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Thread: 1984 200S Ignition Issues, No Spark

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Central Florida
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    13
    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    What do you mean a circuit? Like your meter is in beep mode and it beeps? If so that's normal, off = shorted between green and black/white, you want those wires NOT shorted together for run.

    I have the source switches on hand, just behind on things and having kept up on stock. I'll be sure the next one I make is that model though (currently make 6 versions).

    Ohm readings seem pretty normal, couple high ones, but I'm guessing it's a cheap meter, like one of those $5 special ebay meters from China. You can't fix them being inaccurate, but I've sanded mine down with 400grit paper for the two contacts per probe and readings became much more stable and I could get accurate low readings subtracting the probe to probe ohm test value from the test. In your case that would be 3 ohms from 10 for the ignition coil, but 7 is still higher than expected, same with the pickup coil, 32.5 and it should be upto 30. Guessing it's probably 5-10 ohms too high on those readings, not common for two parts to fail at once, and the readings are so close to spec I doubt they are bad, atleast with out heat playing a factor.

    Anyway, you had spark at one point, worst case you could disconnect the handle bar controls to remove the kill switch from the circuit, no connection is normal for run. Sadly not really a great way to kill the engine like this though. If it fires up, could always just hook up the handle bar controls again (black & green wires). Unless you have a poor connection somewhere, or a connector isn't pushed together all the way, I suspect it might be related to the kill switch.

    Also what kind of condition is your harness in? The rubber insulators should be pretty soft yet, none of the female terminals exposed to short out, and the wiring shouldn't be stiff/rock hard or have cracks/bare wire. Not really trying to market my products or anything, but if you need a harness I can add you to the request list, I'm behind on them though .

    It's best to change 1 variable at a time so we don't get compounded issues. Like get your current setup to spark again, and mess around with a couple connectors and retest, or fiddle with the kill switch etc and see what the common factor is when it gains/looses spark.
    xxxxxx
    Have been fiddling. Meter is an Extech and has Max Voltage button. Red/Black 20V AC, Yellow/Black: 2 V AC with a good strong pull, pulser: .02 V AC ??? What is to be expected out of pulser?
    I have cut and re-wired many and what I have not, I have tested with meter for continuity. The only wires that look bad are the wires for headlight and switch.

    So, the black/yellow having such low-output, not even enough to make a test-light glow means bad ground (or kill switch), CDI or pulser (pulser had low voltage).
    I have (2) CDI and we did get spark so I am guessing it's pulser? I am going to put old pulser back in and re-test voltage.

    Kill Switch Circuit open and no change
    Last edited by Scotty76; 10-05-2019 at 03:50 PM.
    1984 200S
    In Search of...
    250SX, 350X

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    4,114
    Voltages are a lot harder to read since the spec is peak voltage, it's an external adapter you add inline with your leads. Basically it charges up a capacitor and the meter reads the voltage the capacitor reaches. All of your readings are lower than expected so I'm assuming it's only the standard AC voltage measurement (RMS) and is just a max voltage for what you see vs the true peak voltage. Like power in your house, the 120v isn't 120v, it's 120v RMS AC sine wave. The actual peak voltage is around 170v, and the min voltage is -170v. Also some meters do weird averaging on the voltage readings, and since it depends on engine rpm for the voltage readings, if it's averaging 0v in with the high voltages, you'll get super low values. If your machine had electric start, then it would be more feasible to test with just the AC voltage readings. The best the readings tells me is the exciter coil puts out power, your ignition coil is seeing something of a signal, and the pulse generator is sending atleast something of a signal.

    The "unwritten" specs would be around these values (from newer machines)

    Exciter coil should be 100v peak voltage, my 350x reads 80v peak with my home built peak voltage tester
    Pickup/Pulse generator should be 0.7v peak voltage (basically it has to overcome a diode in the CDI, min forward voltage of diodes is 0.7v).
    Ignition coil signal - there's no real spec for this, but in theory as close as possible to the exciter coil voltages. A well balanced designed CDI will have higher values than a cheap china knock off. I don't reremember the numbers for sure, but I think the china CDI's I tested on my 350x were reading around peak voltage 45v while the OEM one was reading something like peak voltage 60-75v. The 45v one was still starting the engine.

    Here's a little more on AC power and peak voltage if you have any interest in learning more about it.

    https://testguy.net/content/270-Peak...vs-RMS-Voltage

    Here's a peak voltage adapter, normal usage is to read voltage in DC on your meter, even though the peak voltage the probes are reading is AC based (capacitors store power as DC). 100V DC = 0v AC because it's not alternating. Same logic can be used to measure ripple on DC power that isn't clean. Basically this is getting into oscilloscope type of analyzing with out the oscilloscope for the visuals.

    https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Sp...a-449403286482

    Anyway, just guessing, but the readings look pretty normal to me. The only odd thing might be the ignition coil signal, but it's not really AC, it's a pulse signal. Inside the CDI it charges a capacitor (same way a peak voltage tester works), and when the pickup coil sends the signal, the CDI shorts the output of the capacitor to the coil signal, so the actual power wave should look like a falling line (near instant) from the capacitor discharging. It's more of a DC power, but it's so short lived the multi meter wouldn't ever get a solid reading.

    This is what I'd expect the ignition coil siganl to look like (left, each peak is a spark signal. right one would be kind of a view of the capacitor voltage inside the box, kind of unrelated though).



    Anyway, I'd disconnect the kill switch wire and see if you have spark. If still no spark it's probably a poor connection, bad wire, or a bad solder joint in the CDI box. Since it sparked before, I'd rule out exciter coil, pickup coil, and ignition coil, and the CDI box circuit atleast works when it has connection.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Central Florida
    --
    13
    Yep, back to the drawing board.
    1984 200S
    In Search of...
    250SX, 350X

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Central Florida
    --
    13
    Wanted to add... I talked to an old friend of mine. He let me know that the intermittent spark sounds like a bad ground motor/frame.
    He advised me to ground the coil to the motor case (with a test line)temporarily to see what happens. I think this machine spent some time near salt-water so it makes sense.
    Will see what happens.
    1984 200S
    In Search of...
    250SX, 350X

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
    --
    4,114
    Ultimately the coil must be grounded to the engine block since that's where the spark plug grounds, so not a bad test. I've never seen a bad ground on a Honda yet, but anything is possible. FYI, I live in Michigan, one of the worst states for road salt and in quite a few areas quads are legal (mainly northern half) to be on the road. Salt is nasty stuff for wiring and not many connectors on these machines are water proof. Never been around machines in Florida so not sure how the salt in the air effects things exactly, I just know the roofs down there get rusty, and for us the whole bottom of the car falls apart.

    I'd think it's more CDI or ignition coil, but wiring is always possible and not nearly as simple to find/detect.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Central Florida
    --
    13
    Wow, grounded coil/frame to engine with a test wire and still nothing.
    Unplugged everything going to the headlight, to take out switch and anything else that could be bad.
    Still have voltage coming from magneto.

    The yellow/black wire should have voltage going to the coil and it has nothing.
    I can light a test-light when I pull the starter, attached to the red/black, so that is where power stops.
    Can two cdi boxes be shot??

    Ran the red/black direct to the coil skipping the Cdi.
    Tested coil output and no voltage.

    Took coil off machine. Ohm tested coil and it's good.

    Questions....
    What is the best way to test the yellow/black wire?
    Should I have a circuit, coil input to spark-plug-wire? I have none.
    Last edited by Scotty76; 10-26-2019 at 09:46 AM.
    1984 200S
    In Search of...
    250SX, 350X

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
    --
    4,114
    This isn't house wiring or a 12v system with a battery, so a test light isn't really a good tool for the job, multi meter tells so much more info (actual voltage etc vs bright bulb/dim bulb which who knows what voltage the bulb even is).

    Anyway the black/white wire is critical, if it has connection to ground through anything, the CDI will go nope not giving spark, not matter how good or bad the CDI is. If that's not the problem, then could be pickup coil (pulse generator) which is a ohms spec part. I think it was 20-70ohms for that machine. You also have to have the gap be right on the pickup else it won't trigger the CDI to fire.

    CDI's are a simple part, it's a capacitor, and a small circuit to control the charge/discharge of that capacitor. As long as the wiring is right and no broken solder joins on the connector, they don't just out of the blue fail, it's the capacitor that goes bad first, which gets weak with age kind of like how a battery gets weak. If you suddenly loose spark, the actual CDI likely is fine, it's a lost connection, kill wire shorted to ground, pickup coil not giving high enough voltage to overcome the diode in the CDI box (peak voltage 0.7v, takes a special tester though), etc.

    Anyway, anything can be bad twice, even new parts can be bad, ran into that plenty working on cars. If the CDI is bad, I'd assume it's a bad connection at the connector though, not the internal guts unless it's the wrong CDI for the machine, then probably just the wrong pinout since any CDI will make a spark, only the right CDI will make a spark at the right time.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Central Florida
    --
    13
    Brother I appreciate the info.
    I had all I could stand and put the machine on offer-up.
    Surprisingly, it sold in one hour and for quite a bit more than what I paid!!

    Anyway, you are an invaluable resource to this forum. Thanks again!
    1984 200S
    In Search of...
    250SX, 350X

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
    --
    4,114
    Not a problem at all, the Honda's resell quite well so even non working units sell quick =).

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