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Thread: 350x cdi? and other 350x questions.

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Sounds like you might have a Chinese multi meter if it was like $6 it's probably a junk one that can't make accurate measurements. If it's not a super cheap one, the battery might be dead that can make it read real funky some times. You shouldn't see the values jumping all over the place or anything. Should be able to read it, take the probes off and hook them back up and get a similar reading. The reading vs 200 and 2000 ohm setting shouldn't be wildly different, but probably around +/- 10%, you're readings are showing like a 80% swing.

    Anyway, stator voltage seems pretty much in the area I'd expect. The coil reading is real hard to be sure but the fact it's putting anything out shows the CDI is doing something and the pulse generator is good enough to trigger the CDI. Half of the fight could be the "ebay" in your message that basically means no name China. Sometimes they can work, a lot of times they don't work right, and sometimes they don't work at all, all in the name of no quality control or integrity.

    Here's the OEM coil brand new, if you went this route I'd suggest replacing the spark plug cap as well.

    https://www.partzilla.com/product/ho...7cbed5ce5b88a8

    https://www.partzilla.com/product/ho...7cbed5ce5b88a8

    Anyway, I recall you testing parts from a foreman, if that machine runs, you could try to swap the ignition coil over to that machine from the 350x to validate that it at least functions. You could also take similar readings on it to get a rough idea what a working machine would read, The only exception is I'm not sure if your machine has the DC CDI or AC CDI. TRX350 vs TRX350D, the CDI type was the opposite on those machines from the same era. Coil should work on both though since I'd expect the output would be similar to the 350x.

    The voltage reading on the coil wire kind of makes me think it's the output of the CDI that could be the issue, but it's a very short pulse vs a "normal" AC power sine wave. Getting a used 350x CDI box and an OEM ignition coil and I suspect it should run. Also you mentioned an ebay stator, I'd be fearful that it's not balanced right big time with all the other 3rd party parts, but I have zero experience with them. Did the stator come with the fly wheel? There's 2 designs of the stator and fly wheel, so they must match together or you'll run into issues.

    Photos would be interesting as well since sometimes I can see something in the photos that could be causing the problem. Like if the handle bar controls were replaced, the kill switch operation could be backwards from normal.

  2. #17
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    Jul 2005
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    thank you for your insight.
    guilty on the 6 dollar harbor frieght multi meter
    as far as I know, it's a stock stator in both motors
    the ebay parts is just the cdi and it came with a new coil so I tried it and got nothing
    I did try the 350foreman coil and got nothing
    hopefully this weekend I'll pull the cover off the spare motor and swap it over to the trike. I don't have a extra factory cdi to try.
    if the wires aren't broke, I imagine it's only the stator, pulse generator, coil or cdi.
    I did hook the black wire to the switch but left the other 3 wires unhooked. I believe the brown green and white wires are just for the lights. Looking at the schematics, it looks like I can leave the black wire unhooked too. jim
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

  3. #18
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    Yep, the kill wire shorts to ground for off, so for getting spark it can be disconnected.

    Harbor freight might be a touch better Chinese stuff, but view it as a tool, that's a $6 tool set vs name brand running $50, and higher end professional running $100-200 to put a little context on it. To put the same ratios in effect if a brand new F250 truck is $45,000 and say it's the $100 version of the tool, the Harbor freight one would be like a brand new F250 Chinese made for $2700. I know not everything is 100% quality is tied to price, but general rule of thumb is you get what you pay for.

    Here's the 85 style stator and flywheel. On the fly wheel note the line inside the drum as a good sign for that version.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/384944384034

    This is the 86 style stator and fly wheel. Stator you can clearly see the difference, the fly wheel I look at the outer lip, looks like it has a snap ring around it and of course no line inside the drum like the 85 style.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/384859799313

    As long as fly wheel and stator type matches it will work, the 86 style works better generally, I haven't personally tested it but I think it puts out a higher exciter coil voltage similar to newer models so aftermarket CDI's and such seems to work better on them.


    When you mentioned the ebay parts, I expected them to be brand new off ebay which is like 95% of the time Chinese crap. I don't personally buy new stuff on amazon or ebay because they are also plagued with fake Chinese parts too. Here's a prime example but there's known fake spark plugs, cabin filters, and such. I'm sure it's not just Toyota parts they fake. Some people I've talked to claim NGK and Denso plugs are junk, I think their experience is with the Chinese fake junk though as I've ran them for 10+ years in Jap engines and never had a bit of problem from them. I put like 80k miles on standard spark plugs in my corolla with it burning oil.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEWb0491JdQ


    Anyway, for the foreman thing, I was asking to go in reverse, try the 350x coil you have on the foreman.

    There's not much to the ignition system on these, so yea, stator, flywheel (together they are an alternator), CDI box, ignition coil, pulse generator, and the wiring is the list of ignition related parts. Kill switch of course is part of it but just disconnecting it "bypasses" it. Here's a visual on the system.




    On the side of multi meters, here's a cheap one that works pretty well. It's not my fav at all kind of slow and not a huge fan of the auto ranging stuff but the price point is reasonable.

    https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c...eter/inn0/3320

    Here's a similar multi meter used from likely the 90's back when radio shack was an electronics (like build electronics) store. I've been using one of these since I was a teen, they were like $20-25 back then new lol. They do auto ranging as well so a bit of a learning curve there with how to read it, but it's generally pretty quick for readings, beep mode and such.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/125754875683

    To compare, here's a higher end multi meter for someone that would be doing this type of stuff daily. It should be on par or better than Fluke (there are different grades for them as well)

    https://www.eevblog.com/product/eevb...86-multimeter/

    Here's a manual range selection meter that would be similar to the one you got, the one I used was really cheap feeling but it did function alright. Not sure what ever happened to that thing though. Manual range selection is nice for easy of use for instructing people how to make a reading, but auto range is basically the standard today so I don't think there's too many quality meters with manual range section any more.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/144892722755

  4. #19
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    Jul 2005
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    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...c53oOJwUEeZcp7
    this is the one I bought, ill stop and get one at orielys today. jim
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim mac View Post
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...c53oOJwUEeZcp7
    this is the one I bought, ill stop and get one at orielys today. jim
    If they are anything like the black ones on ebay, they are complete garbage. I bought like 6 of these of ebay when they where $6, used them basically one and threw them in the trash. I've had 2 or 3 sets of probes fall apart, the tips are coated with that China metal that is horrible for conducting (sanding it off down to the brass it works way better). The same coating is on the side that goes into the multi meter too so have to cut the plastic off and sand down the contacts there. Doing all of that and it can read fairly stable results but can't read anything under like 20 ohms accurately. Shorting the probes together should give 0.00 ohm reading or extremely close. Before I sanded the china ones down, they'd read like 20-100 ohms (in the 200 ohm setting), after sanding I was reading around 6 ohms which ran pretty consistent so in theory a 7.5 ohm reading would be 1.5 ohms, but I never validated if that's an accurate way to treat that base line. I think I also took the multimeter apart and sanded the rotary dial contacts too. It's been a while since I did all the work to make it usable.

    China wire really shows their integrity in the products, they use super thick insulation and very little copper wire, so a wire that looks like it's 18 gauge is actually like 26 gauge, that's the main reason the probes fell apart on me, there was so little copper it easily broke since no strain relief at the probes and their rubber/plastics tend to be pretty bad.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/132290173079?epid=1201525275

    On the demo derby side of things, I bought some Chinese reproductions of Japanese style connectors for cars, and they worked out alright. Same supplier I bought GM style connectors from, and they were so bad I couldn't use them. They wanted me to photo and give proof of each bad defective connector when the whole batch was defective. I had like $300 in connectors that I couldn't use. I've since switched to 100% OEM connectors whenever possible, might cost 10x more, but I don't have to worry about the connectors falling apart on customers. I'm pretty much done messing with the China stuff, once in a while you can find something that isn't complete garbage, but when you have to buy 10 to find 1 good one, you're better off just buying the original at the 10x china price.

    Harbor Freight does have a name behind it, so the Chinese stuff they sell generally is a touch better quality but some of their stuff is complete garbage you'd want to avoid, some of their stuff is quite good for the price point. I have several of their Pittsburgh tool sets that normally go on sale for $100. The last one I got the quality dropped on though. The sockets, ratchets, and wrenches seem to be pretty good, haven't broken one yet. I've broken the old USA made craftsman tools. I'm sure they aren't built as good as a name brand high end tool, but it seems on par with the Chinese home owner grade at least (modern day craftsman for example I say these are better than but the Chinese ones aren't 1/10th the price either).

    Anyway, kind of side tracked a bit on the China topic, but there's too may people blindly going for the cheapest thing. It drives the good quality companies out of business. That's one of the main reasons I'm not really in the atv parts industry now, flooded with Chinese crap and people buy that stuff up like crazy even though the parts don't even fit right instead of the part I sell for about 2x the price that fits right and won't have issues for much longer (still 25-50% of OEM prices if it's even made yet).


    Anyway, it's not so much the source of the product that's the issue, the actual brand, who makes it is. Like the Innova one I linked before, I have the same one so I know the probes aren't complete garbage and it holds readings that appear to be accurate. I've seen the garbage ones for sale at parts stores too and are the ones to avoid. I bought one of those $5 analog meters before just to have the analog style, very very cheaply built (what do you expect for $5). I basically never used it since it's so nice having a digital read out instead of guessing the reading based on where the needle is.

    I do know the craftsman multimeters are to be avoided, $30 marked up with a name brand $6 junk China meter. Bought it from a store that was going out of business for like 75% off. I figured the big name on it would mean there would be some type of quality, but I guess craftsman doesn't care about that any more. I think the big problem is, companies get away with making them garbage because most people don't know why they get such weird readings that range all over the place, so they don't blame the tool for the issues.


    Anyway, once you get a multi meter and validate it it consistently get 0.00 ohm reading by shorting the probes together (could do that right in the store after buying it, it should be calibrated new), then getting the following readings would be interesting:

    Black/red to green at stator connectors
    Green/white to blue/yellow at stator connectors
    between the two posts on the ignition coil with it disconnected
    secondary coil for the ignition coil (spark plug to one of the posts, can't remember which one, I think it's the black wire side) - there's no spec for this, but should be roughly 8.5k-10k ohms

    Extra reading that could be interesting would be the spark plug cap, it should unthread from the coil wire and you'd read on each side, normally they are around 5k ohms. Lower isn't really a problem for it to run, but higher, or no connection could make for a no spark situation too.

    Of course the ohm readings isn't everything possible to go wrong, but it should be the most common faults. The fly wheel to pulse generator gap is another factor, non adjustable but it's possible for it to get bent. Had one person that had that issue before, machine would run but wasn't very crisp and that gap was bigger than normal. They bent it tighter and ran as good as their other machine. Stator gap is the other factor, which is basically having the matching stator + fly wheel type, and of course spark plug gap could be a factor too.

  6. #21
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    Jul 2005
    Location
    az
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    okay, went and boigjt a 35 dollar multi meter.
    my pulse generator was reading a little high so I swapped the spare pulse generator read 330. original one read 370. stator reads at 79. I tried the original coil, foreman coil and the coil that came with the ebay cdi.
    I'm wondering if the goki starter gear could be messing with the pulse generator pickup?
    I need a larger bolt to pull the flywheel off, I'm thinking of just swapping the flywheel.
    I did check the black/white black yellow wires to male sure they weren't broken or shorted. The switch has been unplugged. jim
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    az
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    I saw your previous post about using a 400ex cdi, went and ordered a factory used one off ebay to hopefully find out if the black China ones really are junk. will report back when it gets here. jim
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    4,114
    I don't recall if the 400ex CDI has the same pinout or not, I did a lot of shuffling pins around on my 350x harness testing different CDI's. I probably mentioned about that in my post though.

    A reading of 370 ohms vs max allowed reading being 363 I'd count as within spec, big time if it's hot where you're at since those figures are likely around 70F. Hotter the coils get, the higher the ohms it reads, lower the temp the lower the ohms is, that's why there's a range, that and each one might have a slightly different length of wire in the coil.

    Do you have a TRX350? You have a coil from one so I figure you have the rest of the machine?

    Stator reading sounds about the same as my 350x's both with the 85 style stator. I remember it being in the 70's like 75 ohms.

    Looking like the ohm figures are pretty well in check. How's the ignition coils test for ohms?


  9. #24
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    coil read 4.26 and 1.2
    I bougjt the foreman mainly for a spare cam for my 350x. I stripped the head, cylinder, wiring, and every nut and bolt off it then sent it to the scrap yard
    this is the post that got me to order a 400 ex cdi
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...pOyBbEpKuf2yiE
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

  10. #25
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    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    Why does every link you post route through google? Like why not link directly? Just kind of confusing seeing a google link then it goes to 3ww lol.

    Looks like that thread I'm basically saying the pinout is the same or I forgot to mention if it matches for those since it's in the "bonus" section.

    Sucks about the trx350, some of the bottom end parts work on atc250es/sx too. The side cover for example would fit a 350x even though it's extra wide for the clutch, don't remember if there's any wearable surfaces that are different but the bolt pattern is the same. The rear axle is worth $$$ too, the guys mud bogging the TRX300's like to upgrade to the TRX350/D rear ends or ATC250ES. Diff alone is worth $200+ pretty easily.


    Coil specs seem to be pretty far out, 0.2 ohms is the max, looks like you're reading 1.2 ohms (6x higher resistance). How does the other coils you have measure up?

    Looked up the specs for the TRX350 and TRX350D, looks like with out spark plug cap it's pretty similar specs, my guess with the spark plug cap on wasn't too far off too =). Also note the top row, standard is at 68F, clearly you can't perfectly measure at that temp, so being outside of the range a little bit is no problem if it lines up with the temp difference.

    FYI, Fourtrax has the AC CDI and an exciter coil, Foreman has the DC CDI and no exciter coil.


  11. #26
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    I'm really dont know about linking old stuff. I usually hold my finger over whatever link I was reading and the drop down says copy link address then I hit paste.
    I'll double check the other coils, pretty sure they read lower
    but will post up.
    Really appreciate all the help.
    The 350d I did donate the rearend to another trike guy who wanted it for his SX. jim
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

  12. #27
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    Jul 2005
    Location
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    I've tried multiple plugs but I haven't tried pulling the boot off the wire and checked spark without the boot. jim
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    USA
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    4,114
    I see, must have some sort of google plugin or something, to me it looks like a tracking url for them to try to make more money with their data collection, but that's another topic lol. I guess the big thing is it works.

    The ohm reading is a bit off for no spark plug cap, since it was within spec I figured you pulled it off. It's not super common, but sometimes the end of the spark plug wire goes bad and cutting off a little bit (like 1/4 in) and screwing the spark plug cap back in refreshes things pretty well, but ideally the multimeter would show the no connection situation for that too.

  14. #29
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    Jul 2005
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    I did remove the cap and got readings. I looked at my notes the other coil was .4 and 4.26
    of course it was 74* out yesterday so a great time to work on the trike. woke up this morning and it's snowing!!!

    it was so easy trouble shooting my 84 200x, I had 1 running and 1 that had starting running issues. checked everything to the running one, and found a out of spec stator. jim
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    az
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    talking to a bike guru. the motor on the 350x is sitting in the frame with the bottom bolt loosely stuffed in, motor rocks when kicking it, can a bad ground cause this issue? jim
    81 185s
    82 185s with 85 200s motor
    suspended 185s
    85 atc70
    1984 200s
    85 350x 3rd owner
    and a 72 ct70

    projects coming along

    85 200s
    81 suspended 185s (can't believe I came across 2)
    1982? 185s

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