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Thread: basic thumb vs twist throttle question

  1. #31
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    Kinda partial to Tecates (the most powerful three wheeler on the universe) I see.
    IF I had to be roasted atleast it was by the guy that designed the Tecate

  2. #32
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    I would like to give a tip of the hat to a winning racer of that day, Barnett. That is very impressive and an outstanding accomplishment to win a main National on a track of legends with the fear instilling qualities of the Tecate.
    I think now that with certainty it can be said thumb throttles and Tecates is a thumbs down. All those who agree say i.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Camexican View Post
    Twist throttles cost much less than thumb throttles. This may be why they ended up on the Mighty Tecate trikes. Cost savings may also explain easily discolored gas tank materials and electrical components on these trikes. Yamaha on the other hand put more attention into such details on their Tri-Z
    El Camexican, did the tri-z come with a thumb or twist? I checked one black and yellow one out one time at a dealership eons ago. Yamaha and Honda did have a more quality look than the green missles Kawasaki beat all them at the track with.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fieldy View Post
    El Camexican, did the tri-z come with a thumb or twist? I checked one black and yellow one out one time at a dealership eons ago. Yamaha and Honda did have a more quality look than the green missles Kawasaki beat all them at the track with.
    Came with thumb
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by this old rz View Post
    Okay perhaps I am just not getting it it's been a long time since I've used a thumb throttle but I hear people saying they have trouble with twist is there an inherent problem with a Twist throttle as most all dirt bikes ever made have a twist w no real issues? it is it something that having triangulated rear wheels makes a difference on I would think not ? For me I don't perceive any real problem with either or with the exception of I'm going to have hand problems with either or due to carpal tunnel and arm pump so if my phone holds up through the arch I don't really care I'm just curious as ever it a lot have different opinions
    I can go either way... I guess you can call me a "Bi-Throttler. lol The only reason for me to use one over the other is its what ever is on the bike. If its got a thumb Throttle ill use it, if its a twist? Ill use it. Hell when I was a kid we had an old Rupp Roadster with no throttle so we tied a piece of string to it and tied the other end to our leg and just moved our knees in and out to go fast or slow. lol

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnett468 View Post
    which was won by ME with Jimmy getting second and Honda lagging somewhere further behind in OUR dust . Another FACT is that I won that race using our test bike which had the stock electrical system and mostly stock chassis, suspension, swing arm, and clutch.
    Nice...did you ever race Motocross on two Wheelers back in the 70s? there was a Barnett who was a racer back then. As I recall he was pretty good too!

  7. #37
    efhondakid's Avatar
    efhondakid is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    I like the twistys for flat track, when you can be tucked in and locked out and the throttle is right in your lap. But harescrambles no thank you, my dad ran a twist on his R when he raced them and has the state title to prove it worked for him, so again it goes back to that personal preference.
    2 in the back, 1 in the front.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fieldy View Post
    El Camexican, did the tri-z come with a thumb or twist? I checked one black and yellow one out one time at a dealership eons ago. Yamaha and Honda did have a more quality look than the green missles Kawasaki beat all them at the track with.
    Yes, the Tri-Z came with a thumb throttle that could barely open a 34mm carb all the way

    The FACT (some folks like to capitalize that word) is that Yamaha was the last one to the race trike party and had the least amount of development in it and likely had little to no support for privateers. Consider that both Honda and Kawasaki factory programs before the first Tri-Z was ever released to the public. It’s pretty hard to get a privateer to sell last year’s trike at a loss and change his wardrobe in order to buy an unproven trike. Then came the issues that ended trike sales in the USA, so aside from a few small improvements like the front end and a 6th gear from 85 to 86 Yamaha was at least another year away from well rounded product.

    Watch the old videos of trike races on YouTube, it’s a sea of green. Honda had factory riders at all the events, but if you were racing on your own dime seems you had to go green, or pony up for a Tiger, or some other exotic trike, I don’t think anyone will argue that. This is a common thread in all motorsports; the vehicle that can be purchased and made race ready for the least amount of money will always be the privateers choice. Going only off what I recall reading the Tecate had a tighter ratio transmission and a power band better suited to a track than a trail, so that was what the masses raced.

    Fast forward 30 years and running Tecate’s are a lot harder to find that Hondas and Yamaha’s. Availability is so bad that at least one of Kawasaki’s former employees had had to suck it up and buy a Tri-Z in order to have a decent ride.

    Anyone who would argue that the Honda’s weren’t the most reliable and refined trikes of the day is delusional. There’s no such thing as a trike that can do everything perfectly, but Honda came the closest. Kawi went for the race market and Yamaha took deliberate steps to make the Tri-Z user friendly with a very detuned 250 engine, a headlight that didn’t tear off the first time you rode into a bush and a well-protected air box. Had the Tri-Z been designed as a racing trike they would have come with a YZ engine, larger carb, a disposable headlight… and maybe even a twist throttle

    Would anyone have surpassed Honda in sales, or Kawasaki as the privateers first choice had the ban not happened, or just delayed a few years? Who knows, in racing, today’s peacock is tomorrows feather duster, but one thing is indisputable; Honda’s were engineered and marketed to make money for the Honda Corporation and they blew all the others out of the water in sales. Perhaps their success can be attributed to being smart enough to fit thumb throttles on them knowing that anyone who wanted to could later convert them to twist throttles for a few bucks? It’s small details like this that separate successful engineers from those who gave the world the Edsel and handlebar mounted headlights.
    It sucks to get old

  9. #39
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    This is obviously unrelated to the thread topic (off point as someone here might say), however, since some of you seem to be entertained by it and the thread isn't getting trashed, I will post a reply for some peoples possible enjoyment whom will most likely be Kawasaki owners.


    Quote Originally Posted by El Camexican View Post
    Availability is so bad that at least one of Kawasaki’s former employees had had to suck it up and buy a Tri-Z in order to have a decent ride.
    This in incorrect . The capitalized FACT is that the former (PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT) he is referring to is aware of several TECATE's that are for sale and can buy anyone one of them if he wanted and he primarily bought his mostly original Yammie with the original matching number engine to whore out on Ebay for a profit after he details it.



    Quote Originally Posted by El Camexican View Post
    Going only off what I recall reading the Tecate had a tighter ratio transmission and a power band better suited to a track than a trail, so that was what the masses raced.
    In my opinion (not that my opinion matters), the FACT that the 250r had a SIX SPEED gearbox compared to the Tecate's FIVE SPEED gear box suggests that the Honda should have been better overall, yet both had a fairly similar top speed and the Tecate would still beat the Honda 9 times out of 10 not only in the direct back to back tests that I performed, but also in several tests the magazines performed . I can only speculate in fear just how fast a Tecate would have been if it had a six speed gear box.




    Quote Originally Posted by El Camexican View Post
    It’s small details like this that separate successful engineers from those who gave the world the Edsel and handlebar mounted headlights.
    Hmmm, lets see, if I recall correctly, "The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!" won SEVERAL Championships that Team Honda competed in, and in FACT, Honda was in such fear of the mighty Tecate that it became so desperate to win at times that they not only barred Kawasaki riders practicing in advance of race day like their riders could at the races they sponsored, they also got caught red handed CHEATING on not just one but TWO separate occasions . In addition, they STOLE the top end off of one of their own riders bikes for one major race hoping that it would help one of their other riders they liked better win instead.

    Based on "small details like this" which are FACTS, I would say that the engineers and others whom were involved in the development of "The TECATE....The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!" were quite successful.



    PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT

  10. #40
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by czac View Post
    Nice...did you ever race Motocross on two Wheelers back in the 70s? there was a Barnett who was a racer back then. As I recall he was pretty good too!
    I don't want to detour this thread but I will briefly reply by saying, yes, I rode in the PRO MX class and raced against a few of the top riders in the world on a few occasions, however, I was not one of them . I was more of a good a local level PRO and put much more time into practicing pounding beers and chasing chicks than I did practicing racing . If you google my name you will see it appear several times in old Cycle News magazines . The Barnett you are thinking of is likely factory Suzuki rider Mark Barnett. and if so, then yes, you recall correctly, he was very fast.



    PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
    AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT .

  11. #41
    efhondakid's Avatar
    efhondakid is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Would the difference in power be that the Tecate (most powerful trike in the universe) motor is basically a KX250 motor that was already a proven motor as compared to the R and Z that were more or less new designs, few quest from their two-wheeled counterparts. That and the lack of counter balancer which I'm sure robs some power?
    2 in the back, 1 in the front.

  12. #42
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by efhondakid View Post
    Would the difference in power be that the Tecate (most powerful trike in the universe) motor is basically a KX250 motor that was already a proven motor as compared to the R and Z that were more or less new designs, few quest from their two-wheeled counterparts. That and the lack of counter balancer which I'm sure robs some power?
    Xlnt question . The Tecate cylinder was a brand new design made specifically for that app, and I and one other person whom were the primary test riders tested a few different ones to determine which one we liked best . We also tried several different pipes . After we were done, we let the other R & D bike riders try it to get their feedback . The design was far different and far less powerful from that of the KX250 . I, Chris White, and Donnie Luce all ran Harry Klemm modified Tecate cylinders and heads and one of his pipes along with stock Tecate ignitions on our race bikes . The parts we got from Harry were exactly the same as the ones he made available to the public, therefore, we didn't have any advantage like the one off works parts that the Team Honda riders had access to . Jimmie White, got a KX250 cylinder and had Daryll Bassani port the bejesus out of it and make a pipe for it and ran a KX250 stator, so his bike had more power than ours . People often attribute Jimmies great starts to riding skill, however, they were mainly due to his bike . I and most any top PRO rider could have gotten equally good starts on his bike.

    The gear ratio on the Tecate's is also different than the KX250 and we went through a few different combos until we settled in one that we felt would be best overall.

    Yes, you could say that in one way the counter balancer will eat a little hp kinda sorta, but that really is a complicated subject . It's also important to keep in mind that even though the Kawi had more power than the Honda, we knowingly paid a price for some of that extra power by not running a counter balancer because the lack of one caused the bike to vibrate far more than a Honda which many people complained about, so I'm guessing that issue hurt sales to some degree . I definitely noticed a big difference in vibration between the Honda and the Kawi but the greater vibration of the Kawi never bothered me, however, if it was any worse, it would have been unacceptable for production in most peoples opinions at Kawi so it definitely was on the threshold of being excessive even for us.




    PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
    AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT

  13. #43
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    I have all of the big three, the 250R (82,84,86), the Tecate (84-87), and TRI-Z (86), so I have a pretty good vantage point to compare them. All my 86's are modded essentially the same, hi-comp piston, aftermarket exhaust, 38 mm carburetor, etc., and they are all 250s (no big bores). Some day I might do a write up comparing them all on suspension, handling, etc. Focusing on the engines for now, I can say the Honda is the slowest. I'm not saying this as a partisan of any manufacturer--I love all my boys. And I am not talking about top speed but how fast it gets there. I've come to the conclusion that the reason the Honda is the slowest is its huge counterbalancer. If you've taken it out before, you know it weighs a ton. It gives the engine an even, almost no hit power band, but it also slows its revs significantly. Having said that, I think the Honda has the highest build quality and reliability. Regarding the Tecate vs. TRI-Z engines, that's a hard call. Honestly, I would give the edge to the TRI-Z. Before I bought it I didn't expect a whole lot from the Z, mostly because what I read in old shootouts. After modding it out, however, including the Wrench Report, I can say it is an impressive engine. It is strong everywhere (for a 2 stroke) but also has a massive hit when you want it. The 1st generation Tecate also has a massive hit--probably harder than my Z--but it is weaker elsewhere and therefore harder to ride. I also like it that the 86 Z has a 6 speed transmission with good spacing. The Honda's 6th gear is too tall and the Tecate only has 5 gears that are too narrowly spaced for my tastes. Finally, I like it that they are all different. If they were all the same riding wouldn't be as fun.
    Last edited by christph; 01-20-2017 at 11:11 PM.

  14. #44
    barnett468 is offline FACT ! I have no edit button Arm chair racerThe day begins with 3WW
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    Quote Originally Posted by christph View Post
    I have all of the big three, the 250R (82,84,86), the Tecate (84-87), and TRI-Z (86), so I have a pretty good vantage point to compare them. All my 86's are modded essentially the same, hi-comp piston, aftermarket exhaust, 38 mm carburetor, etc., and they are all 250s (no big bores). Some day I might do a write comparing them all. Focusing on the engines for now, I can say the Honda is the slowest. And I am not talking about top speed but how fast it gets there. I've come to the conclusion that the reason the Honda is the slowest is its huge counterbalancer. If you've taken it out before, you know it weighs a ton.
    One of the fatal flaws in the Honda is the design of the transfer ports . They have far less of an arc to them then the Tecate does and they fought this problem the entire time which is one of the reasons Honda made one off works cylinders which they still had problems with . As far as the counter balancer weight goes, yes it is heavy but the diameter is far smaller than the flywheel, therefore, some of the additional weight of the rotating mass caused by the counter balancer can be offset by simply running a lighter flywheel which my guess is exactly what Honda did on their race bikes.


    PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
    AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT

  15. #45
    efhondakid's Avatar
    efhondakid is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    Man we really derailed this thread, but I do believe we answered the OPs question within the first two pages.
    2 in the back, 1 in the front.

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