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Thread: Picked up Honda Big Red this weekend...snorkel?

  1. #16
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    For humor and advice, here's an update. Timing is off on trike. Instead of using a straw to help find TDC through spark plug hole, I used a pencil. Turned crankshaft a tad, pencil broke about an inch or inch and a half inside cylinder. Now I can't turn the crank to fish it out because it looks like the broken pencil is holding the exhaust valve open. I removed the exhaust header to try to look in but can't see well with the frame bar and possibly the angle. I then figure I will have to remove the engine to either be able to see down in there or have to remove head, and break the head off bottom rear engine mount bolt (last one to remove per manual). Heat up, pb blaster, try to beat the bolt through and nothing, so I will buy a long drift today and try again. Already ordered new bolt.

    Anyways, if I cannot see the pencil through the exhaust valve port, would I have to remove the entire head? If so, what should I go ahead and buy as far as gaskets and whatnot? Open to any suggestions!

    Hopefully this was humorous for some. Trying to teach yourself to work on engines is a trial-and-error, expensive new hobby.

  2. #17
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    Was it the eraser end? I ask because there's a metal band on the end. If there's only wood and graphite in there, you might be able to gently dig around with a probe and break it loose. Then you could vacuum it out (maybe). If that metal band is in there, stop what you're doing and tear it down. Just my opinion.

    Next time, just take the plugs out of the valve cover where you adjust the rockers. Rotate the engine and watch the intake valve. As soon as it closes look through the timing port move the engine to the mark on the flywheel and you got TDC.
    I was born and raised on Venus & I may be here a while.....

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Was it the eraser end? I ask because there's a metal band on the end. If there's only wood and graphite in there, you might be able to gently dig around with a probe and break it loose. Then you could vacuum it out (maybe). If that metal band is in there, stop what you're doing and tear it down. Just my opinion.

    Next time, just take the plugs out of the valve cover where you adjust the rockers. Rotate the engine and watch the intake valve. As soon as it closes look through the timing port move the engine to the mark on the flywheel and you got TDC.
    Luckily, it's not the metal band and eraser end. I also though about trying to burn it out, what do you think? If I get the engine out, do you think there's enough clearance through the exhaust port to be able to see the pencil and shove it away from the exhaust port so it'll atleast close?

    Also, is it necessary to follow the service manual exactly to remove a 200E engine? Such as disassemble sub transmission, alternator, move engine out right side, ect? Or will it fit out the left side without removing all that? I would have to order gaskets and whatnot if I remove them.

  4. #19
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    Depending on what you're doing, finding exact top dead center requires a degree wheel and a piston stop. There's too much range the piston stops for to accurately get TDC. If it's for the timing chain, look for the T mark on the fly wheel. The F mark is for checking ignition timing (aka Fire). The T mark is accurate enough for the timing chain, but can be unreliable for ignition timing when modifying (sometimes it's stamped off a little from what I've read).

    You can pull the engine out as a whole unit, but taking that extra stuff off would probably make it easier. Might have to pull the starter to get more room to work and maybe airbox/carb. I don't work on the 200 series engines a whole lot so can't remember how I pulled parts machines apart lol.

    Since there isn't a whole lot of room to work around the spark plug hole, you might be better off pulling the engine out of the frame to try to fish it out, then you can use gravity to move it around and some long narrow pliers or tweezers to try to fish it out.

    If you do take it apart, I'd say new head gasket, maybe new base gasket for the cylinder if it breaks loose or has any signs of leaking. For the top end, since you'll have it off, I'd inspect the head, make sure the valves are seating well. If you're up to it and have the tools, replace the valve stem seals. Re-assemble the valve cover with permatex GRAY RTV. It gives you a lot more time to work with to assemble, but takes 24hr to cure. Hondabond, Yamabond etc might setup up really fast and if it sets up too fast it won't seal. I don't remember the name of the stuff, but there's a bunch of people that swear by another brand that's like Hondabond in the porting/build chainsaw communities, but it sets up in something like 30 seconds. Also, if you care about the decompression system on the 350x, make sure everything is loooking good in that area, no excess wear etc. A new seal for the shaft isn't a bad idea. If it doesn't work right you might need a new cable, not sure if it can be adjusted. Some people just pull the cable and live with out the decompression system, but you have to learn the trick to starting it, and you get worn out quicker if you can't get it to fire up right away. No decompression system puts more stress on the kick starter system, but I don't think this machine has any real issues in that area so shouldn't be a problem.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    Depending on what you're doing, finding exact top dead center requires a degree wheel and a piston stop. There's too much range the piston stops for to accurately get TDC. If it's for the timing chain, look for the T mark on the fly wheel. The F mark is for checking ignition timing (aka Fire). The T mark is accurate enough for the timing chain, but can be unreliable for ignition timing when modifying (sometimes it's stamped off a little from what I've read).

    You can pull the engine out as a whole unit, but taking that extra stuff off would probably make it easier. Might have to pull the starter to get more room to work and maybe airbox/carb. I don't work on the 200 series engines a whole lot so can't remember how I pulled parts machines apart lol.

    Since there isn't a whole lot of room to work around the spark plug hole, you might be better off pulling the engine out of the frame to try to fish it out, then you can use gravity to move it around and some long narrow pliers or tweezers to try to fish it out.

    If you do take it apart, I'd say new head gasket, maybe new base gasket for the cylinder if it breaks loose or has any signs of leaking. For the top end, since you'll have it off, I'd inspect the head, make sure the valves are seating well. If you're up to it and have the tools, replace the valve stem seals. Re-assemble the valve cover with permatex GRAY RTV. It gives you a lot more time to work with to assemble, but takes 24hr to cure. Hondabond, Yamabond etc might setup up really fast and if it sets up too fast it won't seal. I don't remember the name of the stuff, but there's a bunch of people that swear by another brand that's like Hondabond in the porting/build chainsaw communities, but it sets up in something like 30 seconds. Also, if you care about the decompression system on the 350x, make sure everything is loooking good in that area, no excess wear etc. A new seal for the shaft isn't a bad idea. If it doesn't work right you might need a new cable, not sure if it can be adjusted. Some people just pull the cable and live with out the decompression system, but you have to learn the trick to starting it, and you get worn out quicker if you can't get it to fire up right away. No decompression system puts more stress on the kick starter system, but I don't think this machine has any real issues in that area so shouldn't be a problem.
    Ps2fixer, thanks for the write up. I already ordered a full engine gasket kit on Amazon, figured for $27 there's no reason to not have one and if I don't have to remove the valve cover and head to get that pencil. I see in the service manual there's no gasket for that part, it only says a sealant like you said. I already have Permatex Form A Gasket #2, and Permatex Aviation cement form a gasket #3. Would these work in place of the gray RTV, or is "Permatex Ultra Grey Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker - 75181" the only option. Thanks for the help in advance, this will be my first time pulling the head. I'm reading the Clymer service manual but some parts can be vague for someone that's never done it.

  6. #21
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    Red RTV is a really soft sealant, it's ok in some areas, but for the valve cover I'd suggest the Gray still. Also fair warning on the Red RTV, be sure to never apply too much, a thin film is enough. If you get a bead of the RTV in the engine it can plug up oil path ways or collect on the pickup screen for the oil pump. Generally when someone sees Red RTV they think a hillbilly hick put the engine together on the cheap instead of properly. Some areas that need sealer like intakes on cars sometimes uses some on the corners, but not for the whole gasket. The Red stuff is pretty good, but it's more general use I'd say.

    I've never used the Form A stuff, but it kind of sounds like it's a thread sealant or something like that. I see fast drying, and hard setting as probably bad things. Hard setting might take it very hard to remove the valve cover down the road, you don't want to cement the cover on, just seal it. Also it needs to be high temp, since the head gets quite hot.

    Just so we are looking at the same stuff, here's a random link to the gray rtv I'm talking about. I don't see anything on the tube that says high torque, but it's in the details of the listing. Mfr # is 82194.
    https://www.zoro.com/permatex-rtv-si...94/i/G0600415/

    Right on the product specs, here's the uses below.

    Characteristics: High Load Engine Conditions With Closely Spaced Bolt Patterns, Oil and Water-Glycol Resistance

    For Use On: Valve Covers, Oil Pans, Automatic Transmission Pans, Intake Manifold End Seals, Timing Covers, Water Pumps, Thermostat Housings, Cover Housing Gasket, Differential, Assembly to Rear Axle Housing, Power Dividers, axle Shaft Flanges
    Usage is clean both surfaces well, apply a thin even bead around the whole gasket surface, and bolt together per service manual specs. A little goes along way, it squishes down quite thin. It starts to harden after an hour, so you have a lot of time for cleanup etc too. I'm sure the tube has a better description though.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    Red RTV is a really soft sealant, it's ok in some areas, but for the valve cover I'd suggest the Gray still. Also fair warning on the Red RTV, be sure to never apply too much, a thin film is enough. If you get a bead of the RTV in the engine it can plug up oil path ways or collect on the pickup screen for the oil pump. Generally when someone sees Red RTV they think a hillbilly hick put the engine together on the cheap instead of properly. Some areas that need sealer like intakes on cars sometimes uses some on the corners, but not for the whole gasket. The Red stuff is pretty good, but it's more general use I'd say.

    I've never used the Form A stuff, but it kind of sounds like it's a thread sealant or something like that. I see fast drying, and hard setting as probably bad things. Hard setting might take it very hard to remove the valve cover down the road, you don't want to cement the cover on, just seal it. Also it needs to be high temp, since the head gets quite hot.

    Just so we are looking at the same stuff, here's a random link to the gray rtv I'm talking about. I don't see anything on the tube that says high torque, but it's in the details of the listing. Mfr # is 82194.
    https://www.zoro.com/permatex-rtv-si...94/i/G0600415/

    Right on the product specs, here's the uses below.



    Usage is clean both surfaces well, apply a thin even bead around the whole gasket surface, and bolt together per service manual specs. A little goes along way, it squishes down quite thin. It starts to harden after an hour, so you have a lot of time for cleanup etc too. I'm sure the tube has a better description though.
    Now I am starting to panic. The intake valve adjustment screw is seized and will not move. 24mm wrench began to strip it, now I've been trying to soak it in PB blaster, heating with propane, pipe wrench, vice grips, tried to make a slit with a cutoff wheel to chisel it, nothing has worked and the metal is soft. I wouldn't panic as much if the manual didn't say before removing the valve cover, line the cam chain sprocket O and cylinder V together before removing, which I cannot do because a broken pencil is stuck in my exhaust valve that can't be fished out. What would yall do? Unfortunately I don't have access to a welder to weld another bolt or something. Does the cam sprocket really have to line up to remove the head cover? Best case scenario it doesn't, I can remove valve cover then head, get pencil out, and can soak the valve cover in oil or something for days and maybe it'll loosen up. or cut the adjustment bolt out somehow. Or order a used one if necessary.Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #23
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    fabiodriven is offline Aspiring romance novel cover model, and the Official 3WW slayer of thieves and swindlers. Catch me if you can
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    Yikes! I'm thinking maybe air chizzle my nizzle.
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  9. #24
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    The very outside of it is just for the o-ring seal. I wonder if someone tried to put some sort of sealer on it or the threads? It's made of AL so it's not steel, so not so easy to weld to. Never had one I couldn't get out and never caused that much damage. Is your socket 6 pointed, and are you using hand tools or an impact? I personally like to use hand tools on things like this, breaker bar.

    The head has a layer of something on it, I don't think it really looks like typical oil build up, but like a bed liner or something. Maybe that's what's gluing it in.

    FYI, if you can get the valve cover cap off you can buy new ones from Honda last time I checked. Not sure why you're trying to remove it, not really needed to pull the valve cover, but it is needed for adjusting the valves.

    Careful with heat, AL gives no warning before it melts, steel will turn red/orange, and melts around yellow.

    Worst case, I think a used valve cover is pretty cheap on ebay.

  10. #25
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    Can the head cover be removed even though the cam sprocket O and engine case V are not lined up? This is what the service manual says to do before removing it but I can't move the crank at all because of that pencil. Will the head cover still come off without damaging anything when the O and V are not lined up?

  11. #26
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    Yea it can be removed w\o lining it correctly. It's just best practice to move it to top dead center so the cam isn't pushing on the valves. Just break all of the valve cover bolts loose and unscrew them evenly to release the pressure. You can't move the crank anyway, so not like you could line it up if you wanted to.

  12. #27
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    Ps2fixer, you're the man. Removed the head cover and head and found the pencil. I already ordered a used head cover for $35 that has both adjustment bolts, compression lever that works unlike mine, and the rocker arms. Now I'll do some of the measurements from service manual for cam lobes and everything and put back together. The manual says "clean the entire head in cleaning solvent" which I am interpreting soak it in simple green or something for a few hours, take it out and dry with compressed air? And for removing carbon off piston, maybe a wire brush on a low speed drill? Wish Clymer went into more detail for the rookies. Here's a picture of the culprit. The piston doesn't seem as bad as some of the other images I've seen on this website, ,maybe someone rebuilt the topend at one point. Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #28
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    Here's where you can get a Honda service manual.

    http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

    The top of the head and valve cover surfaces need to be clean so the new sealer can seal to them. Same type of thing as the head gasket surfaces. Normally I've seen it done with a razor blade to remove any old gasket material, then brake clean to get the surface oil free and remove the rest of the material. There might be an easier process, don't exactly build engines every day lol.

    Not 100% sure, but I don't think that's the stock piston. I think the OEM ones are flat top. Maybe it's a 10.5:1 or something. The carbon build up isn't super bad, might be a bit rich on the jetting, but it's also pretty natural to have carbon build up slightly anyway, don't think I've ever pulled apart an engine the was clean lol. Probably wouldn't hurt to give he head atleast a good cleaning in some parts cleaner or kerosene to get that gunk layer off the head fins so you can be sure your valve cover sealer job is good.

    FYI, the two huge like 17mm or 19mm bolts on the top of the valve cover are just caps with o-rings to seal it. It gives access to the rocker arm tappets to adjust the play between the valve end and cam lobe.

    I'd think a wire wheel should be pretty safe on the piston, but it would be best to remove the piston so no metal strands get in the engine. I can't remember what a good cleaner is that dissolves carbon is.

  14. #29
    wellys88 is offline At The Back Of The Pack Arm chair racerFirst time rider
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    when nobodys around stick the whole lot in the dishwasher, it will come out like mew;O lol

  15. #30
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    I have a Honda manual for the 82-83 Honda Big Red 200e. If interested PM me your address and I will put in the mail on Monday.
    Last edited by hublake; 01-19-2019 at 07:26 PM.
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