New Headlight Ideas needed

[Illcochy22]

Ok. So I have a 81 185s that is in need of a new headlight. The one on it has had the plastic housing bucket thing completely shatter. It cracked into a shitload of pieces. So can anyone suggest a good replacement for my trike? Id like to upgrade to a LED bar of some sort but have no clue how Id do that. But a simple replacement light would work as well. Whichever is cheapest/best will be my thoughts. Thank you for any help or advice.

[Gabriel]

Did yours come with the optional DC power kit? [Does it have a battery]
If not, it gets a little more complicated because you'll need a rectifier & regulator wired in.

If he feels up to it, ps2fixer can explain that. He REALLY knows that stuff.

[ps2fixer]

@Gabriel

I wasn't aware of any DC power kits, was this a Honda line product or something? Just wondering so I could research and maybe reproduce it, assuming it's out of production.

Anyway, on topic the 1981 ATC185S (and 81 ATC200) wire diagram is linked below. There's no regulator and the power generation is AC, so as Gabriel said, at a minium you'd need a regulator/rectifier. To keep things simple, the generator makes more voltage as the RPM goes up (in stock form the lights get brighter). That's where the regulator comes in, it caps the max voltage by putting an extra load on the system. The rectifier is in basic terms a AC to DC converter. A simple diode can be a rectifier, however to get true DC power it's a lot more complex than that. Having said that, most LEDs expect DC power input such as from a car or battery, however they can function on AC just fine. The circuit that controls the power usage of the LEDs is the determining factor, so when you find a LED headlight you like, let us know so we can look at the specs and see what it needs.

Just assuming worse case and the LED light must have true DC power to not get damaged, you'll need to add a battery to your machine. I'm sure you'd want the engine to charge the battery instead of manually charging after each ride, so a 2 wire generic 12v regulator is needed. I've heard people have had alright luck with the China made ones. If there's actual spec's posted, the regulator should max at 13.5-14.5v. For the rectifier, the easiest option I can think of is a diode. Personally I've wired harnesses up using a Honda supplied diode which is expensive for what it is, but it's well sealed and is replaceable. From memory it's around $20. Just to get technical a little, the power output from the diode is the top half of the AC power wave, so it's not true DC, but it's in a form that is good enough to charge a battery. The battery is what makes up for the dips in power and makes it a stable voltage.

I know LED's are a hot thing to do, but also remember the power generation on the machine is limited. For example, based on the wire diagram, the alternator's max usage is about 50w, 45w for headlight and 5w for tail light (since it has no regulator). The service manual lines up with that spec too, 12v 50W @ 5,000 rpm. In other words, you can run up to around a 45w LED light on it and never have to worry about charging the battery. If you put say a 60w (15w more), the battery will slowly drain as you ride with lights on, but charge while lights are off. For length of time, it's based on what capacity the battery has, but it's a 15w draw (about 1.2amp @ 12.6v aka fully charged battery). 7ah battery should last around 5.8 hours.

To point out one thing, if the LED light supports AC power input and 12-14.5v is within it's range, you can get away with no battery and no rectifier. If you match the LED's true power draw to the stock headlight, it's possible to bypass the need for the regulator too, but it's always best to have one to protect it. Just wanted to point that out, I haven't searched for an AC based LED light, so no clue if there's one out there that would work well or not.

Hopefully I didn't get too technical on you, it's not meant to discourage you or anything. It's very much possible, but it's best to do it right the first time, instead of plugging in a LED light and hoping it lasts (raw LEDs can die a slow death from incorrect power input which is why most have a current driver to protect them).

I've been thinking about making some sort of LED wire up kit for machines just like the 185S, I just have to figure out how exactly I'm going to go about it.

Anyway, here's the basics of the wiring.

Green wire of regulator (ground) goes to frame/engine ground, or the green wire anywhere on the harness. The other wire (whatever flavor the manufacture used) ties into the power supply wire in the harness. This is the yellow wire the comes out of the engine's alternator and ends up at the handle bar switches. That's it for the regulator, it only kicks in when the voltage gets too high, and eats up the extra generated power by making heat which is why most have fins on them. With lights off, it will make somewhere around 50w max of heat (think 50w normal light bulb). It can get hot so make sure it's mounted to metal, no plastic etc. I've seen people use zip ties to mount them, not so sure if that's a good idea personally.

Rectifier and battery isn't really any more complicated. If you go with the Honda diode I mentioned before, the biggest thing to get right is the direction the arrow points on it. I'd have to look at my notes to double check it, but basically one side goes to the power wire of the harness (yellow again, easiest to tap into the same spot as the regulator), and the other wire goes to the positive of the battery. Negative terminal on the battery should be connected to frame ground, or if you want the green wire in the harness. Personally I'd say to tap into the wires on the harness side, but right by the engine connector, shortest wire run is the safest and you get the most out of the power.

At this point, any light you want to run on true DC power like LEDs, you'd run the positive/power wire to the positive battery terminal, and negative can run to frame/engine ground or green wire in the harness. The yellow (and in turn the blue, white, and brown wires for the lights) are still the AC, but regulated power. That means you have to run a new wire for the LED hedlight, you can't re-use the existing wire unless you change what the yellow wire sources it's power from (battery instead of engine, remember regulator/rectifier still have to be hooked to the engine side to charge).

Just encase you were wondering, the Goki starter kit used this same logic for their starter kits and wiring. It was just a diode soldered on the wire to charge the starting battery, but that's based on a 350x with has a stock 2 wire regulator, but no battery and it also generates AC power.

Having said all of that, of course you always have the option to go with the standard style headlights, just have to find one you can make fit your machine, or a used one, besides mounting, electrically you just have to make sure it's a 45w/45w bulb (bright/dim spec).

I'll be honest, I've ran a LED headlight on a 250es with no battery with no issues for more than a year. It does have a regulator/rectifier (it generates 3 phase AC power, so more complicated but efficient power generation), and the lights etc all run off the battery side of the rectifier. At low rpm the LED flickers as the voltage drops too low for it to work, but while driving it's just fine. I suspect it would be worse in your case since the 250es generates much more max power, but I could be wrong, never tested side by side voltage/amps at idle. This all depends on the LED of choice though. The one I used was intended for a car/truck and was 45w/45w dim-able. Mounting them is a real pain sadly, they fit the 200e/es headlight housings just fine though since it mounts the same as their stock headlights. I picked it because it's likely to be more rugged instead of a throw away fog light plus the added benefit of bight/dim.

Hopefully this answered your question. Most likely I created more questions for your than answers, if there's anything else, ask away and I'll try to do my best to describe things.

[ATCKevin]

ps2fixer, I am jealous of your knowledge! I just learned so much. I'm bookmarking this thread in case I want to ever consider an LED conversion on one of my trikes.

[Gabriel]

Yes, I believe it was a factory option or something.

Here's a 185s wiring diagram. It shows the OPTIONAL DC power kit up top.






Handy this this diagram. Even if you DON'T have that option, you have the basis for making one.

[jb2wheels]

I'd try something like this light:
https://www.amazon.com/Nilight-3000L.../dp/B01GC60QSG

Or this light:
https://www.amazon.com/FSYF-Driving-...lights+27+watt

With this regulator:
https://www.amazon.com/31400-KA2-641...e+regulator+ac

And just run it off the stock AC system. I did this with TRX70.

Might add this if you have issues:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

My 350X would run a pair of 18W LED pods along with the stock headlights no problem. But the 72W light bar I had did not like the raw AC so somebody recommended this converter. It's been on a couple of hi speed night rides with me through the dunes and trails with no issues.

I think it would be better to convert the system to DC with a small battery, but I have not tried it yet. Maybe on my 84 T3 project or the 350X if it gives me any more issues.

You can probably get away with one of these 50W lights:
https://www.amazon.com/Nilight-43235.../dp/B01N8OVJRC

You can for sure run one of these 36W lights:
https://www.amazon.com/Nilight-6-5In.../dp/B00IZ9VAOI

Go by Autozone or whatever and grab and LED running light for a trailer to use as a tail light.

[ps2fixer]

FYI on the LED lights linked, I noticed all were flood, generally with the headlight application you'd want spot so you can see further down the trail (it still floods pretty well), it just throws more light down the trail instead of all over.

Sadly both those LED lights don't give voltage input specs, first one just mentions a 12v regulator required on atvs.

Just a random LED light I could find, it actually gives specs, 9-32v DC. Can't really say what 32w + taillight voltage would be at idle, but fair chance it will be around 9v or more. If you have a multi meter, you could measure the voltage at the headlight fairly easy to see what it's like at 50w of draw. Less draw = more voltage.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Led-Li...2:pf:0&vxp=mtr

Also that DC converter is interesting, down side is, the input is 16v AC min, most ATV's spec their alternator to 13.5-14.5v, and a regulator shouldn't allow it to ever hit over 15v. Almost a perfect fit, just the specs don't quite line up for the application. Maybe it's a misprint though and it's 6v min or something?

Oh also that wire diagram gabriel posted is from the 3ww tech section. I tried to use some of those diagrams for pinouts, but noticed some of the wire colors being wrong and such. Not sure what the source is for them, the symbols are slightly different than the actual Honda wire diagrams like the one I posted. Right from the tech manual, the 80 atc185 is wired slightly different from a 81 185s/200, which is also different from a 82 185s/200, so lumping them all into a single diagram seems like it is more generic info rather than machine accurate.

Anyway, on the DC kit, seems to mach up almost perfect with my description in photo form. It's not super clear in the diagram, but basically it plugs inline between the engine alternator plug and the main harness (Called a T harness). That's exactly what I was thinking for making a kit. Maybe I should just make the basic adapter since that's probably the hardest part about it and let the end user wire in whatever regulator they want. Only problem I have is knowing how long to make the wires for the nearest mounting spot and such. I have another order from my China supplier I'm thinking about making, have a few parts I want to sample, probably will grab some electrical parts and test them out on my 350x (200w max out alternator). Should stress test the regulator pretty well =). Seems like that's the highest output of the 3 wheelers (250sx/es match it). I'll just have to figure out how I'll put a load on it. Probably a couple 60w headlights would be good sized load.

I tried to search around a bit for that DC power kit, and I can only find people asking similar questions to this post, no mention of any details about the actual kit, if it ever existed. Maybe someone was bored and added that to the wire diagram just to show how to make a DC kit, or was an unpopular aftermarket item.

Anyway, @ the OP, if you want me to whip up an adapter harness/kit, let me know. I just need a measurement from the engine alternator plug to the nearest bolt you could mount a regulator on (might need a a longer bolt though). Could always zip tie, but like I said before, not a huge fan of that, but I have some pretty good quality ones on hand I could include if needed. The setup I have in mind would output the DC power on the yellow wire on the harness side, so the headlight and taillight wiring would automatically be converted to DC power instead of AC. I'd also add an output for charging a small battery. I'd just have to include a pig tail to plug into the OEM headlight plug so it can be wired up to an LED light. With battery would be best, but if burning out an LED isn't a big deal, trying and hoping without a battery isn't going to hurt anything but the light its self. I can mod the wire diagram I posted before on how I'd wire it just encase you have any wiring issues down the road, you'll be able to follow along what exactly is what with the modified layout. Of course you'd be kind of a guinea pig testing it out for me since it would be the first kit I've assembled, but it's not rocket science so I should be safe =). If all goes well, I'd be fine with making the kit available in the 3ww shop.

[jb2wheels]

FYI on the LED lights linked, I noticed all were flood, generally with the headlight application you'd want spot so you can see further down the trail (it still floods pretty well), it just throws more light down the trail instead of all over.

I totally missed that and you're absolutely right - I tried 1 spot and 1 flood before and the floods are worthless to me.

[oldskool83]

LED bar. I put a small one on my KFX700 at the handle bars and wired it to my stock on off switch. its small 2inchs tall by 7inchs wide...lights up underground tunnels we cross thru very well...better then stock dual head lights.

[Illcochy22]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkP7C7CAT80
This dude on youtube just strapped a LED light of random origin onto his existing harness with no forseen issues. What did he do?

FYI on the LED lights linked, I noticed all were flood, generally with the headlight application you'd want spot so you can see further down the trail (it still floods pretty well), it just throws more light down the trail instead of all over.

Sadly both those LED lights don't give voltage input specs, first one just mentions a 12v regulator required on atvs.

Just a random LED light I could find, it actually gives specs, 9-32v DC. Can't really say what 32w + taillight voltage would be at idle, but fair chance it will be around 9v or more. If you have a multi meter, you could measure the voltage at the headlight fairly easy to see what it's like at 50w of draw. Less draw = more voltage.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Led-Li...2:pf:0&vxp=mtr

Also that DC converter is interesting, down side is, the input is 16v AC min, most ATV's spec their alternator to 13.5-14.5v, and a regulator shouldn't allow it to ever hit over 15v. Almost a perfect fit, just the specs don't quite line up for the application. Maybe it's a misprint though and it's 6v min or something?

Oh also that wire diagram gabriel posted is from the 3ww tech section. I tried to use some of those diagrams for pinouts, but noticed some of the wire colors being wrong and such. Not sure what the source is for them, the symbols are slightly different than the actual Honda wire diagrams like the one I posted. Right from the tech manual, the 80 atc185 is wired slightly different from a 81 185s/200, which is also different from a 82 185s/200, so lumping them all into a single diagram seems like it is more generic info rather than machine accurate.

Anyway, on the DC kit, seems to mach up almost perfect with my description in photo form. It's not super clear in the diagram, but basically it plugs inline between the engine alternator plug and the main harness (Called a T harness). That's exactly what I was thinking for making a kit. Maybe I should just make the basic adapter since that's probably the hardest part about it and let the end user wire in whatever regulator they want. Only problem I have is knowing how long to make the wires for the nearest mounting spot and such. I have another order from my China supplier I'm thinking about making, have a few parts I want to sample, probably will grab some electrical parts and test them out on my 350x (200w max out alternator). Should stress test the regulator pretty well =). Seems like that's the highest output of the 3 wheelers (250sx/es match it). I'll just have to figure out how I'll put a load on it. Probably a couple 60w headlights would be good sized load.

I tried to search around a bit for that DC power kit, and I can only find people asking similar questions to this post, no mention of any details about the actual kit, if it ever existed. Maybe someone was bored and added that to the wire diagram just to show how to make a DC kit, or was an unpopular aftermarket item.

Anyway, @ the OP, if you want me to whip up an adapter harness/kit, let me know. I just need a measurement from the engine alternator plug to the nearest bolt you could mount a regulator on (might need a a longer bolt though). Could always zip tie, but like I said before, not a huge fan of that, but I have some pretty good quality ones on hand I could include if needed. The setup I have in mind would output the DC power on the yellow wire on the harness side, so the headlight and taillight wiring would automatically be converted to DC power instead of AC. I'd also add an output for charging a small battery. I'd just have to include a pig tail to plug into the OEM headlight plug so it can be wired up to an LED light. With battery would be best, but if burning out an LED isn't a big deal, trying and hoping without a battery isn't going to hurt anything but the light its self. I can mod the wire diagram I posted before on how I'd wire it just encase you have any wiring issues down the road, you'll be able to follow along what exactly is what with the modified layout. Of course you'd be kind of a guinea pig testing it out for me since it would be the first kit I've assembled, but it's not rocket science so I should be safe =). If all goes well, I'd be fine with making the kit available in the 3ww shop.

[Gabriel]

What did he do?

Got lucky.
Random electrical experimentation is rarely a good idea.
You can write all I know about wiring and electronics on a BB with a wide tip marker but I do know that much.

[Arky-X]

Or just strap a battery on it, wire a 12V LED light bar on a switch and BAM!!! LET THERE BE LIGHT!!!
You just have to buy a battery with enough Ah to get you through a night ride and keep it on a charger.

That's the lazy man's solution.

[Gabriel]

Thats not a bad solution actually. As efficient as LEDs are and a good Li Ion battery its surprising how bright and how long lasting they are.

[ps2fixer]

Got lucky.
Random electrical experimentation is rarely a good idea.
You can write all I know about wiring and electronics on a BB with a wide tip marker but I do know that much.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in my big book of text, but it really comes down to specs and design. If the LED is designed to accept AC voltage, and the draw matches OEM lights, it can work by plugging it into a machine and ride it. Machines with no regulator is a balancing act, if the power from the alternator isn't being used, it will generate higher and higher voltage as it revs. Take a 350x, unplug the regulator, and start it, at idle the lights won't blow (atleast mine didn't), just touch the throttle at all, and they all blowout nearly instantly. I was messing around with a Goki + 350x harness I built for a customer, and forgot to plug in my regulator when testing it. Good thing I had spare bulbs on hand.

Basically, if you want to be 100% sure the light will work and not fail unknowingly, the best solution is the 12v battery + regulator/rectifier, that's exactly why all of the machines with electric start (an actual need for DC power) always run that setup. I prefer something reliable when it's my eyes in the dark over being cheap and just hoping it works, but I ride fast and hard on my machines, I'd get hurt badly if my headlights went out while flying though the woods.

Having said that, I have a 250es with no battery that has ran an LED headlight with no problems (actual headlight for off road trucks) and have had no issues with it yet, but it has a stock regulator/rectifier, just no battery to smooth out the power (like a capacitor in a power supply). I don't do stupid stuff on my 250es nearly as much as my 350x though, lower risk a little but I should get a battery in it. Also just to mention it, I was stupid with that led headlight and hooked it up to a battery charger thinking it would be 12v, well it was on activate and was something like 15-16v or so and burned out the brights driver inside. The light only had dims. That's what happens when things are powered with too much voltage and it goes out of their spec.

If you want to chance something like that, make sure to rev the engine right to red line while in neutral with the lights on, and hold it for a little (say 5-10 seconds) just to be sure the lights aren't going to blow. If they past that test, they probably are fairly safe to run. Btw, make sure the engine is warm before doing that, and careful not to blow up the engine, they don't like red line for long. A more accurate way is to take a voltage reading while doing it (AC of course) and see if it's going over 14.5v (the designed max voltage on the machine).

Probably should mention some LED lights have a HUGE range they can accept for voltage input, I've seen some that were like 9-50v while others are 9-15v. The ones with no specs I'd steer clear of, or ask for the specs.

I'll be completely honest, I'm nothing special with electrical, I'm still learning a lot. I have the basics covered quite well I think though.


@Arky-X

Yep, tossing a battery in and manually charging it is a pretty easy solution except for finding a way to mount the battery. However after every ride you have to charge the battery which isn't so lazy to me lol. I'd rather add a couple of components and make the machine do the charging for me =). Once I build the DC kit, you could add that to the lazy man's solution and be truely lazy about it (no reoccurring work lol).

Also for completeness of info. W/V = A, so in other words, say your LED headlight is 45w, to find the amp draw you do 45w/12.6v = ~3.6 amp. With that info you can get somewhat of an idea how long a fully charged battery can last, like a 7AH (amp hour) battery should last almost 2 hours with the 3.6amp draw (or 45w). Note, a fully charged battery that has been left to settled out will have a voltage right around 12.6v (2.1v per cell).

I can throw a monkey wrench into everything and also mention 4x Lithium Ion batteries, such as the 18650 cells are 3.6v per cell, or 4x = 14.4v. They have much greater stored power vs weight and space compared to Lead acid batteries, but you have to charge them carefully with a proper charger (balanced charger is best, each cell being monitored), and also the battery specs for discharge. If you're going to be charging batteries all the time, I think I'd go with the LI/ion ones. They are measured in mah which is 1000ths of an amp, take their number and /1000 to get their AH rating. You can parallel the batteries (two sets of 4 wired in parallel) would double the AH rating of the whole pack. These are the batteries often used in laptops, drills, electric bikes, and even some electric cars.

[Arky-X]

Got lucky.
Random electrical experimentation is rarely a good idea.

Yep....when dealing with electrical/electronics.....experimenting can lead to sparks....sparks lead to smoke and you can't get the smoke back in it.....and it won't work if it is out of smoke.