Case split gurus please help! about splitting cases, please

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I split the cases on my 85 Tecate. The old cases were cracked and welded and i found a set in very great shape. That is the only reason i'm doing this. Anyway, i asked before about the transmission not turning after i put them back together. got some great feedback and figured it out. Let me say this, the shift shaft and the shift wheel don't interchange from 84 to 85. Just heads up for anyone wondering. that was my problem.

Now, i have a couple other questions. i replaced all the seals that came in a pack I bought a while back so i think I'm god there. All the bearings are in what appears to be great shape.

First question, I took the crank bearings off the crank. They seem to be in good order. Can i reuse them or is that a big no no. Is that one of those parts that needs replaced regardless? Second, when I put the crank bearings in, do i press them into the cases and then put the cases together around the crank?

Third, i have a complete gasket set. But it has no gasket for between the cases. Is there no gasket there? When i put the cases back together do i just put on some gasket sealer or something?

Any other advice you guys have for me while I have them apart and am in there? Everything looks great. Nothing shows wear hardly at all. Looks like the person who owned it really didn't do to much beating on it.

Thanks in advance. Sorry so long.

[3Razors]

What does the manual say?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Manual is vague and basically absent when it comes to splitting cases. It's horrible. Frustrating to say the least.

[3Razors]

On page 7-5 on Kawasaki OEM Tecate manual it says:

"Clean off and wipe dry the mating surfaces of the crankcase halves, and apply liquid gasket to the mating surface of the left crankcase half."

Doesn't get any more clear than that, the whole section describes the process of disassembly and assembly of the cases and tranny.

[Yamaha_Rules69]

You will definatly want to replace the cranks main bearrings and seals - it is good insurance to a reliable engine, and should be replaced whenever the cases are split. For the mating surfaces, there is a special gasket silicon that should be used - three bond (same as yama-bond or honda-bond) it comes in a grey silicon looking tube. For the instalation of the new bearrings - you could use a press, or you can have them installed by heating the inside cases or bearring, and the bearring will go right in. Another option would be to bring the cases, crank, trans gears, bearrings and bolts to a shop, and have them install them. It probly wouldnt take more than 30 min, they have all the equipment, and they would charge on average $30, and all you would have to do is put the rest together - right side and jug, etc. Good luck!

[Hoosier_Daddy]

On page 7-5 on Kawasaki OEM Tecate manual it says:

"Clean off and wipe dry the mating surfaces of the crankcase halves, and apply liquid gasket to the mating surface of the left crankcase half."

Doesn't get any more clear than that, the whole section describes the process of disassembly and assembly of the cases and tranny.
I was just getting ready to post that i found that. i don't know how I overlooked it before. I was going to post the actual page on this thread just to show it too. That all fine and good. This is my first time doing this so i'm going through growing pains. That's all part of the fun of it for me. Well, as long as I get it right in the end anyway. haha

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You will definatly want to replace the cranks main bearrings and seals - it is good insurance to a reliable engine, and should be replaced whenever the cases are split. For the mating surfaces, there is a special gasket silicon that should be used - three bond (same as yama-bond or honda-bond) it comes in a grey silicon looking tube. For the instalation of the new bearrings - you could use a press, or you can have them installed by heating the inside cases or bearring, and the bearring will go right in. Another option would be to bring the cases, crank, trans gears, bearrings and bolts to a shop, and have them install them. It probly wouldnt take more than 30 min, they have all the equipment, and they would charge on average $30, and all you would have to do is put the rest together - right side and jug, etc. Good luck!

Thanks bro. I have replaced the seals already but I wasn't sure if the bearings were something I could reuse or not. I don't want to save a few bucks now only to spend a bunch more later for taking a shortcut. but I didn't know if reusing bearings that are in good shape was actually a shortcut or not so wanted to get some input.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

BTW, thanks for the heads up also 3Razors.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

OK, so the manual says that i need to put the transmission in nuetral before putting the cases back together. Well, I shift all the way down and then back up a half notch which is neutral and it feels like neutral but when i do it and spin the gears, they all spin as if they are not in neutral. How do i know when it is in nuetral? Why is it so important that it's in nuetral when I press the cases together?

Also, query to Yamaha_Rules69, is it Ok to buy some Honda-bond for my cases? The only dealer in my immediate vicinity is a Honda dealer. If that will work i can get some there.

Third, when I heat up the cases for the bearings to fit in, should I use a propane torch and kind of just run it around the bearing seat? Or are you talking about baking it in an oven for a bit? If so, won't either of those methods damage the new crank seals i installed? And would it help if I freeze the crank bearings then heat the cases? I've heard of similar methods like that for different bearings.

Again, all advice is appreciated. Jason hall said he would help me if I needed it and i do appreciate that offer. But, I really want to do this myself to learn. this is my first time and it is part of the fun. I can be a dumb azz with some of this stuff though so i want to ask questions at every turn so i get it done right.

p.s. If you want to know how much of a doofus i can be about some of this stuff, just ask DirtCrasher when he was trying to help me with my 350X. lol I'm sure he can tell some good stories of my idiocy. haha

But seriously, I really want to learn this and sometimes the manual just isn't very intricate. (accept the part that told me exactly what to do and 3Razors had to point it out to me. Again, I can be a dumb azz at times)

Thanks guys. This site is such a great wealth of knowledge and good people. I don't know what I'd do with out y'all.

[dcreel]

Can you take some pictures as you go? I'm going to be doing this soon as well on a Tecate too.

[SWIGIN]

Honda bond doesn't know the difference, but to be sure hide your green plastic.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Can you take some pictures as you go? I'm going to be doing this soon as well on a Tecate too.
Will do buddy. Will do.:cool:

Also, another question for anyone in the "know" can i use Permatex high tack gasket sealant on the cases when i mate them back together? I already have some of that and it would save a few bucks.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Honda bond doesn't know the difference, but to be sure hide your green plastic.
HaHa. Good point.

[tecat-z]

No. Use the correct sealent. Any cycle shop carries it.

[Dirtcrasher]

Hence the reason I won't say much.

Gears ALWAYS engage and turn each shaft, when you grab one and spin the other freely - it's in neutral.

Some models want the bearing on the crank, some in the case. Those I heat up and freeze the bearing and PULL it into place, then pop the seal in. Each model is a bit diff........ The Honda right side is a hair bigger and slides over the main bearing. I like the left side though, we all have our reasons.

If you press in the crank or a bearing onto the crank, you will put the crank out of true.....

No PERMATEX except for your lawnmower. Get the right crap. I'd love to just sit back, drink a brew and watch you for awhile, :lol:

Obviously this manual is STILL not on you toilet seat........ Uggh.....

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hence the reason I won't say much.

Gears ALWAYS engage and turn each shaft, when you grab one and spin the other freely - it's in neutral.

Some models want the bearing on the crank, some in the case. Those I heat up and freeze the bearing and PULL it into place, then pop the seal in. Each model is a bit diff........ The Honda right side is a hair bigger and slides over the main bearing. I like the left side though, we all have our reasons.

If you press in the crank or a bearing onto the crank, you will put the crank out of true.....

No PERMATEX except for your lawnmower. Get the right crap. I'd love to just sit back, drink a brew and watch you for awhile, :lol:

Obviously this manual is STILL not on you toilet seat........ Uggh.....

haha. I'm actually using the manual this time! Hey, that's a big step right there. The manual does show to put the bearings in the cases and then press onto the crank. Unfortunately, it also shows that you have to have a special tool to keep the crank true. Thanks for the heads up on the permetex. I don't know much about compounds and really don't know what most differences are between stuff like silicones and gasket sealers. that's why i asked. i'll head to the Honda shop and get some Honda bond when I put them together.

So, now I know i need a special tool to keep the crank true. Hmm, where the hell am i going to get that for a 25 year old trike? Unless they are basically universal and can still be acquired from a shop.

Oh, and as far as sitting back and watching me, I am a class clown so i can keep you entertained but i swear to god I am not as ignorant as i come across to be in some of the threads on this site. i promise. lol

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No. Use the correct sealent. Any cycle shop carries it.OK. Hey, what do you do when you split cases? Do you own the special tool to keep the crank true when you press them back together? Or do you have any other tricks up your sleeves that you are willing to tell about? I know you're good with these engines from what i've seen and read.

[NOS_350X]

Ok I didnt read the whole thing, I just need to make sure this gest out there

DONT heat the crank to put in the crank berings.

ONLY put new berings on a crank, There cheap, and its too much work to cheap out on reuseing them.

Take the new berings and put them into the 2 cases, Leave your crank in a freezer overnight and everything will slip together quiclky.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Ok I didnt read the whole thing, I just need to make sure this gest out there

DONT heat the crank to put in the crank berings.

ONLY put new berings on a crank, There cheap, and its too much work to cheap out on reuseing them.

Take the new bearings and put them into the 2 cases, Leave your crank in a freezer overnight and everything will slip together quickly.Hey, awesome idea! I never thought about freezing the crank! Thanks for that tip bro. And yes, I'm not taking shortcuts. I will be buying new bearings from Dad's. I'm probably going to ask a boatload of, what may seem to be stupid questions, but that is simply because i don't want to take shortcuts and i want it done right. Sometimes i just don't know what is safe to reuse and what is a must to buy new. So, what better waythen to come here and ask? Thanks for the advice!

[fabiodriven]

I've never heard of any tool that keeps the crank true during install. If there were some sort of "brace" or something on the crank during install, how would you get it out once the cases are together?

[Dirtcrasher]

^Pray the plastic hammer taps them apart or use the tool that threads behind the stator and only pushes on one side of the crank, I've never hard a hard one fortunately (thats sounded bad.......) :lol:

I never use the "tool" I have my way of pulling the crank in without harming the bearing or crank.

But, it'f far too much to explain, too many variables. If you can get a TOOL to do this then do do or find out how others do it..........

Please don't say "All Balls " crank mains, please...................

[Hoosier_Daddy]

OK, for those of you who are wondering about the special tool i'm talking about in the manual, here is the page that shows it. It is called a crankshaft installing jig. It looks like it would be an easy tool to fabricate myself.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm270/73transamsd/2stroke%20vs%204stroke/T3crankspecialtool.jpg?t=1276040898

Now, this page is an example of what drives me crazy when trying to use the manuals and not getting advice from people who know what is going on, hence why i come here and ask even though i am going by the manual. OK, look at this page. It clearly shows and tells to use a bearing press to press the bearings into the cases. OK, fine. But then in the next steps it clearly shows the bearings installed on the crank before the crank is installed into the case and shows how to use the crank installing jig. So, what the hell is a guy supposed to do? If this is not contradictory, i don't know what is. This is why i ask so many, seemingly, dumb questions because i run into this crap a lot with the manuals.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm270/73transamsd/2stroke%20vs%204stroke/T3crankassemble.jpg?t=1276041247

[Dirtcrasher]

All that tool does is hold the crank halves apart, it must have a taper so it can be tapped a bit until resistence is felt, simple.

A frozen crank goes in just as easy. BUT, Im PULL it in with spacers and the internal or external left or right threads and the spacer rests against the ID so no damage is done. Some people do not understand HOW things are getting damaged.

You have to live, learn, make mistakes but don't charge anyone until you confidence is 100% :lol:

I freeze mains, tap them in - simple things like KNOWING only to hit the OD of a bearing in this manner means a 2 year rebuild or a 10 year.

Removing them, if you overtighten the 2 bolts behind the bearing before you press them off, you score the crank.

Bearings in cases I put in the oven, cranks in the freezer - ALL NIGHT LONG and I move fast. I have seal drivers to tap them in. Having a lathe allows you to install seals after the crank is in.

There is SO much more than just splitiing a case, it's the tips and tricks learned by experience or MMI.

We could talk about it all day... I could write for hours. Wanna learn? Go to MMI.....

It's my opinion that this is some reasons why motors blow up in the 1st year......

Just Honda 250R as a case, the left seal goes in 5MM PAST FLUSH, how many guys read and or remember that?? Then there's a crank leak...................

As for the splitter, the studs go in the case, it pushes on the crank center. As long as ALL THE BOLTS ARE OUT, it won't harm a crank.

I don't use or need any of those tools..................

[tecat-z]

It's an unnecessary tool. As the warm bearing/frozen crank method is all i have ever used. Never had a crank that wouldn't drop in perfectly. Weather it's a Tecate engine, 250R, yz250, Tri-z, rm85 etc. It's all the same principal. Expand one, and shrink the other. Have the trans correctly installed, cases preped with locating dowels, bonded and ready to go. If you do this in a well thought out sequence. It will literaly fall together so fast the bearings will still be warm, and crank cold as you're tightening the final case bolt. Don't forget to coat the seal lips with grease before dropping the crank.

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Thank you Ed :D Those tools are a fortune and a little thought/ingenuity does the same! :beer

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thanks guys.

[kristofrogers]

I just finished a similar project on my 85 Tecate (with an '85 Suzuk LT250r Quadracer engine). I hope yours goes smoothly. I got my goin' again and there's no better feeling that hearing your baby fire back up after having the engine yoinked out of the chasis!

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Is this the right stuff to use on the cases? I hope so since i already bought it. lol

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm270/73transamsd/2stroke%20vs%204stroke/DSCN0962.jpg?t=1276358973

[Dirtcrasher]

Yes, thats fine.

That tapered jig would NOT be easy to make without allot of work so just do it the ways suggested.

I HOPE this works out better than the OTHER projects have :rolleyes:

No worries - At least your entertaining :D

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, thats fine.

That tapered jig would NOT be easy to make without allot of work so just do it the ways suggested.

I HOPE this works out better than the OTHER projects have :rolleyes:

No worries - At least your entertaining :D
lol Thanks, man. The 350X knocked me down a peg. I'll admit that! :lol:

[Hoosier_Daddy]

OK, yes, I am still working on this thing. I have decided that it is just better to take it at a turtles pace and make sure I am doing things correctly and asking questions along the way. I don't want to be one of the people who put it together and 2 weeks later it blows apart or something. I do have questions and I am sorry that i don't know some of the official technical names of some of the parts. I am now in the middle of freezing the crankshaft and crank bearings and plan to try to marry the case halves tomorrow, using yamabond of course. Now for some questions;

1. should I expect that some parts like certain rods will be a real pain to get inserted in the proper place as I put the cases together? Is there any advice for me to help get everything lined up correctly?

2. I can shift through the gears, and i have everything put together just like the manual shows and it fits together correctly. BUT, it seems like I can shift down and then back up only about 3 times. Is this normal until the cases are put together? Because this would mean i would only have 3 or 4 gears instead of five. Does the cases line something up that allows for that last shift? Also, I am having a hard time getting it to shift into neutral. Is this something else that corrects itself after the case line things up? Like I said, I have everything done just like the manual shows.

3. the rod that goes into the cases that shifts the gears, the one that the shift lever attaches to, I have 2 different ones. Unfortunately, one is bent and if i use that one, it pulls the seal down and would leak oil there. The other one is nice and straight but about a 1/4 inch of the end is broken off. This means i likely won't be able to secure the shift lever to it. Is it a cardinal sin to tack weld the shift lever on there if i use that one? i don't mean cobble it up with a gorilla weld, but just tack on the lever? Or is that one of the hick tactics that i should avoid? because i really don't know how else to do it.

4, when i apply the Yamabond, should i just use a slim bead? Apply it liberally? And should i assemble it right away after applying the adhesive or give the adhesive a few seconds first?

Sorry about all the questions, especially ones that many of you think are elementary, but i just really want to do this right and this is my first time and it means a lot to me. This Tecate is my pride and joy and i want it done right. That is why I have had the patience to slowly buy parts here and there and do things slowly (for over 2 years now to be exact).

[Dirtcrasher]

1) No, All rods should insert smoothly. Light oil everywhere.

1A)Ddo not assemble them tough, something is wrong! Pull the case together inwards by using spacers on the INNER RACE and the flywheel nut/bolt or the other side nut and with spacers.......

2)You have to spin the main and or countershaft to get every gear. I have seen a guy put 2 forks in one groove, not good! Hopefully you did not touch the trannyb gears but even one small thrust washer will create an issue............. usually they sat "R" "C" or "L".......

3)I'm lost...............................The drum should shift ever gear easily, you don't need a shift shaft to shift it.

4) Follow yamabond/3bond directions. I use a thin acid brush and do a thin layer on both sides. By the time I'm done and pulling them together, the stuff has setb up......

Once installed every single gear should shift with the crank power by hand or the output/countershaft - It's all CHICKEN..... It's EASY but you MUST understand how it works and whats important!!

GOOD LUCK HD!! our track record isn't impeccable........ :D

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thanks DC. I will take your advice to heart. As far as the shifting, it is probably my imagination because i am so worried about doing this correctly. I have checked a dozen times to make sure everything is in it's correct position. I did have to remove the tranny gears to place them into the other case but i pulled them all out as a whole and put them in the same way. I have made sure all the shift forks are in their own grooves. Thanks a ton for your advice. i will do just like you said. Thanks for the advice and appreciate the wishing me luck. You of all people know i need all the luck I can get with this stuff.:lol:

I am taking my sweet time with this but i will certainly keep you updated on my progress. You advice has been invaluable to me. Take care bud.:cool:

[fabiodriven]

The last time I put mine together I noticed the shift shaft was bent. My brother wanted to stop the assembly and wait until I got a new shaft. I am a lot more impatient and I said to hell with that. Let's put this biatch together and RUN IT! (Deepa 3:15) It has never leaked, but that's not to say yours won't leak. It depends on how bent they are.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The last time I put mine together I noticed the shift shaft was bent. My brother wanted to stop the assembly and wait until I get a new shaft. I am a lot more impatient and I said to hell with that. Let's put this biatch together and RUN IT! (Deepa 3:15) It has never leaked, but that's not to say yours won't leak. It depends on how bent they are.
Yeah, mine is bent bad enough that you can actually see light through the seal. So the straight one is my only option for now. i am considering just cutting about a 1/2" piece of rod the diameter and welding it onto the shift shaft and trying to do it that way. If worse comes to worse, i'll just tack on the shift lever but do it so that i can grind it back off when needed. i won't cobble it up. Thanks bro.

[fabiodriven]

I've got a few of those lying around. If I'm not mistaken, there is a difference between the 84 and 85 shafts, but I could be wrong. I have a brandy-new NOS one in the box too. :naughty: I hate to dangle them in front of your nose, I would gladly send you one, but unfortunately I do not have access to any of them. My on-going garage build has all my parts in a heap in the shed and I can't get to any of them. Wish I could help Rob. :(

[Dirtcrasher]

^ You and your dumb arse garage.... :lol: J/K

Just follow the book, search the threads and ALLOT of common mechanical sense is needed.

I've done quite a few and they are ALL a bit different but the bearing install corretcly etc is crucial.................

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I've got a few of those lying around. If I'm not mistaken, there is a difference between the 84 and 85 shafts, but I could be wrong. I have a brandy-new NOS one in the box too. :naughty: I hate to dangle them in front of your nose, I would gladly send you one, but unfortunately I do not have access to any of them. My on-going garage build has all my parts in a heap in the shed and I can't get to any of them. Wish I could help Rob. :(That's cool bro. I'll make due. Appreciate the sentiments though. Yes, One of mine is an 84 and the other is an 85. There is a difference. You can use either one but you have to also use the shift wheel from the same year for it to work properly. That was a trail and error for me but i did get it figureded out before any problems arose, thank god.

DC, I did get the bearings in. I left them in the freezer over night and just gently tapped them into the cases with a soft rubber mallet and they went in good. The crank is still in the freezer until i can get to it. Now, i'll just have make sure i am careful pulling the cases together. I'm going to try your methed.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My mother in law lives in New Hampshire and my father in law lives in Massachusetts. I should pack up the family and move that direction so i can catch up with you guys from time to time. Seems like you're always getting together. Well, if i get a chance to take a vacation with the in laws some time maybe i can catch up with some of you guys then. Some day.

then again, I would be leaving Swinehart behind and he is good people too.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This save me from retyping it all. http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php?117081-oK-I-m-getting-sick-of-this-split-case&p=899553&posted=1#post899553

[Hoosier_Daddy]

On my tecate decided to split cases and replace with good one. What a mess. I have been working on this for 8 months. Taking them apart si not problem. Now that i am putting them back to together at a snails pace the problems never end. I have made sure everything is correct. Problem is, it doesn't matter what I do the cases will not fit back to together. I have check to make sure everything is lined up and it is. Problem is, the case wont go back together at all! putting them in a vice, absolutely nothing woks. They just stay stack about an inch apart. I froze the bearings and crank. The bearing dropped right it and the one side of the crank slipped right in. It's the other side that is giving me a problem so say the least. I'm about ready to wash my hands with it and let it rot away in the garage I'm so frustrated.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Update, was able to get it to back together. Now everything moves freely as afar as I know but the crank seeks a little tight. I can move it just fine with effort but it seems to be tight. Unlike before I took it apart the crank spun freely. Is this normal? A by product of having new crank bearings in there is is something assembled wrong? Please tell me i don't have to rip it back apart again. I took so much time on this do make sure it was done right.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I t tells who to split cases and vaquely explains how to work on the inside components but I can't for the life of e find a section on how to marry the cases back together!

[3Razors]

Also before you get too excited make sure it shifts through the gears properly. This tool makes it easy for the left side install.

http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/productDetail.do?navType=type&webTypeId=140&navTitle=Tools%2FShop&webCatId=22&keyword=CRANKCASE+SEPERATOR&prodFamilyId=17166

[3Razors]

The oem factory Tecate manual doesn't give step by step instructions for putting the motor back together. It gives notices and specs but was written for "seasoned" mechanics. If you want a more beginner friendly manual, buy the CLYMER book for KX125, KX250 82-91, KX500 83-04. The 83-84 KX250 motor section is same process for the Tecate in that manual, same thing for the 86 Tecate/KX250.

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thanks I'll check it out bud

[Vootie]

Update, was able to get it to back together. Now everything moves freely as afar as I know but the crank seeks a little tight. I can move it just fine with effort but it seems to be tight. Unlike before I took it apart the crank spun freely. Is this normal? A by product of having new crank bearings in there is is something assembled wrong? Please tell me i don't have to rip it back apart again. I took so much time on this do make sure it was done right.

I think you are fine, as long as it spins smoothly. I had the same thing when I rebuilt my blaster. Before the rebuild, the crank spun so free it would almost spin itself. After the rebuild, it wasn't that loose. It spun nicely, but felt a little tight. I believe it's the new seals that cause the little bit of drag. That was two hard seasons ago on it and all is well.

[Dirtcrasher]

I hate to say it BUT:

It should be smooth as can be, and shift every gear....... VERY SMOOTH!! Thats why I put allot of seals in last to make sure that they aren't dragging.

With most motors, one side slips in easy, the other has to be pulled in by the inner race in the case or damage results. Then the other side slips together easy.

If drawing your cases together was putting force on the main bearing ID to the crank OD, then thats the side that should have been drawn in (although either side can be drawn in with the right tools) If you tap it together and it's tough or use the bolts to get it together, then something got damaged; ever so slightly.........

Lots of guys can put cases together but they won't last as long because of installation technique, thats why they have the tools!!

If this was your 1st, it's best to have someone around with you who's done it before.......