Using a battery charger will screw with ignition system. I’ve been there done that. Using jumper cables and a battery is the better way to go. And like has been said CDI’s are known to be bad on these bikes
Using a battery charger will screw with ignition system. I’ve been there done that. Using jumper cables and a battery is the better way to go. And like has been said CDI’s are known to be bad on these bikes
If its on the internet its got to be true they can't put any lie's on the internet
That sucks about the CDI's being known to be bad, but even the Honda ones are failing quite often. Capacitors aren't really meant to last like 35 years though, their normal life is like 20 years for a good brand, like 3-5 years for the crappy ones, aka most the modern tvs and cheaper larger electronics any more. I'd rather buy a high end computer monitor than something marketed as a tv any more. Hook ups are effectively the same, just might not have built in speakers which sound horrible anyway.
I've done a bit of the CDI testing stuff on the Honda machines, all of them are AC based CDI systems, this machine appears to be DC which I'm not used to working with. If I had access to a running machine to validate how exactly the wiring was setup and such, I could probably find some Chinese knock off CDI that would make the spark plug fire, who knows if the timing would be right or not though. I've poked at the idea of building CDI's from nothing, but haven't had time to learn more on the electronics side of things and get a bare bones test model built. If I ever do, I'll defo remember Kawi and the other brand of machines, but first target is Honda since I understand them the best and of course they have a huge market.
BTW, it was asked before if the CDI is repairable, the answer would be yes, but it's going to take someone that understands how to repair something at the circuit board level, and most are epoxy filled, so a real nightmare just to get to the board. It's probably easier to find a NOS one than someone that would be able to repair it, and I'm sure there isn't many NOS ones out there. I've toyed with that stuff a bit and took a Chinese CDI apart, but I basically had to it apart and I killed it at the same time.
Yeah I figured I probably shouldn't hear anything lol.
I haven't checked for power to the light, but with the bike in neutral and jumper cables hooked up to the battery cables none of the electrics worked. Only way I cranked it was by putting 12v directly to the starter.
I'm actually low key impressed with the electrical connections I've messed with so far. They are so freaking tight that it's a real pain to unplug, but when you do they look brand new. That said I have only messed with a few of them. But yes, I think it sat for a very long time.
I found some cheap @ $30 Chinese CDI that said it worked with the klt250 and ktm300. Might be work a shot??? IDK.
1984 HONDA ATC200M - OG, mid-restoration
1981 HONDA ATC200 - future build
1981 HONDA ATC185S - parts
1984 ATC200X - roller, future build
1984 Honda ATC250r - in a million pieces- ISO grab bar, PM if you have one
Da velder
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Dumb thing doesn't even have a dipstick lol. Just a fill plug and a sight glass on the clutch case. Honestly I'm impressed thus far at the engine condition. It doesn't have that much time on it really, no signs of oil leaks, etc. Spark plug looked very good, little bit of carbon but very good considering. Had 110 psi when I tested compression, before doing anything. Put some ATF in there and it's settled right around 140 psi. Oil should help free things up. I can see both valves moving no problem. Also they look pretty clean through the spark plug hole.
I'd put money on it firing right up with spark. I've messed with a lot of small engines and this is in better shape than a bunch I've got going again.
Yeah, as far as fixing to 100%....depends on the bike. I've got a 200M I'm doing that to, but it's been in my family since new so it's sentimental. For $200 I'll get er running as cheap as possible, fix what it really needs, throw some cheap tires on and send it. If it turns out good maybe put some more time into it and make it nicer. It's supposed to be a low budget trike to mess around with.
I'd almost wager it won't need rings.....but it's definitely possible. Compression did go up with oil. But there are.no signs of burning oil at all. Will have to see when running. I wonder if I could even get rings still?
Yeah sadly there's not much info out there on these bikes, but hopefully I'll be able to find everything I need. Appreciate the help from this site.
1984 HONDA ATC200M - OG, mid-restoration
1981 HONDA ATC200 - future build
1981 HONDA ATC185S - parts
1984 ATC200X - roller, future build
1984 Honda ATC250r - in a million pieces- ISO grab bar, PM if you have one
Da velder
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http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ck-for-Barnboy
You'd just need the sizes for the rings, there's plenty of aftermarket companies out there that make rings to have the size you need. The test for bad rings is dry compression test, then add a little oil, if there's a large difference, then the rings are bad. Basically the oil is filling in the gap and making the compression come up because of the better seal. I suspect new the engine was around 150-160psi or so, it's quite a high compression engine at 9.3:1. The 350x for example is what I'd call sport/high output, and it's only 8.5:1 compression and compression test spec for it is 178psi.
Engines will run on like 90psi compression, that's like 7:1 or something (lot of factors but you get my point). Compression sort of translates into power, if you're leaking, you're not seeing the potential the engine has to go once it is running. Normally compression specs are around 10-15psi +/-, so 110 to 140 is 30, clearly it's out of spec unless you put a lot of atv in and it's taking up all the air room (the wet test is just enough to get the rings wet).
I'm sure if you get the electrical sorted it will fire up and run pretty well too, just when things get opened up, problems sometimes show their face, if you don't look, it doesn't make it go away, it just stops the fun unexpectedly.
I hope it doesn't have a broken ring, I had a suzuki 4 stroke motorcycle with a broken ring, thing smoked as much as a 2 stroke lol. You don't happen to have a bore scope, or bore camera do you? Could check the cylinder walls to see if you can see any wear spots. I'd assume it's just normal ring wear though. 1700 miles seems pretty low, but who knows what kind of miles they were, road miles is like nothing, but if it was all in muddy trails, it might be plumb worn out. I suspect it's probably pretty good overall though, just sat way too long and low compression besides the electrical.
Also, low compression doesn't directly mean burning oil, and an engine can burn oil and not build up a massive carbon buildup on the spark plug if it's tuned well. My oil burning 350x engine had a clean spark plug, while tight 200ES engines that don't smoke are carboned up so bad the plug is fouled (too much gas in the mix).
Anyway, I suspect your engine is a bit more similar to a 200x, which is 9.6:1 compression and compression test spec is 164psi, the opposite end of the same basic engine design, a atc185 is 8:1 compression and spec is 156psi + or - 14 (so min is 142 according to the spec).
ATF is a good cleaning agent for engines, some people like to add a qt to their engine oil to clean the engine out. Same with the gas tank, it helps clean the injectors and such, not sure if it's O2 sensor safe though. If you run across an engine that's locked up, diesel works well to penetrate and mix a little atf for lub should do well. Sounds like your valves and such are working fine though since the compression test came back with something high enough to run with.
Sorry I missed this post lol. Yeah I want to get it running first and then decide if it needs rings. I do have a decent multimeter and a pretty decent understanding of how to use it. I do not actually have a battery in it....I wonder if that might be part of my problem??? Thought thenspark was triggered by the stator like my Hondas.
Sorry if I repeated stuff you mentioned in my later posts, somehow skipped over this one lol.
1984 HONDA ATC200M - OG, mid-restoration
1981 HONDA ATC200 - future build
1981 HONDA ATC185S - parts
1984 ATC200X - roller, future build
1984 Honda ATC250r - in a million pieces- ISO grab bar, PM if you have one
Da velder
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Yea not a prob lol.
I know some DC systems can't be started with out a battery, while others do fine. Pretty sure all Honda 3 wheelers are AC based, so runs directly off the exciter coil, so none require a battery to run.
I'd be interested to get some readings of different parts so I can document function better when I make a new wire diagram for your machine. I'm pretty sure I have a main harness already, just the plug in stuff I wouldn't have to document well. I'd document the electrical similar to the Honda wire diagram style. Check out one of the Honda diagrams on http://atvmanual.com to see what they turn out like (so far at least). I haven't figured out a good way to mark stripes evenly and somewhat automated but I'll figure something out some time I'm sure.
Interesting. I will have to buy a battery to put in and then try again. Bad thing is I'm out of town for the next little bit so it's gonna be a while before I get back to working on it.
My ignition coil measured 2.9 ohms on the primary coil, and 12k ohms on the secondary coil. Both mid spec. In case that's of any use to you.
It's a weird bike, because it's got an unlockable rear diff, manual clutch, electric start only, and the shift pattern is 1-N-2-3-4-5. Hoping it turns out alright, and I can find parts. I think it'd be a cool bike just to rip around on. Seems pretty simple but I'll have to clean up the electrical on it.
1984 HONDA ATC200M - OG, mid-restoration
1981 HONDA ATC200 - future build
1981 HONDA ATC185S - parts
1984 ATC200X - roller, future build
1984 Honda ATC250r - in a million pieces- ISO grab bar, PM if you have one
Da velder
_______________________________________________
Feedback:
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ck-for-Barnboy
.
I would use some dielectric grease when reconnecting the wire connectors.
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Not really a problem, just don't forget about us lol.
Also for the battery, you can use jumper cables hooked to a car battery. Just make sure to hook it up right, and keep the positive cable from touching any other metal so it doesn't short out. Don't need to start the vehicle or anything unless you do a lot of cranking. Big batteries don't damage anything, just more capacity for more cranking and such. That's what I'd do at least.
If there's an old junk battery in it, you could use that to hold the cables and such, just pay attention to it at first as it will try to charge. Depending how the battery failed, there's a small chance it could be internally shorted and could be bad results. Any bubbling or boiling disconnect it and stay clear from the area for a while. You could also disconnect the ground side and hooked the neg to the frame/engine/foot peg and the positive to the battery so the battery isn't actually part of the circuit.
I think the wheelie king used that model of machine, or transplanted that rear end into a honda or something. Let me dig up the video lol. He did wheelies in a line, but then could turn the steering wheel and turn the machine, he had two brake master cylinders on the steering, and each side controlled a disk brake on each rear half shaft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVdNkycMQKw
Ah makes sense. Some parts might interchange, no? Might make life a little easier?. Will get some dielectric grease as well.
1984 HONDA ATC200M - OG, mid-restoration
1981 HONDA ATC200 - future build
1981 HONDA ATC185S - parts
1984 ATC200X - roller, future build
1984 Honda ATC250r - in a million pieces- ISO grab bar, PM if you have one
Da velder
_______________________________________________
Feedback:
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ck-for-Barnboy
No fear of that haha. Will def report in when I get back.
It had no battery in it when I got it. I tried the jumper cable trick...no dice. Course the headlight switch is stuck so I cant test it, but starter button didn't work, and neutral light didn't light up. Haven't done any further tests.
I will check out the vid! Thanks!
Oh yeah, dug up this old post here on the board. Thought it was interesting re: CDI. Thoughts?
Last edited by BarnBoy; 05-22-2019 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Barnett I don't know how you do it without the edit button, but I couldn't live without it lol
1984 HONDA ATC200M - OG, mid-restoration
1981 HONDA ATC200 - future build
1981 HONDA ATC185S - parts
1984 ATC200X - roller, future build
1984 Honda ATC250r - in a million pieces- ISO grab bar, PM if you have one
Da velder
_______________________________________________
Feedback:
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ck-for-Barnboy
I should mention, I fully support the dielectric grease too, great stuff to make connections water resistant and somewhat weather proof. Doesn't harm rubbers or plastics etc and it's a bit of a lube, so handy when installing some rubber mounted tail lights, or seating new tires on rims etc.
I'm kind of a Honda fanboy, so don't have the experience with Suzuki either lol. The mention of the 12v DC power supports what I was thinking with the wire diagram though. Really pretty much any generic DC CDI *should* work, but the CDI also can have an ignition timing curve that can vary greatly machine to machine. Never hurts to try though if the price is right :P. If I saw the connector for your CDI and the Suzuki CDI, I could let you know if I could make an adapter or not, so no hacking up harnesses and such. I'd also need to somehow get the pinout for both connectors too, like +12v, ground, pulse generator (2 pins), and coil trigger wire.
The extreme basics of a CDI boils down mainly to AC or DC, there's also the safety systems that really can act weird.
Didn't know the Wheelie King was from Michigan, I think I might have seen him once, but not super sure. Either case, the guy has a talent for wheelies for sure. I do ok, but nothing like that guy. It's a long vid, but pretty interesting too. I remember his carb on his 3 wheeler was mounted at an angle so when he's doing a wheelie, it sat normal because that was "normal" for him lol.
Ok good to know. Attached a pic of the connector on my CDI. Like I said earlier, I found a cheapo (well still $30-40) cdi on Amazon that looks like it should work. I'll see if I can post a link.
I've not gotten that good at riding a wheelie, at least not good enough to keep it going like some of these guys. I've heard that wheelie-ing can be detrimental to the engine if you sit there and ride them for miles like some people do. Something to do with cam and tappet lubrication. IDK...haven't had first hand experience.
1984 HONDA ATC200M - OG, mid-restoration
1981 HONDA ATC200 - future build
1981 HONDA ATC185S - parts
1984 ATC200X - roller, future build
1984 Honda ATC250r - in a million pieces- ISO grab bar, PM if you have one
Da velder
_______________________________________________
Feedback:
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthr...ck-for-Barnboy