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Thread: Neutral Inhibitor Relay

  1. #1
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    Jul 2018
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    Neutral Inhibitor Relay

    Anyone who has messed with 200ES wiring has run into this abominable turd of a part.
    We canít get a suitable replacement. They fail and make diagnosing a nightmare.

    After several lengthy discussions Ps2fixer, our resident wiring guru, has given thought to coming up with a solution.
    I had a bad switch but apparently threw it away some time ago.

    Do you have a bad Neutral Inhibitor Relay for the 200ES you could donate to the cause?
    Iíll reimburse your shipping if you send him one to dissect.

    If suitable parts can be found, I will be first in line to buy a ĎPlug In Solution Kití.
    Wouldnít that be nice.

    Anyone with thoughts please jump in.

    Yes, I know you can jump the harness across the ground leads to bypass the thing but thatís some sorry rigging and wiring & halfass rigging never play well with each other.

    Discuss.
    I was born and raised on Venus & I may be here a while.....

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    MI, USA
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    4,075
    Yea, the bypass would do the same as hacking up the wiring, but with out the hacking part, and is fully reversible. Also if it's a working one, I could toy around with it and find a suitable replacement part, but I'm guessing I'll have to make it on a short wire lead and have it zip tied to the frame to secure it. A non-working one will work too, I just have to disassemble it to make sure I get things right.

    It appears it was only used on the 84 200es and 84 TRX200 machines, part numbers are 38500-969-405 & 38321-969-003. I'd be interested in other machines as well if there are any.

    FYI, cheapest shipping is first class package, runs around $3-4, you just need a small box to throw it in, or reuse a padded envelope (type with bubble wrap is best).

    Also, since this is likely to rank fairly high on google searches, here's how to test/diagnose/troubleshoot the relay. The ATC200ES service manual didn't have this info that I could find, the 84 TRX200 service manual did.



    The starter relay power runs though the inhibitor switch, so when it fails I'd assume the electric start no longer works via button. The wire diagram is a little weird to try to follow the logic on how it functions in the circuit exactly.


    Here's a photo of one (found on google) for a reference.

    Last edited by ps2fixer; 11-27-2018 at 03:26 PM.

  3. #3
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    Jul 2018
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    TN
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    Yeah, the 84 200ES seems to be the only ATC it was used on but the 1984 200ES had over 200K units produced. From what I have read, no other model comes close to those numbers. It's certainly the most prevalent Honda 3 wheeler around, Making this a worthy endeavor.

    Never mind the fact I have 2 and they are my favorite machine for all around use. LOL!!
    I was born and raised on Venus & I may be here a while.....

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    MI, USA
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    I've had 5 or so, just not sure where I put the trashed harnesses with that relay switch at lol. Too much junk in too little area I guess . Also I'm pretty sure those production numbers are USA only, world wide was probably a lot more, like in Europe the 200es was made into 85 as well. There's a thread talking more about the non-USA machines. I kind of want to meet up with someone with one of them machines to validate the wiring etc is an exact match for the US model.

    Anyway, based on the troubleshooting info I posted above, and the 200es harness I have on hand, I can make a bypass connector and send it to you Gabriel for testing. I'd still like to get my hands on one of the relays still though, if I do find a replacement option, would be nice to have the added benefit of fitting in the stock location. I'm thinking something like a normally closed automotive relay, or search motorcycle models that used something similar. Probably would just find out of production parts on the motorcycles though, or relays that are expensive.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    TN
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    So many electrical components mankind makes, there HAS to be a generic solution.
    Understanding its function(s) may help find a suitable replacement.

    My biggest stumbling block is forgetting what I think I know. Typical car wiring has permanent ground connections and interrupted hot connections. Everything on this ATC is opposite. Grounds are switch interrupted. Weird!!!!


    Step in and correct my wrong assumptions

    The switch itself has 4 pins. In no particular order:

    1-[Yellow/Red] Picks up hot from the DC consent fuse

    2-[grey] gets a ground connection from the reverse switch which also gives a ground to the CDI and the reverse indicator light

    3-[green/red] gives ground to the solenoid

    4-[green/red] receives ground through the starter button from the neutral switch.


    SO!
    It will not start in gear because the solenoid gets it's ground connection from the neutral switch through the neutral relay.
    That's simple.

    BUT, what is happening to the CDI as the reverse switch gives or interrupts ground? This grey wire is a bit confusing.


    Essentially it boils down to a relay that has one positive and three negatives. Finding one that makes the proper functions/connections, well, that's the rub.
    If one can be located for a reasonable price, making an adapter pigtail should make it plug and play. I will buy the first one. LOL!!


    This whole thing seems to rest a fraction of an inch outside my grasp. I feel like the solution would be pretty easy if I could just stop getting a headache when I stare at the wiring diagram.... HA!!!!! Not sure why this has hit my interest button but I will not rest until I understand the solution.
    Last edited by Gabriel; 11-27-2018 at 03:44 PM.
    I was born and raised on Venus & I may be here a while.....

  6. #6
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    Apr 2012
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    MI, USA
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    Haha yea, based on the toubleshooting info, it's just a basic relay. 2 wire to power the relay, two wires that are connected/disconnected based on the relay state. Super common in the automotive world, same function as a starter relay. However there's one catcher, the common style of relay is "normally open" meaning the switched on/off wiring is no connection with no power applied, this relay is the opposite, or a "normally closed" relay, and it looses connection when power is applied. At least that's my understanding of it looking at the wire diagram. I know jumping the two green wires is the bypass, and I have a harness to get the pinout right, but yea I'd like one on hand to toy with and make sure my understanding of it is accurate with a multi meter + battery (or pull the cap off and look at the relay, should be setup to push a contact instead of pull).

    Sounds like in the automotive world they are common, but are dual use (normally closed + normally open connections) or a 5 pin relay (SPDT Relay). Looks like they are cheap on ebay. Comes with relay + a short pig tail. Assuming the wiring isn't garbage I could just put the right wires to the right connector to plug into the 200es/trx200 machines and have a plug and play replacement. Reason I target automotive ones is because they are already designed for being outside and around extreme conditions (heat, water, oil etc). The ones I found are 30-40 amp, should be way overkill for the starter relay lol. They don't say country of origin, but the listing provides good detailed info, the part gives a good diagram of how it functions (like most OEM auto relays), and it even has tech specs like the switch contact material is a Silver Alloy (one of the best of my understanding). It even has life span specs. 10 million switchings at 10.8k switchings per hour for the mechanical part, and 100k switchings for the electrical side at 900 switchings per hour. In other words, 100,000 times turnign the ignition switch on and off before it should be worn out, I think the switch would be dead before the relay lol. As you can see, I love it when I'm looking up parts and there's good details to go with it. This might be a solution to some automotive relay sourcing problems I've seen in the past too, not sure if 40amp switched relay is big enough though for the first thing that popped in my head, but not related to this anyway.

    I'll order the relays in bulk, worst case, it's always handy to have a nice universal water proof relay sitting around that can handle 30+ amps.

  7. #7
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    Yep, I just figured that one out too. Playing with a generic relay I had laying around. Need one that's backwards. Thanks Honda!!!

    Now....where to source a 4 pin plug that will fit the Honda harness??? That might be troublesome. That's your game Cory.
    If found, 4 wires could connect it to a plug for the generic relay. That would literally make for a plug and play solution.




    As many times as I have seen this problem addressed here and other places, I would think there would be a good amount of interest.
    Last edited by Gabriel; 11-27-2018 at 04:41 PM.
    I was born and raised on Venus & I may be here a while.....

  8. #8
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    Apr 2012
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    MI, USA
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    Yea that 4 pin connector I already have on hand lol. It's common on Jap machines, mainly for voltage regulator/rectifiers. I just ordered another 20 sets (male + female) since I'm actually finding a use for them finally lol (DC power kit & this bypass/adapter).

    Anyway, had a few minutes to dedicate to making the bypass. Nothing super special, just DIY it's not so easy with out the right tools etc.

    I'll probably wait to ship your wire project until after I get the relays on hand and use another connector to adapt it to the 200es plug. Then you can test both products for me so there's two options to fix the issue instead of just one. Aka, bypass it and be done with it, or stick with stock operation with an aftermarket solution.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_20181127_155327_270.jpg   IMG_20181127_155413_378.jpg   IMG_20181127_155425_634.jpg  

  9. #9
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    Boy, this site is really slow lately. I would have thought as many people who've had this issue, there'd be some responses. Maybe they're waiting for Fixer to get the beta testing results back first. LOL!!!

    Seriously, I will post a full review with pictures when I am finished.


    Also, there are generic relays on the market with a screw hole on top. That might be nice. One self tapping sheet metal screw into the battery box OR a longer bolt on one side of the regulator would make a perfect mounting spot.
    I was born and raised on Venus & I may be here a while.....

  10. #10
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    Apr 2012
    Location
    MI, USA
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    Yea the relays I ordered has a metal tab with a bolt hole for mounting. Tab is removable too. Kind of hoping it's similar size to the OEM relay, or something that uses the same style of mounting as the OEM part (like a small CDI box). Could always include a couple zip ties with the product as another option too.

    Also yea, the site hasn't had much traffic lately from what I've seen. I've replied to nearly every new thread in the last month, and it's like 20 threads total lol. That's why I've been bouncing around a new website to build myself, not to compete with the forums, but a place to log the data here in a easier way to look up. I own the domain atvinterchange.com running wordpress, but blog style posts isn't very efficient for finding stuff, about the same setup as a forum, just only one poster lol. This is kind of part of my html5 interactive harness diagram post, I might try to make it a little more universal for other parts, or even just images with measurements on it (for zoom in, moving around, and comparing any two parts etc). Would be awesome getting community generated data (measurements), but it's fairly uncommon for someone to take the extra time to make the measurements and such.

    Anyway, back on topic, I'm sure the bypass plug will work. The main thing I want to test is the relay one if I can't get a inhibitor relay from somewhere fairly cheap. Seems too many fail so ebay is pretty dried up for them even when searching for the 84 trx200 model. I think the cheapest one I've seen sold for $25 and it kind of looked like the aftermarket one I found that's over 70 pounds (Uk). I might just have to pull the one off my good 200es to toy around with and probably forget to reinstall it and wonder why the electric doesn't work the next time I go to start it lol.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    snyder texas
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    456
    I scrapped an 87 Suzuki lt300 and I think it had something real close to what y’all are talking about you might check into that and I will dig through my stuff to see if I kept it
    you know whats right therefore you know what is expected

  12. #12
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    Apr 2012
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    MI, USA
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    Cool stuff, I'll have to see if I can dig up a service manual for that machine. Thanks for the tip.


    Edit:

    Seems like there's something similar for sure on that machine, here's a thread about electric start and a mention of some relays, neutral/reverse switches etc.

    https://www.suzukiatvforums.com/foru...-please-2.html

    No luck on free downloadable manuals though.
    Last edited by ps2fixer; 11-28-2018 at 07:52 PM.

  13. #13
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    snyder texas
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    Couple of pics of what I think might be the same or similar Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CB45F4FD-2F64-4C66-8A44-B5EF5E0EDB46.jpeg 
Views:	7 
Size:	2.17 MB 
ID:	255791Click image for larger version. 

Name:	7BE328C4-9682-4845-83C6-430D6F2D5B22.jpeg 
Views:	1 
Size:	2.15 MB 
ID:	255792. Haven’t tested it as stated above but quad would spin the motor as normal
    you know whats right therefore you know what is expected

  14. #14
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    Interesting, looks about like the same thing, just plastic housing instead of the smaller metal one. I wonder if the pinout matches the Honda one. Of course the connector is the opposite one.

    If you don't have a use for it, or if it's a junk part, I'd be interested in playing around with it.

    Also for more complete details and possible google search results. The Suzuki part number for the 1987 LT300E is 38740-24X50 and it's also in production yet at around $33.51 from partzilla. The part diagram labels it as a Neutral Start Relay. Looks like that relay was used on a ton of machines. I'll have to poke around and see if I can find a wire diagram/service manual for one of them some time.
    Last edited by ps2fixer; 11-28-2018 at 08:50 PM.

  15. #15
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    ps2fixer sent you a pm
    you know whats right therefore you know what is expected

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