Atc 4 Me

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

BigRedHead,

I never really thought(at the time) that the Tigers were ever much comparison to a Honda. I know they put on a small effort and team, but I can't recall if they ever were truely competitive.

I don't think anyone racing a Tiger EVER beat me in a race!

I never rode one, so I can't give you any data on performance or handling.

Sorry, but thats all I can say about them.

Mike

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Jeb,

To me, the 200 class turned into a real mess. I don't understand how it got so controversial because I tried to concentrate on my racing the 250 and open classes.

In reality, and by the AMA rules, 2 stroke 200cc trikes should not have been allowed to race against the 4 strokes to begin with.

Curtis and other 4 stroke 200cc riders were instantly at a disadvantage against a sleeved down Tecate. Look at todays MX racers. A 4 stroke is allowed DOUBLE the 2 strokes displacement! Curtis and other 4 stroke guys SHOULD have been able to race bored out ATC 350X's aginst the 2 strokes!!

The Honda 2 stroke 200's were clearly "works" like, and were faster than anything in their class, and nearly as fast as our 250's!! Steve Wright was never talented enough to ride this trike to it's potential, (IMHO) and thats why the Kawasaki guys were still more than competitive in that class.

[mad_max]

Mike,

Do you know what became of the ATC's when Honda dismantled the race team?
Were they junked? I saw a pic of what was supposedly a former Team Honda race ATC and the information with the pic said that the guy who raced it (forget the name but it wasnt Sundahl ) was allowed to buy it from Honda when they quit racing.
Do you remember if this was a common occurrence?

Thanks for the great stories!
Max

[250rAL]

Mike, knowing what you know now, would you have stayed with your sponsors and not raced for Honda?

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

mad_max,

There were a few Honda employees that were able to purchase used and former ATC team 3 wheelers. As I recall they were not available to the general public. Many were disposed of too. (crushed) Now they would be considered a score! But at the time these trikes were definately USED HARD AND PUT AWAY DIRTY.

250rAl,

If I would have known EARLIER, most definately. The factory teams always want to get the contract negotiations and budgets set well in advance of the racing calendar.

Honda knew that if they sprang the surprise of having to run all Hondaline accessories like they did, Kawasaki would have already been set and unable to support another rider or two. Yamaha and Suzuki were not players in the world of 3 wheeler racing. It was Honda vs. Kawasaki only.

It was smart business for Honda, but unprofessional towards the riders. Like others have mentioned in these posts, I was living out a childhood fantasy of someday riding for the BIG TEAM. But like in Ricky Carmichael's and Jeremy McGrath's cases too, Honda was really pushing as to what they felt was necessary to get their moneys worth out of the racing team/riders.

Even though I got the shaft on not winning the title in 1985, up until that time I was living out my wildest dream! I have lifelong memories and the good times far outweigh the bad!

For other kids it may be like playing baseball for the New York Yankees! There was really nothing I/we could do but comply if we wanted to race for Honda in 1985.

[Dammit!]

BUT, NO quad was ever as fast or as cool or handled as well as my Honda ATC 250R!!

I think that needs to be quoted again.

BUT, NO quad was ever as fast or as cool or handled as well as my Honda ATC 250R!!

Oh hell one more time.

BUT, NO quad was ever as fast or as cool or handled as well as my Honda ATC 250R!!

[catfish]

Mike, you said that you wished that the interview would be published now...... would it be inappropriate to get Dirtwheels to do an interview with you and expose all this now? I know you feel better getting it all off your chest here, but what about letting everyone know what happened. I'm sure there's many people out there that raced back then that still follow the racing scene and don't know about this site. It would just be nice to read all of this in a magazine. You may not want all the publicity, but it may work out good for you. You can't never tell what might come out of it. Although, I hope it don't bring up any legal issues. In Honda's contract, did they say that you couldn't talk about any of the going's on within the Team? You know, like exposing any secrets and such. Surely after all this time it won't matter. Another thing though, Honda probably has a big influence on Dirtwheels, so they probably wouldn't print it anyway.

[Curtis-Tecate3]

Mike,

Just curious after re-reading your posts..

"The cylinder that we chose for this race was a VERY custom reworked WORKS cylinder. The transfer ports were all epoxied up and recontoured and were VISIBLY modified. There was a boat load of work done to this cylinder! Chuck Miller my mechanic (and now current Honda Race Team Manager!) was convinced that the trike was clearly the best we had had for the season. The stopwatch doesn't lie! "

I assume that the "WORKS" stuff came direct from Japan but you mentioned that is had been "reworked". Can you share the details of this particular motor. You mentioned that Harry Klemm had been secretly cooperating with you that season and I was curious if he was involved.

Also...
Regarding the Tom "Wolfman" Webb story/interview. Do you think he still has a draft after all these years? I guess that since he is still involved in the industry at Dirt Rider magazine that he would probably prefer not to participate in resurecting the story anyway.

Thanks again for all of your input.

Curtis.

[Curtis-Tecate3]

Mike,

A few more questions when you have the time.

Can you elaborate a bit more on your statement below regarding Curtis Sparks.

"My resistance and "outspokeness" towards this arrangement is what led to much of the focus toward Marty. I never felt that what they were doing was right, and was by no means a TEAM EFFORT. Curtis Sparks also felt as I did. Honda screwed Curtis every chance they got too."

I idolized Team Honda back then when I was in my mid-teens. Curtis Sparks happened to be my favorite rider at that time since I had a 200X and his first name obviously helped too.! I am curious since it sounds like his treatment may have been similar to yours.

Last question for now.
What other riders/competitors/industry people were you closest with back then and do you still maintain friendships with them today?

Thanks,

Curtis.

[the Outlaw]

Mike,

It's good to here from fellow rider from the "old" days. The fact that your a fomer Team Honda rider is that much better.

Myself I've been on three wheels since the 70's. In the mid 80's (85/86) I had just started racing 3wheelers and turned pro in 86 unfortunatly like you said by then the writing was on the wall. Being from back east I never had a chance to go up against you or the other top riders and that always left a sour taste in my mouth.

I read in one of your post you were working on restoring a "racing" 250R. After racing MX bikes from 89-99 I too am restoring my "old" 250R. It's not to far differant then what you rode for Team Honda. Not only do I have the short track tank kit, but I also have Mugen adjustable forks and rear shock. My cylinder was ported to some of the same specs you guys ran and I run a modified airbox like your old R's.

I was wondering if you had thought about attending Trikefest anytime?
I would love a chance to "ride" against you on one of there MX tracks.

As for your dealings with the AMA I too can relate. During my motocross days I had my share of run ins with the AMA about series points.

You also mentioned some kind words about Yamaha and some not so kind words about Honda and the AMA. While admittedly I never rode for either Team, Both have played "the game" with the AMA.

In 1977 Keith McCarty pulled a dirty trick at the AMA 125 MX nationals and had his rider Bob Hannah pull over so another rider could win the championship. that was/is against the AMA's rules involving "team tatics". then in 1990 Keith complained to the AMA about Suzuki bringing its 250 class riders into the 125 class to help Guy Cooper.

In 1985/86 Yamaha complained to the AMA about honda's works bikes and got the "Production" rule instated. Then in 1985/86 yamaha then went to the AMA and wanted a "works" bike exemption rule so they could race thier 400 four stroke against 250 two strokes.

Yamaha also went to the AMA with what I think was the worst decission ever made and got the 500 class dropped.

In 2004 The whole Yamaha team got cought useing illegal Gas at Supercross.

Not that Honda is any better.

As far as Marty Hart. Am I mistaken or was he not a threat when he rode the 3B lighting Yamahas? And is that not how he got his Team Honda ride?

Thanks.

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

Hello 3 wheeler fans!

I am enjoying this very much! I will try to answe some more questions.

Catfish,

I have tried to get ahold of Tom Webb. Not about the old interview, but to see how he was doing and to possibly go riding together. If he DID still have it the interview, I would be fine if it was printed now.

There wasn't anything in "print" about interviews per say in my contract, but I was verbally repremanded for the things I had said and brought to light, and was warned that if the interview was printed, I WOULD be terminated!!

Curtis-Tecate,

The "works" cylinders were from Japan. The transfer port area was re-designed.
As you guessed, Paul Turner got in there and really modified them even more. The modification was to lengthen the transfer port tract/timing.

Where the stock transfer ports look almost verticle from the outside, these were clearly "puffed" outward. I think he was just copying the Kawasaki design of the time. The Kawasaki transfer ports looked this way. Check one out and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Curtis WAS treated the same as were all the riders that wanted to ride for Honda in 1985. "No outside sponsors" Curtis was my teammate for all of the off-road races in 1985 except for the Baja 1000. We dominated the open class and won many overalls.

Curtis NEVER got any thing from Paul Turner when he was to ride in the 2 stroke classes. Honda always made him come up with his own stuff.


I rode and won the 250 class in the Baja 1000 in 1985 riding with Steve Wright and Tracy Dickson. We were the "B" team that year. Marty, Wax, and I think Curtis were the "A" team in that race. Paul Turner, Steve Carter and the riders all spent many hours building the FASTEST thing they could muster up.


Tom Gildea had a better idea. We had our desert racer all modified and it was quick, but not fast, know what I mean? It would outrun our prerunners (stock) but after it was wide open, the prerunners would catch up and pass it!
We started adding stock parts back to the race trike. When all was said and done, it was basically all stock except for a CR250 silencer! We SMOKED the "A" team and finishjed first overall!

Guess I got off track there a bit. sorry.

I have been in contact with Donny Luce as of late, Tommy Gaian, Jimmy White (to a lesser extent) Daryll Bassani, Mark Dooley(DG) Chuck Miller, and Curtis Sparks. I have occaisionally bumped into Dean Sundahl, Mark Waxeldorfer, Marty Hart (once) Steve Wright, and even some of the Motocrossers from El Cajon that were fast in that era like Rick Johnson, Broc Glover, and Ronny Lechein. I have even seen and spoken to Dean Kirsten of 3wheeling Magazine a few times at car events (swapmeets and shows)

I was closest to Curtis Sparks. Even though we didn't do that much together other than at the races, He was an excellent competitor and very fast on a 250 too. Curtis could ride as well as anybody out there, and he beat me and everybody at the races on 250's on a few occaisions. HE CHOSE to ride the 200x. He was all about the 4 stroke. We liked many of the same things and liked each others company.

As for the "competition" I probably had the greatest respect for Jimmy White. He was a wiley competitor and most times unbeatable off the gate. He had/has excellent skills and obviously won races. Donny Luce, Steve Mendenhall, , Rodney Gentry, Eddie Sanders, there was alot of talent out there.

I never felt that flat track racing required as much skill as in the other forms of ATC/V racing. I always wanted to utilize ALL of the suspension travel!
The trikes kept getting longer and longer wheel travel, but it seemed as though the tracks kept getting flatter and flatter.........

At many of the flat track races the start is key because most of the ones on the circuit were one liners. All of the turns seemed to be hairpins, and even though you might be MUCH faster than the competitor in front of you, you can't pass as long as he sticks to the inside. VERY FRUSTRATING.

Outlaw,

You have far more experience with Team Yamaha and Keith McCarty than I !!
As far as the ATV racing went, it was first class all the way. and by comparison to the politics at Honda, Team Yamaha was clearly a TEAM effort. That may explain the Bob Hannah results.

Marty did have some spirited rides on his 3B Yamahas, but was really not a "threat" as Yamaha was not entering the 3 wheeler racing scene in any official capacity. I also raced for 3B before Marty!! I was going to race Bob "Ace" Williams's 250 Yamaha at Riverside in 1981. He had just hooked up with Honda and was building a 450 powered trike to race there. The 250 Yamaha he built was awesome and I know I could have easily won on the Yamaha, it was VERY FAST. Bob unfortunately had his accident, and many things changed in an instant.

I also raced the Husqvarna 3 wheeler during this same time and things looked promising for a while. The Baja race that I rode the Husky in was AFTER I raced for Honda just a week or so prior at the Houston Astrodome. We led most of the race but DNF'd. The following Monday, Honda invited me up to join the ATC Team as a permanent member.

Looking back, and like in Marty's case, I think that Honda was initially trying to thwart any viable competition from another manufacturer.

At one Baja Cross event when Marty was riding the same 250 3B Yamaha that I had raced earlier, he won the first moto on Saturday mostly because the YZ powered trike was so much faster than our 1982 250R's.

The next day he was leading as well but crashed VERY HARD!! It was at this time that Honda decided to start lending him support to try and get Yamaha out of the picture. ATV News(Lance Bryson) always hyped anyone or anything other than Honda to stir up controversy AND to try and get the other manufacturers involved in the sport!! It was working!!

Honda was trying more to remove other brands from 3 wheel racing as much as possible! ANY publicity of any other brand was unacceptable! It was easier to "hire" Marty off of the Yamaha, and Eddie Sanders off of his Suzuki, than to have to share the lime light with the other manufacturers. The Kawasaki team was the "enemy" to Honda ATC manager Wes McCoy. He hated these guys. I could never get into the mindset and always felt that competition would improve the sport.

The Honda ATC team had MANY members at various times under different "letter" support. There was the "A" "B" and "C" teams, and lesser support for many other racers back then.

[NOS_350X]

Does the names Doug or Gary Meniffee ring a bell? I'm friends with there kids and they used to race pro back in the day with Eddie Sanders. One of them still has there race bike from back then. But from my understanding they wernt into mx more flattrack and TT.

[3WW Star-CoeShow]

NOS 350X,

Eddie Sanders lived in Visalia, near one of the finest dirt tracks in California, Porterville.

I don't recall racing racing any Meniffee's, but that doesn't mean that we never raced at some event some where together.

Mike

[mad_max]

The Honda ATC team had MANY members at various times under different "letter" support. There was the "A" "B" and "C" teams, and lesser support for many other racers back then.

Mike,

Can you give us an example of how "A" "B" and "C" teams differed?
I'd heard that some Honda riders were paid while others were lucky to get a few parts.

Also, I'm curious how you got along with Dean Sundahl, seems like he got alot of press especially for desert racing.

Thanks
Max

[Old 179]

Mike,

If it was possible to have 10 identical tuned trikes for mx and flat tracking. Who would you pick as the most talented riders and how they would place?

Possible riders: (no order) Ace Williams, Jimmy White,Mike Coe, Curtis Sparks,Marty Hart,Dean Sundahl,
Others: Rod Gentry, Mickey Dunlop, Steve Mendenhall, Greg Baker, John Neary,Donnie Luce, Mike Chester Mark Weixeldorfer, Eddie Sanders, Dan Lamey, Chris White, Tracy Dickson,