Hypothetical Firearms Question...

[Caminofeld]

If my Wife ever gave me permission to purchase a DMR (not that I would EVER consider owning a gun), what would you guys recommend? I've always liked the Springfield M1 (especially the "super match"), but would consider an AR-10. I would be looking for something around the $2k mark that takes a hi-cap mag, preferably in .308, and could make a 1k yard head shot (I've hit a 12" gong at 1k with a 22" M1 after many tries). Any suggestions on makes or models would be greatly appreciated…even though I would NEVER buy a gun…

[x-rider]

Montana rifle company.I'm sure if you talk to someone there they'll point you in the rights direction.

[Scootertrash]

Sidebar:

I had a nice chat with a friend of mines son who is a Navy Seal who did 2 (maybe 3, can't remember) tours in Afghanistan. He's now a Weapons Specialist in the Seals.

He attributed his interest in weaponry to an experience He had shortly before he left for the Navy. His Uncle (also a good friend) brought him up to shoot clay pigeons before he went on his first South Dakota Pheasant hunt. We shot some pigeons and then I introduced him to the AR15 and the M1 Garand. The finale of the afternoon was I put a stuffed bunny up on the shooting pile and I told him that if he was going to be a Navy Seal, he would have to be able to kill anything without emotion, so he had to shoot the stuffed bunny. Little did he or anyone else in attendance besides my wife and I, know that I had split the seam on the bunnys back and put a 1 lb bottle of tannerite inside the bunny. .

He thanked me for giving him that experience and said that after that day he knew what he'd do once he became a Seal. Kinda funny, when he was overseas his Mom would point her finger at me and say "It's all because of you!". Not mad, just poking fun.

Back on topic:

Well, the difficulty of a 1K headshot aside, snipers have historically used bolt action rifles for a reason. A 1000 yd headshot is a sniper shot, not a Designated Marksman shot. IIRC the military considers up to 600 yds to be DMR range.

What do you consider a "high capacity magazine"? You're not falling for the old media High cap magazine BS are you?

Typically a DMR has a standard capacity of 20 rounds and is a semi-automatic configuration. 30 rounds in .308 or 30-06 gets heavy, and a 30 rd magazine can hinder the use of a bipod.

Sniper rifles usually run 5-10 rounds capacity wise, in a bolt action format, but there are semi-automatic versions of sniper rifles.

One of my regular websites puts forth a "Get Both" mentality, with which I concur.

So, in conclusion, my recommendations would be:

For a "Sniper" rifle, I would go with a Remington Model 700 or a Winchester Model 70 in .308. I know they still use the 700 today, and possibly the Model 70 also. Personally, I would prefer an older model from the 70's or 80's fine tuned.

For a "DMR" I would go with an AR10 or an SR25, caliber .308. The AR10 being a more affordable and more readily available option for your hometown designated marksman. The AR flavor of rifles are very accurate. If they weren't so danged expensive I'd opt for a semi auto Browning BAR (The WWI and WWII BAR)

That is, if one were to consider buying such a device.........


One piece of advice: DO NOT frequent island shooting ranges. Boating accidents are faaaarr too common.


FWIW, I've shot prairie dogs at 450-500 yards with a 22-250. A head shot at 1000 yards would take lots of practice and skill. "Doping" for long shots is a skill in and of itself, that's why our military has sniper teams. 1 guy reading conditions and calling the shot, 1 guy doing the shooting, although the sniper has the skills to call the shot and read conditions himself if needed.

ETA: Never shot an M1A, so I left it out of my recommendations, although I'm sure it would fit right in with the AR/SR I mentioned.

[Caminofeld]

20-30 rds is a "hi-cap" for me. Basically looking for something I can reach out and touch someone with but still be effective in a CQC firefight if need be…essentially one last purchase before draconian gun laws potentially take place…and don't think I'm some sniping badass, when I say "many" I mean it…but from what I've learned the definition of a DM is <1k yd effective range (also the range of a decent.308 rd before it dives SS).

[RIDE-RED 250r]

1000yd head shots are EXTREMELY difficult and pretty much impossible without you being very well trained AND being accompanied by a well trained spotter. These are tough shots, even for the pros. Wind comes into play a great deal at the range, so do up and down drafts. Lots to know and know how to compensate for...

All that aside, the ONLY platform that will give you the needed basics in terms of that goal will be a high quality bolt action, specifically one made for shooting a great distance. Your semi-auto "black" rifles just are not designed for this and are generally incapable of it aside from getting lucky lobbing shots in. The only real exception to this rule is the Barrett 50BMG semi-auto sniper rifle. The shear BC and capability of the 50BMG round more than makes up for any disadvantage of being a semi-auto. It's right at home playing at 1000yds with confirmed kills of a mile or more, the world record being over a mile and a half. But the record holder used... a Macmillan TAC50 bolt action.

And still aside from that, you are going to need a larger, heavier bullet with a higher BC than the .308 has to be able to make those shots once you get all of the other stuff down pat. The 308 is a great round for sure, but a consistent 1000yd killer is pushing it's limits by alot. You will want to look at your more powerful 300 magnums and even 338 magnums for this. 338 cal bullets offer a significant increase in BC over the 30 cals... 338 Lapua Mag is one shining example of this with others like the 338-378 Weatherby Mag, and 338 RUM in the mix as well.. Most experienced distance shooters will tell you that 600yds is starting to reach the limits of the 308s ability to consistently hit the intended target. At 1000yds they are on the brink of going sub-sonic. Just running the basic ballistics calculator on Hornady's website, with a 100yd zero, the 308 Win is predicted to be barely 1200fps and -375" at 1000yds. This was run using one of their best 165gr bullets with a BC of .414 and a muzzle velocity of 2800fps. Wind drift at that distance will have huge effects as well.

And then there is the optics... The scope and the features you will need on it to shoot at those ranges will cost as much or more than the rifle you are mounting it to. Your "basic" 3x9x40 isn't going to cut it. That subject can be a thread topic on it's own.

Sounds to me like you need TWO rifles... hypothetically speaking of course... A high quality bench rest/sniping rifle, and a nice "black" rifle... (I refuse to call them "Assault" rifles) All of that said, have fun hypothetically shopping.

[Mosh]

Not much to expound upon with Joes post, but in shorter words, if it were me, I would go with with a decent bolt action in .308 with a good scope, and get a AR 15 for CQB. You could do both for that price range. The only reason I suggest that is .308 ammo is nearly double the price of .223 ammo and more difficult to find in bulk quantities. Even reloading .308 versus .223 is not much in savings by comparison. Pretty sure I have my .223 rounds down to 15 cents a round. My buddy just got the SA -M1a cqb. It is a cool piece, however a second hi-cap mag is 40 bucks each if you can even find it..but I started doing some math on ammo prices and store bought stuff versus reloading for him..New stuff is hitting about 46 cents a round in .308..Reloading that round at current prices can be done for about 38 cents a round in my estimated math. Maybe Joe can elaborate on that figure if I am off
.In comparison. 223 sells bulk for about 35 cents a round and as stated can be reloaded for half that cost. I only bring that up because at some point I feel reloading is going to be the only affordable or even only way to be able to shoot those rounds if we continue on this political climate..

[RIDE-RED 250r]

While I'm not sure about the cost of reloading 223/5.56 as I do not own a rifle chambered in that cartridge, I can say that I reload other ammo for usually less than half the cost unless I buy brand new virgin brass. I reload for 38spl, 357mag, 44mag, 460 S&W Mag, 375 Winchester, 270 Winchester, and 338 Win Mag. Some of that stuff is ridiculously expensive when buying at a store..

But I would not be surprised to if reloading 223/5.56 doesn't net as much savings do to the sheer quantity of it out there in circulation and being manufactured, kind of like reloading 9mm. Yes you will save, but not by as much as some cartridges. My 338 is a good example of stupid expensive factory ammo, starting at $60 per 20ct box. Even buying new virgin brass, I am barely over $1 per round... next trip through the press I can deduct the cost of brass and now it's well under $1 per round.

Lets see.. Primer: $0.03, Bullet: $0.40, Powder: $0.35 give or take... I'm making my 338 Win Mags for appx $0.78 each. Less than a third the cost of the cheapest factory ammo. Add about $1 each if new brass is needed... still cheaper than factory ammo by a significant amount.

But all of that savings varies depending on what you are reloading. It's pretty much always cheaper to reload, but by how much is what can vary greatly.

[Stingray]

6.5 Creedmore in an AR-10 platform. Much better BCs - range and accuracy than a 308.

[Scootertrash]

My suggestions were based on my assumption that this item would be for a SHTF type scenario. With that premise in mind I opted for .308 caliber rifles for ammo availability. Just about every hunter/gun owner I know has a .308 or 30.06 or 1 of each (Get Both).

[Caminofeld]

6.5 Creedmore in an AR-10 platform. Much better BCs - range and accuracy than a 308.

Scooter took the words right out of my mouth. 6.5 CM is better, but pricier and less common than .308. Now that I have some time I've made my final decision:
Buying a "precision loaded" M1 and building an AR10 (hypothetically…aka if I actually owned a gun).

[Caminofeld]

Anyone heard anything or had any experience with the FNX-45 tactical?

Now that I hypothetically am getting the M1, any recommendations on a decent scope that won't break the bank? Must be illuminated...

[Caminofeld]

FYI barely missed a bid on a Sage tactical EBR chassis