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Thread: 350x wiring question(s)

  1. #1
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    Aug 2015
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    777

    350x wiring question(s)

    What size are the wires to the stator? The manual states 200w, so I知 thinking 12awg but not sure. I知 pulling about 150w (momentarily) and wondering if that would cause a melt down, eventually.

  2. #2
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    Standard wire harness wiring is 18 gauge. One thing to keep in mind, the general wire size suggestions for x size wire doesn't apply so much in wire harnesses as length is a huge factor too when it's 10ft and less. Anyway, at the high end, 200w/12v = 16.67amps. The actual stator wire for the coils are likely around 22-20 gauge.

    I'm not super sure what the typical acceptable voltage loss is on this era of machine, but 5% seems to give the 18 gauge output for 3ft wire length. 18 gauge comes up for a max length of 5ft before it jumps up to 16 gauge. I'm not sure what OEM Honda wire is rated at, I suspect it's likely 105c though. The wire I use is 125c rated.






    Here's the page if you want to mess around with the numbers. It's kind of annoying to use to change values though.

    http://circuitwizard.bluesea.com/

    Even though the alternator was designed to put out 200w, the wiring is a bit on the light side to pull the full amperage. I think 150w (12.5amp) is fine though. On more modern machines Honda typically used 14 gauge wire for anything powered off the battery, this included the atc250es/sx which are also rated for 200w alternator, but the battery clearly can put out more. Fused at the battery is 20amp on the 250es, and 15amp on the 250sx and the wire has a longer run (battery to ignition switch, to sub fuses by the headlight, then to aux plug, lights, starter solenoid, etc for the 250es).The latest machines with the most output might run 12 gauge wiring, not much experience with them though.

    Anyway, assuming you're not extending the wires any longer than needed, you should be fine with stock wiring. FYI, there's no fuses in the system on the 350x, and the stock lights were around 75W total draw (well max was 36.5*2 + 5w, so 78w). If you want to be 100% sure, I could make a "Y" splitter at the stator connector and run a 14 gauge wire to the handle bar controls with another Y splitter to basically add the 14 gauge wire in with the 18 gauge wire so there's 100% no problems. I could make a harness with heavier power/ground wires too, but I don't have white/yellow in 14 gauge. You'd have to mod the wiring or send me your handle bar controls to up the wire size in that unless you're tapping into the power before the light switches. In stock form the voltage regulator should be draining the excess power off the alternator and it's similar length from the stator as the head light controls.

    I haven't measured the max output of the 350x stator, but I'd assume the 200w is accurate, the newer trx250r machines were rated around 160w with a similar looking voltage regulator.

    Also note, even though it's a 12v system, the running voltage at max output would likely be more in the 13.5-14.5v which makes the total amps slightly less.

  3. #3
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    Hey Cory, I was hoping it could handle high/low beams at the same time, for more than a few minutes, without changing anything. The lights are perfect with the switch right in between. Might just go with led then, because either high or low are just mediocre. If 12.5 amp would require 16awg, it sounds like the harness wiring is too small. Thanks for the info

  4. #4
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    No problem, another tip if the bulbs are OEM or very old, try some new bulbs, they get dim with years of use, same with your car/truck etc.

    LED is a bit of a special situation and opens another can of worms. The 350x generates AC power, and like a LED tail light would be fine since it's just a basic resister to filter the power, but for the LED light bars they are generally powered by what's called a current driver. Current drivers are designed for DC power. It will likely work on the AC power, but at low rpm it will likely flicker and the power supply might create more heat because of the "dirty" power. If you get a rectifier for it to convert AC to "Full Wave Rectified DC", then the flicker effect happens twice as fast and the power supply might do better since the capacitors inside would keep charged better. The full proper setup is full wave rectifier + small battery.

    Another catcher about all of this, finding a rectifier for the 350x is kind of a hard to find thing because the AC power is single phase, most machines that put out good wattage output like 200w and typically has a battery generally are 3 phase AC power.

    You could try one of those "Cob" style LED lights that fit in the headlight housing, they don't run off a current driver, but I suspect they wouldn't be much brighter than stock, but a lot less power usage.

    I'm currently not aware of any stator interchanges for the 350x to switch it to 3 phase or higher output. A stator rewind is possible and likely could be rewound to 3 phase and higher output if you wanted to go that route. I know of atleast one shop that does stator rewinds, ricky stators, but I'm not sure if that do custom stuff like that, or if they know of a solid source for a good regulator/rectifier. You could always just run the LED light and hope for the best, just be prepared encase the light fails or don't go on log trips till you can to test the light out well. Clearly some light power supplies are built better than others.

  5. #5
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    Would a capacitor work, in place of a battery? It would be easier to place behind the headlight. I知 thinking a handle bar mounted, led light (w/ bridge rectifier-diode-capacitor), that I could tap into the headlight harness wiring, after the oem headlights are disconnected.
    Here are bulbs listed for an x. I知 tempted to just try these. Not sure how they will work since it痴 the only model listed without a battery. Thoughts on these?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Bulbs-H...-/123212744989
    The moose are getting braver, so I壇 like to see them before I end up under them.

    I had the switch apart to find any markings and found none. It did look like 18, so that could be too small, for what I was doing.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #6
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    Capacitor should work, but I don't know about electronics well enough to know what size of capacitor is needed, but that's exactly how power supplies are built/designed, bridge rectifier (4 diodes) to get rectified DC, then a capacitor to get DC with a voltage ripple, and then they use less voltage than that lowest dip on the capacitor charge at the designed voltage, say 12v, but the capacitor charges up to 50v.

    The linked bulbs is one of the cob styles, 95% sure it's made of just LEDs and resisters. LED's don't care about the on/off cycles etc, just don't over current or over voltage them and they can last 5000-10000 hours (generally the driver fails before the LED unless designed wrong).

    For the light switches, I'm not sure what they are designed for, but Honda used the same switches for nearly every atv with minor changes. Highest light load I can think of would be like a 450 foreman with a ~60w headlight, 2x helper lights around 25w each, and the tail light 5-10w, so should be safe for ~10 amps or so.

    Also, if you go the capacitor route, be sure it's fairly high voltage rated. I'm not sure what the peak voltage is for the 350x stator, but I've had readings of 30+v testing a rectifier/regulator, clearly it wasn't regulating, cheap china junk.

    I suspect the simplest route is those LED lights you found, I just don't know if they will be brighter over stock. They would likely be a lot more "white" which you may or may not like. I personally like around 3000k-4000k (color temp) lights, much higher than that and it's too white/blue/violet. FYI, that ebay listing is a complete lie, no way those bulbs are 100w, or even 100w combined, there's not enough cooling for that (LEDs die from heat, voltage, or current). More than likely they are made in China, and if you can find the right source they are probably $5 or less.

    Searched around, here you go, same thing, same wild specs (80w instead of 100w), but under 10% the price. Also claiming 50,000 hour life which I'd assume isn't true, some high end LEDs might be rated that long though, but just the raw LEDs to make the light would cost more.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-New-Bul...cAAOSwe8ldbjid

    If you want it faster than the slow boat from china, here's the cheapest listing from the USA, which has more logical specs that look accurate and not a bunch of lies.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/P15D-H6M-8W...QAAOSwKpFddxWI

    8w sounds MUCH more logical, LEDs are around 10x more efficient then filament style bulbs, so it might be "like" 80w-100w bulbs. 6000K color temp is very white almost blueish, below is a color temp chart to get an idea. I really hate specs that don't make sense and personally avoid sellers promoting that kind of marketing.


    Here's a video of a real 100w led light, just to show the difference ... that guy is crazy though he wants 11?! That's 1100w of draw while the lights are on, his house would look like daylight though, probably be so bright it would be hard to sleep lol.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mtnXmqD2ys

  7. #7
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    Aug 2015
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    Idaho
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    Going back my meltdown question, there are two wires(brn & wht), behind the headlights. They are labeled ‘op’ in diagram, which I’m assuming means optional.? One is switch power and the other is constant power. What were these meant for? Also, the switch detail shows a middle position, labeled ‘n’.
    http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite...Xx85Thru86.jpg

  8. #8
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    You're right on the wiring, brown is power to the tail lights (on whenever headlights are on) and the white/yellow is direct from stator power.

    These were extra connectors not used in stock config for accessories. One Hondaline part that comes to mind is the speeometer, the backlight is powered off those connectors. Honda often added extra wires at the tail light as well for light whips/flags too.

  9. #9
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    Sounds good. I have a small led light bar I can try. It’ll run with the oem lights on high or low. Appreciate the help.

    Good catch on the 100w led lamps-that’s a joke. The lamps you linked would be a better experiment-IMO. Thanks! Also, w/o watching the video again, I think he said 11 of them are going on another building tomorrow. His led is also mounted close to the subject, compared the other, being on a 25’ or so pole. Not to mention 150w HP sodium aren’t really meant to be mounted that high.
    Edit: what’s a good source for 3.5 bullet connectors? No luck in town, here.

  10. #10
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    Yea connector terminals aren't normally available at typical box stores. I haven't had direct experience with the "insulated bullet terminals, but I'd suggest getting the OEM style ones and the proper crimper. Site I use for quite a lot of my connector needs is linked below.

    http://www.cycleterminal.com/

    Here's the page for the bullet terminals, the site can be a little weird to browse. Make sure you get 3.5mm and not the 3.9/4mm. The bigger ones were common on Yamaha and motorcycles and such.

    http://www.cycleterminal.com/bullet-terminals.html

    For LEDs, it's all about the lens/viewing angle for distances, related video was a truck with 18x of those 100w LEDs on it and he was lighting up mountains over 2 miles away lol. The HP sodium I'd assume is a really old bulb not putting out peak performance, my focus was on the LED anyway lol.

    Just for fun, here's that video of the 1800w led light bar truck. Not sure what his use case is to even need something like that, and how can he even stand to drive it down the road with the road signs blinding him lol.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pit33Lng2so

  11. #11
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    Aug 2015
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    777
    That F-1/dodge is incredible! Great information, thanks.

  12. #12
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    I tried a ac/dc converter good for 60w and it works. It’s small enough to hide behind headlight, too. 18watt light at idle doesn’t flicker at all. Click image for larger version. 

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    https://www.amazon.com/SMAKN%C2%AE-C.../dp/B00R5GO4YU

  13. #13
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    I assume you're running the stock voltage regulator yet? According to the specs on that amazon page, it's designed for 16-28v AC but your machine should be putting out around 13.5-14.5v AC. Probably close enough not to cause problems though, generally there's around a 10% tolerance on electronics. Reading some reviews, it sounds like the ~12v AC input ends up as about 9v DC output, so similar logic, 14v would drop to about 10.5v.

    According to what the seller says, it's a bridge rectifier (4 diodes to convert AC-> DC), then a DC to DC converter. Don't know much about the DC to DC converters, but the bridge rectifier should be around 1.4v drop (0.7v per diode). Assuming you have the voltage regulator still hooked up, just a bridge rectifier would probably work and have around 12.6v DC output.

    Anyway, just wanted to cover a couple things for potential readers so they don't assume the device is a voltage regulator as well (with no low and at cursing rpm it will probably burn up the DC to DC converter, the diodes are probably safe for 100v+).

    Also, since this has a full wave bridge rectifier in it, make sure the 350x's ground/green wire does not connect to the negative output of the device as it will cause a short inside the bridge rectifier.


    Sounds like you have a combo of parts that works for your situation, I'm sure you'll enjoy the LED lights, 18w LED light should be similar to atleast 72w of the typical headlight power, up to ~108w. Just using real world numbers, the LED lights in my house (cheap ones made in china but are actually branded) are 60w compareable bulbs and draw ~9w so it's around 6x more efficient. Under driving high quality LEDs you can hit around 10x more efficient power usage vs light output. Also pretty interesting, you're testing out 18w LED and those LED bulbs that goes into the stock 350x headlights are 8w each (16w total). I suspect they would have similar output. Once you get the light mounted up, let us know what you think of the light =).

  14. #14
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    Aug 2015
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    Yes, it’s got the stock regulator. Everything should be able to be connect behind headlight, without any additional wires, other than a couple pig tails. I’ll run a separate switch. I hooked it up to the ‘optional’ brown and the green the headlights are connected to and it works. Should it connect somewhere, else?
    The 18w is for my boys 70, now that I know this converter works. I plan to make something to hold a couple brighter ones for this.

  15. #15
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    I see, FYI the stock ATC70 has a 6v system and no voltage regulator (the load is the regulator if I recall correctly for the machines with the light kit). Headlight was only like 25w so it probably maxes out around 30w with the tail light too.

    The two optional connections at the brown and green should be just fine. The light will get power whenever the headlight switch is on which I suspect is how you want it to work. You could get fancy and make a small adapter to the blue wire (high beam) and wire the LED light to get power off that + the green wire so the normal headlights are on for dim, and on brights it powers the stock brights + led brights if you plan to still run both sets of lights. A simple inline switch would work fine too for controlling the LED light off the optional connections.

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