Assembly lube and wet clutch??

[BarnBoy]

Bought some Federal Mogul assembly lube....then got to thinking that it might affect the clutch? I know with oil certain types are not wet clutch compatible...not sure if assembly lube would be an issue. Would only be in there for the first start up or 2 before the oil is changed.

[350for350]

I'm not sure, but I don't think that I'd chance it.

[barnett468]

I would use it lightly, meaning don't drench the parts in it, but I would not use it on the piston or rings etc. It will not hurt your clutch.

I also prefer to use dedicated break in oil for break ins, but no matter what you use for break in, I would not use synthetic oil but some people do.

[BarnBoy]

But it should be ok to use on the gears and transmission shafts/bearings? And cam? Just a light coating is what I would think it needs....just something to provide lube on the first start up. Would try and prime oil pump as well.

I assume just 30wt non detergent engine oil would be fine for the rest of the parts? Piston/rings too?

Definitely won't use synthetic oil....probably break in on some of the Valvoline 10w30 I've got left. Gonna get changed pretty quick anyway.

[barnett468]

But it should be ok to use on the gears and transmission shafts/bearings? And cam? Just a light coating is what I would think it needs....just something to provide lube on the first start up. Would try and prime oil pump as well.

I assume just 30wt non detergent engine oil would be fine for the rest of the parts? Piston/rings too?

Definitely won't use synthetic oil....probably break in on some of the Valvoline 10w30 I've got left. Gonna get changed pretty quick anyway.

i don't use it on gears.

valvoline 10w30 is not break in oil, and unless it has at least 1250 ppm of zddp, i wouldn't use it for break in and even that amount is less than i use. the valvoline racing oil has around 1250, but the off road racing oil would be better for break in due to the lower detergent levels in it, but i would use joe gibbs break in oil or add some zddp to non break in oil at the very least. i fail to see the logic of going thru all the time, trouble, and expense of completely rebuilding an engine and then breaking it in on oil that is less than optimal, but that's just me.

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[BarnBoy]

i don't use it on gears.

valvoline 10w30 is not break in oil, and unless it has at least 1250 ppm of zddp, i wouldn't use it for break in and even that amount is less than i use. the valvoline racing oil has around 1250, but the off road racing oil would be better for break in due to the lower detergent levels in it, but i would use joe gibbs break in oil or add some zddp to non break in oil at the very least. i fail to see the logic of going thru all the time, trouble, and expense of completely rebuilding an engine and then breaking it in on oil that is less than optimal, but that's just me.

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Ok. I'll just use it sparingly on bearing surfaces of gears, shafts, etc but not on the gears themselves. I noticed that my new OEM Honda crank bearings come packed with some kind of grease. Is it ok to leave this in there? Makes them spin kinda stiff.

Missed the part re: dedicated break in oil. Understood, I will do. What is zddp and why is it important? Just curious. Is zddp levels the main difference between break in oil and "regular" oil?

[Scootertrash]

Before I start any fresh rebuilt engine, I take out the spark plug, put the proper size socket for the nut on the crankshaft that holds the rotor on, and spin the engine over with a drill until oil reaches the rockers. Might be a little anal retentive, but at least I know for sure the top end has oil.

YMMV, carry on.

[El Camexican]

I'm not big on assembly lube, but I do recommend KY for all shafts and bores.

[Scootertrash]

Whats really anal retentive........is not getting back to fabs on the global warming issue..........flim flam man

Jesus Cripes, I take a little break from wrenching on my Skidsteer to grab a bite to eat and I make a quick short post. I needed the skidsteer to plow the incoming 8-12 inches of snow that was coming. How's that for feckin global warming?

[wonderboy]

What is zddp and why is it important? Just curious. Is zddp levels the main difference between break in oil and "regular" oil?

The ZDDP is zinc dithiophosphate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate . It is an additive that used to be in the older oil formulations, but has been removed from most automotive oils today due to the risk of contaminating your catalytic converter (on your car). The ZDDP is a very good high pressure lubricant. It is very important for the camshaft of our ATV engines since there is no roller lifter like most cars have today.

You can buy additives that include ZDDP and add it to regular automotive oil, or look for an oil meant for non-road use (there are several brands now marketed for motorcycles, ATVs, race cars, etc). You'll see ZDDP mentioned right on the label of many of these. Pick a brand you like and go for it.

[barnett468]

The ZDDP is zinc dithiophosphate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate . It is an additive that used to be in the older oil formulations, but has been removed from most automotive oils today due to the risk of contaminating your catalytic converter (on your car). The ZDDP is a very good high pressure lubricant. It is very important for the camshaft of our ATV engines since there is no roller lifter like most cars have today.

I am unaware of any automotive engine oil that does not contain ZDDP and/or ZDDB, and I am familiar with several of them but not all of them.

Below is a list of the engine oils produced by MOBIL 1, which is one of he biggest oil "mfg's" in the world, and every single one of their oils have ZDDP. The current maximum allowable limit of ZDDP in oil in the US to get the government "catalytic converter approved" certification is 800 ppm, which is why the lowest level of ZDDP you see in MOBIL 1's chart is 800. ZDDB is a newer anti wear additive that was designed to replace ZDDP because it does not contaminate the catalytic converters as much as ZDDP when the same amount of it is used in place of ZDDP.

As far as I am aware, there is no government limit for the amount of ZDDB that an engine oil specified for catalytic converters can contain, but I doubt an oil "mfg" would get the government "catalytic converter approved" certification for an oil if it contained more than 800 ppm of ZDDB, however, my guess is that if enough oil "mfg's" substitute ZDDB for ZDDP, the government will create a new certification for oils with this new additive to be used in catalytic converter cars, and that the amount of ZDDB they will allow will be higher than the amount of ZDDP they currently allow because ZDDB does not contaminate the catalytic converters as much overall as ZDDP does, which in theory means that a higher level of ZDDB can be used to somewhat "equal" the contamination level/rate of ZDDP.

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...pecs-guide.pdf

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[wonderboy]

Hey Barnett,

You're correct, the zinc and phosphorus aren't eliminated, but they have been reduced as the newer API specs (not the feds) have been released over the years. This site https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2012/1...older-engines/ (I trust them) talks about the change from API Spec level SJ to SL to SM. The maximum zinc levels dropped from 1280 ppm, to 1182 ppm, and 939 ppm respectively. It doesn't talk about the levels prior to SJ.

For sure, not all oil will have an API rating so they won't be bound by those limits, but I think most basic oils will adhere to the API specs since most OEMs in the auto industry recommend only using API certified oils. I use one of the oils that doesn't carry the API seal, but its from one of the big name brand manufacturers labeled as 4 stroke motorcycle oil. Their MSDS calls out Zinc levels of 1120 PPM and Phosphorus of 1000 PPM.

Here is some more info on the API ratings over the years (I found this interesting): https://www.api.org/~/media/Files/Ce...DE_062918_.pdf

The 350x Owner's manual specifically mentions to use oil rated at API SE or SF. So, I use what I do just for a little more piece of mind and hopefully a bit more protection.

[barnett468]

Hey Barnett,

You're correct,

Yes...I know.

the zinc and phosphorus aren't eliminated, but they have been reduced as the newer API specs (not the feds)

The ZDDP level is absolutely ultimately regulated by the federal government.

I use one of the oils that doesn't carry the API seal, but its from one of the big name brand manufacturers labeled as 4 stroke motorcycle oil. Their MSDS calls out Zinc levels of 1120 PPM and Phosphorus of 1000 PPM.

That is the bare bones minimum level of ZDDP that should be used in an off road motorcycle etc, and it should only be used in a basic run around vehicle, and not one that will be flogged hard, especially when it is hot outdoors.

The 350x Owner's manual specifically mentions to use oil rated at API SE or SF. So, I use what I do just for a little more piece of mind and hopefully a bit more protection.

Some oils are marketed as being "backwards" compatible with earlier specs, so in theory, you can use a later spec oil that is backwards compatible with either of those mentioned by honda and theoretically still be safe, but that's another topic.

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