Programmable Big Red CDI

[ATC King]

I Duddits!

I finally bought one of those programmable CDIs I've been looking at for a few years.

One of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PROGCDI-R3-...YAAOSwtkFfWjmr

I did get lucky and found a used one, which saved me quite a few clams. Pay no mind to the AutoMeter stickers on it.

It's on the 200ES and running. That's as far as I've gotten with it, besides fiddling with the settings.

Out with the old...


In with the new...


That is a pic of it running. The display functions as a rudimentary tach while in operation. That 6 on the display means 600RPM, but isn't right because I probably need to switch the sensing mode.



I can confirm the adjustable rev limiter acts like suspected. I set it low and bounced the engine off of it to test. Now I can do that cool squid move and bounce the engine off the rev limiter while in neutral.

I don't have the mode switch hooked up, but with it, there are two ignition maps and two rev limiter settings.


There is no computer needed to program it and the memory is nonvolatile, so when power is cut, all the settings are still saves. On the other hand, navigating the settings with just three buttons can be a little daunting, but once figured out, it's actually quick and easy.




On the 200ES, and I guess the 250ES and 250SX, the CDI installs directly, not needing any other modules. There is a module for engines with no AC from the stator (DC systems only) and there's also a module for AC only engines (I've ordered one of those).

It needs 12V DC for the programmable part to function, but it's still fed AC from the stator and receives the signal from the pulse coil. It will auto-off after a short time once the engine stops running, or it can be powered by an on-off switch.



I'll get more into it later on, but there are a lot of functions, and not all of them in the directions I showed. On the 200ES though, everything is set to zero, because it has a mechanical advance. Zero offset on the pickup and zero timing advance. I checked this all with a timing light with stock CDI before, and this one after. I wanted to do it on the crank, but the clear tape I put over the timing hole wouldn't let me see anything when the light flashed, so I put the light on the cam advancer.

Yes, the engine is running. That's what a timing light does, it stops motion (so to speak) so you can see the marks.




Also yes, adjusting the settings on the CDI does what they are supposed to. I've managed to get it so out of wack, the engine wouldn't run or would run terrible. The stock setting WON"T work, they have to be zeroed. It either won't start or will barely run. In the future, I'll lock out the mechanical advance, so I can set it with the CDI instead. The advance can be adjusted in 1 degree increments at 500rpm intervals starting at 1,000rpm. It takes a bit to learn to interpret the display, with it's use of decimals to give more functionality to only using two numbers.


On a stock machine, it's overkill, but the rev limiter is still nice. For the price, it can't be beat. Those of you with souped up trikes, this is probably what you've been lacking to get the most of of them. Big Red big bores? Y'all may want to look into this.

With the DC conversion I've done on my 185S, this would also install directly onto that.



I can confirm that my 200ES starts easier now, but it's also smoking more. The more smoke tells me it's getting a hotter spark. Seriously, I've seen weak CDIs many times on oil burning engines and when they get a new one that's working right, the combustion is stronger and all of that oil is now being turned into smoke.

[kb0nly]

Pretty neat. I had the same experience putting one of my DIY CDI modules on some of them, they smoke like a chimney burning hotter with the better spark. A few of them i put them on they actually cleared up after a while and stopped smoking, i suspect it was burning out carbon deposits in the combustion chamber and around the exhaust valve, a good hard ride and no more smoking after it blew all the crud out it burned up.

[ATC King]

It's amazing how poor of condition one of these small, air cooled engines can be in and still run.

I've seen one that literally had oil coming out the exhaust while running, and it ran good enough to actually ride. It had been limping along on a bad CDI repair, and when it go a new one, it smoked the worst I have ever seen anything smoke (besides engines consuming coolant). Dumping a little citronella oil into it would have made it a very effective, mobile mosquito control device.

I don't think my 200ES is going to clear up though. It's been needing a rebuild for years, but I just keep torturing it.






On this CDI, I'm going to slap a degree wheel onto the trike to see how accurately it holds advance. On the 200ES, that will be easy because of the E-start and the recoil starter engagement. It has the handy little notched wheel right under the recoil cover that spins with the engine.

I'm not certain where to stow it right now, but there is enough room to jam it in next to the battery. Ideally, I'd like to install a smaller lithium battery, and put this CDI onto that with some hook and loop fasteners. That way I can quickly access it.

[red_russian1]

I've never heard of these before. Can they be used on the 2 smokers too?

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[ATC King]

Yes, it'll work on any single cylinder engine the meets the input parameters. There is a 2T and 4T setting, but I think on four strokes with the pickup trigger on the crank, it's supposed to be set to 2T for those. In that case, you'd end up with a waste spark ignition, but that'll work just fine except for wearing spark plugs a wee bit faster.


Input Parameters:

Power DC: 6/12V (maximum range of 5-16V);
+ Current consumption: up to 100mA active; 0.1mA standby;
+ Power AC: 50-300V (400V peak maximum);
+ Pickup trigger signal: 2-30V (peak, triggering on a positive rising edge, one pulse - one ignition);

There are the two modules the same company sells that make their CDI compatible with DC only and AC only systems. I'll have both of those in my hand once the last one I ordered arrives. I probably won't get around to testing the CDI with both of those and posting my installs for a long while though. I just wanted to have them handy for when I get the time.

As is, it's ready to set and forget on the 200ES, but of course I'll dicker around with it, seeing what does waht. For the price and features, I don't think there's another programmable CDI remotely close to it, and for any CDI, this thing is programmable, so instead of fussing with a handful of questionable $10 Chinese CDIs and a lot of hair pulling, it makes more sense to just go with something that can be tailored to work on a variety of engines.


The thing is well used, so they're apparently robust. That makes me feel better about buying a new one, but back to the price, all other programmable small engine CDIs are greatly more expensive. Even OEM CDIs cost as much or more tan this.

For example, check out the MSD programmable, single cylinder CDI. Everywhere I've looked, new ones are well over $300.
https://www.holley.com/products/mari...ine/parts/4217

I'm not a fan of MSD products anyway. They always seem to overcharge and underperform. There's several smaller brands of ignition components out there that consistently seem to deliver more for the money than what Holley/MSD does.

[ATC King]

I got it all tucked away and rode it a little.

Other than replacing a weak OEM CDI, there's no clear performance advantage with this one on a stock 200ES. After I lock out the mechanical advance and play around with the settings, that may change, but I doubt much. The plus is on the Honda engines with the advance on the head, the physical base timing is easy enough to change. That'll probably be fun to play with.

The rev limiter is nice. I haven't hooked up the mode switch yet, but I could see that being something to keep new riders from spinning the guts out of these, or simply showing them proper shift points while accelerating. No need to spin these to the moon between gears or run around at too high of an RPM in too low of a gear.

The mode switch could be hidden an used as an anti-theft device. Set it for just off idle, and they at least wouldn't be able to ride it away, or with any haste. The timing could purposefully be screwed up to the point it wouldn't start to begin with. Map 1, ready to ride, map 2, ain't going anywhere on it's own. A magnetic or RFI switch could be used for the mode switch, and that could make it to anytime the rider is off or away from the machine, it automatically won't start. A key of sorts, but hidden. Nothing to jam a screwdriver in, or target for bypassing the wiring.

[berlow94]

I'm interested in this for my 84 KLT250 as I have a spare motor which i'm slowly building as a high comp. fun motor.


I'm curious though, why does this require any sort of AC voltage input? The stock CDI solely gets power through 12V DC.
Are people just splicing one of the wires off their stator and splitting it between this and their regulator/rectifier?

[ATC King]

I'm curious though, why does this require any sort of AC voltage input? The stock CDI solely gets power through 12V DC.

If the stock CDI is powered with 12V DC, it has an inverter built into it.

That adds size and complexity to a CDI. You can message the seller through EBay for technical details or questions, but I'm guessing that's why they didn't build the inverter into the unit and sell that separately. Here's that part they sell: https://www.ebay.com/itm/PROGCDI-CDI...75.c101224.m-1

If using their CDI, it must have an AC ignition source. If not, it'll have to use that part listed above, which is what many DC CDIs already have built into them.

This CDI only uses 12V DC for the programmable side of it's function, and AC for the actual ignition duties. I can only refer to the unit's wiring diagram and suggest that's the only way it should be installed, and I'm guessing only AC source coils should be used, and not the AC from the charging side. It requires no additional components to use on a 200ES, because everything is there for it. If an original CDI is DC, then the inverter they sell will have to be used with it.

I have both the inverter and converter of theirs, so I can try the CDI on other engines. The items are shipped from Poland, and mine made it in on the estimated delivery date.

[berlow94]

If the stock CDI is powered with 12V DC, it has an inverter built into it.

That adds size and complexity to a CDI. You can message the seller through EBay for technical details or questions, but I'm guessing that's why they didn't build the inverter into the unit and sell that separately. Here's that part they sell: https://www.ebay.com/itm/PROGCDI-CDI...75.c101224.m-1

If using their CDI, it must have an AC ignition source. If not, it'll have to use that part listed above, which is what many DC CDIs already have built into them.

This CDI only uses 12V DC for the programmable side of it's function, and AC for the actual ignition duties. I can only refer to the unit's wiring diagram and suggest that's the only way it should be installed, and I'm guessing only AC source coils should be used, and not the AC from the charging side. It requires no additional components to use on a 200ES, because everything is there for it. If an original CDI is DC, then the inverter they sell will have to be used with it.

I have both the inverter and converter of theirs, so I can try the CDI on other engines. The items are shipped from Poland, and mine made it in on the estimated delivery date.

Maybe that’s a thing in the ATV world?
CDI’s on every other internal combustion engine I’ve used are solely powered by DC.
Not sure why it would want to use AC to run a circuit board, EPROM and charge a capacitor.

My 1984 Kawasaki KLT250 only provides 12V DC to the CDI...

I did send the seller a message. Curious for his response.
Good to hear that yours shipped in a timely fashion even though they come from Poland.
Certainly beats $400 for the MSD unit!


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[ATC King]

Not sure why it would want to use AC to run a circuit board, EPROM and charge a capacitor.

Voltage.

It bypasses a step by having a high voltage to start with.

Many small engines with CDIs are not programmable, no EPROM. They're essentially dumb, and the circuitry is very simple. The ones that are powered by DC have extra parts and complexity to accomplish the same thing done with AC.

Here's a link to a simple AC/DC CDI explanation: https://www.hotstreetscooters.com/kn...ch-one-to-use/

A Wikipedia link about DC to DC converters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC-to-DC_converter

These are needed to get the voltage up, and in them, you may find there is AC between that gets rectified back to DC, to make it all work.

It's all been thought out by the CDI manufacturer in this thread though, so that it's as simple as building a uncomplicated wiring harness to hook it all up. My biggest question is only how well the timing maps will work, which I have yet to play with, because the 200ES is still using the stock mechanical advance. It's a low stressed engine, so I doubt I'll screw too much up if I temporarily get the timing out of whack.

[ATC King]

I placed the CDI under the seat, on top of the tool box. With the tool case removed from the seat pan, I think it'll work fine. I thought I already had some adheasive backed Velco, but couldn't find it, so used double sided sticky pads instead.

All this time it's just been covered with some bubble wrap and stuffed between the battery and frame. Just one of those things I hadn't gotten to sooner.


I still need to put a degree wheel on the crank, lock out the mechanical advance, and play with the timing setting on the CDI. Kind of the reason for having a programable one and not just zeroing it out to run factory settings.

[ps2fixer]

Neat write up on the CDI. The 200 engines should be nice and simple with the 0 degree advancement =). You'll want to fully advance the advancer when you lock it in place and hopefully be able to measure the degrees difference it is so you can set the timing back to stock. Like cranking it should have 0 advancement (aka signal delayed to the normal resting angle of the pulse generator). You can actually delay the signal extra far if the hardware support it for even easier starting. That's the trick for the "easy" start engines, it fires a bit after TDC so it helps push the engine over while you're pulling it or the starter is working.

For the ATC250ES, you have the same issue, with everything 0'ed out you're going to get full advancement at cranking speed. You need to add a huge delay to the lower rpm's to get it running. Generally speaking, max advancement is about 30 degrees, and "base timing" is about 10 degrees, so if you start with a 20-25 degree delay from the pulse generator 0 point you should be able to get the 250es to fire off.

Quite a while ago I was looking into making my own CDI box, so that's kind of why I have some useful info for this xD.

I've also recently learned about speeduino, it's not a CDI based ignition system though, so you have to replace parts, but if you use the pulse generator as the trigger signal and power it off the lighting coil system, it should be able to do the same job as a CDI. Ideal setup is with a battery or some sort of energy storage to smooth the voltages out and have the power reserve for when ignition is needed since it's a 12v car style ignition. The DIY build ones are about $80 for the board + components. Case runs around $20, and I don't know if the pulse generator peak voltage can get too high for a micro controller or not, so a VR conditioner might be needed, or some other way to keep the voltages in safe limits. This this setup it would need a coil over plug ignition coil from a car, the pulse generator signal, and the power wires to power it. Tunable over usb to a laptop/desktop, or over bluetooth with a cellphone. It can do fuel systems too, so it could support EFI. The hardware and software is completely open source.

I mention speeduino because it's all brand new, price isn't crazy, and the open source nature means anyone can modify it. I've been in the demo derby community lately, so I'm using them to run car engines, a stripped down one just to run the ignition I suspect would be fairly cheap to build. AC only machines would need a voltage regulator/rectifier bare min and basically rewired.

Anyway, the programmable CDI box can only do whole degrees for timing, no decimals? The speeduino does tenths if I remember right. How many points of spark advancement can it support? I think the stock CDI's are something like 4 points, but it's all analog.

I've recently bought an oscilloscope that hooks to a laptop. The tiny bit I've used it makes me wonder how I got along with out one. being able to see signals is MASSIVE for diag and working on things. Like your CDI situation for the timing. You can set the two channels to pulse generator and CDI output and measure if there's any delay at all programmed into the stock CDI. If you mounted a crank/cam wheel and setup a sensor to pick up the angle (just a hall effect sensor + ears of a wheel), you could measure stock advancement vs static at the cam at different RPM's to build a stock tune/ignition advancement curve. On the 250es it would be easier since the pickup is static, you'd just have to read the delay difference and convert it to degrees.

Anyway, the derby market has kind of exploded my business, so I've had some funds to buy some tooling to really dig deep into this stuff (car computers and atv CDI's). I've ordered the adapters to read secondary ignition signals, so I should be able to offer assistance once I get everything on hand as long as I have spare time.

I find this thread super interesting since it lines up so well with what I've wanted to do in the past. If a good case could be found for a reasonable price, I know a guy that designs circuit boards, he could strip out all of the fuel injector circuit and such and make a speeduino designed for just controlling an ignition coil (coil over plug style, or normal 12v car style coil + igniter)

[ATC King]

I've recently bought an oscilloscope that hooks to a laptop. The tiny bit I've used it makes me wonder how I got along with out one.

Right on. They're so much more afordable than ten years ago and you can use them on just about anything. There's also transducers for measuring various things, like pressure, that you can use to expand it's capabilities even more.

They're an awesome tool to have.


About the CDI from the seller's ebay page:

Functions:
+ Two programmable map 0-60 degrees;
+ Programmable maps points in increments of 500 rpm (range 1,000 - 18,000 RPM);
+ Programmable shaft position sensor (0-60 degrees);
+ Two rev-limiters programmable in the range of 3,000 - 19,900 RPM;
+ Programmable Engine Type (2-tact / 4-tact);
+ Output RPM signal (MODE wire);
+ Presentation of current engine speed;
+ Optional divider of displayed and output RPM by 1/2/3/4;
+ Both functions available on the MODE cable simultaneously;
+ Auto Power Down Mode;


I don't remember how many points are programable, I'd have to look again at the instructions. The goog thing about it being on the 200ES is the way the pull start mech is outside of the enclosed engine space and it has electric start. It'll be clean and easy to attach a degree wheel to...whenever I get a round tuit.

[ps2fixer]

I suspect the timing will be spot on or very close. It's high rpm when things tend to drift, and even the timing light can be a big factor on that since it also takes time to light up and such. I don't know if the effect is slow enough to throw off readings at say 8k rpm or not though. LED's are extremely fast, I'd guess probably faster than an old school style timing light, so it might be slightly more accurate. Either case, that's one tool I don't have currently is a timing light. Everything I work with is static pickups, so I think the oscope should work pretty well to compare signals. Of course a timing light is a fair bit simpler to use.

It would be interesting to delay the spark for the 200es by 5 or so degrees more than stock to see if the easy start effect is noticeable.

For the oscilloscope, technically speaking, any sensor could hook up to it and as long as you have a spec sheet, you'd be able to take measurements. Might require a bit of supporting circuitry. Like temp sensor is resistance based, but with a 5v reference and a voltage divider it could be calculated based on the voltage reading. The scope I got has a dev kit, so I could build my own software for it as well which is really neat. In the derby side of things, I'd be looking to extract stock timing and fuel mapping from a running engine for the base of a tune for it running a speeduino. My first ones will just be guess and check effectively and using a wide band o2 sensor to dial it in.

The bare min to EFI an engine isn't a whole lot. Need the injector of course, crank/rpm signal and a way to meter how much air is getting into the engine. Ideally temp, tps, and map would be used, but it can run on purely tps and should be similar to a carb tune once dialed in. Major temp changes or elevation changes might effect the tune more than a carb though. A MAP would help with those effects, then it's just hot vs cold air, which on these engines shouldn't effect too much I don't think.

Anyway, will be interesting to see progress on your project. I wouldn't mind doing similar with the automotive parts.

For my scope, I have a couple 20x attenuators coming, so can read max of about 400v (I wonder if they could be stacked and if it would be 40x or 400x). Also have an inductive pickup to read secondary coil voltages (10,000x). Eventually I'd like to get one of the amp clamps, I could see cases where that would be really interesting to see.

One machine that would be really interesting to check out is the voltage and amps of the 85 atc350x stator, then compare it to the 86 version, then to aftermarket. With this proper tooling, it's possible to read ignition voltages and such too, so if someone is claiming a hotter spark, the coil should draw more amps, and show a higher peak voltage. Real new to seeing that stuff live though, so would really need to lean more about them before posting anything about it. If I built the automotive style ignition, I could do the same readings and compare. I suspect the automotive ignition coil will give the best performance, EFI ignition voltages can reach some really crazy levels.

Btw, I've always had an oscilloscope, it's just the old CRT style one that isn't exactly portable. I've only used it a few times and have had it since 2005 lol. The new portable one I've already used as much or more.

[El Camexican]

English please!