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Thread: ATC185S 200S DC Conversion for LED

  1. #31
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    Cool stuff, seems a capacitor might be a good solution, just they aren't the most hardy of constructions, but that's pretty easy to work around.

  2. #32
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    If I had poked a flat piece of steel through a lead acid battery, I'm pretty certain it would have failed too, except it would have been a much bigger mess.

    Now that the capacitor has it's own bracket, out of harms way, it should hold up just fine.
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  3. #33
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    I replaced that stupid large LED light with something smaller, so it wouldn't dim at idle.

    The stock headlight bulb is 35 watts, and obviously dims at idle, so it's clear the OEM stator doesn't deliver 35 watts at idle.

    Today, I measured the previous LED watts, and it turned out to be about 26W (2.1 amps @ 12.2 volts). So anything that high, is to much for the stock stator to handle at idle too. Inefficiencies have to included for the reg/rec, because there's some power lost there.

    The previous LED was a little hectic, with no real optics. It was just a crap load of LEDs, with a very rudimentary reflector. In other words, cheap and inefficient.

    I bought one of these to replace it:

    https://usa.alpena.ca/trailfire.html
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    Still an inexpensive light, but at least there is an attempt at real optics. It also doesn't dim at idle now; rock steady. The listed specs say it's 8.4W.

    Edit: I rode it with the new light yesterday, and being realistic, it's more than enough illumination. Compared to what these came with, it's loads better. A much wider, brighter, and steady beam that doesn't dim at idle. Still, I may add a pencil beam to it, something low power, but with a projector lens. It would be nice to get that narrow, long distance shine on, but to do it, will probably take a single dedicated light, because most of the unit type LED assemblies don't incorporate something that focused.
    Last edited by ATC King; 04-06-2021 at 12:03 PM.
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  4. #34
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    The image of the optional DC kit wiring in an earlier post can still be a bit vague, so I made up a simple diagram that's easier to read. Keep in mind that as long as a four wire reg/rec is being used the wire colors can be different but the function is the same.

    My diagram is based on a 185S, so the two stator wires are yellow and green and don't confuse the green stator wire with ground because it never is a ground wire in the sense that neither the yellow or green is grounded to the chassis until connecting to the main harness. That means only after both stator wires go into the reg/rec, does the green/black wire coming from the reg/rec become a ground connected to the battery and the main harness. Another way to say it is once DC converted a voltmeter can be used to measure DC voltage at the headlight socket ground (green) wire whereas before the voltmeter would have to be switched to AC to measure the voltage.

    Also, if using a battery, a fuse and on/off switch to the battery positive should be included for safety and to prevent a drained battery. My diagram doesn't include that. With a battery and without a fuse, a short could end in smoking wires and potentially a burned trike.

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    Last edited by ATC King; 11-14-2021 at 11:25 AM.
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  5. #35
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    All looks good to me in the image above. One thing to note is that the regulator/rectifier doesn't make "true" DC, it's a dirty form of DC called rectified DC. For a battery, lights, etc it's no problem. Adding a 12v aux port and charging your phone, it may or may not work. Anything more sensitive like that I'd suggest adding the battery even just a small one to smooth the voltage out.

    This is a horrible scan, but it helps show the pin out of the regulator/rectifier. This is based on the ATC200ES, but the 200E and 200M should be the same pinout too. One thing to keep in mind when looking for a regulator/rectifier is specs, the stock 200es,e, and m put out 50w max. It likely is over rated for the actual power output of the machine, but that's your energy budget and there are losses involved so the real max is likely closer to 45w (accounting for 10% loss in conversion).

    Here's a basic pinout guide if the regulator/rectifier has wires (based on ATC King's post above)

    Yellow + Yellow or Yellow + Green = AC input
    Green or Black = DC Neg output
    Red = DC Pos output

    *Some* 5 wire regulator/rectifiers also have a key on signal wire, if it has 2 yellow or white wires, it's likely this design. If it has 3 yellow or white wires, then it's designed for a different stator design (3 phase). I'm pretty sure the 3 phase setup can work on a single phase like the 200es/e/m (and several more), but you need 3x the spec since you're only using 1/3 of the hardware. If max output is 50w, then you need a 3 phase regulator/rectifier that can handle 150w. That style generally has the ignition switch detection wire too, pretty sure it "turns on" the regulator/rectifier to prevent battery draw, but a lot of old ones don't have it.



    Also there's some scooter ones out there that's 4 wire that doesn't work. Beware of Chinese made ones, they seem to not regulate the voltage at all. You don't want your battery hitting over 15v if you run a battery, and lights will have a much shorter life at a higher voltage. LED's designed with a variable input voltage can generally handle up to around 30v and probably would work if there's enough of a load to keep it under the max voltage (no load can hit 50-70v+).
    Last edited by ps2fixer; 11-14-2021 at 03:04 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    Here's a basic pinout guide if the regulator/rectifier has wires (based on ATC King's post above)
    Depends if someone views posts in ascending or descending order.

    From my screen the first page shows the last post first.

    Don't know about no 'dirty' DC, but as for true and modified AC sine wave, that horribly modified junk like with those cheap converters is a sure-fire way to jack up some electronics. A hair dryer or incandescent bulb could care less though. DC don't care too much as the battery smooth's everything out. All the electronics in modern cars run on alternators that make AC current which is then rectified for direct control of dem cars currently heading in a direction.

    Every modern electronic in a house on grid uses rectified DC because the entire house if fed AC. Even so-called brushless DC generators use rectification because they don't make DC like a brushed one. The little bottle generator on my old bicycle makes DC, but the dynamo hub on my other bike makes AC which is rectified by the LED light assembly so it's useable and to charge the small battery in the assembly. About the only thing on a modern home that makes DC is solar panels, but then it's inverted to AC so people can plug things in like normal then the power supplies convert that back to DC so the electronics can use it. Insanity.



    A motorcycle I have uses the same basic DC system as the trikes and electronics charge and work just fine. Got to have a battery or capacitor though to smooth out that ripple.

    The key-on reg/recs are more for remote voltage sensing because motorcycle/ATV wiring tends to have the main power junction farther away from the battery and it was an attempt to help the reg/rec see a more accurate system load. On that motorcycle of mine I got rid of that and put a modern four wire on it without an issue. The key switch was acting up and I think it was screwing with the voltage regulation.


    I'm really just trying to keep the DC conversion thing simple for understanding. It certainly needs a battery or capacitor to function properly and keep from burning up the reg/rec. Anyone going over power budget will figure it out pretty quickly but there are some inexpensive tools out there to actually test how much something is drawing which is better than trying to get any accurate specs on Chinese products.

    Speaking of Chinese products...China Freight has a 30 Amp automotive fuse circuit tester that with some adaptation will work to test electrical accessories. Do a little math with volts to figure out the watts and it's a handy tool to see how much junk the ATC can handle (at least above idle anyway). With any vehicle 12v system, a voltage gauge is always a good idea, because even a good and stable system can freak out at any moment and darn batteries aren't getting any less expensive. I'll take a voltage gauges over a tachometer any day if having to choose between the two. I'll instantly know when RPMs are zero but won't have a clue if charging is likewise or through the roof until it's too late.

    Watts going to be energizing is modifying the stator on things with one wire coming out so the ground can be floated and add a full wave reg/rec. I've got a couple things around here that'll get that treatment.

    https://www.harborfreight.com/30-amp...ter-67724.html
    Last edited by ATC King; 11-14-2021 at 10:35 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Yea, dirty DC looks like this when there's no battery, the battery is the fix to the dirty power. Inside power supplies, large capacitors are used instead of a battery.



    That's only without a battery, with a battery it's almost a perfect flat line like DC should be. To give an idea, here's what a capacitor does (tiny battery), they discharge off the peaks, a big battery you won't see much of a drop from peek to peek.



    This is getting pretty technical though, that's like electronics 101 though, like circuit level power supply area of electronics. I never had the class, but I'm pretty sure they start with power supplies.

    Chinese specs don't exist, don't kid yourself, they are at best guesses, and at worst marketing bs (100k lumens! but only 55w.... but who knows if that 55w is even the actual power draw, more likely it's equivalent to 55w incandescent so it's more like 6w!).

    You can run the 4 wire regulator/rectifiers on stators with internal grounds... the problem is you must float the DC output side instead of the AC input. Also have to be mindful if the housing is grounded at all or not and which side it's grounded on (likely output side). Another route you can take if you have plenty of energy budget overhead is to use a half wave rectifier (aka a single diode), but you'd still need a voltage regulator too and it seems they are generally separate in systems that are half wave rectified. The Goki kits used this logic for their ATC350X electric start kit but there's plenty of overhead to charge the battery through a diode while the lights etc run directly off the AC and the factory voltage regulator keeps the voltages in check for the battery. Yay for trying to keep things simple huh? I tried to keep it down to 2 and 3 wire systems, but you just had to bring up the 1 wire systems xD. If I recall correctly these are all the "1 wire" systems 350x, 250r, 200x. Most of the others should be 2 wire except 250es and 250sx were 3 wire (3 phase).

    Also, forum default is oldest post on top, newest on bottom since most threads make the most sense reading as posts happened instead of reversed. I'm sure it's handy to see the newest post first if you're right on top of of when the thread was made and such though. Personally I like the forum default though. If it was more of a Q&A and answers were always the last post, then the reverse would be 100% my go to. It would be neat to have a plugin on the forums to let the orig poster pick a replies as answers though so you see the question, and 2nd post is the answer.

    Btw, the diagram you made is basically the same thing as what Honda made in one of their diagrams for the ATC185S/ATC200 "DC Power Kit". An updated in color version is nice to have around though. Honda does show the fuse too.



    Of course without context it's not great, here's the section of the wire diagram it's referencing. It's a "T" adapter that goes between where the engine normally plugs into the main harness. The black/red wire which powers the CDI box is just a pass through. In this diagram shows it as a seperate wire, but if I remember right the newer ones moved it into the 3 pin connector. The factory kit works with both versions.



  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    You can run the 4 wire regulator/rectifiers on stators with internal grounds... the problem is you must float the DC output side instead of the AC input.
    Some people have done that but it's the lazy way that actually ends up costing more work. Now that the chassis is essentially hot, all harness grounds must be undone and any devices that have a ground separate from the harness's chassis ground must be connected to that, which is what you've said by floating the DC, I'm just showing what that means in terms of extra effort. Then other issues like wire abrasion against the chassis would potentially damage more than just popping a fuse.

    I wouldn't consider it a proper setup. Just remove the stator unsolder the ground and add the extra wire to it and be done without having to mess with any of the main harness. On more popular machines there were/are places that sold modified stators just for that purpose in case someone was able to do it on their own or didn't have the down time.


    Yeah, the GOKI kit likely done their lawnmower half wave setup to save cost and make installation easier. Low end residential riding mowers use that even though their stator probably doesn't produce as much power, but the headlights are seldom used and are low power so it works ok.

    I've kind of been waiting to see if you're going to build and sell a harness for this 185/200 conversion. It's plug & play besides the purchaser having to mount the regulator, battery/capacitor. You'd have to sell a regulator with the harness though so they don't order one separately that's incorrect.
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  9. #39
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    Yep, everything but ignition parts would have to have the ground isolated. Which also means the stock harness design isn't friendly to that setup, both ways requires reworking things, but some people refuse to open their engine up so it's an alternative option. I prefer floating the stator side myself, but never done it either way. For a plug and play product, a redesigned harness could be used though where the lighting ground is floated while ignition is still grounded.

    If I recall correctly, the 350x stator specs at 200w, lights are like 75-80w so there's still enough for 1amp or so of battery charging (24w effectively from the half wave). The numbers work, the voltage is regulated with the stock part, so it reduces the cost to the customer quite a bit. Having each person float the stator ground to have electric start would have been probably a barrier to entry too high for them to become mainstream at all. It does say in their manual to charge the battery before use and that their system doesn't work with low batteries. The diode is tiny! Like 1-2 amp rated max. A low battery drawing more could blow the diode and there's zero fuse protection. I've recreated the goki harness for a few people but used a "rectifier" from Honda which is a monster diode. I don't know the amp rating, but it's 50x physically larger so I think it could handle 5-10amp. I didn't feel right using a tiny diode when people were paying good money for an upgrade. I also made the harness to battery connections real simple wires, and suggested to have a fuse added in. At the time I didn't have a solid source for fuse holders that weren't China made junk.

    Yea, I'll make a kit, but haven't focused on this in a while. My problem is I can't stand low quality junk parts. I tried 5 Chinese regulator/rectifiers and they all did not regulate the voltage (hit 20v+ with no load). Either it's just a rectifier and it's a scam to just sell people a part that can make as cheap as possible and doesn't do as it says, or the voltage regulation circuit can't handle a no load condition. Honda stock regulators seem to handle the no load issue fine, but there's no new source for them. I did have a supplier that sold the OE branded regulators, but that dried up when they stopped taking orders from the public and are suppliers for an internal network only now . They weren't cheap, but OE brand for slightly less than some more modern regulators from Honda. I haven't ran across a newer stock regulator/rectifier that matches the 4 wire setup.

    For the key on wire, I haven't dug into it at all, but I figured it turned it on, but what you said makes me think it's a voltage sense wire similar to an automotive alternator. Problem is, the red wire from the battery is a much shorter run and should be a more accurate voltage reading, but maybe just the power draw over that wire causes enough of a voltage drop for a 2nd wire that's twice the length of the machine to sense the voltage.

    I probably should just find a modern regulator/rectifier that's close enough for a reasonable enough price from Honda and make it work and test it out. Like I'm 99% sure a 3 phase one will work, it's just only using 1 phase of it, so needs to be a machine that outputs atleast 150w which isn't hard to find. I think the 3 phase ones are quite a bit more expensive though and most have the ignition switch sense wire so I didn't want to hot wire it to "hack" it to work as a product.

    If someone needs one of these adapters made for a 185/200 and has a 200e/200es/200m regulator, I can build the adapter harness, I just need to know how long of a lead is needed to mount the regulator, or just guess and make it like 12-16in. I'm pretty sure I have all of the connectors on hand. The battery vs no battery setup is the only small issue. I've read that it's not good to have no battery, but the 350x has the same effective circuit and it doesn't have a battery. It just regulates ac voltage instead of rectified dc (maybe the voltage regulation is done before the bridge rectifier). Back when I was searching for this stuff more, I was tempted to build my own, the circuits aren't too hard to figure out, but the heat sink housing is the hard part to figure out, I really like the OE style, compact and works well.

  10. #40
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    The last capacitor just went bad.

    I don't know what caused it. It was after the last little crash, but I made it home that night a few weeks ago and it just went bad last night. I also had a light failure that I think was due to just being a cheap light (more on that later - bad assembly/ temperature management) and I still haven't put a fuse in the system. These capacitors are used/old, and maybe the way I have them mounted the vibration is hard on them.

    I really don't want to switch to a battery. I threw one of the 12v capacitors I had on it for now and everything is fine again, but it may not last as the max voltage is too low and I had to put the higher power LED back on because the other one bit the dust (after the crash too?) It's not really large enough of a capacity either, but I'll run it until it dies or I move on to my next option; super capacitor.

    I really don't want to bother with one of the bare super capacitors and having to make a box for it. I just don't want to spend the time doing that. I also don't need one large enough to crank an engine either, just something with enough capacity to keep the light from diming instantly at idle. I've got the one I've been running on my pickup for a year or so now, but that's way overkill as it'll actually start a 200ES on it's own without a battery.

    This company has some that are packaged in a way I think will work good for the application.

    http://www.mac-bat.com/
    Last edited by ATC King; 01-15-2022 at 12:58 AM.
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  11. #41
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    The super cap is probably the best option. It's been a long time since I read my electronics books, I know there's low ESR caps for motherboards though, ripple and all of that. What you're using them for is more along the lines of a power supply cap though. Grab an old laptop power supply, or desktop power supply and grab out the 200-400v cap, bet that one is the right spec for the application assuming the vibration and such isn't the cause of the death. A small box of some sort and fill with epoxy might be a good way to weather proof it and protect the wire leads (solder wires to it maybe, or a connector?)

    Super cap should just be a higher capacity normal cap, I think the physical design is a bit different too.

    I don't remember the specs of the orig cap you put in, but one thing I thought of is if there's no load on the system, it might go very high voltage which might be the cause of killing the cap. My 350x easily hit 60v on the lighting coil with no load, and that's AC, so it hit even higher for true peak voltage.

  12. #42
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    My whole hand wringing deal is me just trying to keep the voltage up past 12 at idle with the light on.

    That means running a light with a power consumtion less than what the stator can provide at idle, or using a battery. The capacitor works just fine for smoothing out the system, it's just they don't have enough energy density to run a high powered LED for more than seconds at idle. A super capacity has much more energy density than the old style caps I've been using and if I run a light, at least on low beam, that is at or just under the system's idle capacity, the planets will align.

    I'll have to look back in this thread, but the larger light I was and am again using is about 25 watts and the system doesn't provide that at idle. I did put a smaller, less powerful one on, but it kicked the bucket. It worked how I wanted until something took a doodoo.

    I took it apart to have a look, and just look at the lack of thermal paste how poorly the board fit to the housing. There's clearly a large gap back there because the paste wasn't hardly even squished around. The paste was still tacky though. All the materials and time to produce something that looked the part of quality, only to skimp on paste or time to make sure it's all assembled well.

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    Probably just ONE of the differences between cheap LEDs and quality ones.


    BTW, the reg/rec is doing it's job just fine. When the cap is good, voltage holds steady at a little over 14.
    Last edited by ATC King; 01-15-2022 at 11:29 AM.
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  13. #43
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    I see. On the cheap LED front, my dad has bought a lot of them off ebay and such, from driving lights on cars, headlights, led light bars on quads/trucks etc. They almost always draw less power than they claim (about 1/3 to 1/2), so that's roughly how much dimmer they are than they should be. The power supplies in them aren't great, and as you've seen with yours, they look the part of quality, but the thermo paste is always lacking. It seems they use components that are under spec for the job, either poor design or designed to fail so you buy another, guessing it's a little of both.

    Over on Diesel Creek (youtube channel), he got some LED lights that looked pretty impressive and when I looked up the prices, they weren't half bad, maybe 1.5-2x the price of chinese lights of similar wattage. They are still made in China, but there's a brand name behind them. Hyper light. Showed them to my dad and he bought a couple to test. The 30w one pulls about 33w (30w worth of LEDs = ~10% loss in the power supply I'm guessing). They are very bright and seem to be built well, or atleast better than the no name lights. He's only had them for days/weeks, so not sure how they are for long term. They have 12v and 120v variations. He's bought some bigger lights now since he was impressed with them, and all of the 120v lights he tested were using a kilowatt meter.

    My opinion is the Chinese quality seems to be ok, if only they could just add 100% more quality to their work/component choices. Doubling the price would be no big deal if it actually worked well and lasted. China would take over the world and be the go to place for cheap *and* reliable electronics.

    Anyway, I couldn't remember if you had a regulator/recitifer or which machine it was installed in, so with it shouldn't allow for power spikes I'd think. I know a lot of people say they aren't great with out a battery/draw but I never monitored one myself with an o-scope.


    Back to the LED thing for a bit, my dad and I both have cheap chinese outdoor flood lights. All of his are burning up including the orignal one I got as well. I had some 3 watt LED's I bought off ebay a while back that are likely Chinese made, so I bought a 10w driver board, again probably chinese made and "rebuilt" the LED light. Hardest part was mounting the LED's to the heat sink, pretty much hillbilly rigged it up with some thermo paste in the center and clue around the edge lol. The China lights lasted months, mine is on 24/7 driving 4 3w leds (12w max rated) at 10w for 2 or 3 years now. Still looks bright and have had no problems with it at all. The parts to rebuild it was probably cheaper than the original price of the light and today they are probably even cheaper. It's just a little light to light the porch area at night. Some day I'll wire up the light sensing eye I have for it so it cycles with the night cycle.

  14. #44
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    I've got a lot of LEDs in incandescent/hallogen housings. It took a while to find A. - ones that illuminated the housing properly & B. - that didn't burn out in short order.

    I've also been through several pod type LED aux lights. There are some Rigids on my moto that've been working great for the better part of a decade.

    The automotive style LED headlight I put in the 200ES is still working great. It's worth mentioning that even on the 200ES, which already has a DC system, at idle and with the OE lights on, the battery is discharging. Only the three phase systems like on the 250SX and 250ES charge decent at idle. None of the other 125/185/200 trikes have a charging system that will charge the battery AND power lights at idle. That's evedent by the way the stock AC lights even dim at idle. Switching the stock lights for LED can make that possible though.
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  15. #45
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    ATC185S 200S DC Conversion for LED

    Having an interesting issue. I bought a cheap kohler reg/rec off Amazon and hooked up both stator output wires to the outer prongs labeled AC and putting my tester on DC voltage I only get 2.3v DC or 1.0v DC depending on which polarity I hook the stator wires to the reg/rec. I’ve checked the ground from the engine case to the reg/rec housing and it checks good. I get around 16v AC when I check the stator output without the reg/rec. Did I buy the wrong reg/rec or is something not right here?

    Bike is a 83 185s





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    Last edited by ZacH_GrifF; 01-18-2022 at 07:57 PM.
    1. 83 185s: (the money pit) xr200 cam, 200cc cylinder, 10.25:1 piston, 83 250r front end, 450r hubs, full suspension
    2. 85 Big Red 250es: in pieces
    3. 85 200m

    4. 00 Polaris Magnum 325 2x4: stays broke
    5. 02 Yamaha Wolverine 350 4x4: trail bike

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