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Thread: CDI ignition system upgrades, thoughts?

  1. #1
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    CDI ignition system upgrades, thoughts?

    So I've been thinking about this for a while and noticed that after all of the normal power upgrades like a bigger bore, stroker setup, carb, exhaust, cam etc... that one of the only parts I never see upgraded is the ignition system. Maybe a coil but never the cdi

    My thoughts are more along the lines of ignition base timing and total advance. I know that there is some adjustment but I don't know if there is enough to make a difference. I know that regardless of the amount of advance you adjust into the pickup that the total amount of timing stays the same. Would there be any benefit to more total timing on a small engine like say a 350x? Or as small as 110? Lets say stock is 10° base timing with 25° total. Would 10° base and 30° total (example) make a large enough gain to make a difference? Or a custom timing curve? I know in the pursuit of power that people want every last ounce they can get. Has anyone experimented with stuff like this?

    Basically I want to build a custom engine combination that I'm pretty sure the stock curve wouldn't be adequate for. But I'm not sure if using a cdi from another atv/atc would help either. I'm thinking of going from 125cc to about 190cc. So would a 185 cdi work? 200x? Xr200? I want all of my ducks in a row before I just start throwing parts at it. I'd hate to throw $350 at a programmable cdi but if there might be a noticeable difference or benefit I'd consider it. It also has a launch setting and can be switched between 2 different ignition curves if desired.

    The Chinese racing CDI's are junk from what I've experienced. I mean they work but they really don't work as advertised. The reviews I've seen were they actually tested the base and overall timing say the racing cdi's are locked at 25° or so timing regardless of rpm and whereas a stock scooter cdi has 10° base with 25° total. And with that they seen no evidence of extra power or performance.

    Sorry for the long winded post. It's just interesting stuff to me lol.

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  2. #2
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    Ooh that MSD would be awesome.
    That would HAVE to be mount conspicuously just because
    I was born and raised on Venus & I may be here a while.....

  3. #3
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    Here is some good quick information on ignition timing on a larger engine.

    Everyone gather around. It's time for today's mind blowing technical tip.

    When we talk about ignition timing, such as 34 degrees before top dead center or BTDC, it means that your igniting the combustion charge 34 crank degrees before the piston reaches TDC.
    Center being when the piston is at the dead top. Not before or it will push the piston back down the hole killing HP and killing the bottom end.
    Well why are some engines 32 BTDC, and some 38 BTDC?
    Because of the efficiency and burn rate of the combination chamber. Some combination chambers burn the charge sooner so it needs less led time to ignite the charge.
    So your starting the charge 34 degrees before the piston is at the top so the time it reaches the top you are getting the maximum charge.
    Well let's look at the piston speed. If the piston is moving at twice the speed at 6,000 rpm vs 3,000, why does it need the same timing? It dosen't!
    The faster the piston speed the sooner you have to ignite the charge because the piston is going to reach top dead center sooner due to the speed travel of the piston. This is the purpose of the mechanical curve in a givin distributor. So ask yourself, is locking your distributor the correct way. I will say that we have found between 18-28 HP and ft pounds of torque through the entire curve on the dyno everytime.

    Facebook link for credit

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...21247104660875

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    1979 ATC110
    1983 ATC110
    1984 ATC110
    1984 ATC125M
    1985 ATC110 2 of them
    1985 ATC110 The wife's
    1987 ATC125M
    1985 ATC250ES
    1984 DX225 with 250 timberwolf engine and swingarm. Wolf in DX clothing

  4. #4
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    I'm taking it that no one else has ever thought about timing curves on a small engine when doing custom small engine build? Lol.

    I know that there are a few places that make quality aftermarket cdi's for 350x's and 250r's but they are just generic curves that are a "one size fits all fix".

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    1979 ATC110
    1983 ATC110
    1984 ATC110
    1984 ATC125M
    1985 ATC110 2 of them
    1985 ATC110 The wife's
    1987 ATC125M
    1985 ATC250ES
    1984 DX225 with 250 timberwolf engine and swingarm. Wolf in DX clothing

  5. #5
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    There is a guy in the Tecate group (Rubbersalt) that reverse engineered the Tecate CDI. He made the internal components more stout but I'm not sure he's got it 100% yet. I think CDIs are beyond the know-how of most people on this site--you have to have some background in electrical engineering. I've rewound ignition coils with success and got more spark energy out of them, but I wouldn't know how to design a CDI. If you go to HPI they sell ignitions for a lot of older machines and some of them have programmable curves. Here's the link. They are out of Italy but the Tecates guys have been using them with success.

    https://www.hpi.be/

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by christph View Post
    There is a guy in the Tecate group (Rubbersalt) that reverse engineered the Tecate CDI. He made the internal components more stout but I'm not sure he's got it 100% yet. I think CDIs are beyond the know-how of most people on this site--you have to have some background in electrical engineering. I've rewound ignition coils with success and got more spark energy out of them, but I wouldn't know how to design a CDI. If you go to HPI they sell ignitions for a lot of older machines and some of them have programmable curves. Here's the link. They are out of Italy but the Tecates guys have been using them with success.

    https://www.hpi.be/
    I had seen where he was building those. I'll research their site a bit and see what I can find out. I'm not at the point of even having a running engine but I'd like to figured it out before that point comes so I'll be ready to make a decision. I appreciate the link. Thank you

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    1979 ATC110
    1983 ATC110
    1984 ATC110
    1984 ATC125M
    1985 ATC110 2 of them
    1985 ATC110 The wife's
    1987 ATC125M
    1985 ATC250ES
    1984 DX225 with 250 timberwolf engine and swingarm. Wolf in DX clothing

  7. #7
    Arky-X is offline Just Too Addicted Arm chair racerJust too addicted
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    Interesting.......

    I wouldn't know where to begin with one of these but I wouldn't know why there wouldn't be some improvement.

    I have a tune in my Chevy 5.3 and I can tell a difference. It was not put on a dyno but I logged 3 different runs and emailed my tuner and he dialed it in. I don't have anything more than intake, exhaust, and transmission servo (and run on 91+ octane) and it makes a difference. One day I decided to put the stock tune in it and OMG......what a turd! Back to the custom tune.

    Biggest advantage I would see is being able to move off a generic curve. Every engine is different and as far as I know, stock CDIs back in the day were not self-learning.

  8. #8
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    The more I think about it the more I want to buy it just to mess it one. The launch control feature would be nice for sitting on the line waiting for the flag to drop. You could hold the button while holding the throttle at the full throttle (or enough to be over your cutoff rpm) instead of feathering the throttle. I guess consistency would be easier in that regard. It wouldn't be as important for the type of riding I'd do but with the ability to change between 2 programmed ignition curves you could have one set for max power and another that pulls power out of you were having traction issues. I like to see one used back to back against a stock CDI, a hot shot or similar CDi and one of these MSD boxes with a tuned curve.
    1979 ATC110
    1983 ATC110
    1984 ATC110
    1984 ATC125M
    1985 ATC110 2 of them
    1985 ATC110 The wife's
    1987 ATC125M
    1985 ATC250ES
    1984 DX225 with 250 timberwolf engine and swingarm. Wolf in DX clothing

  9. #9
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    The CDI's on these 3 wheelers are defo no self learning, there's no O2 Sensors or anything to give it any feedback, it just knows RPM and Timing, it doesn't even know if the engine is warm or cold.

    I made a post with a bunch of stock CDI specs from service manuals. Newer machines have more advancement, aka poorer combustion chamber design? The post above describing timing is worded well to understand why more advancement is needed, but doesn't make sense to me why a newer machine needs more ignition timing both at the base and max.

    Just to give some generic numbers, nearly all of the 4 stroke 3 wheeler engines have a base timing of 10 degrees BTDC. The full advance spec ranges 28-32 degrees. If you jump to a 93-2000 TRX300EX, it's base timing is 17 degrees and full advanced is 33 degrees. Newer machines quit posting full advancement specs from the few I looked up.

    I don't have any way to read the curve or measure the advancements, but I'd be interested in seeing just how different the CDIs are for the Honda 3 wheelers. Seems most are more or less the same for the basic specs.

    Also, the size of the engine doesn't make a massive difference, even 51cc chainsaws benefit from more timing advancement when being ported. The way chainsaw builders do it is remove the key out of the flywheel and manually adjust the timing base on the flywheel vs crank. I suspect 3 wheeler engines could be done the same way.

    A programmable CDI would be neat to play with, but not really practicable for general riding, racing of course it makes sense. If I had one, I'd personally set the second settings to a "cold" setting and the main setting tuned for when it's warm/hot. Might be somewhat simple to add a temp switch in to switch between them depending how the programmable CDI functions.

    The CDI circuit isn't overly complicated from the little I remember looking up about them, There's a couple parts you swap out to change the curve and advancement, so if you have a programming setting in mind, you could in theory build a test CDI by hand, then once you dial in the settings, have it made professionally and sold as a true performance CDI for x mods on x engine. I suspect the market is a bit too small to support that kind of dev work though.





    Here's the CDI thread I mentioned with the service manual timing specs.

    http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...nector-Pinouts

  10. #10
    Arky-X is offline Just Too Addicted Arm chair racerJust too addicted
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    Forgot about all the sensors that would be needed to maximize the results.....but it would be cool as H E double hockey sticks to play with.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arky-X View Post
    Forgot about all the sensors that would be needed to maximize the results.....but it would be cool as H E double hockey sticks to play with.
    It's possible and could be adapted from a newer quad likely. Basically what you're talking about is EFI, or fuel injection. Like for car talk, the Toyota pickup from 1985-1988 had a carb option, however it still had an O2 sensor, temp sensor etc, but wasn't self learning because it had no way to adjust the carb electronically. The trucks that came with EFI of course were self learning and the ECU was much more complex since it did so much more.

    EFI is kind of a double edged sword, it's awesome in the face with a programmable ECU you have a lot of control with timing, air fuel ratio etc, but there's so much more that can go wrong with sensors etc that could render the machine dead on the side of the trail.

    If I was wanting to go EFI, I'd target a 650/580 rincon or similar machine to snatch it's EFI system from. Mod the intake to fit say a 350x, figure out how to mount the engine temp sensor so it's somewhat accurate (water cooled vs air), and trick it into not caring about the transmission shift solenoids not being connected (like taking an automatic car ECU and putting it into a manual, I've done that once, but the truck ran/functioned fine so I didn't care about the check engine light, no inspection in this state).

    Anyway, I'd say the EFI system would benefit over the Carb builds since it can adjust timing etc based on temp, so it can have prime tuning at full operating temps with no concern with how hard it is to start etc. In theory it should be more responsive too, big time since there's no accelerator pump on our carbs.

    Basic requirements off the top of my head for an EFI system is listed below, might miss something but gives an idea what sensors would be needed.

    ECU/Brain of the operation of course
    Air intake metering (so it knows how much gas to give the air charge)
    Fuel injector(s)
    O2 sensor (to make sure the tuning is burning correctly and at the right air fuel ratio)
    engine temp sensor (cold vs hot needs are different, aka so "choke" can work in the EFI system)
    crank/cam sensor (so the ECU knows when to spark etc, basically the same setup as what a CDI does, pulse generators might even work already for this need)
    Coil might have to be changed, depending how the ECU fires it, it's more of a computer, so it doesn't have raw power running though them normally, like our CDI's do.
    Throttle positioning sensor - this tells how much gas you're giving it, so if you go from a low rpm and floor it, it can give extra fuel charge to make up for the sudden vacuum loss. It also can cut injection when going from high rpm to idle to save fuel, most modern cars do this when engine braking in gear.

    I think that's about everything, of course you have to power the ECU off 12v, so you would probably have to add a DC power kit and battery if the machine doesn't have a battery factory. This also means likely a dead battery = no start. If I recall correctly the Rincon does have a pull starter though, nearly impossible to start off it though I bet. I know the 450 foreman (carb for the one I have experience with) is a heck of a pull to get going.

    Probably should mention, the EFI systems don't really care how big or small an engine is, but going smaller than design makes it harder to meter the fuel as accurately for the over sized injector(s), same goes in reverse, going bigger than designed hits the limit of the injector not keeping up at high rpm/max fuel charge situations. The biggest thing to have accurate is how much air is flowing into the intake and it will adjust accordingly. Matching engine cc size would help keep it more accurate though. Changing the injector(s) might throw off the ECU map, but matching the engine size might make it more correct than having the oversized injector(s).

    Oh another spot to look for EFI systems could be modern motorcycles. First one that came to mind that probably wouldn't be a first pick is the 600rr bike, it has dual sets of injectors and multi cylinder so kind of a different beast from what our 3 wheeler engines are deigned after. Would make a wicked fast 3 wheeler with that engine in it for in a straight line race with the 110hp or so and if I remember right 15k rpm red line.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    It's possible and could be adapted from a newer quad likely. Basically what you're talking about is EFI, or fuel injection. Like for car talk, the Toyota pickup from 1985-1988 had a carb option, however it still had an O2 sensor, temp sensor etc, but wasn't self learning because it had no way to adjust the carb electronically. The trucks that came with EFI of course were self learning and the ECU was much more complex since it did so much more.

    EFI is kind of a double edged sword, it's awesome in the face with a programmable ECU you have a lot of control with timing, air fuel ratio etc, but there's so much more that can go wrong with sensors etc that could render the machine dead on the side of the trail.

    If I was wanting to go EFI, I'd target a 650/580 rincon or similar machine to snatch it's EFI system from. Mod the intake to fit say a 350x, figure out how to mount the engine temp sensor so it's somewhat accurate (water cooled vs air), and trick it into not caring about the transmission shift solenoids not being connected (like taking an automatic car ECU and putting it into a manual, I've done that once, but the truck ran/functioned fine so I didn't care about the check engine light, no inspection in this state).

    Anyway, I'd say the EFI system would benefit over the Carb builds since it can adjust timing etc based on temp, so it can have prime tuning at full operating temps with no concern with how hard it is to start etc. In theory it should be more responsive too, big time since there's no accelerator pump on our carbs.

    Basic requirements off the top of my head for an EFI system is listed below, might miss something but gives an idea what sensors would be needed.

    ECU/Brain of the operation of course
    Air intake metering (so it knows how much gas to give the air charge)
    Fuel injector(s)
    O2 sensor (to make sure the tuning is burning correctly and at the right air fuel ratio)
    engine temp sensor (cold vs hot needs are different, aka so "choke" can work in the EFI system)
    crank/cam sensor (so the ECU knows when to spark etc, basically the same setup as what a CDI does, pulse generators might even work already for this need)
    Coil might have to be changed, depending how the ECU fires it, it's more of a computer, so it doesn't have raw power running though them normally, like our CDI's do.
    Throttle positioning sensor - this tells how much gas you're giving it, so if you go from a low rpm and floor it, it can give extra fuel charge to make up for the sudden vacuum loss. It also can cut injection when going from high rpm to idle to save fuel, most modern cars do this when engine braking in gear.

    I think that's about everything, of course you have to power the ECU off 12v, so you would probably have to add a DC power kit and battery if the machine doesn't have a battery factory. This also means likely a dead battery = no start. If I recall correctly the Rincon does have a pull starter though, nearly impossible to start off it though I bet. I know the 450 foreman (carb for the one I have experience with) is a heck of a pull to get going.

    Probably should mention, the EFI systems don't really care how big or small an engine is, but going smaller than design makes it harder to meter the fuel as accurately for the over sized injector(s), same goes in reverse, going bigger than designed hits the limit of the injector not keeping up at high rpm/max fuel charge situations. The biggest thing to have accurate is how much air is flowing into the intake and it will adjust accordingly. Matching engine cc size would help keep it more accurate though. Changing the injector(s) might throw off the ECU map, but matching the engine size might make it more correct than having the oversized injector(s).

    Oh another spot to look for EFI systems could be modern motorcycles. First one that came to mind that probably wouldn't be a first pick is the 600rr bike, it has dual sets of injectors and multi cylinder so kind of a different beast from what our 3 wheeler engines are deigned after. Would make a wicked fast 3 wheeler with that engine in it for in a straight line race with the 110hp or so and if I remember right 15k rpm red line.
    Ecotrons has small engine efi systems for gy6 scooters and universal systems up to 800cc. I've thought about buying one of these too but I can never justify the cost with as much as I actually get to ride (not enough).

    https://www.ecotrons.com/small_engin...njection_kit//

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    1979 ATC110
    1983 ATC110
    1984 ATC110
    1984 ATC125M
    1985 ATC110 2 of them
    1985 ATC110 The wife's
    1987 ATC125M
    1985 ATC250ES
    1984 DX225 with 250 timberwolf engine and swingarm. Wolf in DX clothing

  13. #13
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    Neat product, I think I might have seen the page before. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but what's the point of listing a product like that, having a cart button, but no way to add the item to cart, or even post a price? Would be nice to atleast see what the price range is. Either case, I'm sure it's more than I'd want to spend with my current fund situation and such, but maybe my business will boom some day and I can sample a products like that on my 350x =). Being able to play with the ECU programming would be a neat learning experience.

  14. #14
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    I believe the listing that's for the 125-250cc engines is about $599. That's about the range of cc that I'd be looking at but I don't have the money for that kind of project at the moment lol

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    1979 ATC110
    1983 ATC110
    1984 ATC110
    1984 ATC125M
    1985 ATC110 2 of them
    1985 ATC110 The wife's
    1987 ATC125M
    1985 ATC250ES
    1984 DX225 with 250 timberwolf engine and swingarm. Wolf in DX clothing

  15. #15
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    Not too bad, I was expecting $800-1000, still more than I'd be wanting to spend though lol.

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