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Thread: ATC185S 200S DC Conversion for LED

  1. #1
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    ATC185S 200S DC Conversion for LED

    Since I got my 185 going again, I got around to converting it to DC power. This should work on any of the 185/200 hardtails.

    I bought a cheap reg/rec from Ebay, and a large capacitor. Yes, I now realize the capacitor may be to low a voltage and possibly fail. I've got a 16v one on the way. I realized this when I seen the reg/rec is keeping voltage near 15.
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    I made a harness, so this is completely plug and play. No modifications to the stock wiring and the entire system is now DC. Harness plugs directly into stator plug, runs AC to the reg/rec, then DC back to the harness that used to plug into the stator. The capacitor is tapped in between the reg/rec and harness. I need to install a fuse, but didn't have one today. Will pick one up and install near the capacitor positive.
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    The reg/rec and capacitor can be mounted in many locations, I chose the rear of the frame because I'm not using a stock exhaust, it's open to airflow, and I didn't have to run a single wire forward of the stator connector. No extra mess of wires near the headlight to deal with. It's a four wire reg/rec. Didn't need a five wire with sensing for this application.
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    I've just mounted the capacitor with a hose clamp for the time being. Wanted to get everything working before I buy or make some type of rubber mount, or isolator clamp.

    With no lights on, it's regulated ~14.85v and stays there idle to top. With low power LEDs (like for tail light), it's stays there even at idle, no flickering. With the big daddy LED I plan to use for high, voltage drops at idle and the LED flickers. Just off idle, it's back to 14v again. Just not enough power at idle. I could easily manage that with a battery, but I don't want to use one. I don't want to add another switch or key and their extra wiring that would be a good idea to have if using a battery. No electric start either, so a battery is a bit too much and just something else to make sure stays charged.

    Just have the LED hanging there for testing. Will make a bracket.
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    I have one of those LEDs on a motorcycle, it's bright, but has a very wide pattern. Perfect for woods riding at hardtail speeds.


    Annnd about larger capacitors, they need to be discharged before handling or it can be shocking what they'll do. New one I have coming is about 100,000uf.
    Last edited by ATC King; 06-15-2020 at 10:22 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Good job so far.

  3. #3
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    For the rectifier you used, was it a half wave or full wave (one vs 4 diodes internally)? Also what's the wattage of the LED light? If I remember correctly, the ATC200S puts out 50w, might be able to get the stator rewound for 70w. The 200e/es should be 70w if I remember right, don't recall if it would be possible to interchange the stator though.

    Careful of the Chinese regulators, I worked on a Chinese atv not long ago for a friend that had a dead battery and no ignition problem, turned out the rectifier/regulator was shorted out internally and was blowing the main fuse, not sure if that's how they commonly fail, just food for thought.

  4. #4
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    Guessing it's full wave. Same design as the other cheap reg/recs that list 'full wave' in their eBay description. The Chinese listing descriptions are vague, at best.

    For instance, the LED light I'm using is listed as 248watts. That's certainly not true, and it's not even comparable to light output in any meaningful way. I haven't measured the actual power consumption, but it's on up there for lights of this type. It has over 70 led chips. It's not so high that the stator won't fully power it, just high enough that it won't at idle. It's listed operating range is 9v-30v, and the system is down near 9v at idle.

    Same issue on my 200ES. I have a LED headlight and taillight on it, but it's still possible to go over budget with high beam at idle. With the headlight I'm using on it, if I run the low, high, and DRL at idle, the battery begins to drain. LEDs still take some juice, they just put out a lot more light for the same power. Want to decrease power use, typically running a LED with similar to stock light output will use much less power. Who wants that though, instead of gobbling up all the power, but putting out more light.

    The charging system on these is only single phase, so there's only so much they're going to do, regardless. The good thing on the 185/200 hardtails is the stator is not grounded, which makes converting the whole system to DC quick and easy. Just treat the green wire from the stator like any other yellow or pink stator wire. Not a single wire or ground on the OE harness needs modified and now the entire harness is DC. Could easily add a small battery if someone wanted to included USB charging for phone, GPS, or other accessories, which wouldn't be a problem using when the lights are off or on low.

    Ricky Stator sells a high output (75w) lighting coil for these. https://www.rickystator.com/product/...coil-all-years

    Not sure what it'd do at idle. Max output is always up in the RPM.

    I already had wire and the connectors. The LED headlight was an extra that came with a set I bought. The reg/rec and capacitor were all I had to buy extra. Trying to keep the cost down, but I may buy one of those larger capacity lighting coils later, just to see how it acts. The lighting I'm using now is plenty, and the system handles if all fine, except at idle. I'll just switch to the lower power LED at idle and it's all fine.

    I hear you on the Chinese electrical stuff, but that's about all that's available without going stupid expensive or buying used Japanese motorcycle electrical parts. Why I need to get an inline fuse pretty quickly and probably unwrap the new harness and put it in line with the reg/rec.
    The story of three wheels and a man...

  5. #5
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    A fuse isn't a bad idea, I don't know capacitors *that* well to know how much energy yours can hold (in a measurement I'm used to, like ah, wh, etc). If the cap shorting out wouldn't be able to burn wires, I wouldn't worry about the fuse. The alternator is designed to be full load used while running, so dead short shouldn't be a problem for it. It never hurts to have a fuse anyway, it's defo a best practice.

    Everything you said electrically about the machine is 100% the same as I understand it. Single phase, floated ground, 50-70w peak output stock. Reasion I mentioned about the half wave vs full wave rectifier is because the half wave would be a lot easier to notice the flicker. I would have thought the cap would have filled the void between the power spikes/humps, I guess it's either the alternator doesn't put out enough at idle (makes sense), or the cap is too small for the power draw. Since power output and frequency increases with rpm, it's a little hard to tell 100%. In theory if you bypassed the cap you'd always see the LED light flicker unless it has caps inside of it. In theory 3600 rpm should be 60hz AC, fully rectified should be 120hz for the rectified DC power (not sure what exactly it's called for the frequency). The human eye notices flickers upto around 30hz or 30 flashes per second before it's hard to tell it's flashing vs just solid on. 30hzz should be 25% of 3600 rpm, or 900 rpm. If it's half wave the hz is cut in half and to have the 30hz rate with half wave would be around 1800rpm. Just food for thought.

    For the voltage regulator/rectifier, did you get a pin out with it? I've contacted probably 5 or so sellers asking for a pin out and no one can get it for me, I have 4 rectifiers similer to what you bought. I did get one wire diagram but it doesn't make much sense, it appears it's designed for a 2 phase system, likely a moped or something. The rectifier in mine works based on the wire diagram, but the voltage regulator never worked in any of them. I have another model that appears to be wired the same and the physical size of the heat sink is easily twice as big. At the time I was hunting for a regulator/rectifier to match up to the atc350x (200w single phase). I was probably burning out the voltage regulator circuit though.

    Not super sure how to read if the power is half wave or full wave with out using an oscilloscope. If you was near I'd offer to use mine even though I probably don't have the right lead for the voltage, I just have a 1x and 10x lead.


    I'm not sure how much you've seen the aftermarket parts, but Hondaline did sell a DC power kit for the atc200. It tied into the wiring between the stator and main harness, two stator wires ran to the regulator/recitifer and the dc output went to the green/yellow wires. Yellow wire also split off and ran to the battery to charge it. I've been wanting to make a reproduction of atleast the harness and find a suitable voltage regulator/rectifier, but haven't gotten too far with that research. I do have an aftermarket regulator/rectifier that's rated for 200w single phase that *should* work well in any single phase 3 wheeler but I can't get a clear answer if it's stable with out a battery or not. They sell them for road bikes and they offer a "batteryless" version for slightly more, different wattage specs too though, I think it was 230w single phase. I figured it would be nice to sell a kit that doesn't use Chinese parts for one if my testing goes well lol.

    Either way, I probably wouldn't worry much about the light at idle, every 200 I've rode with no battery has the light get quite dim at idle and cruising rpm it's just fine, sounds like you're having the same exact effect, just the led flashes instead of getting dim. Might be bad for the power supply in the LED light, but who knows what power supply design they used.

  6. #6
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    WOW, I am so confused. Did it work? what parts did you need, a photo or part numbers would be nice. I have a 185s I want to put a L.E.D. pod light on.
    Thanks,
    MrC.- not an electrician.
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  7. #7
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    Yea it works, it just flickers at low rpm. I didn't hold back on the electrical talk since I know the ATC King knows electronics more than the average person =).

    Basically he took the 185 system and converted it to a 200es system replacing the battery with a capacitor and he made the wiring changes himself.

    To pull the same thing off, there's tons of options for DIY people, like using a 350x voltage regulator and getting a 30-50amp full wave bridge rectifier (for a power supply or similar application) and you'd be golden with no battery since I know 100% the 350x regulator is stable with out a battery.

    The basic idea is, the engine generates AC power, and LED's like DC power. *Some* LED's will work right off of AC power if it's regulated atleast (can't go over voltage), longevity and such can be questionable depending on the design. I've heard quite a few people burnt out LED lights by hooking them up to AC generating machines and I've heard of people hooking them up problem free for years.

    Hopefully this reply is a little easier to digest while still being useful. As for the parts, the OP can post if he wants, it's basically just a capacitor and some chinese voltage regulator/rectifier likely from ebay.

    This is the regulator I had bad experience with, however no one could give me power specs so I hooked it to a 200w machine, probably too much power for it. No clue if it would hold up to 50-70w.

    http://www.motopartsdealer.com/4pin-...art-p-858.html


    If you want a for sure good setup, grab a 200e/es voltage regulator/rectifier, wire it inline with the stator wires (green and yellow) to the AC input, and the two wires coming out hook the ground to green on the harness, and the postiive to yellow on the harness and you basically have a 200es system ignoring the battery. If you want the battery too (more consistant lighting, stays bright at idle etc), then the yellow wire going to the harness needs to split to go to the battery postive and add a fuse for safety. Neg of the battery just goes to the frame, engine, or if you really want, tie into the green wire going to the harness. The voltage regulator/rectifier will handle charging an atv battery, and it does the AC to DC conversion for you. The battery makes the DC clean power and basically any part that's designed to run off car power will work on the machine.

    I don't want to go the 200e/es regulator/rectifier route for the kit since there's a limited supply of them and used only.

    Good luck with the project, The biggest problem you'll have to work out is the wiring. I should make a adapter harness to use the 200es/e regulator/rectifier on the 200/185 machines some time.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrConcdid View Post
    WOW, I am so confused. Did it work? what parts did you need, a photo or part numbers would be nice. I have a 185s I want to put a L.E.D. pod light on.
    Thanks,
    MrC.- not an electrician.
    Rec/rec is just one of those $10 eBay specials. Capacitor cost more than that.

    Yes, it works. It's simple and others have done it, I'm not marching into uncharted territory. The thing I've done a little different is make a plug in harness so I don't have to modify the main one. I already had the connectors because I have other Japanese bikes and got tired of not having connectors when I wanted to add aftermarket electrical components and using parts store bullet or spade connectors just makes things look goobered up.

    Adding a reg/rec is the simplest way to get smooth DC power. Some have added a AC regulator, then a bridge rectifier near the headlight, others have made crude half wave setups just for the headlight, and some have added just a diode (half wave) and paired up multiple LED lights in series to handle the unregulated AC voltage.

    With a $10 reg/rec, why bother cobbling anything else together. Many other small engines have one end of the lighting stator grounded, which means that needs to be addressed before being able to use a full wave rectifier, but the 185/200 ATCs don't, which makes it much easier to convert to a reliable DC system, without halving the power output.


    I'll draw up a simple wiring diagram sometime.
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  9. #9
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    I'll save ya a little time, below is the Honda wire diagram, it's for the 82 atc200 but the DC power kit wiring is basically the same for all years. The pass through for the black/red wire is the difference depending on the year of the engine.

    For what machines have the floated ground on the stator vs internally grounded, the number of wires is a strong indication, but the Honda wire diagrams do show if it is or isn't. Like in the diagram below, the yellow/green wire coil doesn't go to the ground (the 3 lines under the circle), but the black wire does (exciter coil). 350x, 200x, 250r are all internally grounded. 250es/sx are 3 phase so completely different, the rest of the 185's and 200's I'm pretty sure are floated ground. I could look up the smaller models, I don't recall off the top of my head how they are setup. I do know some of the smaller ones were 6v instead of 12v based like the ATc70, ATC90, and early ATC110 (79-80).

    For the generic advice on internally grounded stators, if there's a green (ground) wire going to the stator, it's a floated ground. If it has 2 yellow wires, it's floated. If it has only one yellow or white/yellow wires, it's internally grounded. Black/red, blue/yellow, and green/white are unrelated wires.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps2fixer View Post
    Not super sure how to read if the power is half wave or full wave with out using an oscilloscope.
    Just checked today, the rectifier is full wave. My multimeter has a diode test function, and they were in the 0.5v bias range. A half wave rectifier would only have one diode, so the other leg would not. Testing a half wave would result in looking like a bad full wave if not knowing the difference. I didn't bother checking it before putting it on, because most of those I've seen are full wave. Things like riding mowers use half wave charging for the battery and the lights run off of AC. They typically just have a diode in the wire harness.

    Not a bad idea to check though. I wish you luck in getting real information from Chinese part eBay/Amazon sellers.

    I would be more hesitant to run a used 200ES reg/rec, because those are old and they do go out. I've had mine fail and I've read of many others having failed. They're just too old to gamble on and used prices for them border on stupidity when new ones are available for the same or lower price. I think I have one good spare left.

    I'll post the outcome of using the larger capacitor. The low power LEDs don't flicker at idle, it's just the main headlight and just a couple hundred RPM above idle, it's rock solid. I think the larger capacitor will help some, but it can't help if the system just won't handle that kind of draw at idle. The low power LEDs on, it's ~14.8v at idle and steady, only dropping to ~9v when the big LED is on, but goes right back to full power just above idle. No different on my 200ES, except with the battery, there is steady power, it just starts discharging at idle with the LED on high beam. Low beam is multiples brighter than the stock headlight anyway, so it's kind of getting greedy expecting it to go beyond that.

    Someone could convert to DC, put LED bulbs in the stock headlight and taillight, add a small battery, a simple on switch for the system, and they'd have a stock appearing trike with the added function of being able to use the lights with it not running and being able to charge something like a phone or other small electronics.

    I am not using stock lights. With the six-pack rack, the best taillight location which could actually be seen, was right on the back. Rock lights are these little LED pods that are for putting under 4x4 trucks, kind of like off-road neon. That's what I'm using for a taillight, and they are most certainly bright enough for that application. They're tough too, with thick aluminum, rubber mounting pad and a thick lens. Should hold up just fine.

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    I modified the stock headlight brackets to use typical one bolt aux lighting. I didn't hack a good pair of OE mounts. The sheet metal tabs had already been welded multiple times because of cracks and the weld to sheet metal ratio was out of proportion. Doing this means I kept the rubber mounting for the headlight and these machines vibrate, so that's kind of important.

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    The story of three wheels and a man...

  11. #11
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    Ironically, I've had 5 or so atc200es's and no regulator/rectiifer problems. Almost all had harness issues though, the small red wire coming out of the positive battery cable seems to rip off quite often. Probably half had engines worn out so much they smoked or didn't have enough compression to run. I think two had rear ends with the bearings shot. That's what I get for buying cheap abused parts machines lol. Oh yea, one had the cam worn so much it wasn't really a cam any more, the lobes basically didn't exist. Ironically the rocker arms seemed to have much less wear on them vs the cam in that engine, don't quite understand that one, I guess the rocker arms are made from a harder metal or something.

    That rock light is pretty neat. That's another back burner idea of mine is sourcing or creating new tail lights for the 3 wheelers that mount on the OEM tail light mount points but uses either updated light bulbs / removable sockets, or make it with an led light strip or "bulb". I think it wouldn't be too hard to design and have 3d printed, clean up the 3d print and mold it up for pour plastic molding. In theory it's fairly simple process, but I have next to no experience with that stuff sadly and I have plenty of other work to keep me busy. I know LED's are like the go to thing anymore, but there's so much lieing and garbage marketing from the Chinese market, it's hard to find quality stuff that lives up to what you'd expect from the parts. My last led "bulb" order took 2 months to receive, must have been on the extra slow boat from China. Personally don't like the end result, but I'm sure there's people out there that would love the extra white light even with the random "hot spots" like a disco ball. Besides that it eems like a good build process and my quality testing is showing it should atleast live the typical 300hr life span that most atv bulbs are rated for.

    I have too many ideas and too many projects lol. Trying to keep focused on what I have already started so things can get done.

    That light mounted up quite nice. Could use a bit of a covering around the light to make it more OEMness but it's not bad as is.

    Also I didn't think of the multi meter trick for testing the regulator/rectifier, makes sense though.

  12. #12
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    The larger cap is now installed. Too big?
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    With this one, the light still dims (slightly) at idle, but any flickering is barely noticeable, almost none. At idle, with the main light on, voltage drops to ~9.5v, and 9v is the lower operating range of the LED. Still, multitudes brighter than the stock headlight had wet dreams about. Just above idle, everything's copasetic.

    My conclusion is a battery is the only way to have 100% light at idle, but it'll still be discharged because this powerful of a light will cause the charging voltage to drop at idle, regardless. This large capacitor makes it acceptable though, without needing a battery.

    The low power taillight and, what I'm calling a DRL, have always been 100% at idle and not a bit of flicker with the smaller capacitor. The DRL is just a rock light, but it's bright enough to actually see with at night. It'll serve as a trail DRL on cloudy days without the need for using the main light and blinding the crap out of people.

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    I can't overstate how bright the headlight is.

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    I'm satisfied with it. The entire system is simple, no modifications to the main harness, no extra wiring or electronics at the headlight, plug and play, no battery, and it should be reliable.
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  13. #13
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    Reliable is always a good thing. I'd assume the headlight would be the weakest link (the power supply inside), that monster cap is well a monster lol. Should easily have a 10 year life, probably more like 20-30 year. I've seen videos of people using capacitors like that to start small cars and replacing the battery with a capacitor bank. Longer life, doesn't care about voltage so much (within range for the specs), can provide crazy high peak amp output (cranking amps in a battery context). The only down side is when it sits the caps tend to self discharge. In your setup it's not storing the starting energy, so really probably a better setup than an actual battery. I suspect the cap wasn't cheap though.

    As for the cap vs battery for the lights not flickering, you can get caps big enough to act like a battery, but yea the costs would be too much. Seems like you found a nice happy middle grounds. I've never ran the numbers, but with the known operating voltage, known amp draw, capacitor capacitance, you should be able to calculate the wave pattern an ocilloscope would see. From my understanding, in electronics, the typical setup is to step down the AC power to a lower but still higher than needed voltage in DC, store it in the cap, and the cap is big enough so the lowest dip is still higher than the needed power. Then the actual power used is regulated after that point to provide extremely clean solid DC power like for a computer. Of course the engine is designed to run at operating voltage, so makes sense at low rpm it's under voltage a bit.

    Either case, neat project, I don't see people using caps too often in projects. Not sure how caps hold up to weather and such, like riding through mud holes. I'd guess a cap over top of the terminals wouldn't be a bad idea.

  14. #14
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    What you may want to check out is super capacitors. Those are the kind that explode things like fingers that get to close. They are lower voltage and built into banks or modules, like you mentioned people doing with starting cars.

    There are smaller ultra capacitors that would work in this application, but it's approaching battery prices. The capacitor I'm using was the highest cost single item in the conversion, but still much less than any name brand lithium motorcycle battery. No way was I even considering a heavy AGM, GEL, or flooded battery for this. It was make it work as good as possible with a capacitor or go with a lithium battery.
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  15. #15
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    Update:


    It's all still working great. I've even been riding through the river with it several times and no problems.

    The capacitor isn't a battery, but even after sitting a week, the small LED will still come on a partial brightness. So, not being a battery, it isn't going to hurt it if accidentally left on. The capacitor is working.

    I do have a super capacitor on the way, but that's going on something else. Maybe once shipping is back to normal, I'll put a super capacitor on this. The only drawback is a super capacitor will have circuitry, which won't affect anything with installation, but it's more failure points.
    The story of three wheels and a man...

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