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Thread: Tire replacement questions. Replacing my original 37 year old tires

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    N.E. WI
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    Tire replacement questions. Replacing my original 37 year old tires

    Hi all,

    My 82 big red needs new shoes(tires) and I've been holding off because they are the originals but they are pretty worn out. Plus one of the back ones has a hole and leaks air. I'm just doing the rear tires, the front will live on with the original.

    I found tires called Deestone D929 for 40.00 each. Standard square lug pattern

    Anyone used these? Seem like they have decent reviews. I just putt around on the trike now days so I'm sure they will be better than the stock worn out ones.

    Main question: the axle bolt had a cotter pin through them, one broke coming out. Do I need to use a cotter pin or not?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    4,114
    Just replace the tires, don't bother replacing the rims. The rubber comes off the steel. Pretty much you just need to match up the tire size for it to work.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Pekin IL
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    529
    You should put something in there, keeps that nut from backing off. The seen guys use a nail or piece of wire in a pinch.

    I've never used that exact tire, but I have had some failures with some pretty similar off brand tires. A lot of it just depends on the terrain, if you're not doing anything too aggressive they will probably be just fine.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    N.E. WI
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippyplz View Post
    You should put something in there, keeps that nut from backing off. The seen guys use a nail or piece of wire in a pinch.

    I've never used that exact tire, but I have had some failures with some pretty similar off brand tires. A lot of it just depends on the terrain, if you're not doing anything too aggressive they will probably be just fine.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Thank you, so those nuts have a tendency to back off? Any idea on how many ftlbs that nut should be tightened to?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    USA
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    4,114
    I'll grab the specs when I get home. You should replace the cotter pin too. It's not so much that they normally back out, but it's a safety thing just encase.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    Alright, back home and on a real computer. The axle nut torque spec is 43-58 ft-lb.

    As for the cotter pin, basically it's for the just encase. If the nut comes loose, it will work it's way off fairly quickly with out something stopping it from coming out. If the nut comes off all the way, the whole wheel can fall off and case a bad day. That style of nut is called a castle nut, and it's common on steering parts for cars and trucks too, it's safety for them so if the nut comes loose, you'll still be able to steer the vehicle.

    Another thing to note is the splines on the hub can get worn if the nut is loose. When you move the tire, there should be no slop or free play between the tire moving and the axle moving. If there is, the splines likely won't last long due to the movement. It's not a bad idea to grease or lube up the splines to prevent rust and make taking it apart next time a bit easier.

    Also, FYI, the square bolt pattern you mention isn't standardized at all. If I recall correctly it's a 4x130 bolt pattern (4 bolts, 130mm circle for the spacing). 4/110 is much more common for Honda and I know they go upto 4/150, maybe even bigger than that. Same goes for 5 lug and 6 lug for cars & trucks.

    Anyway, if you're not aware, you can unbolt the 4 lug nuts that holds the rim to the hub to remove the tire. No need to touch the axle nut which holds the hub onto the axle. Walmart and pretty much any other place that sells & mounts tires can swap the tires over for you, shouldn't be expensive, maybe even free if you buy the tires from them. You could also bring the whole machine to them, but personally I'd just bring the tires to have them swapped over on the stock rims.

    For the cotter pin, I would think the automotive section should have some replacements. They make different sizes, so you'll want to find one small enough to fit, but big enough to stop the nut, doesn't have to be perfect, just close.


    I have no experience with that brand of tire, but when I google it, it comes up as a 22x11-8, but stock is 25x12-9. The first number is height, second is width, and 3rd is rim size all in inches. You'll likely want to match the height and rim size, width isn't quite as critical as long as it doesn't rub anything.

    Some tires are heavier than others, but it sounds like you're not an extreme rider, so you probably won't notice the difference much. Long story short, the OEM 3 wheeler tires are soft and made for a real light machine, most atv tires today are made for quads and side by sides so they tend to be thicker, heavier, and stiffer riding.


    Just did a quick ebay search for the cheapest new tires and the same brand comes up that you mentioned, maybe it's the same thing? it says it's 4 ply, max load 430lb per tire (860lb for the rear). Sounds like it's closer to a quad tire but probably would work fine, just maybe a tad on the stiff side.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/25x12-00-9-...MAAOSwlAZaVS5k



    Here's more of a 3 wheeler tire that's the right size, 2 ply and lighter tire which would give a better ride. If you work your machine the stiffer tire could be a benefit for you. I've had good luck with the Kenda brand.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/25x12-9-Ken...UAAOSwAy5aouQ2


    I haven't really had a real problem with cheap tires, but I don't live in the desert or have plants with big thorns etc.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    N.E. WI
    --
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    Alright, back home and on a real computer. The axle nut torque spec is 43-58 ft-lb.

    As for the cotter pin, basically it's for the just encase. If the nut comes loose, it will work it's way off fairly quickly with out something stopping it from coming out. If the nut comes off all the way, the whole wheel can fall off and case a bad day. That style of nut is called a castle nut, and it's common on steering parts for cars and trucks too, it's safety for them so if the nut comes loose, you'll still be able to steer the vehicle.

    Another thing to note is the splines on the hub can get worn if the nut is loose. When you move the tire, there should be no slop or free play between the tire moving and the axle moving. If there is, the splines likely won't last long due to the movement. It's not a bad idea to grease or lube up the splines to prevent rust and make taking it apart next time a bit easier.

    Also, FYI, the square bolt pattern you mention isn't standardized at all. If I recall correctly it's a 4x130 bolt pattern (4 bolts, 130mm circle for the spacing). 4/110 is much more common for Honda and I know they go upto 4/150, maybe even bigger than that. Same goes for 5 lug and 6 lug for cars & trucks.

    Anyway, if you're not aware, you can unbolt the 4 lug nuts that holds the rim to the hub to remove the tire. No need to touch the axle nut which holds the hub onto the axle. Walmart and pretty much any other place that sells & mounts tires can swap the tires over for you, shouldn't be expensive, maybe even free if you buy the tires from them. You could also bring the whole machine to them, but personally I'd just bring the tires to have them swapped over on the stock rims.

    For the cotter pin, I would think the automotive section should have some replacements. They make different sizes, so you'll want to find one small enough to fit, but big enough to stop the nut, doesn't have to be perfect, just close.


    I have no experience with that brand of tire, but when I google it, it comes up as a 22x11-8, but stock is 25x12-9. The first number is height, second is width, and 3rd is rim size all in inches. You'll likely want to match the height and rim size, width isn't quite as critical as long as it doesn't rub anything.

    Some tires are heavier than others, but it sounds like you're not an extreme rider, so you probably won't notice the difference much. Long story short, the OEM 3 wheeler tires are soft and made for a real light machine, most atv tires today are made for quads and side by sides so they tend to be thicker, heavier, and stiffer riding.


    Just did a quick ebay search for the cheapest new tires and the same brand comes up that you mentioned, maybe it's the same thing? it says it's 4 ply, max load 430lb per tire (860lb for the rear). Sounds like it's closer to a quad tire but probably would work fine, just maybe a tad on the stiff side.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/25x12-00-9-...MAAOSwlAZaVS5k



    Here's more of a 3 wheeler tire that's the right size, 2 ply and lighter tire which would give a better ride. If you work your machine the stiffer tire could be a benefit for you. I've had good luck with the Kenda brand.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/25x12-9-Ken...UAAOSwAy5aouQ2


    I haven't really had a real problem with cheap tires, but I don't live in the desert or have plants with big thorns etc.
    Thanks for the detailed reply. The tire I ordered was in the stock size of 25x12x9. They will be here the 4th. I already took the whole wheel off. I did not know I could take those four little bolts out and the wheel comes off that way too??? I cant even picture that. How does that work??

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    4,114
    I added an image of the blowout chart for the rear axle assembly, hopefully that illistrates what's going on a bit more. Front wheels on cars very commonly are quite similar, there's a hub with a bearing that the wheel bolts to with a big nut in the middle for the CV axle (front wheel drive cars). The whole bearing assembly can be unbolted and removed, but in this case you can't access the bolts with out pulling the tire off first. The ATV's are the same way minus the bearing, except you can access the nut that holds the hub on.

    Anyway, I jumped into the service manual, and their instructions actually say to remove the axle nut to pull the hub + wheel off at the same time. That kind of goes against everything I've done my whole life and my dad and my whole family (we have a lot of auto mechanics in the family). Maybe it's just because removing the tire on a car is required for so many things. Either case personally I'd only pull the axle nut if the hub was needed to be removed for the job. Changing just the tire I would leave it on the machine. The 4 small bolts around the outer edge of the rim are what holds the rim to the hub. I added the instructions below too as well as an image of just the hub showing the 4 studs that goes through the rim. Hopefully they visualize things for you a bit better.

    FYI, I assume you don't have split rims, but if there's 8 bolts on the rim instead of 4, be sure to remove only the ones for the hub (some people install the 4 bolts that holds the rim together backwards). If you're unsure, de-pressure the tire (let the air out), so it can't cause problems. This shouldn't be the case for you since they should be stock rims and tires.

    I'm kind of shocked there's effectively no videos showing a person taking off an atv tire, all the videos skip that step that I could find. Also just to note, the front wheel is bolted on the same way, but there's a bit more that has to be done to get to the lug nuts.








  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    N.E. WI
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    80
    I took the wheel/tire off together like I would a car because I'm bringing them in to a shop to have them swapped out. I dont have tire irons and all that as I just don't use them. Yeah this trike is bone stock and has the four little nuts inside the wheel.

    I remember yelling change a dirtbike tire, although that has a tube, and it was such a pain to do. The shop will use the machine wont they?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    To break the bead they will use the machine, I'm not sure if the machines go small enough to pull the tire off though, the mechanic might have to dig out a set of tire spoons and do it the old fashioned way. I suspect a location that does a lot of atv work like a Honda dealer that sells ATV's might be better equipped. I've always changed tires the manual way including breaking the bead. Tire irons work for car tires, but too thick for atv tires, tire spoons are similar but they are thinner and look more like a flat spoon. There's a ton of styles, but this is similar to the style I've had experience with.

    https://www.amazon.com/Ken-Tool-3464...497411&sr=1-20


    The trick to pulling the tire off is to put the bead of the tire on the opposite side into the huge gully of the rim so the other side can be pulled around the lip of the rim. The hardest part about changing a tire is generally breaking the bead, after that it's super easy to pull the tire off with the right tools (even when done manually). Using this logic, you can pretty much remove a bicycle tire by hand, atleast for the old 26in mountain bike style tires and road bike tires.

    Not sure if you change tires very often, but if you don't mind the manual work involved, the modern day "manual tire machine" works pretty slick. I'd defo suggest buying some nice tire spoons for taking the actual tire off the rim though, the included one works alright for car tires, not sure if it does atv tires well or not.

    https://www.amazon.com/PowerLift-Man...51612542&psc=1

    Here's a good video of a guy that has experience, does it exactly the way I do it except I have a long handled tire maul (the tool he used). The screwdriver looking thing is a tire core remover, got one that looks exactly the same as his, same with the tire spoons. For car tires it's stupid easy, or in his case a light truck tire. I've done old like 50's era split rim semi truck tires this way that sat for 30+ years from my grandpa's house when he sold his property. He had a stupid amount of old tires for some reason, took around a week to load up a 8x12 flat bed trailer with the rim free tires to take to the tire recycler and then afterwards hauled in the rims as non-ferrous steel to the scrap yard. The money from the rims paid to get rid of the tires. Not sure what it is about Michigan, but the property I bought had a pile of tires too, sadly very few with rims though, probably around 40 car/truck tires though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRAS1A6eEV0

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    Manheim, PA
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    Use a quick pin, they are cheaper and easier to get out. you need to lock the nut on there from comming off.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    That would be in the context of split rims, OP should have the stock single piece rim, atleast what my 200e service manual shows for photos.

    I've never ran into split rims welded together, the lip on them are normally a bit taller so pulling a tire on/off them with out splitting would probably be a chore lol. I agree cleaning the rim and painting or powder coating them if it's rusty is a good preventative maintenance item to hopefully stop air leaks (rust in the bead). Since the split rims have an o-ring seal that's not normally included in o-ring kits (too big), that 76 atc90 rims I painted and put new tires on I used the orig bad O-ring coated in red RTV, let it set slightly loose to setup thicker than the gap, then tighten it down. Worked pretty well for a sealant that's not designed for use under pressure. Buying a new o-ring would have been the best route, but I was like 15 with no money so I did what I had to do with stuff available to me. The paint was old paint my dad had sitting around and the rims were pretty rusty so had to fix that up.

    Anyway, I suspect the welded up split rims don't seal too well either unless the welder is actually good. It's not too easy to get an air tight weld, atleast for inexperienced welders.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    N.E. WI
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    Here is my setup. I was happy to see grease still on the splines and I've never had the rear wheels off and I've owned this trike for 11 years. Its spent its life indoors never left outside though.Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Yea those splines look really good. Reminds me of the honda lawn tractors, the rims on them has the hub splines built right into them. I have one I use for mowing and a few parts machines, even the worst looking machine has like perfect splines. They have a cap over the nut to help keep stuff out, plus most people store their mowers inside, so I guess it's not as impressive as an atv lol.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    N.E. WI
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    80
    Yeah the whole machine is pretty nice. A member here told me the original tires on it are no longer made. Sucks I have to finally replace them but the front will remain for now. The stickers get zero traction in snow now and one is punctuated. I'll hold onto the originals though
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Pryme; 02-04-2020 at 08:32 PM.

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