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Thread: Picked up Honda Big Red this weekend...snorkel?

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
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    111
    Quote Originally Posted by hublake View Post
    I have a Honda manual for the 82-83 Honda Big Red 200e. If interested PM me your address and I will put in the mail on Monday.
    Thanks Hublake, I have the Clymers manual that covers multiple trikes it can just be vague sometimes for a first timer. My Athena gaskets have arrived and I'll be installing the head gasket today. The manual doesn't say anything about using a gasket sealant, and I have seen one thread on here say install it dry, and others say use Yamabond or Hondabond, another said "Hi Tac" gasket sealant. What do y'all use? I have Permatex Aviation cement, Permatex form-a-gasket #2, and the Permatex RTV gray Ps2fixer recommended, should I use any of these or just install it dry?

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    4,114
    The head gasket you install with nothing on it. It's the valve cover on top of the head that needs a sealer. The head gasket is special made to hold up to the pressure and heat involved. I suspect there might be some sort of product out there for head gaskets, but I've never used anything like that, and I've never heard of an OEM maker use anything like that.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    The head gasket you install with nothing on it. It's the valve cover on top of the head that needs a sealer. The head gasket is special made to hold up to the pressure and heat involved. I suspect there might be some sort of product out there for head gaskets, but I've never used anything like that, and I've never heard of an OEM maker use anything like that.
    Alright, getting ready to install head gasket and I've hit 2 dead ends. For one, the complete gasket kit I have doesn't have identifiers. I went on the website and could see what is all included in just the topend kit, and as far as the small O-rings go, there's 3 green ones and one small black one for top end. Problem is 4 small black O-rings came in the kit all different sizes. I need the O-RING (10X1.6) that goes on rear right dowel when looking from pullstart side and they all look the same. What do yall think by the picture? If anyone can identify, I can get this thing put back together!
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    Secondly, how in the world are you supposed to get the boss bolt behind pullstarter out with the allen wrench head? Is it only possible when engine is on trike with chain and in gear, or is there another trick to keep crank from turning while it's on my workbench? My impact driver isn't strong enough.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Edmond, KS
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    2,531
    From what I can tell, the two o-rings in the middle appear to have the same thickness. The one on the right is thicker while the one on the left is thinner. You need to measure the thickness to find out which one is the 1.6 (mm?) one. You either need to measure one side for thickness or measure the thickness top to bottom. I hope this makes sense.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
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    Uh oh. I measured the thickness and none of the black ones were 1.6. I looked at part number 91301-200-000 for the o-ring on google and saw some were green and were O-rings for valve guides.. I got the complete engine kit but the topend kit has 3 small green O-rings, and one small black o-ring. I figured two greens for valve guide seals, one green for oil seal for cylinder, and I couldn't figure out the other one. Would that possibly sound right? Here's what the other 2 look like and the link to rebuild kit for topend only.Click image for larger version. 

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    http://www.athenaparts.com/eng/produ...nd-gaskets-kit

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
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    It keeps getting more and more interesting. I removed left case cover, removed flywheel, and there is no woodruff key on the crank. There is not even a slot for one, almost like it was grinded off entirely. The slot is still in the flywheel though. Have yall ever seen this? What would yall do now? I see crankshafts on ebay for $40 or so. Does the bottom end need to be split to install a crankshaft?

    My other options would be to buy a used bottom end and hopefully it has no problems. Or buy an entire used engine and part out this one to make some of the money back for a used one. I'm surprised this thing even started for a minute. I'd love to hear some advice from yall!
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  7. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    4,114
    I don't have any 200E parts, but maybe the 82 185s engine is similar enough?

    It looks like the key sheered, you should be able to dig out the key on both the flywheel and crank and get a new key for it. Not sure if the crank is worn too much or not though. The fly wheel when bolted on should contact the surface of the crank and friction holds it on quite well with out the key.

    The cases split and the crank comes out from the center of the two.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    I don't have any 200E parts, but maybe the 82 185s engine is similar enough?

    It looks like the key sheered, you should be able to dig out the key on both the flywheel and crank and get a new key for it. Not sure if the crank is worn too much or not though. The fly wheel when bolted on should contact the surface of the crank and friction holds it on quite well with out the key.

    The cases split and the crank comes out from the center of the two.
    You just made my day. I thought the crankshaft was grinded down so much that the keyway disappeared as well. Just tried to get it out but it's really in there. Do you have a trick for it? Heating it up and putting a flathead under the lip and hitting with a sounds like it could be disastrous. You can kinda see the lip of the key in one of the pics.

    Edit: Just got it out. Thanks for the advice, hopefully it's not too worn to be re-used. I'll order another key and hopefully get this thing running. This would explain why the timing was so screwed up.
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    Last edited by Pierce1989; 01-24-2019 at 07:46 PM.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    4,114
    Pretty sure the timing on that machine has nothing to do with the fly wheel. Isn't the pulse generator under the "CDI" cover on the head and is ran off the Cam? I guess if the mechanical timing was set based on the fly wheel it could be way off though. I guess the real question is what is the buildup on the crank. Is it material from the flywheel, or is is grown into the crank. I know photos can make things look worse than they really are. Maybe there's a spec in the service manual for the size there. I probably can't be too much of a help except maybe touch up the surfaces and dry fit the fly wheel on the crank and see if the bolting it on will make it hold via friction. If not you'll probably have to replace the flywheel and/or crank. There's atleast a hope that it will work w\o replacing them though. Depends how much it bothers you. Pretty sure worst case it would sheer the key again.

    The other question is, how did the key sheer in the first place. Normally on like lawn mowers they are fairly hard to sheer. I've hit a stump before with a brigs and the key didn't sheer, but I don't think I've ever done that with a cast iron flywheel engine.

    Personally I'd probably just use a flat punch where you can see where the key is and knock it out. Not sure what method you used, but seems like it worked. The opposite side of it should be in the flywheel, probably the same process, hit the edge of it and knock it out. Just careful of the steel surfaces.

    I might have a 200es parts engine, I can't recall for sure though. The output shaft would be shaft drive, but the rest should be more or less the same. Could look up honda part numbers to validate interchange fairly well too if it came down to it.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    Pretty sure the timing on that machine has nothing to do with the fly wheel. Isn't the pulse generator under the "CDI" cover on the head and is ran off the Cam? I guess if the mechanical timing was set based on the fly wheel it could be way off though. I guess the real question is what is the buildup on the crank. Is it material from the flywheel, or is is grown into the crank. I know photos can make things look worse than they really are. Maybe there's a spec in the service manual for the size there. I probably can't be too much of a help except maybe touch up the surfaces and dry fit the fly wheel on the crank and see if the bolting it on will make it hold via friction. If not you'll probably have to replace the flywheel and/or crank. There's atleast a hope that it will work w\o replacing them though. Depends how much it bothers you. Pretty sure worst case it would sheer the key again.

    The other question is, how did the key sheer in the first place. Normally on like lawn mowers they are fairly hard to sheer. I've hit a stump before with a brigs and the key didn't sheer, but I don't think I've ever done that with a cast iron flywheel engine.

    Personally I'd probably just use a flat punch where you can see where the key is and knock it out. Not sure what method you used, but seems like it worked. The opposite side of it should be in the flywheel, probably the same process, hit the edge of it and knock it out. Just careful of the steel surfaces.

    I might have a 200es parts engine, I can't recall for sure though. The output shaft would be shaft drive, but the rest should be more or less the same. Could look up honda part numbers to validate interchange fairly well too if it came down to it.
    I just ordered a new woodruff key and I was missing a washer on one of the idle gears so ordered that too. I was hoping that key may have had something to do with the timing being off but I guess not. I've just been wondering why this thing started for a few minute, then died and lost spark. At first it was the killswitch being in awful shape and it was loose and would move from RUN to OFF, so I cut if off and both wires are now exposed (not touching), so this shouldn't be the problem. The trike did not have a starter button when bought. Now I am thinking neutral switch could have been bad, how can I bypass this? I saw on another thread that the CDI looks for this for engine to start.

    I'd like to just get this wired simply like my ATC200, where I think the only grounds are at ignition coil, and coming out of stator to be able to get spark. This 200E has wires near the battery, and relays/fuses it looks like. I'd love to just bypass all that so it runs like a regular 200 off the stator, and without worries from neutral switch being faulty. Does anyone have the wires memorized and can explain what I could do? Thanks for the help!

  11. #41
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    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    Your machine is nothing like the 250es in the other thread. The safety system is also very different from the 200ES. No need to memorize wire diagrams, just download a free manual from the site below lol.

    http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

    Anyway the CDI has no safety system, so it should be possible to manual pull start it in any gear and have it fire up (never owned this machine). Electric start grounds though the starter switch then though the neutral safety switch. There's no neutral light, so if you really wanted you could just solid ground the neutral wire (light green/red) to the engine/frame/green wire to bypass that feature. The hot side of the solenoid runs though the ignition switch then the fuse near the battery. The fuse wiring that goes together at the battery cable seems to fail quite often. When that wire breaks, you loose all lights etc off battery power, same thing if the fuse is blown.

    Note, make sure you don't ground the normal green/red wire or the electric start will kick on when you turn the key on lol.
    Last edited by ps2fixer; 01-26-2019 at 12:08 AM.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
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    Trike is still not up and running. The cylinder head assembly (part 12000-427-010) is for the '83 ATC200E, '84 200ES, and '84 TRX200, and many others. My cylinder head had a valve adjustment screw that I couldn't get off, so I ordered a used TRX200 one. Bolted it on, and the cam won't turn freely back and forth when torqued like it does with my old one. Do y'all know the difference between the 427A or 427D stamps when they are the same part number as in the pictures? My old one was 427A, I guess I'll have to order that exact same one. I only see very tiny tiny differences between the two, and the semi-circles look the same where the cam sits.


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  13. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    CT
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    206
    They look so close from the pics. So you think it's binding the cam? Did you back off the valve adjusters? Are you using the correct gasket, or RTV?

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Atlanta
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    111
    Yeah it's definitely binding the cam. They look identical, the rockers are completely backed off, and I used threebond but removed it after the cam wouldn't spin. It's so strange that my old head cover will torque right up and cam spins but this other one has issues. At this point I'd just order another used one but I'm nervous I'll have the same issue because these parts supposedly interchange!

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    From my understanding, the 84 TRX200 is more or less the same engine as the 84 ATC200ES engine, so many things interchange between those machines. For 200E vs 200ES I'd think the top ends are the same too, so that's weird that you have fitment problems.

    Does either valve cover have scoring? Also did you add oil to the wear surfaces when you assembled? Only thing I can think of is to put the cam in the valve cover and see if it goes all the way in or not.

    I never looked into the cashing numbers, but there's no way 200k+ machines were made off a single mold, so I'd assume the A,B,C,D are just the same mold from different era's. Is the TRX one the D mold?

    Also, the cam on it's own is the exact same part number, so unless the wrong part was sold to you it should fit just fine. I suspect something else is going on, a build up on one or something. The cam works in more or less every ATC200 cc engine, only one not listed is the 200x, but I think it was just a more aggressive cam profile.

    I'd say mess around with a bit more before giving up on the valve cover. Also, since your valve cover would be worn to your cam, maybe it's best to just replace the single rocker arm that you can't get loose, and keep the trx valve cover for parts encase you have issues down the road again.

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