1983 Honda 200 Cold Weather Troubles

[Mike Burke]

I have been using my three wheeler for ice fishing transportation. I have been having a lot of troubles getting it started and keeping it running.

I full choke it the first pull or two...it wont start. Then I move it to half choke and it will fire then die...then back to full choke for a pull or two wont start...then half choke and it will start and idle for a minute then die. So pull it again to get it fired and give it some throttle to keep it running and warming up then let it idle and it dies. So I turned up the idle screw to keep it running. After I run it a little and it warms up then the idle is to high so I turn it down a little and it dies. The idle will fluctuate while its sitting there then die.

There was day I barley got it back to the truck and loaded then got home and couldn't get it started at all. Took it to the local shop and there was water in the fuel he drained out or the carburetor and the plug was fouled. He showed me the fuel that came out of the carburetor and it had water in it and some small dirt particles in the cup. I do have a in line filter but looked like there was dirt in it anyway. Well he Got it running again and said it was fine.

Went out today and it just doesn't want to run very well in the cold. Struggle to get it started and keep it running.

I'm wondering if my carburetor is dirty and needs cleaned. Maybe there is some debris that is cloging things up..... I did install a carburetor kit this fall and installed an inline filter....

I'm thinking I should drain the gas tank .... take the carburetor off and clean it again...it an attempt to get the moister out of the system and any dirt that may be in the tank.

I have read some about changing jets but don't know if that's even doable on this carburetor...

I'm not sure what to try. New carburetor.... different kind of spark plug.....take a look at the electric system ....

My buddy has a 82 185 that starts first pull and will run all day long just perfect.

I know there are a ton of variables and things that could be causing this but .....does anybody have any suggestions ?

Thanks

[Scootertrash]

Do you have a manual?

If not:

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manual...ice_Manual.pdf

Here is a link to the complete page of manuals Save it in your favorites, it'll come in handy:

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

Drain the tank completely to eliminate any more moisture that might be in the tank. You will have to take the tank off and dump it out after the fuel stops coming out of the petcock, you will never completely drain everything out of the tank thru the petcock. I have taken a coat hanger and pinched a rag into the end of the hanger to mop up any remaining fuel (or water) but it's much easier to flip the tank upside down and dump it. I also rinse the tank a couple of times with fresh gas and dump that out too. You don't need to fill the tank to rinse it, a small amout will do. I dump it in my fire pit to start a fire, it's your decision where you dump it. I've dumped it in a 5 gallon pail too. Your shop guy should have done that once he discovered water in your carb. It's been my experience that if there is water in the carb bowl there is water in the tank. It's the only way water can get in the carb bowl aside from condensation.

Pull your carb and clean it again. Make sure you can see light thru the orifices of your jets. On the idle jet there are 4 rows of very small holes along the length of the jet. Make sure they are clean and clear. Same with the main jet holder/emulsion tube. Unscrew the idle mixture screw (it's the little screw on the engine side of the carb behind the bowl. Count the turns)and make sure the end is nice and pointy, not mashed up from someone screwing it in too tight or otherwise damaging it.

Once you have all of your jets and adjustment screws out put that little red tube on the nozzle for your carb cleaner and blast thru every opening and orifice on the carb. WEAR SAFETY GLASSES so you don't get carb cleaner in your eyes. Put everything back together, set your idle mixture screw(pilot screw) to 2 turns out.

Make sure to replace that large O ring on the flange of the carb that goes against the engine if you haven't already. Put the carb back on.

Since you have the tank and seat off, it would be a good time to adjust the valves per the manual. It's kind of a pain in the arse, but if you haven't done it in awhile (or at all) it needs to be done. A new spark plug is cheap if you haven't put one in lately. Once you get the machine running, fine tune the idle mixture/pilot screw. Then lastly, adjust the cam chain. Then wheelie off into the sunset.

[Mike Burke]

Thanks for the suggestions,

I will take the tank off and drain all gas. I am going to dump it in a Clean white bucket to see whats in there.
I will take the carb off and clean it out again. One thing I'm not sure of is which jet is what....I hear..... main jet...idle jet.... main jet holder/emulsion tube... idle mixture/pilot screw
I have looked at the carburetor diagram but they don't call them by name. I wish there was a good photo that diagrams all the jets by name.

The local guy did adjust the valves last time he had it and said the exhaust valve was out of adjustment some...but check both.
He did mention that the spark was a little week..wasn't a crisp blue color....more of a white spark.

So he installed a iridium spark plug...thought that might be a little more efficient...

I don't know if that's something that would be feasible to fix at this point ?

I will report back with results....

Thanks

[Scootertrash]

Use pages 35-42 of the manual I posted in the first link. The emulsion tube us the same as the main jet holder. It will show you all of the parts as you go thru that section of the manual and tell you what to do.

[Mike Burke]

Drained fuel tank...there was some water in the tank
and some black debris. Cleaned out with some fresh gas twice.

Cleaned Carburetor...looked clean but took all the jets out and cleaned them

Will install new fuel filter and new fuel line

But while I'm waiting on the fuel tank to dry out I'm just wondering.

Could a week spark or electrical issues be causing these cold weather problems ?

Would a New (used) CDI or Stator be worth looking for ?

Thanks

[Mike Burke]

Have everything back together and running. It runs better with a clean carb and fresh fuel.
Im still not sure it will fix the problem with starting when REAL COLD....like 0 or below....but will find out.

I do have one problem still....some one suggested raising the slide needle jet a notch so now its in the third one from the top....stock is the second one from top.....they said in the winter the air is thinner and honda seem to run a little leaner in the winter so I raised the needle.

But now I noticed the slow speed screw....the one on the lower front of the carb underneath it.....is not working. When I screw it out it starts to bog the motor down but when I screw it in...it does nothing, even when I have it screwed in all the way...it does not effect the idle speed..I double check the spring, washer, o ring....but I can have it in all the way and it still idles.

I was wondering if the slide needle jet raised would effect the function of it ?

[Scootertrash]

Did you verify that the pilot jet in the carb was the same as listed in the manual? The pilot jet is what affects the idle speed, as well as the throttle stop on the side of the carb. Here's a link to properly adjusting the jetting for your bike. If you are not the original owner it would hurt to run the complete jetting process and make sure everything is adjusted correctly. One or more previous owners can have things all fudged up from them and their buddies messing with things

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...Jetting-Theory

Take your time, be patient and do it right the first time. once you have your bike jetted properly you'll be a happy camper.

Other things that affect jetting:

Is your air filter clean? Stock air box, stock airbox with no lid?

Are you running a factory air filter or aftermarket? Aftermarket being Uni, K&N, etc. Or no airbox and just a pod style filter?

Stock exhaust or aftermarket? DG, Supertrapp, Cobra?

I would put the needle clip back in the stock position as well as the pilot screw, and then follow the procedure in the link I posted.

[Mike Burke]

Thanks,
I have rebuilt the carb with a carb kit.

The pilot jet is also the slow jet ? Yes its stock #38
the Main jet is #95

I have also gotten a new air filter...its stock design...foam/oil filter in the stock box with lid. Everything is stock.
Exhaust is stock all the way.

There were two things that I noticed with the carb kit that I used was.....

The needle jet looked a little thicker ( larger round) in the kit one over the stock one...the stock one looked thinner.

The Pilot jet looked like the holes on the side were a little smaller on the kit one...the stock one had larger holes on the side...

I have everything that came in the kit installed. I'm not sure the name of the carburetor kit I used. ....I think it was a Moose Kit... Are there differences in carburetor kits for these carbs ?

Thanks again for your time,

[Scootertrash]

I would like to think that Moose or whomever made the kit would match up their kits to the stock Honda specs. There should be a number stamped on the needle. You may need a magnifying glass to read it. I do, but I'm a crusty old dude.

I try to use Shindy brand kits. They are made in Japan, like Honda, not China.

[Mike Burke]

Well.....I noticed the jet needle in the original carburetor is # 36N

The jet needle in the moose carburetor kit is # D71

Is that going to cause problems ?

All the other jets are the same #s stamped on them

[Scootertrash]

You would have to compare the two. It's possible that Mooses #D71 is their personal number for Hondas #36N.

The best way to cure this is to start fresh on your jetting and follow the procedure in the jetting link I provided. Set your needle clip to the second groove, your pilot screw 2 turns out, then start on page 44 of the manual I linked. This will tell you how to adjust your throttle stop (idle speed screw on the right side of the carb) in conjunction with your pilot screw, which also affect idle. If your throttle stop screw is too far out of adjustment your pilot screw can't make up the difference. I adjust the throttle stop screw by ear, probably not the best way to do it, but I'm comfortable with that and it has worked for me. I need to order a tach one of these days.

Since you changed the fuel inlet needle, you'll need to make sure your float is set to the proper height. Just because it's not overflowing doesn't mean it set properly.

I would put the original needle back in since according to the manual you know it's the correct one. As long as it isn't bent you should be fine. It's not really a wear item since it rides in the middle of the main jet bore.

When adjusting your pilot screw give the engine time to stabilize, you may not notice an immediate difference in idle speed as you turn the screw. Give it a couple seconds.

You can throw darts forever and not figure it out.There are really no short cuts since you don't know what has been messed with in the past. Once you get it dialed in you shouldn't have to mess with it again for quite some time. It can be a huge PIA, but it's worth the time spent in the end.

[thcowboy]

If you are having troubles starting at real cold, with my big red i put on the choke, pull it over slowly by hand about five times, and then press the electric start button or give it a good hard pull and it should work. Or just give it a little carb cleaner(dont use either, either is hard on engines and is very hard on small engines.

[Scootertrash]

He needs to get it tuned in properly first. I've never had to use starting fluid or carb cleaner to start my 200S. Once I got the carb dialed in it starts fine. If it's too cold (It needs to be damn cold) for the recoil to rewind, I don't ride it, or I'll pull it in the garage to warm up a bit.

Compensating for improper tuning by using chemicals is not the way to do it. If you do a search you'll find that there have been dozens of threads about carb problems and the inevitable answer is "Use your manual and the carb tuning thread and do it right. Yea, it can be time consuming and frustrating, but the end result is worth it: a properly starting and running machine

Do it right the first time.


ETA: I modded my 84 200S with head work, an XR200 cam and carb and a DG exhaust (wish I could find a SuperTrapp). It took me awhile to dial it in, but it was well worth it.

[thcowboy]

He needs to get it tuned in properly first. I've never had to use starting fluid or carb cleaner to start my 200S. Once I got the carb dialed in it starts fine. If it's too cold (It needs to be damn cold) for the recoil to rewind, I don't ride it, or I'll pull it in the garage to warm up a bit.

Compensating for improper tuning by using chemicals is not the way to do it. If you do a search you'll find that there have been dozens of threads about carb problems and the inevitable answer is "Use your manual and the carb tuning thread and do it right. Yea, it can be time consuming and frustrating, but the end result is worth it: a properly starting and running machine

Do it right the first time.


ETA: I modded my 84 200S with head work, an XR200 cam and carb and a DG exhaust (wish I could find a SuperTrapp). It took me awhile to dial it in, but it was well worth it.

I know but if you have to get it started for an emergency or somethin you have to do it. Ive done it once back when i wasnt familiar with the carb

Make sure you use real premium gas without ethanol. Ethanol burns colder and is hard to run on in the winter.

[Mike Burke]

Well....the jet needle that came in the kit had a different tapper to it. The dia. was the same just didn't tapper as much as the stock one. More of a straight tapper....the stock one gets pretty thin in the middle and on the end.

So I put the stock needle back in.
Put the keeper clip back on the second notch
fresh gas
fresh fuel filter and hose.

followed the manual instructions to the letter.....and got it started right off.
Let it warm up for 1/2 hr and went back to the manual instructions and finished setting....the only thing I don't have is a tack and I'm not sure what 1400 rpm's sounds like ....so I just guessed....
The Pilot screw did what it was supposed to and I think its as close to stock settings as I can get it.

Well this has been a learning experience and I have learned a little more about carburetors for sure. I think what the biggest problem and culprit was...was moisture (water) in the fuel....bad fuel and clogged fuel filter.
I think I was fighting that from the start.
After cleaning out the fuel system it seems to be running pretty good.

I did leave it outside all day in 10 deg f and it started on the second pull ( one full choke pull and one 1/2 choke pulls ) let it warm up and turned the choke off and it idled just fine...till I turned it off.

So I think for now I'm back in business....

There is one thing that I'm wondering about though....I keep my trike in a heated shop (55 deg) and then I pull it outside to load it when we get ready to go on the ice. Am I going to have a problem with the temp change and getting moisture in my fuel system form condensation ?
It could be 55 in the shop and 0 outside....

Is there a fuel treatment that I could use to fight the condensation problem
Keeping my tank topped off would help I'm sure.

Thanks