cant figure this P.O.S. out! (ITS ALIVE!)

[oldtoys72]

Ok, so as some of you know, I got a 200X about a month ago now.I haven't had a lot of time to mess with it but recentlly I have. When I got it the guy said it needed a timing chain, well on saturday I was finally able to change the chain. I put it all back together and found no compression waiting for me! Tore the motor down, replaced a couple of seals slapped it back together and there is good compresion now! So I timed it according to the manual using the "T" mark then setting the cam so the holes are at 12 and 6, then rotated flywheel so that it was on the "F" mark like the book says. According to everything it should be "in-time" now but the damn thing will not start or even give me a fire! Its got spark, everything should be right, I cannot figure this thing out! What I'm questioning is that its 180 off. I read that the lobes on the came should point down toward the block, but I also read that the tit on the cam shaft that holds the CDI deal is suppose to be at 4 o'clock instead of ten, that's not possible or the lobes would be skyward. Anyways, it took everything I had at 2:30 this morning when I finally had it all back together bolted into the frame, carb cleaned, everything bolted up and the damn thing wouldn't start again, not to grab the sledge and start hitting! Can you guys plase help me out here, if I don't figure this out soon its goin to Þhe scrap yard and I will start over with something else! I love trikes but this one is cursed I think!

[84atc200]

I'm sorry to say i don't have a remedy but i've been there countless times. I quit working for a while and go back to it later and somehow for me it works out. I couldn't get my 200s to start once and i replaced the head and it started i'm not sure why but it worked. They can definately be a huge pain!

[200XMichigan]

Do you smoke? Maybe should should consider starting? Just kidding. But yeah everyone's been there. Step back, take what ever kind of break will make ya feel better. And wait till you don't hate it to work on it again. The 200X is a great trike and you'll love it when you are done. Don't give up on it, just take a break. Is the spark good and fat? What is the compression at? Have you tried starter fluid? If the spark is good and the timing isn't off then it should at least give a sputter with starting fluid.

Sometimes it sucks not getting that gratifying first kick feel on something that hasn't run in years, and sometimes it sucks when you have to go back over it, but in the end it will be a great trike.

[oldtoys72]

Good spark, tried pullin plug dumpin a little gas in and still nothing! I just don't know what else to do! I've never had one this stubborn before and I'm not the most patient guy in town either so that doesn't help but so far I've put in about 22hrs I would say trying to figure it out and I'm at the end of the rope with this thing!

[200XMichigan]

Have you tested the compression with a tester? The finger test isn't always that accurate. Did you print out the manual? Look over all the pictures and the steps something isn't right. But take a break. And at least you didn't pay that jerk to fix it. So take a breather, look over the manual later.

[oldtoys72]

I've got a haynes manual, its not for the 200X exactlly, its for 110/185/200 but the 200 is pretty much the same motor. I looked at the manual on here and it doesn't give much info. Any idea where to get a better one, free of course. I agree there has got to be something I'm missing but I can't figure it out for the life of me!

[TrailerRider]

I would check out the manual here: http://72.52.143.80/~trikes/Manuals/ATC%20manuals/83-85ATC%20200xservicemanual.pdf (for 83/85 200x) and here for http://72.52.143.80/~trikes/Manuals/ATC%20manuals/86-87atc200xservicemanual.pdf (for 86/87 200x)

How did you check for compression? Maybe your valves are not seeling? You can pour a little oil in the cylinder and kick it over. If it has no different compression feeling than likely the valves seals have issues if it kicks harder you may need rings.

[oldtoys72]

Gave it ye 'ole thumb test, I know its not real accurate but it tells you if you at least have compression. When I had it all apart I check the piston and rings, all in good shape and look pretty new, wiseco piston (bonus) kicking myself though cause I should have checked to see if it had been bored out at some point!

[oldtoys72]

Somebodys gotta have some good advice on what's wrong with this thing!

[Thorpe]

You try a fresh plug? On my BR, the plug will still spark, but wont run... Throw a fresh NGK in, pops right off...

[JayBone]

If it doesn't kick over with carb cleaner it's spark. Just my guess.. EVERYTHING at least turns over for a second with carb cleaner.

Maybe your missing one of those little springs in the pulse generator Technical name (Advancer spark). Maybe you get spark, but it's not hot enough. I'm baffeled cause you have the 3 most important components happening.

[oldtoys72]

Pulse generator is all there, made sure everything was complete when I put it together. Really, it will still spark if the plug is bad? My plug sparks but its not a huge fat spark? Plug is pretty new I think but I will grab one after work and drop it in and see what the deal is. I've got a spare cdi laying around and a spare coil as well, think I should swap them out? I know they are good cause they are on a motor that a buddy roached the piston and cylinder in! Speaking of which anybody got a piston and cylinder for an 84 200X?

[oldtoys72]

Another thing to add, every so often the carb will just puke gas out, what's up with that? I took it all apart last night and cleaned it, can't remember if it happend again after I cleaned it or not though.

[atctim]

have you tried adjusting your valves?

[oldtoys72]

That would be done with the little set screw in each one right? If so, mine have to movement one way or another

[portland250r]

I've got a haynes manual, its not for the 200X exactlly, its for 110/185/200 but the 200 is pretty much the same motor. I looked at the manual on here and it doesn't give much info. Any idea where to get a better one, free of course. I agree there has got to be something I'm missing but I can't figure it out for the life of me!

they arent the same motor in any way shape or form!

[portland250r]

Good spark, tried pullin plug dumpin a little gas in and still nothing! I just don't know what else to do! I've never had one this stubborn before and I'm not the most patient guy in town either so that doesn't help but so far I've put in about 22hrs I would say trying to figure it out and I'm at the end of the rope with this thing!

check out this website it will really help. http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm

[factoryX]

huh? on 3wo somebody put together a 200x motor with a 200s pull start, 200e electric start, and a 200x kick start. These motors share quite a bit. You can switch cams, heads from almost all of these 200 motors except the 86-87 200x.

[tundrawolf]

Have you tested the compression with a tester? The finger test isn't always that accurate. Did you print out the manual? Look over all the pictures and the steps something isn't right. But take a break. And at least you didn't pay that jerk to fix it. So take a breather, look over the manual later.

I was working on a generator a few days ago that is in "bad shape". The finger test revealed low compression. The compression test revealed zero compression (But the gauge could be wrong). However, when I put gas in it, it fired on the first pull and runs great, with no smoke! Go figure.

[200XMichigan]

Sounds like a broken gauge. I know myself, for me its too subjective, if I'm tired 70 psi feels "strong", it pops my finger off, when really its not enough to run right. I was messing with a Trail 90 that felt like it should run from the finger pop test. But just didn't have enough to sputter and idle. Finally got the compression gauge and it was at 60 psi.

The manual list in this thread is the real Honda manual, download it, print the whole thing, and check it all over. Once you make sense of it, its the best tool you can have.

[TrailerRider]

huh? on 3wo somebody put together a 200x motor with a 200s pull start, 200e electric start, and a 200x kick start. These motors share quite a bit. You can switch cams, heads from almost all of these 200 motors except the 86-87 200x.

Link to this mod?

[CRAZY70MAN]

Just because it sparks period does not mean it is the right amount of spark. Had a china 150cc motor that about gave me a freakin' breakdown for that reason.............. You need big blue spark baby...........big blue!!! Try the dr7 ngk plug as my 200x loved to eat the dr8es plugs a someone mentioned.......... compression test is needed at this point though in my opinion.....valves possibly as Tim said above ???? Good luck

[Dirtcrasher]

The "T" and "F" are nearly impossible to find. PLENTY of machines I take the left cover off, use my dremel and put a slice where they both are. Unless you have a timing light and RPM gauge, I don't think the "F" does much for you.

As I've said before just be aware that this is a 4 stroke. It has TWO - TDC's or Top Dead Centers. Personally, I use a straw in the spark plug hole to find TDC. And if I'm tearing it down, I put it at TDC before I begin tearing into it.........

TDC 1 is the firing/compression stroke. TDC 2 is the exhaust or "I'm all done and ready to begin again" stroke. NO TDC will bend a valve, but a few teeth off may very well do that without youi knowing. The person who suggested a TBSP of oil is correct, if compression goes up then your rings are bad or the piston and cylinder too haven't been done in some time.

It's very simple to time ANY 4 STROKE! Put the piston at TDC and make sure the rocker arms have no pressure on them, the lobes should be DOWN or UP, depending on the design but it means that they are in the relaxed position which mean compression position and firing position. I don't need notches, "O's" or marks; I just need a straw in the plug hole.....

With the 83-85 200X the problem many of you have is that you have it a TDC but it's not on the firing stroke and the pulse generator will show this. Simply removing the cam sprocket bolts and turning the crank one revolution and setting it again at TDC and set to FIRE solves this very easy. Maybe thats why the 86/87 200X pulse generator runs off the flywheel and the sprocket is welded to the cam. So your lobes should be DOWN or away from the rocker arms. Tghis is also when and where you set the initial rocker arm clearance - about .003 thousandths for most Honda early engines.

Now the pricks have a uni cam with one rocker arm running the decompression or something which is ALLOT harder to do. It has permanent shims, nothing to adjust. You measure it, do the math and HOPEFULLY your done............ It's one PITA unless you do it once a month or something and it remains fresh in your head.....

Hopefully you have a compression tester (I just skimmed this topic) so you can check the PSI and figure out if it's valves or rings or just out of time. Regardless, I always lap the valves, I can't recut the seat but any early Honda gets by with a lapping unless the valve is bent.

Good luck!
DC

[200XMichigan]

Just because it sparks period does not mean it is the right amount of spark. Had a china 150cc motor that about gave me a freakin' breakdown for that reason.............. You need big blue spark baby...........big blue!!! Try the dr7 ngk plug as my 200x loved to eat the dr8es plugs a someone mentioned.......... compression test is needed at this point though in my opinion.....valves possibly as Tim said above ???? Good luck

Mind if I hyjack for a second, was it the CDI on the Chinese engine. I have one of those GY6 that I can't get to fire for the life of me. Spark seems small. New rings and piston, the compression seems low but I wasn't able to lap the valves since they sent me the wrong valve spring compressor (and the rings can't seat since it won't start). Will be doing that soon if I can't get it going. What was it with yours?

[CRAZY70MAN]

Mind if I hyjack for a second, was it the CDI on the Chinese engine. I have one of those GY6 that I can't get to fire for the life of me. Spark seems small. New rings and piston, the compression seems low but I wasn't able to lap the valves since they sent me the wrong valve spring compressor (and the rings can't seat since it won't start). Will be doing that soon if I can't get it going. What was it with yours? It was the inner rotor kit........it was junk from the get go....... Fired spark but not the right kind.......towed it, pushed and kicked it and notta!!! New inner rotor kit and walahhhhh!! Bad QC in China I suspect??

[oldtoys72]

The way I set the cam in was with the lobes facing down toward the cylinder, is that not correct? The tit on the cam shaft that holds the pulser is in the 10 o'clock position. Do I need to flip the cam over so that the lobes are facing up with the "pointy" ends in the i guess it would be 10 and 2 positions? i put a new plug in when I got home and spark was still the same, blue and jumping the gap. Let me know what to do....

[200XMichigan]

If the timing is 180 of it will be at TDC with the lobes down but it won't make spark until 180 degrees later. If you had someone with you they could kick it over while you look at the spark (might be able to rig a piece of metal to ground the spark so you don't need an assistant. Then hold your finger over the hole. The spark should occur at the same time you feel compression. If it sparks but not when you feel the compression its probably an even 180 off.

[oldtoys72]

when i did the timing it was at TDC and i installed the cam with the lobes down, so from what your saying I gather its 180 off?

[Texas 200x]

did you align the timing mark on the cam sprocket?

[oldtoys72]

the little dot is @ 12 o'clock

[creativeone84]

dude omg i have the exact word for word same problem please help uss i wanna ride!!!

[oldtoys72]

its terrible right? I feel like a five year old at christmas.... all the gifts are there but they cant be opened until after dinner!

[factoryX]

Link to this mod?

http://www.3wheeler.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38991

[atctim]

VALVES

That would be done with the little set screw in each one right? If so, mine have to movement one way or another

you need to have them in spec or you might have everything else right but it will not run!!!!!! Did you have you cylinder speced out before putting in the new piston and rings? Did you have it honed out???

[oldtoys72]

I just got the bike recentlly, the piston and rings were in it when I got it, cylinder walls look great, piston and rings look great! The set screws that adjust the lifters that tap the valves have no movement to them whatsoever,

[oldtoys72]

I have a different head from another motor, should I try that?

[200XMichigan]

Adjust the valves at TDC. If the valves have no movement at TDC they are too tight. Its all in the Honda manual. You back off the lock nut on the lifter, and back out the adjuster and you will have clearance. Really print the manual it has everything, its 1000 times better than a Haynes manual. If there is no clearance the valves don't close completely. But it has to be done at TDC.

[oldtoys72]

So this morning I decided that I had enough of messin with this thing! I dropped it off at a mechanics shop and told them what was going on, I talked to the owner brieflý a few minutes ago and apparentlly I have a phantom problem here! He said it is timed right, its getting gas and it has good spark! That's all the further he has gotten so far, he said it makes ZERO sense that it won't even fire! I will keep you guys updated on what the deal is! Any ideas you guys have?

[200XMichigan]

If you have compression, spark and fuel, it will fire. Unless you were on the moon and lacked oxygen. Um, did you try starting it with the air filter removed? Maybe it's too plugged to let air in. Did he tell you what the compression was at? Did you try a new spark plug?

Give him a copy of the manual from this site. It might help.

[oldtoys72]

He didn't say anything about the compression, he had cstomers waiting so he just gave me a brief update. What's it suppose to be at? I put a new plug in it last night with no new results! I will get him that manual tonight if he hasn't figured it out by then. I never tried pulling the filter off, I wouldn't think it could be that plugged, it didn't look to bad.

[84atc200]

I had a kx 250 that wouldn't start, i found out it was because the silencer was plugged up

[oldtoys72]

Was doing a locate for work next door to the mechanic so I stopped in, compression is good they said, but the timing is half off apparentlly... What does that mean? How would that have happend? They said its sparking on exhaust!

[creativeone84]

hold trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro i thought this was my problem too its called 180 off i did the same thing imm about to go try to get it we set the timing up on the exhaust stroke instead of on the compression stroke common mistake

[oldtoys72]

They close at five over there so I'm really hopeing they get it done before the end of the day! I want to ride that thing so damn bad! I've owned it for a month now and the only thing I've done is push it around the garage! Let me know if yours fires up after you adjust it! Good luck!

[Dirtcrasher]

IDK Did you read my post? or if you misunderstood me. PLEASE read it and you'll know if the cam is at the right TDC or 180 out.

I know it's hard to use the "search feature" but when I explain it in your thread and you ask the lobe position question again, I'm just shaking my head wondering????????????????

The lobes go DOWN and AWAY from the rocker arms, set the rough rocker arm gap right at that setting and time too.

I explained 180 out, everything? I'm your own free personal service manual and you still won't read me!!?? :lol:

[oldtoys72]

Hopefully since you haven't posted yet creativeone84 you got that thing goin and are out rippin it up!

[250x]

if he doesn't get it fired, he going to bring it out tomorrow, or im going to pick him, and it up and we can get it set properly and diagnosed, THEN he can take it out riding with us tomorrow afternoon.

[oldtoys72]

I just wanted to say how nice it is to have all this knowledge at ones finger tips. The community her on 3WW world is top notch! Everyone is more than happy to lend a helping hand to each other for nothing to gain!

Dirtchrasher; dude, I must have skimmed your original post or something cause I don't remember it... My bad, sure would have been nice to have that info! My apologies...

[creativeone84]

i adjusted it but i got a call right when i was doing it and then i started working on it again and i turned it over while i had the bolts off and lost track of what i was doing i thought i had it right but nope still nothing... im taking it to a guys house tonight and ill let you know if i can get it going please let me know if you got yours going i wannna ride!!! lol hopefully by tommorow i can at least ride it

[haggard 2hundie]

dude , get the manual its free !! i am a first time mechanic and i have a service manual and it has everything you need to know ya its nice just having our questions answered on here but serioulsy , i havent been a member here for long and i see the same questions answered all the time im not tryin to b a jerk but the manual is always there sometimes you can wait awhile for the right responce on here . and sometimes questions dont get answered cuz theyve been answered already , the search function works great as well good luck,

[oldtoys72]

new problem;........... the mechanic snapped the cam! Are you fricken kiddin me? so now I have to start all over again! I cannot even explain how fed up with this wheeler I am!

[creativeone84]

omg is he paying for it?

[mike1979]

:lol:You got some bad luck (like me). I'm gonna quit reading this thread, maybe it's my bad luck seeping through the interwebs....

[oldtoys72]

Im not sure what is going on with whos paying who for what as it sits now, I took the wheeler back from him but he still has my pulse generator and CDI, I have two more cams here so I can use one of those. I also have another CDI and pulse generator so we will see what happens i guess. Its just the whole point of the matter. i mean seriously, how the hell do you snap the cam in two? Now I gotta pull the whole damn motor back out of the bike and start from square one with this problem!

[oldtoys72]

Ya, like my mother always told me growing up.... If i didnt have bad luck i wouldnt have any luck at all!

[jcorkin]

on one of the 70's i picked up at one time the guy had just rebuilt the motor but when i went to start it it would just throw a fireball out of the exhaust and this was due to the timing being out 180, so i am surprised that if you are out of timing 180 degrees that you arent getting the same fireball, and also when doing valve lashing adjustments be sure to use a feeler gauge and keep them in clearence this can cause some serious problems

[Dirtcrasher]

I REALLY wish you guys would move closer to Massachusetts.

I get work, you get a fixed trike = WIN WIN!! :D

[oldtoys72]

DC; if i lived within 200 miles of you i would be there in a second! Im gonna get after this damn thing in a few hours so hopefully i will get it up and running by this afternoon or evening using your methods (the straw) super easy way to tell TDC!

[Vealmonkey]

Why do you have to take the engine out? You should be able to get both pieces of the cam out without removing the engine or the head. All you need is what's called a "magnet". LOL It sounds like you are your own worst enemy here. And I can't even begin to figure out how a "mechanic" busted a cam in 2 while working on your trike. Something ain't kosher here at all. And if you are working on this trike without a shop manual, well, that's just plain stupid. So if you are working without a manual, then you aren't putting things back together without the proper torque specs or anything like that then. Even if you get the trike running, then I don't expect it to be running for long. The longer this thread goes on, the worse it just keeps getting. Best of luck.

[oldtoys72]

I have been glancing at the manual during this, unfortunatlly its a haynes manual. As for torque and all that other trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro, some of us dont have all the money in the world to buy new tools and have mint wheelers, some of us are just dirt broke enthusiats that get by with what they have! Clearly from your sig youve got the abillitiy to get what you need, I on the other hand being 26 having a eight year old, a 8month old and just finding out the other day that there is another one on the way dont have the money to piss away on things that arent absolutly critical! as for getting the cam out, ya your right I should be able to get it out without taking it out, I wasnt thinking. He snapped the cam because he said it looked like in was bent where the pulse generator slides onto it so he tried to straighten it, that when its snapped clean off! I dont know what the hell he was trying to acomplish, but its not all that big of a deal. If i dont get the thing going I will just part everything out!

[creativeone84]

man that sucks as far as my same problem ive still come up with nothing honestly ill give it a few more days before i have the worlds first honda 200x boat anchor... (btw i dont own a boat)!!!!

[oldtoys72]

I thought you were taking it somewhere last night to get it fixed, what happend with that? Im gonna slap the other cam i have into the motor sometime today and redo everything and see if it runs, if it dont then obviously i did something wrong AGAIN and in that case its over for this 200X. I will be following D.C.'s instructions to a T this time cause it sure seems like he knows his trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro! I will let you know what happens, best of luck with your trike!

[Trble]

oldtoys72 before you give up i just went through the whole same exact thing on my trike that i did a top end job on it took me about a year of goin by book and such to find out one little thing was messing me up with the timing.

[oldtoys72]

what was the problem with yours Trble?

[creativeone84]

yea bro idk he never texted me back he said he would come pick me up so idk man i think im just gonna get rid of this thing ive been working on it since i got it never once did i even get to ride it so im at the end of the road....

[250x]

we ended up having a very busy day yesterday. I am going to try to get Phil out there today bud, nothing worse than having a space wasting garage decoration.

[oldtoys72]

well le tme know what you guys come up with! I will do the same. As for my trike, I havent rode it once since i got it either! been doing nothing but trying to get the stupid thing run! It was 180 out but I was on the phone with Trble last night and he walked me through a great and super easy way to get the piston to TDC and set the timing, unfortunatlly, It still wont fire, I dont get it! Even with putting fuel straight into the cylinder, nothing! Just doesnt make sense! Has all components to run but there is some phantom issue here!

[oldtoys72]

Well, the old lady is about ready to leave me cause i spend to much time workin on 200X, but guess what, it runs! Finally got it fired up tonight at about 12:30, dont think the neighbors were real happy about it though way! I was timing it the proper way but wasnt on the right stroke, what a dumb @$$! I had an ah ha moment and figured it out! Couple of new problems though.... that of chatter in the motor, Hopeing its valve tapping, anybody know what the clearance should be and what i need to check it? also, it doesnt want to idle on its own, havent tried adjustment screw yet, was just so damn happy to hear it run! its way louder than any 200X i have had! i will take a pic of the pipe and maybe one of you can identify it for me. Last issue, when the bike is sitting non-running every so often the carb will puke out some fuel, anyone know why its doing that? I want to thank everybody for their helpfull comments, im so happy it runs! should be riding this weekend with any luck!

[peter250r]

sounds like you just need a rebuild kit for the carby now. glad ya had a win.

[jonathandexter]

I did a complete build some years ago on a running 200x for more power. We did adjust the valves to accomodate the new cam. Larger Mikuni carb.
I am sure that the one guy is right. Ngk plug makes a difference if you got one that is too hot or too cold in a different brand then yeah it wont bark. But this fuel puking thing tells me you might be over sized and or over jet. your build could be cherry but if its flooded its not going to fire etc.
Take a step back, don't snap bro!!! Patience is hard learned, loaned some times.
Is there anyone that have have close that can just look over your work? I have had frustrations before and a fresh mind / pair of eyes can make things come together.
Good luck hope that helps just a little.
Jonathan

[Trble]

Btw oldtoys72 the manual in pdf format that Trailrider posted back on the first page of this thread is actually the Honda Shop Manual, it is a very good manual I have mine printed all out and in a binder it really does help out bro. And glad to hear that it barked btw that was one of things I was saying about these 200X they are very picky engines everything needs to be in tune and a good plug or she will be very stubborn!

[Trble]

Oh also oldtoys I am going pick up that other 200X minus the tires for $100 this week so I can start the process all over again, but I bet this time it wont be so difficult! LOL

[squirrel1182]

to check valve claearance just take the valve covers off and adjust it while idleing. As for the carb just rebuild it itll be alot easier than monkey trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro with it.

[oldtoys72]

I will probablly pull the carb off tonight and clean it out again and check jet sizes and let yall know!

Trble: dude, I can't believe you scored that bike for a hundo! From what you were sayin the other day its in pretty good shape and who could pass up a 200X especiallÝ for 100 bills! Congrats, now get some pics up so I can see the beast!

[tundrawolf]

to check valve claearance just take the valve covers off and adjust it while idleing.



What? It's not a small block chevy!

[Trble]

Lol but it is a small block =)

[inv3ctiv3]

to check valve claearance just take the valve covers off and adjust it while idleing. As for the carb just rebuild it itll be alot easier than monkey trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro with it.

Sorry but this is not how you adjust the valve clearances, you can not do this while the trike is running....You can adjust the timing chain tension while it is running but NOT the valve clearances....

[mike1979]

What? It's not a small block chevy!

Yeah, no idling while adjusting valves.!!! Try the cam chain tensioner first though, thats easy!

[oldtoys72]

Havent taken the carb off to check it out yet, focusing on the super "chattery" upper engine noise! didnt have proper tools to check clearances but Im sure its pretty close after adjusting them! Still extreme amount of chatter in the upper engine! Any thoughts? I have a different head with all the "guts" that I think I may try. The bike doesnt really want to idle on its own, i adjusted the screw on the side of the carb, turned it all the way in then turned it out two turns... bike idled high so i adjusted it a little more but cant seem to hit that sweet spot, infact just fired it up and it idles extremly high! are there other quick adjustments? noticed a substantial oil leak on the clutch cover (bummer) but not a hard fix by any means! Last thing, the clutch doesnt seem to fully let go of the gear so to speak, if the bike is not running and its in gear and you pull the clutch in it seems like its still half engaging! thoughts?

[oldtoys72]

for cam chain tensioner, get it at idle and then loosen the big nut correct and it will set itself if i remember right?

[Trble]

Yes if i remember right you loosen the nut and it adjusts itself and then retighten just cant seem to remember at this moment my mind is on the other bike right now lol

[Trble]

And on the noises might want to check the valve nuts and such make sure you had them tight enough that they didnt work loose and rattle off and fall in on the head not hard to get out but still just a thought.

[oldtoys72]

ok maybe im confusing myself here but everyone keeps saying valve adjustment, Im adjusting the "pins" on the lifters that push down against the spring, Am I adjusting the worng thing here?

[Trble]

No that is the valve lash adjustment the screws with the nuts on them they have to be set at 0.003 if i remember right, but the chain you do at an idle. Just make sure when you tighten them that they are really tight so as to not work loose from vibration of the rocker arms and such.

[Trble]

Need to add a 1985 ATC 125M to my sig as a rebuild in progress too.

[Trble]

If any specific questions send me a txt you have my number will be up for one more hour 4am comes real early

[oldtoys72]

so then how do I adjust the valves? The cam chain should be nice and tight, afterall I put a brand new one on and it was tight when I checked it! so its gotta be something else! Also, i got a couple other cylinder heads one with all the valves and springs and etc.. one with partial and one bare, is there a way to tell if the others are good? Im wondering If i should tear down and replace with other parts maybe?

[oldtoys72]

when you getting that 2 hundie? im excited for you! cant wait to see it? how 'bout some pics of your other trikes?

[mike1979]

I just went through the learning process myself...
1. If really chattering----you may have been on the wrong stroke. must be at TDC of compression stroke. Rockers should be slightly loose. If you are in doubt, roll the motor over with your hand on the lifter, you should notice when ALL VALVES ARE CLOSED.
Valves that are out of adjustment CAN cause a high idle or a slow return to idle
After you get that correct you can adjust the cam chain which is a 30 second job. Loosen the nut on top of the case (under a black rubber boot) do not move the flat head screw part ONLY THE NUT. After you loosen the nut it will adjust on it's own. re-tighten.

Please post up correction if anyone disagrees.

[mike1979]

Also, the tool you need for the valve is a feeler gauge, cheap at autozone ect... You should get the flat one not the "wire" ones

[oldtoys72]

Side note here guys..... is it possible for the trike to run at 180 out? I ask this because right before I timed it "different" last night I noticed that one wire on the toggle switch the previous owner had installed had the worst connection i had ever seen, was literally hanging on by one little thread of a wire! My spark is much fatter now! so my question is... is it possible that all along I was timing it the right way but my spark was not good enough to fire the trike? If so is that what is causing all my engine chatter now, that fact that it is possiblly 180 off? I was just sitting here thinking and thought maybe this would be a poinient bit of info

[Dirtcrasher]

Side note here guys..... is it possible for the trike to run at 180 out? I ask this because right before I timed it "different" last night I noticed that one wire on the toggle switch the previous owner had installed had the worst connection i had ever seen, was literally hanging on by one little thread of a wire! My spark is much fatter now! so my question is... is it possible that all along I was timing it the right way but my spark was not good enough to fire the trike? If so is that what is causing all my engine chatter now, that fact that it is possiblly 180 off? I was just sitting here thinking and thought maybe this would be a poinient bit of info

HOW ON EARTH could an engine FIRE at the exhaust stroke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How does uncompressed fuel fire?? Go Google "How does a 4 stroke engine work" please.

Have I not clearly twice now pointed out the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of a 4 strokes operation?? :rolleyes:

I didn't mention jetting, ignition problems etc, I tried to keep it simple......

I am glad your a fellow enthusiast and I'm sure I sound like a dick but I feel like I'm talking to a rock.

It is impossible for a 4 stroke to be 180 out and run. It won't do anything besides load up with fuel.

180 out is 180 out. They both create the exact same spark but at different times.......

[jcorkin]

if it would have fired you probably would have thrown a fireball out of the carb, and i think that was a bit too far there dirtcrasher, simple question to just give an answer to, at one point and time all of us didnt know much about engines and look for help and not too many get the hang of them the first couple of times they are told here you go oldtoys72 check out this link, should give you a better idea of what is going on inside the motor
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm

[oldtoys72]

Ya that did come off a little on the "dickish" side of things but no worries! I generallý don't think things through before speakin, or in this case typing! Had I though it through before typing there would not have been a post! My ego is not that large that I refuse your help DC, just have so many things going on on the home front that I'm doing about 30 things at once all the time and can't remember what I'm doing that second let alone a posting I read three days ago sometimes. I do appreciate everyones help though. Just gotta try to find the source of the chatter!

[jcorkin]

well the 200x's are known for having top end noise, i believe from the cam chain, not 100% sure on that but i do know that they are naturally a bit noisy on the top end

[tundrawolf]

When I rebuilt a G180 I was off 180 on the dizzy and it ran. A friend has done it on another engine and it has run, too. My engine ran hot and noisy but it ran. Look it up, some engines can run 180 out.

[Dirtcrasher]

I like all you guys, whether I've met you or not....... Because we all like trikes!

But someone obviously hasn't or cannot read a book or look it up on the internet or find the answer in 7 pages of a thread when I posted numerous times about "180" out (and felt I made it clear), a question like this frustrates me.

That is all.......

Tundrawolf - How does uncompressed gas "run"?? All it can do is backfire because it's loading up with fuel.

a 2 stroke can run backwards but thats not the case here.


POST # 23

The "T" and "F" are nearly impossible to find. PLENTY of machines I take the left cover off, use my dremel and put a slice where they both are. Unless you have a timing light and RPM gauge, I don't think the "F" does much for you.

As I've said before just be aware that this is a 4 stroke. It has TWO - TDC's or Top Dead Centers. Personally, I use a straw in the spark plug hole to find TDC. And if I'm tearing it down, I put it at TDC before I begin tearing into it.........

TDC 1 is the firing/compression stroke. TDC 2 is the exhaust or "I'm all done and ready to begin again" stroke. NO TDC will bend a valve, but a few teeth off may very well do that without youi knowing. The person who suggested a TBSP of oil is correct, if compression goes up then your rings are bad or the piston and cylinder too haven't been done in some time.

It's very simple to time ANY 4 STROKE! Put the piston at TDC and make sure the rocker arms have no pressure on them, the lobes should be DOWN or UP, depending on the design but it means that they are in the relaxed position which mean compression position and firing position. I don't need notches, "O's" or marks; I just need a straw in the plug hole.....

With the 83-85 200X the problem many of you have is that you have it a TDC but it's not on the firing stroke and the pulse generator will show this. Simply removing the cam sprocket bolts and turning the crank one revolution and setting it again at TDC and set to FIRE solves this very easy. Maybe thats why the 86/87 200X pulse generator runs off the flywheel and the sprocket is welded to the cam. So your lobes should be DOWN or away from the rocker arms. Tghis is also when and where you set the initial rocker arm clearance - about .003 thousandths for most Honda early engines.

Now the pricks have a uni cam with one rocker arm running the decompression or something which is ALLOT harder to do. It has permanent shims, nothing to adjust. You measure it, do the math and HOPEFULLY your done............ It's one PITA unless you do it once a month or something and it remains fresh in your head.....

Hopefully you have a compression tester (I just skimmed this topic) so you can check the PSI and figure out if it's valves or rings or just out of time. Regardless, I always lap the valves, I can't recut the seat but any early Honda gets by with a lapping unless the valve is bent.

Good luck!
DC


POST #45

IDK Did you read my post? or if you misunderstood me. PLEASE read it and you'll know if the cam is at the right TDC or 180 out.

I know it's hard to use the "search feature" but when I explain it in your thread and you ask the lobe position question again, I'm just shaking my head wondering????????????????

The lobes go DOWN and AWAY from the rocker arms, set the rough rocker arm gap right at that setting and time too.

I explained 180 out, everything? I'm your own free personal service manual and you still won't read me!!??

Then we have someone tell you to adjust the valves with the valve caps off and RUNNING!! :crazy:

And you yourself admit you "glanced at the Haynes Manual" so whats the point of trying to help someone ??

I try to help, try to be clear and it's a week and 7 pages of misinformation and you not reading. If you'd read you'd learn, knowledge is power!! Wouldn't it be nice to do this confidently??

I get emails from people thanking me and others that think I suk..................

[oldtoys72]

DC, sorry for the frustration man! I'm not the worlds greatest mechanic by a long shot that's for sure! I will go back to the beginning and read through everything... Riddle me this (even if you have covered it in here somewhere already) I believe what I was doing was setting the timing on the wrong stroke, I think the last time I did it was on the proper stroke, for some reason I have a feeling I put the cam in upside down though (with the tit in the 4 o'clock position) just a feeling for some reason, would the trike run that way? If this is a dumb question I apologize but I reallý know nothing about motors man! I'm at work now otherwise I would read the posts and research it myself but I don't have time and want a quick answer from one of you guru's!

[Dirtcrasher]

The piston has 2 TDC's - We have that down......

1 - Compresses and Fires
2 - Exhausts

Your cam sprocket has an "O" marked on it. IDNK if it goes up or down. I have an 86 but it's all the same principal. Just look at your book.

That sprocket BOLTS to the cam which you can insert with the lobes PERFECTLY UP or PERFECTLY DOWN.

PERFECTLY DOWN is the compression stroke and ready to fire. Do not rotate the engine and when you put your rocker box on, set each valve to it's setting; Might be .003"

All of this is USELESS if you are not 100% positive you are at TDC on the flywheel and using the crank nut to turn is easier than the kicker. It's also easier with the spark plug out.

As I said before Honda did not make the "T" and "F" very easy to see, so either remove the cover to confirm it, or use a straw in the plug hole - BUT, that is a bit more advanced unless you have done 25 engines.....

REMEMBER, TDC is the 1st step, then play with the cam and loosen the tensioner up so the chain pulls up and on the cam freely.

That is 100% the best I can do for you. Now go read your book and you feel like an expert :D If it does not run, you have another issue...............

[4cylinders]

hey, stop at your pet store, look for the light to look in your pets ears. works great to look in cylinders etc..

[Trble]

Get a set of those safety glasses with the little led lights on each side should work good =)

[Texas 200x]

Pistons just go up and down, your cam can't be 180 out, 90 out but not 180. Your ignition timing can be 180 out.

[jonathandexter]

Dude are you kidding!!! After all this nonsense!!! time and peoples energy, Take the motor out of your bike place it in a safe place. Shoot it with the largest gun you have, as many times as you can! Then Piss on it ok?!, toss it in the trash. And go buy a new freaking engine. Gawd I never heard so much nonsense in my whole life... Its a tiney little 200x engine. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhg!!!