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Thread: 1987 250ES stalls when put into gear

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    South Dakota
    --
    248

    1987 250ES stalls when put into gear

    A while back I posted about a 250es with no spark, well my friend who owns this machine ordered a new CDI (think he paid like $8, i told him to get a nicer more expensive one that would be better made, here is what he ordered- https://www.ebay.com/itm/CDI-Box-For...EAAOSwk1haIFmX ) and it fired right up. We let it warm up for about 5 minutes and then decided to try and put it into gear. It stalled immediately, at first we thought maybe the clutches were bad but eventually found that when put into gear (even reverse) it loses spark. Maybe I was wrong in my first post about this trike when i said that the neutral safety is good. I assumed it was because the neutral light worked correctly. The electric starter does not work either, so that is what is leading me in the direction of a safety switch. One of my friends suggested the carb was gunked up, but it ran well and revved up responsively, but it is apart and soaking in my "special sauce" parts cleaner.


    I have also been recently told that this 87 is a rare beast can somebody elaborate on that? My buddy might have some other rare ones at his farm, there is like 10 other 3 wheelers. ATC 70,90, 110, 125, 185,a few 200s (some big reds), and a really complete 86 big red. I'll have to post pictures and updates about these other when we get them running.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    stonecreek ohio usa
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    654
    The 87 big red was a low production number bike. I wanna say it was less than 4000 units made. I got a really clean 87 red my self. I'm not sure about your bike issue though. Somebody with more knowledge than me will chime in.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    NEPA
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    7,048
    I've never delved into those boxes. But it wants another ground since it is dying off the neutral and reverse switch. Ps2fixer will weigh in. I am sure he has this and way more covered. After you get it squared away,report back on longetivity of your box please.
    Please help those who cannot help themselves.

    ALWAYS buying Museum quality machines,3 and 4 wheels. And any and ALL ,NOS parts,EVERY brand.

    I am turning my PM's Off,my Email is billsracing@hotmail.com,put 3WW in the subject. Thanx!

    Gun laws do not stop criminals. BULLETS do.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    South Dakota
    --
    248
    This 87 is pretty beat. We are getting it going just for riding because the plastics are almost nom existent.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas
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    1,359
    Pilot circuit is to lean. Make sure the pilot jet is clean and the entire circuit is clean. Back the fuel screw out to about 1 1/2 turns.

    Was a carb kit ever installed? Those come with jets too small.
    I just wanna go fast. If your not first, your last!!
    Reproducing the Tecate CDI. Contact me if you need one. I'm most accessible on FaceBook. You can find me on the 1984-1987 Kawasaki Tecate KXT250 Group.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    South Dakota
    --
    248
    No, the carb is at home soaking in cleaner so i can re-assemble it when i get home, but when i removed and took it apart, the jets were pretty bad. I have worked on many other atvs and bikes with clogged carbs, but never had one lose spark when put into gear like this one.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas
    --
    1,359
    Was taking a stab with the carb being lean. Not to familiar with this trike. I'd check out the manual review the wiring schematic at that point. I assume it's the same as the 86.
    I just wanna go fast. If your not first, your last!!
    Reproducing the Tecate CDI. Contact me if you need one. I'm most accessible on FaceBook. You can find me on the 1984-1987 Kawasaki Tecate KXT250 Group.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    South Dakota
    --
    248
    i know this thread is kinda old now, but i wanted to report back on the cheap CDI box, it has not had issues since. We got it to work by grounding the neutral safety wire directly to the frame. We have taken this thing in deep water, mud, and he has used it on his farm. It starts easy with the kick start, so i think the timing curve is really close to correct. It has no rev limiter, so speed is increased but might be the bigger jets and less restrictive exhaust. So i would say that if you need to to get one running, they will work, but the neutral safety will not work.
    Currently : trx400fw, ct70, 250es,200x, xl80s, 350x, 350x, 225DX, trx300

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
    --
    4,114
    Not sure how I missed this thread.

    Generally with these aftermarket CDI's the neutral light gets stuck on because it grounds through the CDI box, atleast that's the case with Mike's CDI's and a few Chinese aftermarket ones I've helped people with. The neutral light is a great indicator if the neutral safety is working correctly and it shows exactly what the CDI sees (OEM it's required to be grounded to start, not sure about this aftermarket one, generally they have no safety system). The neutral safety is also the ground location for the starter solenoid to function. Normally the aftermarket CDI effect isn't a problem, just annoying with the light always on and the machine can be cranked while in gear when the light is on, but maybe yours is different?

    Since you mentioned the electric start doesn't work here's some more info on that.

    At the starter solenoid, there's a yellow/red wire which is the "hot" wire that activates the solenoid. That wire goes directly to the starter button and in the handle bar control harness it draws power from the same wire that the lights get their power from, so if lights work then the power should be good up to that point.

    If you have a multi meter, you can test the starter button by testing in ohms or beep mode between the yellow/red wire and black/brown wire coming out of the handle bar controls. Should show shorted connection when pressed, and no connection when released. If the starter button tests good, we could go with more multi meter testing, or have you remove the solenoid and bench test it for function, be sure to disconnect the battery so no accidental shorts.

    Assuming lights work, pretty much it's the starter button, starter solenoid, wiring, or starter.



    For the neutral wire being grounded, was the sub harness trashed? Not to spam my advertising, but I make replacements if you wanted normal functionality. That's assuming the actual neutral switch is working fine which I don't think they tend to go bad often. I'm pretty sure the wiring goes bad more often than the switches.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/201749831957


    Anyway, for the CDI, sadly there's no standardized number on it. They posted a UPC but the ebay listing is the only thing that comes up. That means to get that exact CDI, you have to buy it from that exact seller/listing. Generally speaking, the aftermarket CDI's have a generic ignition curve. If done right, it should run fine, just won't run as good as it could run, basically perfect for a rider. If it's done wrong, it could advance too fast and not run right, but it sounds like that's not the case with this one. I haven't toyed around with the micro controller stuff enough, but I really do want to build a CDI tester/reader to simulate the signals to make a CDI fire, and record the timing difference etc. Then I could just get the same CDI, test it and compare how close it is to stock and get "real" answers on if it's a good match or not, no guessing =). Price isn't always everything, longevity would be my main concern with the CDI, mainly solder quality and the internal capacitor(s) and how well it's water/weather proofed. For a chinese CDI, $8 isn't cheap, they normally run $2-5, but ebay fees and such I suspect it's similar to a $5 one.

    Hopefully this gets you on the right track to get the electric start working. I'm subbed to the thread so I'll see reply's now.



    EDIT:

    Oh I think I know what might be going on, the aftermarket CDI is poorly built/designed and/or defective. It probably isn't sensing the engine is running, so when it's not in neutral, it kills spark. For others, it might be better to get a different China CDI and try one that doesn't have the safety system built into it or stick with known good brands/oem unless you don't mind modding your harness to work around the flaw.
    Last edited by ps2fixer; 12-13-2019 at 02:56 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    South Dakota
    --
    248
    ps2fixer, i know how you missed this thread when i started it- i directly messaged you bout the issue. The starter not working is pretty simple, the switch at the handlebars is not connected and we run nearly everything without a battery. When we grounded the neutral safety it allowed the neutral light to always be on....i think it had issues with the neutral switch because it was made to work on multiple different machines, some of which might use different way of signalling the transmission is in neutral. I know the neutral switch works, because when a battery was hooked to the bike (when trying to trouble shoot the original no spark issue), the neutral and reverse lights both worked as they should. On another note, this machine has been to hell and back. It was run with no air box (or filter) in the muddy/rainy spring we had here, then it got left to sit for a month (again completely exposed) but i put a lot of time into for the owner recently and got everything in good order) airbox, filter, oil changed, and a few other things. i think it now is able to go back to work for another 30+ years.

    The bottom line-
    Find an OEM CDI if you can. Chinese ones work, but not perfectly.
    Currently : trx400fw, ct70, 250es,200x, xl80s, 350x, 350x, 225DX, trx300

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
    --
    4,114
    Ahh I see, that might have been why lol.

    The neutral switch is really just a basic switch, when it's in neutral, it's "on", kind of light a light switch in a house. There is also a diode relating to the circuit (Honda calls it a rectifier), I don't fully understand why it's there but it relates to the neutral light or CDI box and is common in several Honda machines, not 100% sure what would happen if it failed or was missing/direct wired. My guess is it relates to the CDI and how it senses when the neutral switch is activated, like maybe it would get a false reading with out the diode.

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