What did you do to make it start again?
Got The Holeshot
Arm chair racerJust too addicted
What did you do to make it start again?
yaegerb
The day begins with 3WW
Yes, you always bore and hone a cykinder when installing a new piston.Originally Posted by Atc 200x 1985
First Time Rider
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is It too late for me to take it apart and hone it or have I caused damage I haven’t ran it for very long after I put the piston in. Also here is the video of what is going on with hard startinghttps://youtu.be/MiPWC9Yn2oY mind all the junk In the background I haven’t had time to clean my shop.
Power User
The day begins with 3WW
In the video, sounds like you have pretty good compression (effort for kicking it). A new piston should have a hone done on the cylinder before installing, this helps the rings break into the cylinder walls.
The timing doesn't sound wildly off to me, the way it starts/runs seems to be more of a carb/fuel mix related problem. At startup, it almost acts like it's out of time though, but once running it doesn't seem too bad. Probably wouldn't hurt to do a plug check and see what it's showing. I'm far from a carb expert, but it seems the main jet is too lean and the pilot needs adjustment for easier starting. It sounds a bit like it's loaded up at idle, as in too rich which should mean the plug is turning black at idle if I'm correct.
Carb adjustments can always be reversed, count the turns in for the pilot jet till you get resistance to get your base line number so you can always go back and try to turn it in 1/4 to 1/2 turns in and see if it makes any difference on idle/starting. Shouldn't be any throttle needed to start the engine when tuned correctly.
Instead of trying to describe the whole process of the trial/error style tuning, here's a section of a book on how to do it. This is from Kawasaki for race dirt bikes, so there might be some 2 stroke only related things in this, but should be a good read for anyone new to carb tuning. This is in the context of a carb that's clean and doesn't have issues like plugged jets or passages.
https://i.gyazo.com/0a47fe91dcc9850f...f6e099ab0b.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/fdb71dcb1d4f0422...e7e5f83c04.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/701e069f5e29d5b8...0cfc3ae350.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/09a145c06ef23a25...d3fcaa1de2.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/5f6448c9e864cadf...3bad176d15.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/ff436348501afeda...293394d0bd.jpg
First Time Rider
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Yes I’m far from a expert too but normally I’m able to get it straightened out but this is real picky. Ill look at the spark plug and see if it is black. And I am with you on the fuel air mixture is what is causing the hard starting I’ll read this book thanks for it. The spark plug was black and wet.
Last edited by Atc 200x 1985; 03-21-2020 at 06:11 PM.
Power User
The day begins with 3WW
Black & wet, sounds like too rich to me.
I wonder if the carb is from another machine and the 200x carb jetting in the wrong carb is causing the unexpected overly rich condition.
Stock should be PD62B and has a bore size of 24mm, and a random example of a carb that might get mixed up on it could be something like the ATC200ES carb, PD55A and bore size 22mm.
I've created a table of carb ID numbers and what machines they go to. Far from being perfect, but gets atleast an idea what the carb is from if it's not stock.
https://atvmanual.com/honda/atv-oem-...identification
yaegerb
The day begins with 3WW
Yes, you should pull your cylinder and get it bored and honed to the next size piston. I don’t know what kind of budget you are on but LA sleeve can do the whole thing plus supply the piston for less than 200.00.
Also, your carburetor needs to be rebuilt, it’s toast.
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yaegerb Yeah I am short on money rn but my grandpa has a honer could I just hone it or do I have to bore and hone it. I spent 200 bucks on that wiseco piston rings and gasket set. I bought a brand new carb and got new jets and everything it is one of those Chinese ones off amazon. Ps2fixer I bought that Chinese aftermarket carb off amazon they look identical to the original carburetor. I have the stock jet sizes 108 main, 40 pilot, and the 3 groove on the needle. Should I downsize the main or something else?
Last edited by Atc 200x 1985; 03-21-2020 at 09:58 PM.
Power User
The day begins with 3WW
Do you have a way to measure the China carb? Would be interesting to know if it's the same size bore or not. I haven't had much for experience with them, but the couple times I've been around them, they have been jetting wrong even though in both cases the engines ran "ok". With enough time, effort, and jets on hand, I would think you could jet it where it will run well, but it's a lot of trial and error, might not be the best route to take though.
What happened to the OEM carb, or was it missing? If you have it yet, could clean it up well, make sure no passages are blocked and swap the good Jets over to that carb body and probably have good results.
Yaegerb can confirm or correct me on this, but the hone/bore of the cylinder should be measured in several locations to make sure it's still squared up and the bore is round yet. If it's in spec, a hone is enough to give the new rings a fresh surface to break into as long as there isn't scoring in the cylinder walls. If it's beyond spec, then a bore is needed to size up the cylinder and a different piston size is required with another set of rings too. Also the piston should be measured for bore vs piston clearance spec and generally a machine shop will need the piston on hand before a bore job so they can bore to the actual piston size instead of what it's sold as. I think that covers the basics on the proper cylinder part, there's always the head, cam, rod/crank bearings etc to check. A full rebuild would include checking the transmission out and such too.
I proper build can get expensive really fast, but you know what you have. I've also seen people get away with doing things as incorrectly as possible and still ending with a reliable engine. Like my dad's 1953 Case Tractor engine build process was so much different than the correct route because of lack of parts, lack of money, engine design, etc. He grew up with his dad (my grandpa) being extremely tight on money and wouldn't spend any extra for some things that were really needed. Like gaskets, here's some gasket paper, make your own. Got a metal part that broke, weld it back together. This thinking/logic doesn't always work out well though either. My grandpa also had a T6 bulldozer that had a gear break back in like the 70's. It got tore down found the problem, and none of his kids would weld it back together and reassemble with the broken gear. It sat around till around 2008 when it got hauled in for scrap after he passed away because everything on it was pretty shot by then. Found out it weighed around 6 tons, probably what the T6 stands for.
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Sure I can measure it I have a Venere Caliper I’ll measure it tomorrow or when I can. When I had it apart there were no major scratches but there was some but they weren’t bad at all like you would have to look at the cylinder a certain angle and you could see them it’s no hassle for me to pull the motor and hone it wich I am probably going to do. I’m not new to engine building but I ain’t no expert by any means. I’ll get that honer tomorrow and work on it. I measured and it was in spec that’s why I thought I didn’t have to hone. And I don’t have jets laying around but I can buy a pack of them off line that has all kinds of sizes for like 15-20 dollars. I have the oem carburetor but I switched to the China one I have the oem one I’ll put it back on when I can.
Last edited by Atc 200x 1985; 03-21-2020 at 11:11 PM.
Power User
The day begins with 3WW
Make sure the Jets are the brand name ones, no off brand ones. The other brands do not line up with the stock ones, so you'd be starting effectively blind with an aftermarket jet kit. Pretty much the numbers just tell you if it's bigger or smaller, besides that they don't really correlate too well from what I've read (no personal experience, I've always bought the name brand).
Your carb used Keihin branded jets stock, if you can get that brand with several jets for $15-20, shoot me a link, I wouldn't mind having a wide range of jets on hand. I paid like $15 for two jets off jetsrus with shipping etc.
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Yeah the jet I have in there is some aftermarket rebuild kit but the pilot is oem Honda I’ll get you a link to them jets. What do you want a little of every thing? also another thing is do you want the long style of main jets or the short style? Just lemmie know.
Last edited by Atc 200x 1985; 03-22-2020 at 12:41 AM.
Power User
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These would be the main jets I'd be interested in. ATC250ES/SX 350x style carbs.
https://www.jetsrus.com/a_jet_kit_at...50_ATC350X.htm
yaegerb
The day begins with 3WW
Bore is likely out of round depending on the amount of hours since last rebuild. Only way to be sure is measure that is with a dial bore gauge. If it’s not within spec in the manual then yes you need a bore and then a hone.
Do you have the original carb? Never buy the Chinese ones. More headache than they are worth.
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It has less then a hour since I put that new piston in yes I do have the original carb I will put that back on. Or are you talking about the previous rebuild cause if so it’s never been rebuilt until I done the top end.
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