What happens in Vegas,,,,

[redsox]

I thought that maybe some of you would want to continue discussing this, so I started this thread. I think its good stuff, and we can probably keep it pretty civil. There are very smart, like-minded people here with VERY different views. I think it'll make good debate.

I'm not going to squabble over semantics and a few thousand pounds, that's irrelevant. Here's some science and physics for you. Pretend you saw it on the news, maybe you'll understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJNzaMRsN00&t=193s

John, the science (or lack thereof) in this guys "experiments" is laughable. What did he use for scale? Oh ya, thats right. He used whatever he had lying around his garage. Call the people over at the Nobel Prize commission, we have a new candidate. Thats would have been a D+ in my high school physics class, at best, and I went to a school that had a reputation for molestation, so you can guess the quality of their sciences.

I'll talk 9/11 if you want, but i do generally avoid it in conversation, much the same way that you described i the other thread. But i'll break my own rules here and discuss. My goal though, isn't really to rehash 9/11, but to point out the same general blueprint used to make everything bad into a "conspiracy." This vegas event is current, and a PRIME example of such. So much so that before there even was an "official story" the watchdogs were out yelling "COVERUP!"

So, lets stick with 9/11. But, instead of me defending every derived notion of match sticks and firecrackers, let me volley the ball back. Explain the ticket sales to the hijackers. Explain the video of them boarding the planes. Explain the flight school attendance. Explain the rental cars. Explain the calls home from people on the plane. Explain the videos and zillion eye witness accounts of the planes bashing into the buildings. Explain to me who exactly the people are that have been shooting back at our military for the past 15 years. Explain to me the bodies on the USS Cole. Explain to me Eyad Ismoil, and the 1993 bombing of the trade center. Is radical Islam a myth? Ask Jeff Bauman if he believes in radical Islam because he saw it on the news. Or Martin Richard's father.

[redsox]

I still believe it's just some lonely kook who likes to choke/rape high end hookers.

Maybe I'm wrong.......I've been wrong before

I don't think that it was, but i'm not opposed to the possibility that it was. Thats the difference.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

ON the whole 9-11 thing, I lean toward believing that it was in fact terrorist hijackers. I'm not saying we have been told the whole story, but like I said before, it's so hard for us to know who to believe when we don't have first hand knowledge. People lie, the government lies, it's very hard to know who is giving it to us straight. No, jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt structural steel, but it any interior structure fire generates plenty enough heat to alter it's integrity. Ask any firefighter how hot the inside of a burning building gets. It certainly isn't like they portray it in the movies, people walking around in a burning building coughing occasionally. The heat alone is enough to instantly cause irreversible damage to your lungs and kill you. It gets hot enough that smoke will itself ignite, called flashover, which occurs usually north of 900 deg Fahrenheit. Normal everyday items found in our homes burn hot enough to cause this. Jet fuel raises the bar and I believe certainly hot enough to negatively impact the steel weakening it. We use heat to manipulate steel in our shops every day.

IMHO, Dan raises good questions that are hard to ignore. How long after 9-11 did we see some people in the middle east celebrating their victory wearing shirts depicting the burning towers? Not sure why they would celebrate it if they had nothing to do with it, much less if our own government did it. Do I believe our government is corrupt and full of liars?? Absolutely. Am I ready to take that leap and sign onto the belief our own government with the help of who knows how many of our own fellow citizens perpetrated 9-11??? No, I can't say I'm there. We can all argue till the cows come home that much of the middle east hates us because we meddle in things that we shouldn't. That is a subject that can be debated. But I'm not sure about the war for oil assertion either. I don't know about you all, but I never experience a huge drop in energy prices during or after the war that I would expect if we were really there for the oil and got it. Matter of fact, it was during the last years of GWB and early in BHO administration that gasoline went over $4 per gallon if I recall correctly... Where is the oil we went there to get?? Yes, fuel prices are lower now, but for what reason?? Last I knew the first major drop in crude we experienced 3 or 4 years ago was due to the Saudis increasing production massively, probably to drive competing countries out if the oil business but who knows, that's another debate in and of itself.

Back to the towers: I am not a structural engineer. Just a regular guy looking at this as a regular guy would. It seems to me that when enough load bearing steel beams weakened under the weight of the floors above them, collapsing straight down seems right to me. What would anyone expect??? For it to topple over like a tree that has been face cut and felled? (something I DO know a little bit about). Gravity wins, it's the single strongest and never dying force in the universe, and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. I don't see any other way those towers would fall unless manipulated to do so and at great length.

I'll be straight honest here. A big part of the reason I have a hard time swallowing the "9-11 was an inside job" pill is due to some of the more prominent figures who promote it, chiefly among them being Micheal Moore. I can't stand that man or anything he claims to stand for. He is in my opinion a fraud and a radical socialist, neither of which I feel are good for our country. He is to me no different than Napoleon the pig from Animal Farm. So there's that....

John, I still count you a friend and I hope you understand that just because I may not quite see these things the same as you I would never hold it against you. I know you are a person who does more than his share of thinking and I know you don't assert things you don't truly believe in. As always, I respect your service and thank you for it.

All said and done, both sides of this issue call the other blind or asleep... I don't really know if that's fair to say. What I would like to know is what we are supposed to do if that big truth bomb is ever dropped and the 9-11 thing does turn out to be confirmed to be a cover up? What then?? I vote every election, locals included. I'm not sure what else we are to do??? Storm DC???? I don't think that will end well... I know we are living very hard and precarious times... I fear for my kids.

[knappyfeet]

I don't think that it was, but i'm not opposed to the possibility that it was. Thats the difference.

When this first started happening me and my click instantly thought it was a diversion.......after all Vegas is a money town.

Then the thought turned quickly to a terrorist attack......middle eastern type.

But when the dust settled and we found out it was an old white guy......a 65 year old retiree.....living in Misquite MV...... in a 55 and up community with his "honey ko" it was all disbelief.

We will never know a rational reason "why" he did what he did. It was evil. People are evil. This guy was evil. The logistics and what not.....all the people coming out...the choked hooker, the friend down under and even from his honey ko and her sister.....nothing really seems abnormal. He talked down to some...whatever. He like firearms and the 2nd amendment...that's everyone here.

Could he carry all this out with no help? Of course. He was an accountant by trade and education. There is no guessing or happenstance with them. Everything is leveraged and hedged and risk is evaluated for success or not a success....all by percentages. Outcomes are never guessed....it's more outcomes will be evaluated by performance for accuracy.

All the reservations around the country at similar events??.......test runs or a diversion. He knew all this would be scrutinized by the authorities. Sometimes it's just evil be evil. Who knows.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I agree, what happened in Vegas seems very fishy to me as well.

[knappyfeet]

Why the 3 or 4 other incidents of shots fired at the same time in other casino`s ?

Everything seems fishy when you view it through fishy lenses.......

Don't confuse reports of what someone thought were gunshots.......... with actual confirmed gunshots........ anybody can say anything but it doesn't make it so unless it's confirmed.

You go to the strip.......it sounds chaotic all the time.

I'm going to Vegas this weekend

[3 Wheel Drive]

I'm going to Vegas this weekend

https://youtu.be/7mSyA1fGE9k

[sledcrazyinCT]

So Las Vegas Police will hold another press conference on Friday this week to bring the public the latest developments in Paddock's motives......media is already trying to push this to the back page......meanwhile I still get emails about 31 ISIS camps in America funded by 44's FEMA some just a stone throws away from Vegas.....Hate to admit but there will never be closure with this event....gosh darn it two RINOS last week have asked POTUS Trump to finally declassify the JFK assassination....that only happened a half century ago and we still have conflicting reports of what occurred....leave it the FEDS to give it to you straight every time

[knappyfeet]

If you got over an hour to kill this police dispatch recording is very interesting.

In it.......reports of gunfire from multiple locations....multiple shooters.....a weirdo in an RV by Motel 6........ and my personal favorite.......a speeding black gmc dulley speeding away from the Luxor. They cleared all the other reports except the dulley......who knows.

https://youtu.be/1xAcTKNpDeY

I got peeps in Metro I'll be with

[atc007]

This is a very short clip of this video. There are many others. It will be taken down most likely. It is live as of now. You couldn't take Thorpes first hand account of what happened. Explain this please Knappy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg2-GvvxTaY

[knappyfeet]

You couldn't take Thorpes first hand account of what happened. Explain this please Knappy?

I can't explain that in an authoritive educated manner.

I don't question what Thorpe heard.....people hear everything and anything. If I remember his post correctly I had the impression Planet Hollywood was under assult and that wasn't accurate.

But....by the sound on that video there seems to be 2 different sounds and different pitches.....indicating to me impact sounds and muzzle firing sounds. In fact if you focus right before the shooting you hear a high "pop".......what seems like an impact pop followed by the sounds of the gun......about a half a second. With the fact that the bullet will travel 3 times faster than the sound it makes sense to hear that first impact pop followed by the lower frequency firing pop. Why intermittent? Maybe he was all over with his aiming or hitting people vs concrete/dirt/rocks/etc??....I really don't know. This is my guess.

[redsox]

No, that's two different guns firing at 2 different rates. The first one is definitely not fully automatic but likely assisted by a bump stock because the rate of fire on that weapon is not stable. The bigger question, if I were questioning, would be is there a possibility of this video having audio added to it.

Before anyone calls me an armchair expert because they can't stand anyone having experience they've never had, yes I have fired semi, full auto, and bump fire equipped weapons many times. I grew up immersed in gun culture and know what I'm hearing.

i thought this thread was dead. My intention was never to go all-in on 9/11 but thats what happend. oh well. Damon, excellent post. If i'm gonna shite on you when you post nonsense i've got to credit you when you contribute. The added audio is something thats never discussed but i often consider.

[Dirtcrasher]

Well - The timelines are all wrong.

1) Where is the video of him checking in or bringing stuff in? IT'S VEGAS!! Cameras everywhere!!

2) Where is the live, - Live recordings and or people streaming the show, recording the show; Even just audio....?? There's some out there but not nearly enough. WTF!!??

3) Why did he shoot the security guard if it was before the spree?? He had cameras, he knew his plays right?? He was just starting the killing spree according to the Mandagetlaid timeline....

4) So far this shooter is as clean as a whistle..... ( SO why!!?? use this white no problem, non activist or hater, as the scapegoat?? Why not a bearded Hyadji?? Why this loaf??).

4A) Why no ALLAH AKBAR!! I mean that's what the government wants us afraid of. Young bearded AK47 Osama Lovin Brother!!

5) Big lack of video on much of this and lots of fake/ edited material out there.

6) Left his gloves on to kill himself?? I can understand blood flowing under a bullet case but gloves??

7) If timing is right, I guess every damn gun jammed because he had killed himself before they came through the door.....

Are they gonna just use CGI's and then release what they want us to review and believe?? DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, chit doesn't ad up......

AGAIN!!

[Thorpe]

Everything seems fishy when you view it through fishy lenses.......

Don't confuse reports of what someone thought were gunshots.......... with actual confirmed gunshots........ anybody can say anything but it doesn't make it so unless it's confirmed.

You go to the strip.......it sounds chaotic all the time.

I'm going to Vegas this weekend

Chaotic yes, but for the 3 days prior that I was there, I wasn't getting shot at. You don't confuse a pos taxi's exhaust with gun shots inside. Or the broads scantily dressed trying to take pics, or the people handing out cards, or trying to sell you crap every few feet. Yeah it's busy, real busy, but gun shots inside of a casino, there is no mistaking that. I don't think I heard shots. I know I absolutely heard shots. I am not some millennial snowflake who scares easily. I spend a lot of time at the range, in the woods, at the reloading bench... It's one of the few hobbys I am truly passionate about. I spend countless hours reading about them, watching videos on them and a decent amount of time working on them. So knappy, you don't think a casino would have the financial motives to not want the negative publicity surrounded by gun shots in their casino? I am a sarcastic bullshitter, but by no means am I a liar. And I don't take kindly to anyone insinuating that I am...

[redsox]

Thorpe, I hope you don't think for one second that I was even insinuating that you were being anything but honest. If i came off that way I apologize. I was merely trying to make sense of it. Theorizing. I still can't see how someone shoots into a crowd from ground level and docent hit anyone. That leads me to believe it was return fire. just a theory. i'm open to others.