.8m

    Yellow inf inf \ inf 1.8m 1.8m

    Red 1.8m 1.8m 1.8m \ 3.3m 3.3m

    Green inf inf inf inf \ 25k

    Black inf inf inf inf 25k \

    k = kilo ohms m = mega ohms

    Strange thing is apart from the actual measurements, this chart is almost a mirror opposite of the Honda chart!
    I have just retested it on the table to double check just in case I overlooked the polarity on anything but the results stand.
    Time to go shopping methinks...
    ATC 70, ATC 250es, 1/32 ATC 250R
    1 person in 10 understands binary, the other one doesn't.

    Trikefest UK '08 survivor!

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