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Thread: China CDI Reviews on ATC350X

  1. #31
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    Sure- https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F332893683261

    eBay- gy6 cdi There’s about 1000 items and many of the clear ones stating 50cc-200cc bikes

    Shep

  2. #32
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    Ahh that explains the transformer and extra didoes I was seeing. It's a DC CDI, won't work on our 3 wheelers, they are all AC based (atleast for the Hondas). If someone added in a voltage regulator/rectifier and ran the dc power to the CDI as well it would work though.

    Really, engine size doesn't mean a whole lot. Based on the service manuals, the timing specs for an ATC110 matches an ATC200X, and also an ATC350X. The only specs the service manual gives is idle advancement, and full advancement though. Of course the 200x has mechanical advancement, but the overall spec matches.

    Talking about the 200 series engines, it would be neat to actually read the timing curve of say my 200ES engine (I have one that seems to run really well, smoker though too), and install the spark advancer springs I sell in it and compare new vs old but working well OEM. Would require a little bit different logic since I couldn't directly control the RPM. Since the pulse generator timing changes, I'd have to figure out how to detect rpm and calculate degrees from that. I'm guessing tapping into the AC generator and reading the wave forms would be the best route, just no clear indication of top dead center except the spark timing. I bet if I made some sort of meter it would be super useful for those with this type of engine to tune the advancement. Different springs would give different curve points (it's an actual curve too). I guess a basic timing light would give a fair idea on how it's performing though, just no hard numbers.

    Seems like just about everything is possible now with programming and a micro controller lol. I think I might have a new passion.

    Also the GY6 engine is a scooter based engine, old ones were 2 stroke, and I think newer ones are 4 stroke. Since Chinese parts never seem to have any real specs, you have to be sure it's for a 4 stroke atleast if you plan to run it on a 4 stroke engine.

    Here's one I found that says it's AC powered and also is the adjustable timing curve style. It says it's digitial, but I don't see a micro controller on the board. Either it's hiding on the other side, under the huge brown/redish cap, or they are flat out lying and it's analog based. I see a few sizable caps on the board, so I'm thinking it stores the pulse signal, and delays it somehow still but really don't know more than that.

    Also it's worth nothing, I don't see anything in the CDI boxes that would generate enough heat to ever need the housing to have a heat sink, again probably just a marketing tactic for the general public that doesn't know the difference. I suspect there's no Honda OEM CDI's with heat sinks, I could see once fuel injection came into play that need for them due to the higher clock speeds and such the computer needs to run at (aka ECU).

    Last edited by ps2fixer; 12-17-2018 at 03:12 PM.

  3. #33
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    Updated first post, got the TRX400EX CDI today. I'm kind of shocked it didn't work out like I was hoping. I'm really interested to see what's really going on with the high rpm timing. Maybe the new/china CDI's are faster than the stock one and it's getting too much advancement at the high rpms.

    If anyone else has a CDI they want me to test out, I can see what the effects are, just pay the return shipping if you want it back ($4). I can adapt my harness to any CDI if needed.

    I've bought a lot of harnesses lately, so I probably should put some focus on getting reproductions made. I'm spending more than I'm making, so I can't keep buying stuff. That reminds me, I have to order more heat shrink for a project I'm working on -_- lol. R&D is a fun pass time though.

  4. #34
    fabiodriven's Avatar
    fabiodriven is offline Aspiring romance novel cover model, and the Official 3WW slayer of thieves and swindlers. Catch me if you can
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    Have you done anything with the SX and ES? I think I saw an SX CDI in my garage the other day. I'd have to confirm that's what it is before I sent it but if it's any help you could definitely use it. I don't remember if you've already done the SX or not.
    85 Tri-Zinger 60
    85 ATC250SX
    86 ATC250SX
    87 ATC250SX
    02 XR650L conversion
    84 ATC 480R

  5. #35
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    The 250SX and ES are wired different, not a big deal for me, but they are not plug and play for the 350x. They also have a neutral safety switch that needs to be grounded to get spark. I'd defo have to make an adapter to test this since the Green and Green/White wires on the 350x would need to be connected together, and ran to both pins on the CDI to bypass the safety circuit.

    I have an 85 250ES CDI, don't have a easy to connect connector right now, but I think I could modify another connector just for testing though. Would you need the SX CDI back? I'd like to get the stock advancement curve off it if/when I figure out the CDI tester stuff. I probably have an 86 250ES CDI around somewhere, but I only had one of those machines, not sure where the electronics from it are at. Pretty sure the 250ES and SX used the same part number for the CDI.

  6. #36
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    Have fun building your own CDI.


    All kinds of stuff is possible. Doing all this CDI thinking, reminded me about using a GM HEI module on a 200ES. I had to drag through some pictures to find it. Of course, this only works on trikes with batteries because it's an inductive ignition instead of capacitive.

    That's part of the heat sink from an old Boss amp that died. GM HEI modules require a heat sink.
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    The story of three wheels and a man...

  7. #37
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    Haha, ironically I used the exact same module to fire up a low miles Toyota 22R engine that was missing the "ignitor", maybe it was a ford module, can't recall 100% for sure, same shape and such. On the Toyota engine, I could tell its timing was slower than stock, maybe it has no advancement at all? Not sure exactly how those work internally. Of course I did things wrong, I didn't put a heat sink on the module lol, it was only a test run for about 15 seconds though and the guys that were looking at it instant bought it for $400 and didn't even try to haggle the price. If I remember right it was an 83 engine and I sold it in the late 90s. Engine only had something like 30-40k miles.

    Anyway, even if I fail at the CDI project, I'll atleast learn something from it, really already learned a bunch and haven't even gotten the boards yet lol.



    Also kind of an update on the thread, I might be getting a Yamaha CDI to play around with too. Unsure what the source machine is though. Poking around on ebay, it seems the Yamaha CDI's run $50+ used, so an adapter + known working CDI's from the Honda/China clone world might be a thing people would like.


    Also, my dad has one chainsaw that doesn't run right, timing isn't right at all, hard starting etc. Based on what I've talked to him on these CDI's, he's thinking maybe the advancement circuit failed in the coil and it's not delaying the signal, aka full advancement while trying to pull start it. He mentioned that he should be able to test that theory with his test light and starting the engine and pulling the side cover off. If I built a fancy CDI tester, I might be able to figure out some way to measure the chainsaw advancement properties too. Same issue as the 200 series though, no sensor to tie into to know where top dead center is located. Maybe a simple magnet switch opposite from the coil could be used to calculate it (since the flywheel is very close to the outer case). Just ideas/thinking out loud.

    Also, if there's any other micro controller ideas out there, I'm all ears. Might not be an expert on these, but having more project ideas never hurts, even if it's just "simple" ideas like a harness/atv tester that plugs into the CDI connector and checks the circuits (resistance when engine off, maybe peak voltage when running, etc). I'm half thinking of trying to figure out some sort of semi-universal dash cover that could have this micro controller in it and display rpm etc to the rider. Just would need a long enough lead wire to plug it into the CDI plug (if my CDI project works, I should be able to replace the CDI + display the outputs with a powerful enough micro controller). Big ideas, but not much funds right now to put into them, so everything will be more proof of concept than actual prototyping/production building. Maybe something like this already exists? I know there's one for scooters, but it doesn't replace the CDI and requires user to mount it and wire it in using their own methods.

    Before I know it I'll be wanting to put a 7 in display on the machine for digital gauges, fuel injector and related engine sensors for EFI lol.

  8. #38
    TexFest's Avatar
    TexFest is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerAt the back of the pack
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    here's a performance racing 350x cdi i found online, maybe you could try it, www.mikesatvfix.com
    TPC 450R

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexFest View Post
    here's a performance racing 350x cdi i found online, maybe you could try it, www.mikesatvfix.com
    Yea, that's Oscar/Mike. I'm working with him for making adapters for other models. At some point he's going to ship me one of his CDI's for me to test out the product, and if I figure out this CDI tester/timing curve reader thing I'll compare his vs my stock one.

    Also there's this CDI linked below, it's $130 though
    https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com...CDI-Box-15_622

  10. #40
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    Another fun thought, has anyone tried the 87-92 TRX250X CDI on a 350x? More or less the same engine so I suspect the timing curve should be very close. The 250x cdi is still in production but $110... Also the pinout is wrong of the 350x, I think it was just the black/red and black/white wires that have to be swapped.

    Also, since I'm logging the machine/CDI specs and such from service manuals, I figured I'd also log the little tag number for each CDI. Seems like that's a solid way to ID them and there isn't a good place to look them up yet. If anyone wants to post them up that would help me out and validate what I have logged so far, can use any machine including TRX models. Some CDI's are printed with the numbers instead of a sticker/tag.

    Example is the 87-92 TRX250X CDI is labeled as HCO CI536, and the ATC350X is HA5 CI-92. Some machines have more than one CDI part number, so I suspect those special cases will have their own numbers too.

    I have a couple CDI's I'm unsure what machines they are from.

    969 CI-42 (1984-1985) - nvm on this one, it's a 200es one
    HA0 CI-93 (1984-1985)
    Last edited by ps2fixer; 01-14-2019 at 07:39 AM.

  11. #41
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    Well a little stumped on the 87-92 TRX250X CDI. The reverse switch is a strange design, and if I'm understanding things right, it needs a +12v on the ground pin from the lighting coil (after a bulb/resister). Does anyone know if the gray wire is critical for the CDI to work? I figured not hooked to anything would bypass it, but I see now it's a little more complex than just a normal ground switch. I'd think the two circuits are completely separate though and the ground switch is just to light the reverse light up, and the CDI side is just to test if it's grounded or not. Might have to wire up a 3w bulb inline and hook it up and see if I get any spark out of it. I'll poke around a bit more to research this out. Could just be a dead CDI I have too, or the 350x's exciter coil voltage is too low for some reason (it's about 80v peak at kick start speed, most other machines are 100v min).

    Look at the 350x vs 250x stator, looks like the 250x one matches the 350x one with less coils. I wonder if that's a possible interchange for these 350x engines. Probably an idea to test out another day. If this is a solid interchange, then in theory the Goki starter kit could be used on the trx250x engine, even if the 350x flywheel was required. Maybe they made a kit for the trx though, never looked into it.

    Reverse switch is just left of the CDI box in this diagram.

    I dug up the wire harness I have from the TRX250X machine and the wire diagram is spot on, white/yellow regulator plug to gray/black gives me 10k ohms reading, so that's the internal resister I'd suspect. Kind of hate to do it, but probably should pull the harness apart to locate it and see how big the resister is (1/4w, 1/2w, 1w etc).

    Last edited by ps2fixer; 01-15-2019 at 07:16 PM.

  12. #42
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    Really unique setup for the resistor. Found it located near the tail light plugs. It's one of the weird greenish colored resistors which I'm not 100% sure what's different about it vs a standard resistor. Color bands match my readings, 10k ohms with 5% tolerance. Kind of funny that it's crimped to bullet connectors, seems like it would be easier for them to directly crimp the wire to the resistor. It has a hard plastic tube to protect the resistor and then meltable tubing covering the whole thing and melted to the wire at both ends. Anyway, pretty sure it's just a standard 1/4w resistor.


    Anyway, photos to see some weird Honda engineering for the TRX250X.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_20190115_181121_888.jpg   IMG_20190115_181138_666.jpg  

  13. #43
    Ranvier is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerAt the back of the pack
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    Still no objective test of this “racing” cdi?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranvier View Post
    Still no objective test of this “racing” cdi?
    Sorry, I still plan to test it. Weather got super cold in my area (lows of -12F) and I don't have a good shelter to work in. After that my carb needed work since it wasn't running right even with the OEM CDI. I got the carb off, cleaned out and tossed in an ultra sonic cleaner to get it cleaner. After that I needed carb parts because the bottom plug was corroded so badly it had a hole in it. Carb is all set to install now, but I had a drive failure in my computer, so that delayed me on things for about a week or so. I'm self employed so my ebay listings are critical for my income, and I'm running out of stock atm on a lot of stuff so that's been my priority atm to get fixed.

    After I catch up on things, I have to re-pin my 350x CDI connector to be stock again since it's still swapped around for the TRX250X CDI, install the carb and tune it on the stock CDI and probably run though the CDI's again.

    I also thought of a new metric to add into the mix, but I'm not sure if the numbers will even mean anything. If it gives interesting results, I'll post my findings.

    I do have one of Mike's CDIs on hand, it's just still sitting in the box till I get a chance to test it. From what I've heard (though him) most people love it and say it's better than stock, but there's no hard numbers that I know of to cover the claims. I know the buttometer isn't always calibrated right and can give biased results.

  15. #45
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    Well I'm back at it after quite a long break from this thread. Carb has been cleaned though an ultra sonic cleaner, had to replace the bottom main jet access bolt, and I rejetted a step richer for both pilot and main since my engine has a DG exhaust. It's still a little lean, but probably close enough to be safe to ride it this way. It's just a tiny bit cold blooded now for reving, before it was worse for reving cold and had to run it on choke longer, so have to adjust the needle height and such to see if I need to go up another jet or not.

    Carb tuning aside, I finally got to test out Mike's CDI, results are in the first post.

    I also made an adapter so I could take voltage readings while the engine is running. Right away I can see a common thread on CDI's that were not designed for this machine, they are drawing more power from the exciter coil (more amps), so the peak voltage is reading lower. For Mike's CDI, I'm not sure if this is an effect of having too large of a capacitor, or if it's the fact it's a digital CDI and the micro controller needs too much power at higher rpm. My guess is the capacitor though since the Orange China CDI had similar readings and effects but I'm pretty sure it's an analog style CDI.

    Anyway, sorry it took me so long to get my machine back together, life kind of happened and got side tracked for a while.

    Long story short, at least for the 85 ATC350x, stick with the OEM CDI for best performance unless there's another CDI that comes out on the market that's truely designed for this machine, or Mike works out the kinks with his CDI (I've heard it works fine on the 86 style stator).

    Speaking of the 86 stator, I'd be interested in the stator + fly wheel if anyone has one laying around. Bare min I'd like to borrow it to get some voltage readings and such to see exactly what the differences are, and stator wire size measurements and resistance to estimate exciter coil length (aka wraps) vs the 85 stator. I think the big problem is that all these CDI's are designed for more modern machines, which standardized at a higher exciter coil output spec than what the 85 350x was designed with, but sounds like the 86 350x received the updated design. Weird thing is, the 85 and 86 CDI are the same part number.

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