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Thread: i need some help??? :? my 200es atc honda big red wont start

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    i need some help??? :? my 200es atc honda big red wont start

    i have a 1984 honda atc 200es big red i cant get it to start it has spark. but its like it isnt getting gas :?: well whoever can help me out please email me at cartmans2005@bellsouth.net
    thanks
    cartmans2005
    cartmans2005@bellsouth.net

  2. #2
    Lots_Of_Nothing's Avatar
    Lots_Of_Nothing is offline So bombed at TF I needed both hands to hold my beer Teaching quads a lesson
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    does the tank have gas in it?, are your carb jets clean?, is your gas line clogged?, is your fuel filter clogged?
    Give me no lip and I tell you no lie.

    -TF 05' , And cant wait till 06!


  3. #3
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    Jan 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84ATC250R
    does the tank have gas in it?, are your carb jets clean?, is your gas line clogged?, is your fuel filter clogged?
    i have gas in my tank i just rejetted my carb gas line is clean fuel filter brand new
    cartmans2005@bellsouth.net

  4. #4
    ATCnut is offline Got The Holeshot Arm chair racerJust too addicted
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    First question is why did you rejet? Did you change something else like air cleaner or exhaust? What was the jet before? Did you jet up or down?

    Your trike has electric start, so after cranking it for 30 sec with the choke full on, pull the plug. Is it wet with gas? It should be, if its not, you have a fuel problem somewhere. If its dry, loosten the float bowl drain screw and see if gas starts peeing out on the ground. If it does then the problem is in the carb. If it does not, the the problem is the float, or a obstruction somewhere between the tank and the carb. If its wet, put in a new plug

    When you say you have spark, is it good and strong? Honda trikes are notorious for being picky about the plug. I have solved many hard starting problems with a new plug, good thing they are cheap.
    ATCnut

    82 185s - sold
    83 200x (hopped up)
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    84 70 (lost this one to the DMV)
    85 70 (soon to have lights, a foot brake, and CDI ignition)
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    86 250sx (an even nicer tractor)
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    87 250es Big Red (the tank!!)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATCnut View Post
    First question is why did you rejet? Did you change something else like air cleaner or exhaust? What was the jet before? Did you jet up or down?

    Your trike has electric start, so after cranking it for 30 sec with the choke full on, pull the plug. Is it wet with gas? It should be, if its not, you have a fuel problem somewhere. If its dry, loosten the float bowl drain screw and see if gas starts peeing out on the ground. If it does then the problem is in the carb. If it does not, the the problem is the float, or a obstruction somewhere between the tank and the carb. If its wet, put in a new plug

    When you say you have spark, is it good and strong? Honda trikes are notorious for being picky about the plug. I have solved many hard starting problems with a new plug, good thing they are cheap.
    Hi, having the same problem. Fitted new timing chain, tensioner, advancer, plug and carb but still nothing. Replaced wiring loom and battery and is sparking well, good compression too, but when I remove the plug after turning over for 30 seconds with choke, the plug is dry. It has some residue of fuel, but very little. When I remove float bowl drain screw fuel pours through. Its a new carb, so any ideas what to try next.

    I had thought this was a CDI issue, but I want to make sure I'm getting fuel before I try to find one of those!

    Its a 1984 200ES by the way, and I should add I've never had it running, but can't accept that it won't run, it can't be that complicated?

    Thanks

  6. #6
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    I know a guy who brought his 200es to me because of a no start issue. Had the same issues you are describing, i ended up taking off the cab and cleaning even though he said he had cleaned it. It does not take much to clog the small passages on these carbs. I let it soak in my special solution (i call it "the sauce") after disassembly and then made sure every thing was clean by using compressed air. He also thought it was a spark issue, it had very weak spark, but that was just a bad plug. After the carb clean and plug replacement it started right up, hasn't had issues since. I see a decent amount of 200es and 200s trikes that go through plugs very quickly. I saw it was said above, but make sure you have a good plug, if it isnt an NGK, get rid of it and by the correct NGK plug. Some times the CDIs do go bad, I have never tried to fix them, so i cannot talk about that, if they go bad try to find a replacement.
    Currently owned:
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeless Dave View Post
    I know a guy who brought his 200es to me because of a no start issue. Had the same issues you are describing, i ended up taking off the cab and cleaning even though he said he had cleaned it. It does not take much to clog the small passages on these carbs. I let it soak in my special solution (i call it "the sauce") after disassembly and then made sure every thing was clean by using compressed air. He also thought it was a spark issue, it had very weak spark, but that was just a bad plug. After the carb clean and plug replacement it started right up, hasn't had issues since. I see a decent amount of 200es and 200s trikes that go through plugs very quickly. I saw it was said above, but make sure you have a good plug, if it isnt an NGK, get rid of it and by the correct NGK plug. Some times the CDIs do go bad, I have never tried to fix them, so i cannot talk about that, if they go bad try to find a replacement.
    Thanks for the reply. Yes put in a new correct NGK plug and a new carb, so expect it to be clean. Turns over very well and good spark, but just won't fire. I put a little fuel and some easy start in the plug hole and then put the plug back in a turned over. Again no fire, although got a little blow back through the carb.
    I guess that could sparking on the downstroke due to faulty CDI?
    BTW I have the muffler off, and no air filter but I would still expect it to fire?

    Any other ideas before I bite the bullet and order the replacement CDI?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave409787 View Post
    Thanks for the reply. Yes put in a new correct NGK plug and a new carb, so expect it to be clean. Turns over very well and good spark, but just won't fire. I put a little fuel and some easy start in the plug hole and then put the plug back in a turned over. Again no fire, although got a little blow back through the carb.
    I guess that could sparking on the downstroke due to faulty CDI?
    BTW I have the muffler off, and no air filter but I would still expect it to fire?

    Any other ideas before I bite the bullet and order the replacement CDI?
    It should still fire even with the muffler off and air filter, probably wont run right but should still least show a sign of life. If you have spark, and good compression, check the Pulse generator and make sure its gapped right and is clean. Also make sure someone didn't install it upside down / 180 degrees out which would cause improper timing of the spark similar to what you mentioned. Another thing to check is the timing markings with the flywheel and ensure its on proper timing if you haven't done that already. Engines are simple in that regard, proper spark, fuel and air and it will run

  9. #9
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    Check your valve clearances. It sounds to me like your issue is there. If it's blowing back through the carb, either your intake valve isn't closing enough or your exhaust valve isn't opening enough. Some people say that they have good luck with the new Chinese carbs, but most seem to have problems ranging from making adjustments to they're junk out of the box. OEM is usually the best way to go.

  10. #10
    Scootertrash's Avatar
    Scootertrash is offline Just Too Addicted: Protecting Our Community Lord of the trike
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeless Dave View Post
    I let it soak in my special solution (i call it "the sauce") after disassembly and then made sure every thing was clean by using compressed air.
    Recipe for "The Sauce"?
    Who is Q?

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  11. #11
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    Assuming the above hasn't helped (carb, fuel flow from tank, etc), there's a few other things to keep in mind.

    You need compression to fire, does the engine feel like it has good compression? Better test is to do a compression test if you have the tester. This tells you if there's ring or valve issues. These aren't brigs engines, they should be pretty high compression, 100psi is low, in fact spec is 142-171 psi.

    https://atvmanual.com/honda/atc200es/1984-specs

    Spark on it's own can be tricky, generally speaking white/blue spark is good, but it's not guanteed to be good. Yellow/orange spark is 100% weak though (when testing with a new plug). There's a proper tool for testing the spark, it needs to jump a 6mm gap (1/4 in) to be counted as good and some engines can go 8mm+ (above is spec is fine, below is bad/weak). The reason for the huge gap is because inside the cylinder there's a lot more air for the spark to jump through (compression), and also a mix of fuel misted in the air.

    Assuming compression and spark is good, the next thing I'd look at is ignition timing, which requires a timing light. The service manual explains the process the best, but basically the timing mark should line up with the "F" line on the flywheel. It's possible the timing is off, or even 180 degrees off at the cam.

    Of course, follow the advice above first, it's much more common to have fuel related problems.



    Also @Dave409787

    You would be best off making a new thread for your issue, the original post is from 2003 and most people are focused on helping the first poster, not yours which is mixed in the middle and you might get a better response to your exact situation.

  12. #12
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    Thank you all for your responses. I will start a new thread if no joy from the below, but it seems I'm getting some great advice here and don't want ot double up before responding to you guys.

    @SteveRoll. Compression feels good, I haven't tested it, but the mechanic who was working on it told me he had. It feels good through the pull start. I could buy a test kit to check? I bought a new timing advance, chain and tensioner as the old one was worn, but the pulse generator was ok. I'll give it another clean, and check the gap. Should it just be a couple of bits of paper gap? Would a larger gap cause a problem even though I'm still getting spark? The cables are fairly worn, but are still taking current so I've not messed with those?

    Timing wise, the mechanic who I had working on it told me he had set the ignition and cam timing. Is there a foolproof way for me to check its right, as I've exhausted by finances for any more professional work. Can a faulty CDi through the timing out?


    @350for350 The mechanic told me he did all the valve clearances, as he had taken the top end off to replace the timing chain tensioner. This is something I don't know how to check. Is it simple? Do I need special tools?

    Regarding the carb, there is no reason to think my old original one has any issues, but the mechanic suggested I try a new one. I'll clean up the old one and pop it back on. Is there a simple test to see if fuel is getting through to the plug? Am I best to just remove it and try and get the bike to fire with fuel straight into teh barrel, and then once that is sorted pop the carb back on?

    @PS2fixer
    When you say its possible the timing is off, 180 degrees at the cam, is this something that would be obvious, or would this mean that the timing line matched up with the F could then still be wrong? Is this why a timing light would be needed? It does feel like it is timing related, don't ask me why I think that. I thought this CDI change would magically fix that, but it seems from what you are all saying the CDI can't adjust the timing?

    Therefore I need a fool proof way to make sure I'm checking the timing is right... and the valve clearance. Shame none of you guys live nearer me!!! :-) But thank you all again, it will run again and I will have my dream of running a 3 wheeler. (Its the only one on the island I live and I've been looking for one for years!)

  13. #13
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    Thanks you all for your responses. I wrote a long response back to each of you with questions... which I then refreshed my page before posting... so instead I thought I'd you tube some videos of how to check valves and timing as I'd paid a mechanic to do these things and so wanted to rule them out myself first before buying more parts.

    I cam across a video that showed the aligned of the magnet on the spark advancer in relation to the notch on the back. I couldn't imagine this would be the problem as I'd bought a new one so the chances of both being wrong was slim... or so I thought. It was wrong. Possibly the mechanic had changed it to match the one he removed? Anyway, I switched it over, checked the timing, and first crank it ran like a charm.

    Bolted the flywheel cover back on and nothing. tried everything to get it to start again, and it was a simple as the kill switch being off, although it still cranked and the lights were on it didn't fire. Anyway in short, it lives. Took it round the block, all gears work, everything seems good and she purs like she's new. Amazing given how long it hasn't run for and how many owners have had a go over the last few years, the wonders of the internet, so thank you all. Its a shame I replaced so many parts that were probably fine, but I still have them, so may put the original carb back on, but for now whilst its running I'm gonna tidy it up and get it looking good.

    Is there anything I should really sort after its not run for so long. I've put fresh oil in, timing chain and tensioner, plug, wiring etc. Is there gearbox oil or diff oil to change?

  14. #14
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    Engine and trans shares the same oil. The rear diff has gear lube in it, never hurts to check it's level and change if it has any milky look to it (after a short ride), or if it's getting dark. Be sides that, it's just typical stuff like check wheel bearings, axle bearings, steering stem bearings, etc.

    It sounds like you might not have a service manual, here's a site to grab a copy.

    http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

    The service manual has a whole table of maintenance items and how often they need to be checked, inspected, or changed.

    Besides the typical stuff, if an engine has sat a long time, it's possible it could have built up a light layer of rust in the cylinder and the rings might have to break in again. Generally it's advisable to treat the engine nice for a bit as if it's a freshly built engine. Like my dad sold a guy an IH (international harvester) to a guy that needed an engine for a school bus. It sat a long time but was a good engine. The guy put it in the bus and beat the snot out of it. Ended up killing the engine within a week of having it, didn't even change the oil. I can't recall exactly how the engine died, I'm thinking it was overheated and seized up.

    Anyway, grats on getting it running and moving, hopefully all goes well from here on out with it.

  15. #15
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    The engine and transmission both use the same oil. There is differential fluid since you have a 200ES. You changed the oil, but did you clean the oil rotor on the clutch side of the engine? As for the engine issues (I'm in no way badmouthing the mechanic that you had do the work), you can never tell what some people will do. The engine on my AutoX came off of a 1981 ATC200.
    It would always blow some black smoke out of the exhaust when I opened the throttle all the way quickly like it was running rich so I was trying to lean out the main jet. I finally wanted to check the cam out. When I opened it all up, I found out that the cam timing was quite a bit off from the mark at TDC. The CDI timing was spot on when compared to the crank so I rotated the CDI plate as far as I could clockwise an it just brought the CDI in time with the cam. I was in a hurry so I left it like that. It now runs much better and I was able to richen the main jet back up. Someday, I still need to put the cam back in time with the crank. Now, how somebody managed to do all of that, I'll never know.

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