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Thread: .308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor

  1. #1
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    .308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor

    Looking to make an informed purchase, but I have very little first hand knowledge of these.
    I know there are some experts in here that can help me with real life experience.
    Mainly looking for advice on brand and caliber right now.

    I have never owned an AR platform. I love, love LOVE my Maadi AK, but I am now looking for something modern with optics.
    6.5 Creedmoor has superior ballistics to .308, that is not up for debate.
    I am most curious about current (and long term) availability and price comparison of the 2 rounds.

    I am not, nor do I plan to become a competitive marksman.
    This is for fun with my friends from 250 to 6 or 700 yards.
    Budget: $2000 + $1000 for optics and rail goodies.
    That is probably entry level pricing, which is where I am right now.

    Not interested at all in 5.56 or .223
    Also not interested in a build. As I said, I have almost zero knowledge and while I may build someday, I'm not looking for a project.
    What I want is something I can buy on-line or at my LGS, put a scope on, and take to the range.

    I know there are many boutique brands that offer very high quality products, but I don't know the good from the mediocre.
    Armalite invented the thing, so they are near the top of the list. Hopefully that is a correct assumption.
    Ideally, I'd like to end up with a brand I trust and own (Springfield, Ruger, and Colt are my go to's), but this is a new foray for me, so here I am asking for advice.

    Reliability is #1 priority. Accuracy is #2. I care exactly 0% about "looks," and I won't know about feel until I shoulder it anyway.
    I am 6' tall, 210# with fairly long arms if that matters. These stocks adjust anyway, right?

    There is one other option I'd like to explore, and that is 30-06.
    I know about the M1 Garand, but people don't part with these.
    I'm not sure if there is anybody making an equivalent today in that caliber and in my price range,
    but if there is, I'd like to explore that too.

    That should be enough info to get a conversation started. Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    new england
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    Never had a 6.5 but in reading it seems like a great round
    I have an armalite at-10 in 243 and with one pull of a pin I can add a 308 upper. That was my plan, years ago and I still find myself shooting the 243

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Bowling Green KY
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    Far more .308 platforms than Creedmore.

    A decade ago I had rifles in 8 or 9 different calibres not counting the shotguns or handguns. At one point, I had decided to consolidate calibres for ammo stocking purposes. It gets to be a space issue when you need to store alot of different sized ammo.

    In a SHTF scenario, I asked myself "If I were to run out of a particular size of ammo, which calibres would be the easiest to scavenge/scrounge/find laying around in a pinch?" because this is a real issue to consider should your gun stores suddenly not be open after Kim Jung EMP'ed our country. Sounds crazy, but well worth considering.

    With that, I decided to narrow it down to just four, .22, 7.62x51/.308 WIN, 7.62x39, and 5.56x45/223 (using Wylde barrels). I'm still debating adding a 300 win mag bolt rifle and I really like my old Yugo Mauser but 8mm is hard to find recently since most gun stores have only a box or two in stock at one time.

    NOW...If you're doing a bunch of hunting with it or you have a big ole Lee Reloading setup in your basement where you can restock yourself anywhere from 5-15 times on used casings depending on the load and plan to keep stocked up on bullets, powder, and primers then it's not a big deal.....unless you're forced to leave home base for whatever reason then it's hard to carry all that around in the Yukon.

    Now if it were me, and I really wanted the 6.5, the only difference between the two in an AR style platform is the barrel itself. I'm pretty sure you would use everything else that is used on an AR10/LR308 (depending on which lower/upper you have)(LR308 and DPMS pattern AR 308s have a different shape on the rear of the upper and lower receiver than the true AR10 and they are not interchangeable)(DPMS LR pattern is more common for ARs in 308)...all that being said, you could buy a Creedmoor barreled upper and have the headspace checked to make sure it would work with your 308 bolt carrier group and then buy a 308 calibre AR rifle and swap uppers when you feel froggy or the other way around. They use the same mags too BUT true AR10 Armalite pattern mags don't fit DPMS pattern lowers very well I've been told.

    It's as easy as pulling two pins to swap whole uppers and bolt carrier groups and you're done. Literally ten seconds.

    How to tell Armalite pattern from DPMS:

    Armalite has a 45 degree angle in the rear of the upper and lower both where they meetup and DPMS pattern has a large round radius



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    Last edited by ironchop; 05-07-2018 at 03:26 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Oh and as for reliability....well it's an AR design so keep it clean up in there. I also opted to keep the forward assist button just in case. I also run a bolt with dual ejectors.

    https://www.kakindustry.com/kak-industry-bcg-308

    I'm also considering converting to gas piston driven instead of direct gas impingement to keep all that smoke out of my upper. Right now I run a JP adjustable gas block

    Found this link with some great info on interchangeability....

    https://308ar.com/articles/compatibility/
    https://308ar.com/ar-10-308-ar-compa...ference-guide/
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    Last edited by ironchop; 05-07-2018 at 03:40 PM.

  5. #5
    Scootertrash's Avatar
    Scootertrash is offline Just Too Addicted: Protecting Our Community 4 Wheels? Huh?
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    This is where I got my .308 AR, they also have 6.5 Creedmore versions:

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/deals...ting-sale.html
    Prices have gone up a bit, but I want to say I got my lower with the overmolded grip for 179.99 :

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-g...516446483.html

    and I went with the 18in nitride upper I believe at the time it was 399:

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-p...516445313.html

    I'm using a Primary Arms 4-14X44 scope with a lighted reticle (you can use the scope with the reticle on or off). Lots of good reviews, I like the scope. Picked mine uup used off of ebay for a little under 200.

    http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-a...-pa4-14xffp308

    Lots of stuff says out of stock, but you have to keep checking back in often and also get on their notification list. I ran the gauntlet when I bought mine, took me a few tries before I was successful. I think most of the problem was my hesitation to spend the money.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I've only run about 50 rds thru it, but I'm pleased with the rifle. There were lots of complaints with the Gen 1 rifles, but it seems like they've worked them out with the Gen 2 rifles.

    I had one failure to eject/double feed on the second or third round, but not a hiccup after that. Accuracy was good, I just used the bipod, I haven't bagged it yet. I think accuracy will be better on bags. I just used some 180 gr soft point reloads on the first 50 rounds and didn't really try very hard. I've got some Mil surp ammo and I bought a box of Federal Gold Medal Match to test out too
    The mags drop free, there is a feeling amongst some that they are "overgassed", so some guys have put an adjustable gas block on theirs with satisfactory results in reducing the recoil impulse. In addition, some have added a muzzle brake (not a flash hider ) which they claim helps cut down on muzzle rise, others have changed out the buffer, again to reduce recoil impulse.

    I have an adj gas block and muzzle brake, just haven't installed them yet. I want to run a few more rounds thru it first. Not sure if I'm going to go with the heavier buffer, but a couple of the guys have said they've reduced recoil to AR15 levels.

    If I can find the thread I'll post a link. One of the guys ran several different kinds of ammo before and after the mods
    Who is Q?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabiodriven View Post
    Trick the people into thinking they're enacting their own will and you have willing slaves.

    Liberalism suspends the intellect of its victims, while at the same time tricking them into believing that they're smarter than everyone else.


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  6. #6
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    Ok, great feedback so far guys. It is much appreciated and I have checked out all of the links that have been posted.

    I'm not trying to get spread too thin with different calibers either. That is why I asked about 30-06 (my hunting rifle), but that is looking less feasible every day.
    I haven't hunted in years, and I have no immediate plans to reload -- although I can't rule either out in the future.

    It looks to me like .308 or 6.5 will well exceed any of my expectations. The 6.5 will be more comfortable to shoot, while the .308 packs a harder punch. Realistically they are both just punching holes in paper for me.

    Suddenly, this thread is a whole lot more about design (platform?) and brand (manufacturer) than caliber. That was my most helpful learning so far.
    If I understand correctly, I am either going to buy Armalite or DPMS design. Seems like that is personal preference anyway, but good to know that limits my interchangeability.

    I have also shopped around the web a bit in the past months and I do see quite a bit of "Out of Stock."

    This is going to be a bit of a leap of faith on my part in the end. At some point, I need to decide on a brand and pull the trigger (figuratively and literally).
    I'm really trying to learn and will continue to read up at 308AR.com.

    Few more questions.....

    What other helpful web sites are out there with info on this topic?

    If you guys were me, what brands would you be shopping?

    Can anyone comment on advantages / disadvantages of 16" vs 18" vs 20" barrels? Would a noob like me even notice a difference at 400 yds? Are there drawbacks to going longer?

    Thanks!!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Bowling Green KY
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    I assembled my own rifle with the components I wanted because whole AR10s were unobtainium because of some mass shooting gun buy panic back when I got it. Buying it in pieces because the pieces were still available and I had planned on changing a few components anyway.

    I'm running an Anderson Rifles complete upper without the bolt carrier group because I wanted to use the KAK Industries double ejector "bcg" (bolt carrier group). I have an Anderson Rifles stripped lower with a DPMS lower parts kit ("lpk") in it. The lpk's between AR15s and AR10s are usually almost identical parts except the bolt catch and the receiver pins are longer on the 10s. My buttstock is a standard A2 from Rock River Arms. JP Enterprises adjustable gas block. I plan on ditching the DPMS lower parts kit in favor of a unit match trigger group (meaning it's all in a unit like box and you drop in the whole set and install your pins instead of having a , diconnector, trigger, etc in all individual pieces. DPMS LPKs are junk in my experience. Probably a CMC, Elftmann, or maybe a Timney is what I'm looking to upgrade to. I tossed the cheapo grip and run only Hogue overmolds on almost every firearm I own. $20 upgrade for more comfort. I have large hands. I run a Bravo Company charging handle with an extended catch lever so it will clear my Nikon M308 glass easier when charging.

    If you can get any LPK parts that are machined from billet rather than "MIM" (cast) you'll be in tall cotton with less chance of failure

    Brands I like:

    Anderson.... fantastic value for the money. Very affordable and gets the job done. My first vote for a first .308 AR semi auto. Currently everything they make is sold out.

    Rock River Arms.....a little less affordable like "mid-level" but fantastic quality and I have an RRA coyote AR15 that's a tack driver.

    Armalite.....enough said. Good stuff, higher end.

    LWRC.....very high end with a price to reflect that so unless you want to spend $3500 on an AR10, see above. I only mention them because my old company machined parts for them and they are THE strictest customer as far as quality control. They inspect EVERY SINGLE PART they have made by ANY VENDOR WHATSOEVER before they will even attempt to use it. Parts that don't pass, no matter how close they are to passing, are sent back to the manufacturers. Their tolerances are very tight. We made Browning BMG .50 H2 parts for the Department of Defense and also M4 parts (M16 variants) for Sabre Defense but LWRC was much harder to please than both of those customers.

    I will not make any other suggestions because these four companies are the only ones I have DIRECT experience or ownership with. I can't stand all those "my buddy's cousin's college roommate had a ______ and it blew up in his face" and then they spread that nonsense online everywhere without direct witnessing or pics to prove any of the crap they spew forth. Some folks are just mad they can't get a rep on the phone at 6:15pm PST so they trash the product online for spite. I also don't believe in "you get what you pay for" because that simply isn't true at least half the time in firearms.

    For example, I know for a fact that almost all "forged AR15 lowers" are made by ONE supplier in the US and used by twenty different companies. Billet lowers are usually made by individual manufacturers but forged lower receivers and even LPKs are manufactured by one supplier and then they just put their name on it and put it in their own custom packaging....like brake rotors on a Harley Davidson (made by sunstar)....oddly enough , you'll see twenty different prices from $45 stripped to $200 stripped for the exact same stripped lower with only a different logo on it.

    "Mil Spec" means those parts will interchange with any other Mil Spec product. It does not mean they are tighter spec or better....only interchangeable with each other without issues.

    Barrel length:

    It's user preference really.

    Longer equals more accurate as the bullet has more time being spun and guided before muzzle exit.

    Shorter is easier to manuever with but slightly less accurate. 16" is "carbine length" originally developed for soldiers who are in and out of vehicles alot and who do house to house close-quarters combat where you might get your muzzle tangled up alot in obstacles.

    Shorter is also louder.

    Longer will only give noticeable results from 300 yards or more but unless you have a ton of other accuracy goodies, it's not going to be a huge difference between the two.

    I run an 18".....you can get up to a 24" I believe.

    "MOA" is "minute of angle".....a term thrown about quite often that either means not much or everything depending on how far you're planning to be shooting on a regular basis.

    1 MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards or every 100 yards

    Meaning if you have a 1.5 MOA rifle and you shoot at a target 100yrds away, you should hit somewhere within 1.5 inches of where you aimed (not accounting for user error). At 800yrds, that comes out to be within 12 inches of where you aimed. It would be within 8 inches for a 1 MOA rifle...so within 100yrds, a 1MOA will get a hit within one inch and a 1.5 MOA will hit within an inch and a half. Either will hit a deer in the sweet spot or a zombie in center mass at that range, so it's way less relevant in shorter distances. I can barely see something with the naked eye at 400 yrds without a scope so I don't care so much for "sub MOA" (less than an inch at 100yrds) bells and whistles. The price difference simply doesn't justify the expenditure. Don't be blinded by MOA numbers either.

    ALMOST ALL THE TIME, a miss is user error and not the fault of the equipment. A $2K- $10K rifle is never enough to compensate for crappy hold, bad breathing, posture, range estimation, or bad habits. I've been to several rifle classes and this has always been the case.

    Purchase accordingly and realize if your skillset does surpass your rifle at some point in the future, you can upgrade any of the parts to your liking.

    Massad Ayoob won a pistol match with a $400 Ruger P90 when his $4K Wilson combat (or Les Baer?) custom 1911 took a dump one time.

    Look for an Appleseed Event in your area and attend. I can't emphasize enough how much it helped me and I thought I was a seasoned vet with a rifle. Appleseed is for all experience levels from newb to pro.

    https://appleseedinfo.org/

    My typing finger is tired and I'm post-whoring again. Hope this helps.

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    Last edited by ironchop; 05-09-2018 at 09:00 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Bowling Green KY
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    Two other considerations:

    1)Buy ten mags for it as soon as you get it. Some 20rd and at least two 10rd is my suggestion. See number 2

    2) we have an election coming up and gun ppl always get antsy right before National elections and right after and then they buy everything they can and sometimes prices go thru the roof. Mostly it's just availability problems more than pricing issues. ARs are THE VILLIAN right now as far as firearms go and you got one side out to rid the US of all of them and the other side is trying to buy all of them that they can before the first side gets their way. This makes your timing critical.

    Rock on Kee-dog


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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
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    englishtown NJ
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    I was between getting a m1a or a mauser. I own 3 - .22, bolt-action being my favorite and most accurate, the others are m&p 15-22's, the performance center is a nice gun and accurate. My other is m&p 15t, love that gun too. I decided on getting a 1941 mauser, I believe the k98 version, it was made in finland for the german army. Its all original, bolt, barrel, matching numbers on it. The most I shoot right now is 150 yards, I plan on trying 300+ yards when I get comfortable with the mauser, yes, its the 8mm version, they are available in 30-6 too. If I couldn't get that, I was gonna get a m1a or mauser new if all failed.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironchop View Post
    Anderson.... fantastic value for the money. Very affordable and gets the job done. My first vote for a first .308 AR semi auto. Currently everything they make is sold out.
    Apparently, Armalite is all sold out too according to their website. I have a friend who is very high on JP Enterprises. I went to their website, but even their entry level stuff is $3000-$4000. That's 3rd Gen R territory, just can't justify it.

    I haven't gone to Anderson or RR sites yet, but I will today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironchop View Post
    Massad Ayoob won a pistol match with a $400 Ruger P90
    I have read lots of his stuff over the years. Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that his name spelled backwards is "Booya Dassam!"

    Quote Originally Posted by ironchop View Post
    My typing finger is tired and I'm post-whoring again. Hope this helps.
    Not post whoring at all. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for when I started this thread. I've learned so much this week, and I realized I am not even scratching the surface.

    What I have done is verified what I thought when I started this thread -- I have no idea what I want.

    Ruger makes a SR-762. It costs a hair over 2K. I am going to read up on that next.

    Thanks again everyone for all the input!

  11. #11
    Scootertrash's Avatar
    Scootertrash is offline Just Too Addicted: Protecting Our Community 4 Wheels? Huh?
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    Re: The M1 Garand (didn't it in your post originally)

    I will admit to being partial to Military Surplus firearms because......well, history

    I will tell you this tho:

    I have never handed my Garand to someone who didn't hand it back to me after emptying a clip (ping!), yes proper terminology is "clip", with a huge smile on their face, including any wimmenz who have fired it.

    As far as buying one:

    Your first option is thru the CMP, or Civilian Marksmanship Program

    http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

    I would say the Service Grade is the best option. 750.00 and 2-4 weeks shipping. IIRC they ship it right to your house, no FFL transfer needed. I would verify this with the CMP. Finding a dealer to transfer is usually no problem. If you are close to either their North store ( 2500 Davey, Port Clinton, OH 43452), or South store (1470 Sentinel Dr, Anniston, AL 36207) you can pick one out in person if they have them in the store.

    There are some requirements to be able to order:

    http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sa...-requirements/

    As far as membership in a CMP affiliated organization, I simply joined The Garand Collectors club for 25.00

    IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT ORDERING, I WOULDN'T WAIT TOO LONG. THIS LAST BATCH HAS BEEN ON SALE FOR AWHILE. THEY WILL EVENTUALLY RUN OUT.

    Now you've got me thinking about buying another before these run out. I need to go do my conceal carry class next week and get on the list.....

    I will try to post some pics of mine later
    Who is Q?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabiodriven View Post
    Trick the people into thinking they're enacting their own will and you have willing slaves.

    Liberalism suspends the intellect of its victims, while at the same time tricking them into believing that they're smarter than everyone else.


    If we've done business together, please leave me feedback. Thank You!:

    http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...t=Scootertrash

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scootertrash View Post
    Re: The M1 Garand
    Stop the presses!! This changes everything.

  13. #13
    Scootertrash's Avatar
    Scootertrash is offline Just Too Addicted: Protecting Our Community 4 Wheels? Huh?
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    You could also go to the CMP Forums and buy one from a member there. You might pay a little more, but you would get a good description of the condition and some pics as opposed to the luck of the draw ordering sight unseen directly from the CMP.
    Who is Q?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabiodriven View Post
    Trick the people into thinking they're enacting their own will and you have willing slaves.

    Liberalism suspends the intellect of its victims, while at the same time tricking them into believing that they're smarter than everyone else.


    If we've done business together, please leave me feedback. Thank You!:

    http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...t=Scootertrash

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scootertrash View Post
    ....
    I will try to post some pics of mine later w00t:
    Patiently waiting...



    Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Scootertrash's Avatar
    Scootertrash is offline Just Too Addicted: Protecting Our Community 4 Wheels? Huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironchop View Post
    Patiently waiting...
    https://youtu.be/E3iVVCttwPw
    Who is Q?

    Quote Originally Posted by fabiodriven View Post
    Trick the people into thinking they're enacting their own will and you have willing slaves.

    Liberalism suspends the intellect of its victims, while at the same time tricking them into believing that they're smarter than everyone else.


    If we've done business together, please leave me feedback. Thank You!:

    http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...t=Scootertrash

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