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Thread: How it's Done

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up How it's Done

    How it’s Done

    I don’t know if this is the correct place for this thread but here it goes
    Cylinder honing 101

    Billy & I have been doing a Machine shop thread in E2S for a few years now. I’m retired now but am still keeping Small Engine Machine Works & N. W. Sleeve alive with the active domain names for both companies.
    www.nwsleeve.com & www.smallenginemachineworks.com have been turning specialty cylinder sleeves since 1971. Nowadays we only do full line custom cylinder boring & sleeving, 1 at a time. “No Plating”
    Enjoy the thread & get involved

    The object for the thread (How it’s Done) is to educate & encourage people to become involved in the machine shop business. Every couple of weeks or so there will be a new entry showing & explaining how cycle & small engine machine work is properly done. Everyone’s input will be invited for questions & answers.

    Cylinder Honing 101 will be the first thread in “How it’s Done” for 3Wheeler.
    Now days times are turning around again; plated cylinders are wearing out all over the place. With PMI inc. leading the way with an assortment of various brands of pistons. Performance Motorsports International is the parent company for Wiesco (My favorite) J.E. & Pro-X lines of pistons.

    With cylinder sleeves available for almost any engine; it’s important for the enthusiast to have a basic knowledge of the applications & tools used for installing & maintaining a cylinder with an IRON liner.
    Cylinder sleeves are NOT made from STEEL. It was pointed out in E2S that there are steel cylinders, mostly in the aircraft industry. Lets not get off on a tangent.

    One of the simplest tools used in cylinder maintenance is the hone. Within this there is Glaze breaking & there is genuine cylinder honing. Glaze breaking is what it says & really has nothing to do with honing.
    When you pull the top end for a new set of rings, you will be putting a cross hatch in the bore to aid in the new ring break in.
    Over the years one of the most popular tools is a brake cylinder hone. I call this tool an “Egg Beater”. The egg beater has just about ZERO ability to do any sizing. They are also extremely good at snagging up in the bottoms of 2 stroke cylinders. They will however put a cross hatch in a 4 stroke bore.

    The next & one of the oldest types of tool is a Ball Hone. Ball hones are very good in 2 strokes because they are also useful in champhering 2 stroke ports.

    The third one which is my favorite is a brush hone. The beauty of the brush hone is as it wears down it can be used on smaller bores. After the shop has finished a bore; the ball & brush hones are also handy for removing the razor sharp edge at the top of the cylinder.

    All of the above are capable of laying a good 45deg. cross hatch. The real reason for a cross hatch while precision honing; This pattern while stroking the hone guarantees uniform stone contact from end to end which produces precision bore dimensions. Aiding in a good ring break in is an added bonus.
    Before you run your cylinder over to the shop to fit your new shiny $150.00 piston; Make sure that you know the qualifications of the guy who’s going to do your work.


    Left Ball hone --- Center precision AMCO cylinder hone --- Right a brake cylinder hone
    Of the three, only the AMCO hone is capable of precision cylinder sizing.



    A good set of brush hones; although rather expensive, they last & last




    The 1500 Lisle cylinder hone
    The Lisle hone is best used on 4 stroke cylinders. The stones on this brand are lightly glued in place & have a tendency to snag & break off in 2 strokes.



    Ask any builder in any trade; The Sunnen hone is the Best. Quality tools have a cost; my first used hand Sunnen hone cost me $165.00. We recently purchased a heavy duty model for over $500.00. You don’t find this kind of quality tool at HF. If you need a quality Sunnen supplier; try www.cavcosales.com . CAVCO has been my faithful Sunnen tool place for years; take a look at their web site.

    That about covers the hand held cylinder hones; the next step is accumulating a good set of measuring tools.

    If you are serious about your work; a good set of quality measuring tools is a must. Some folks will only purchase the best off the Snap On truck. Times have changed with the internet; quality tools are available from the internet on line. After a purchase it’s determined that the tool isn’t good enough; chuck it & find another. As with any retail trade, we tend to favor the supplier who offers the best service, quality & on time. After a while, we learn who we wish to do business with. You will notice that I didn’t use the word CHEAP. I made the statement over at E2S; “You get what you pay for”. You wouldn’t believe the fire storm of comments that showed up.



    Operating your hone is easy to learn if you spend some time watching on Utube. There are plenty of examples, good & bad so you need to sort them out


    For the pro along comes the power hone; again the Sunnen connecting rod hone is the best first choice.


    With hand honing with the electric drill the cylinder is held down in some fashion; With this power hone it’s a hands on grab it & go situation. Many an operator has slashed a finger or two as the mandrel grabs & the cylinder spins.


    This is a 125 cylinder & 175 Blaster which are mounted on a 3 point long stone mandrels. With this mandrel arraignment the cylinder is honed Round & Straight. This is the only hone set up which guarantees straight cylinder sizing.





    If you’ve been around a Sunnen, you’re familiar of how they work. Any shop that’s been using this machine will have more invested in the tooling than the machine is worth.



    This is a view of a 700 Suzuki with a 102mm bore, the largest we’ve seen yet in our shop. Notice the double stone set on this mandrel; this particular stone set is designed for sizing bores which are splined. The mandrel is excellent for honing large bore 2 stroke cylinders.


    A Sunnen power stroker which we had in our old location

    Lastly in our shop is a vertical power stroker hone. It’s taken me around 6 months to get this machine up & running.

    This is me after 50 years in the shop. This is a wonderful machine; as Clint says, “we must realize our limitations”. The machine is only as good as the head which is fitted.


    As usual I fit a Sunnen hone head to the vertical machine; Quicker & much faster adjustments

    This machine runs from 25mm – 120mm bore diameter

    Honda 50 Suzuki 700 Quad



    Any questions, we all learn together. This is the first “How it’s Done” for the 3 wheeler. If any of you folks have an idea of a machine shop project, let us know. If you are also a machinist of wannabe with a project, post it & share it with the rest of the readers. We all learn together.

    Stay tuned

    My experience has only come from a high school education, our shop & the family business. Anyone can be successful at small business if; you are willing to Bust Your Ass for a lifetime. I know; I’m 67 & plan on working till I drop.

    John Tice
    503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
    www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
    Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971
    Call me most any time


    Last edited by John Tice; 11-09-2015 at 01:14 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Portland Oregon
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    Question Sleeving the Suzuki 700

    Suzuki 700 Quad The Big One

    You folks with those plated cylinders which never wear out; This week’s thread is for you to read & learn. Plated cylinders over time do wear out; for many years we have been watching this situation. Some may disagree with our opinion which is; with a good assortment of available over sized pistons, a sleeved cylinder is as good as or better than a plated cylinder.

    Before we get into the 700 Quad; I’d like to say that www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com are one in the same
    We no longer manufacture production sleeves as NWS has been popular for. Our specialty is & will be the one off custom installations which are unavailable elsewhere.

    After all of these years the plated cylinders are starting to wear out. It would seem as though they are coming in faster to us as they are starting to go. We do as much 4 stroke liner replacement as the 2 stroke machines. I’ll throw in one or the other as the interesting jobs come in.

    Last month we got one of the big ones; Suzuki 700 Quad, 102mm of Grunt. For you folks without a calculator, 102mm is a shade over a 4” diameter bore. This cylinder for a small engine is a Biggie.

    The seize marks can be seen in the bore

    The first step in the sleeving process is removing the plating. As etching a 2 stroke cylinder; the jug goes into the acid bath for around ½ hour

    The cylinder bubbles away as the plating dissolves.

    This method is far & away more efficient than attempting to remove the plating on the lathe or a boring bar.

    I bought a canned sleeve 1/8” thick from a local NAPA store. Using an automotive sleeve is far more efficient chomping away on one of our thick 2 stroke castings.
    The cycle shops with those bench top cylinder boring machines are in for quite a struggle. I purchased a model FN Kwik Way machine from a Harley shop which went out of business. The model FN is a large Robust piece of equipment; the size range goes from 2 ¾” – 5” bore diameters.


    Kwik-Way model FN

    The first challenge for us was mounting a 102mm bore cylinder on a stand with a 3” slot. The cylinder clamped up OK but the top of the bore is a different storey. I needed to use a couple of our spacer bars so the tool holder would clear the table as it rotates around.


    Clamping this large cylinder is the same as clamping smaller ones with the use of the spacer bars.

    Those of you who are familiar with the smaller Kwik Way machines may notice how much heavier this machine is.

    The next step is to study the cylinder & decide how to get the job done. With 2 stroke cylinders we usually machine up a flanged sleeve so the liner is held in place from the top. With 4 stroke cylinders, my procedure is to bore to a step at the cylinder bottom. The cylinder is held in place with a light squeeze from the top. Our sleeve installations are usually fit tight enough & the flange or step is a double assurance that everything is tightly held in place.

    With the plating removed boring the cylinder to size is an easy operation. In a 4 stroke cylinder I usually install a 1/16” thick sleeve. This allows for up to a +.040” oversize bore. The thickness of the sleeve installed depends on the diameter of the base of the cylinder which fits into the crankcase. The piston over sizes also has something to do with the project. Wiesco my favorite doesn’t make a piston for this particular cylinder; neither doe’s any of the other PMI brands make a piston. PMI Inc. owns Wiesco, PE & Pro-x piston brands.

    The last bore for the new sleeve is a very light oiled pass which is very smooth. At this point we double check the bore diameter & turn the sleeve to have a +.004” press fit.


    The cylinder is heated to 500deg., Before we drop in the new liner. We most always use the 500deg. Heat temp for our base line temp.

    After the new sleeve is installed; we put a tight press fit for bedding the new liner.


    On to the vertical hone for finish sizing; I bored the dimension around .010” small so we can adjust the new vertical hone for a straight fit.

    The hone is fit with a Large Sunnen hone head which is easily adjustable. Unfortunately our vertical hone does not lay a true 45deg. Cross hatch pattern.

    The final skirt clearance & cross hatching is honed with our Sunnen connecting rod machine


    I gave the finish fit a loose +0025” clearance.
    There is a lot of hype stating that the plated cylinders dissipate heat better than a sleeved cylinder. My rebuttal question is; Why does the Wiesco piston use the same skirt clearance, whether plated of iron lined???



    Stay Tuned
    JT www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
    Turning custom cylinder sleeves since 1971 Your full service cylinder repair shop.
    We return them Round & Straight Any Questions? Call most any time until 9PM Pacific 503-593-2908
    :
    Last edited by John Tice; 11-04-2015 at 09:36 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Portland Oregon
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    174

    Thumbs up KX 500 New Sleeve

    Sleeving KX500
    This is a typical stuck KX500 cylinder


    Since we are unaware of the history of the cylinder, it’s difficult to determine why this happened.
    The cylinder has a canned pre-ported sleeve installed in it. My suspicion is that the sleeve was improperly installed. (The sleeve was more than likely fit too loose which caused bad heat dissipation)


    The cylinder also has a crack between a couple of the exhaust ports.
    It’s customary to remove the stuck sleeve & measure the fit. A sleeve with this large bore diameter will customarily have a +.005” press fit. This sleeve was really stuck & needed to be removed with a boring bar.


    Cylinder is counter bored for the new sleeve flange; This time the lathe was used.

    Cylinder has been bored for the new sleeve. You can see some skid marks in the freshly cut bore which needs to be honed straight & round.




    Most every time; Centrifugally or Green sand, we start from scratch every job.

    I’d suspect that the reason the cylinder first stuck is because the sleeve had an improper fit. The average cycle shop may have a cylinder boring machine but not the proper honing equipment required to get the proper just rite fit.









    As necessary; cylinder tops & bottoms are mounted & mandrel turned for best accuracy


    Sleeves cut in the Early Days (circa 1976)



    A light push holding things in place while parts cool


    After the cylinder is prepared for the new sleeve it’s time to mark & cut the ports. The blank sleeve is installed in a 500deg. pre-heated cylinder. After everything has cooled to around “Spit Hot” The cylinder & sleeve is immersed in acid for 15 minutes or so.




    The port locations are accurately marked for precise alignment




    Port locations are accurate & precise


    In this particular view the left rear transfer is smaller than the right side. This is a factory flaw which a builder such as Arlan Lehman at LED performance can remedy with his Flo-Bench.
    Factory craftsmanship can always be improved on with some knowledge & extra effort.











    There can be a lot more to a sleeve job than just picking a new sleeve from the Wiesco or Pro-X catalog. At Small Engines & N. W. Sleeve we’ve been at it for many years; Sleeve installs seldom the same.


    John Tice
    503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
    www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
    Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    NEPA
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    Super awesome John. Thanx for posting .
    Please help those who cannot help themselves.

    ALWAYS buying Museum quality machines,3 and 4 wheels. And any and ALL ,NOS parts,EVERY brand.

    I am turning my PM's Off,my Email is billsracing@hotmail.com,put 3WW in the subject. Thanx!

    Gun laws do not stop criminals. BULLETS do.

  5. #5
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    Feb 2011
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    Surprise, AZ
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    Primo work as usual, thank you for sharing John
    Email- onformula1@hotmail.com Rebuilt, Revalved, custom springs, lowering, forks & shocks, Custom Suspension, all brands, 2-3-4 wheeler's- PM or Email with questions.

    ***Check out my album for cool pictures*** http://www.3wheelerworld.com/album.php?albumid=2527

    As always- Everything I post is IMHO.

  6. #6
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    Awesome thread.

    Thanks!

  7. #7
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    Portland Oregon
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    If any of you have stories to add with a camera; share your project with the readers.
    Welding, metal fab & frame repairs, we all learn together.
    It takes a while for this thread to catch on. If any of you have cylinder questions, please let us know. Many cycle shops have an Egg Beater hone or a boring bar with little knowledge of how to make them work properly. We will share what we know; I’m attempting to share our knowledge so your local cylinder work will turn out properly.
    JT

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Portland Oregon
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    Looking forward to working on one There needs to be over sized pistons available before I like to sleeve them.
    It's not fair to the to the customer otherwise,
    JT

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Portland Oregon
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    Question Measure your skit clearance

    This thread may be old hat to most of you but I see over & over every month; how do I MEASURE MY PISTON CLEARANCE? This same thread goes into the 3 forums that contain my columns.
    Now days imported measuring tools are so inexpensive that there’s no reason for a good mechanic not to include them in their tool kit.

    First is a set of micrometers; as with the bore gauge, EBay is a good place to shop. A set from 0” – 6” is the best choice.


    Over the years I’ve acquired many types of micrometers

    It seems like everybody has a technique for measuring pistons. I like to start at the bottom of the piston 90deg to the wrist pin. Gently tighten the mandrel until a very light resistance is felt; next I wiggle the mic while loosening & tightening up to the wrist pin centerline. It’s fairly easy to determine the largest diameter. Some pistons have a belly in the bottom about 1/3 of the way up. Always do this 2 or 3 times for each piston & write the sizes down on a scratch pad.



    Write all of your dimensions down to help avoid any mistakes





    Measuring the ID of the bore is just as tricky as the piston dimensions; Telescoping gauges are handy to use at times as also the dependable yet clumsy inside micrometer. The depth micrometer has value measuring flange dimensions.



    As with most tools several tries with a telescoping are required to get a final dimension.

    Many times the mechanic can slip in a snap gauge where a dial bore gauge won’t fit


    Seldom is there a place for a caliper whether it be digital or dial

    These tools are easy to read a bad dimension


    A good dial bore gauge

    I just picked up another for shop #2 for a whole $44.00.


    Setting the dial gauge requires rocking the micrometer in different directions several times to make sure that the smallest dimension is attained.


    Once the final dimension is attained, we simply rotate the dial to a zero setting


    Digital dial gauges are a real PAIN

    Extremely difficult to set to zero.


    Dial gauges are tricky to fit into a cylinder while mounted in the cylinder boring stand.






    Calculating the skirt clearance is fairly easy; The bore diameter minus the piston diameter. When the forged pistons first came out, they needed to be fit fairly loose. Now day’s forged pistons are fit as tight as the cast models. The operation of fitting pistons gets to be a routine operation in our shop. Mainly; there is NEVER a reason or excuse to make any mistakes in the piston fit. It’s best to do this close & final work without any interruptions.

    There are seldom any questions about any of the threads?
    There must be some sometimes?
    Please ask; it helps keep this site going



    John Tice
    503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
    www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
    Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Surprise, AZ
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    John, thank you for the info, as always.

    I think you would get more play/questions if you took this thread out of- Mad Scientists Lair and put it in the plain Trikesylvania area.

    You don't seem to get the response like E2S, where you are a full blown celebrity!

    Billy can make that happen.

    Thank you, Huge fan of your work.
    Email- onformula1@hotmail.com Rebuilt, Revalved, custom springs, lowering, forks & shocks, Custom Suspension, all brands, 2-3-4 wheeler's- PM or Email with questions.

    ***Check out my album for cool pictures*** http://www.3wheelerworld.com/album.php?albumid=2527

    As always- Everything I post is IMHO.

  11. #11
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    Aug 2015
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    Maybe Billy can make the change
    JT

  12. #12
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    I didn't have any questions as a machinist on measuring instruments part. I thought you explained it all very well and I've learned quite a bit so far from your threads as we've decked and chamfered cylinders, cut new valve reliefs in piston tops, and bore carbs for a local GNCC champ but have never tackled sleeving at all. From a machinist, I can say its a top notch tutorial. I definitely appreciate the knowledge.Thanks John.

    Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

  13. #13
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    Aug 2015
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    Portland Oregon
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    Follow the thread & you’ll learn more than you need to know

    John Tice
    503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
    www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
    Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971

  14. #14
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    Jun 2010
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    House Springs MO
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    Can we make this thread Sticky'd so it doesn't get buried? John thank you for the write up, because I seriously could read your work all day long. I wish I would have applied myself more in school and pursued a career in machining instead of what I do for a living.

  15. #15
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    Question

    Thank you for the kind words; “How it’s Done” keeps me so busy that I can’t keep up. This is why I’ve decided to throttle things back some. It’s time for somebody else to step up & lend a hand. There will be cylinder repairs to support a family for years to come. A machine shop background or a couple years in community college are an absolute must. I can’t train a person who can’t read a micrometer. We have time to do this together but need to get started. Give me a call after dinner.


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