Stirring the 2 Stroke Pot

[Silverado]

I was talking to a fellow at the local bike shop and he was teasing me because I have never tried a 2 Stroke. I have some bias against the 2 stroke and would like to hear from the 2 stoke guys.

are 2 strokes more work ?

1) Do you have to mix oil and gas to some ratio every time you fill up...As in you always have to be measuring oil and gas ? (+ one point 4 stroke for only having to fill up at the pump)
2) Fact or Fiction - The 2 stroke parts wear out faster than the 4 stoke because the engine is firing essentially 2 times for every 1 time a 4 stroke fires ( more wear and tear) (point 4 stoke ?)
3) The 2 stroke has more power right away due to the quicker firing of the piston ( + one point 2 stroke) [true or false]
4) I am assuming that since you mix oil with gas you don't have to change the oil on a 2 stoke since you change it every time you fill up (no messy oil change + one point 2 stroke) [true or false]
5) one of the machines will have more torque. I am going to assume 4 stoke since to equal the power of a 2 stoke the 4 stroke engine will have bigger parts and longer stroke more displacement ? ( Need advice)
6) 2 stroke has less moving parts (less parts to replace [kinda goes against point 2]) [true or false]
7) 2 stoke 250cc engine is smaller than a 250cc 4 stroke thus lighter machines for same power (point 2 stoke) [true or false]
8) which burns cleaner ? does the cleanliness of burning effect any parts (need advice)
9) Noise- 2 stroke is louder- Tink Tink Tink Tink....not good for residential around when playing with the engine (depends where you live and if you like a loud machine)
10) Parts, what is more common 4 stroke parts or 2 stroke parts ? is industry moving around from 2 stoke? is it a thing of the past ?

Please guys, let me know. i am not trying to hate on a 2 stroke or side with a 4 stroke I am just ill informed and would like to hear from some of the members who have experience in this area.

[fabiodriven]

1- You do have to mix gas and oil. I usually mix either a 5 gallon container or a 2.5 gallon container. This keeps it simple. A lot of guys won't agree with me on this, but if I need to I will just guesstimate the amount of oil if I need to fill the tank on the bike. Never had a problem in over 15 years of doing this.

2- A properly maintained two stroke will last just as long as a thumper. My Tecate is still on its original 15 year old Nikasil cylinder lining.

3- Two strokes will walk all over an older thumper, but the new thumpers are a whole different animal. They will keep right up with a pinger.

4- The oil you change in a two stroke only lubes the transmission. In my opinion you do not need to change it as much as a thumper which shares the tranny oil with the motor.

5- ?

6- Less moving parts. Totally true and a big selling point to me.

7- Two strokes are smaller and lighter than the equivalent thumper and typically do produce more power.

8- Thumpers burn cleaner by nature. That's no secret. The "dirtier" pinger is designed to run the way it does. The only effect is on the environment. No bad effects on the machine.

9- You can make any machine, two or four stroke, loud or quiet. It just depends on what you want.

10- The four stroke has advanced in leaps and bounds over the last few years. Two strokes are still out there, and they are still produced, as are their parts. Although the new thumpers are incredibly impressive power-wise, I have heard the maintenance on them is costly and sometimes difficult to do yourself. I don't own any newer thumpers, so I don't know for sure. All I can go by is what I hear.


All in all, do not be scared to get a pinger. I see people on here a lot that share the same concerns as you when it comes to pingers. Their fears are unfounded in my opinion.

[Silverado]

When you speak or the "new" thumpers I am guessing all ATCs 4 strokes are "Old Thumpers"

If thats the case I am really angry...HULK level angry that Honda can't and won't make new atcs with new thumper technology.

[fabiodriven]

When you speak or the "new" thumpers I am guessing all ATCs 4 strokes are "Old Thumpers"

If thats the case I am really angry...HULK level angry that Honda can't and won't make new atcs with new thumper technology.

All ATC's are of the "older" design if you ask me. If you want a newer one, you have to make it yourself or get a TPC. The TPC is very pricey, but worth it in my opinion.

[Silverado]

TPC is.....?

[HuffieVA]

Mostly in agreement with Fabio, but here goes...

1) YES it can vary a bit but when properly tuned (jetted) to your mix (which includes grade of gas as well as mix ratio) you will want to keep it as constant as you can
2) 2 strokes are generally speaking “race bikes” if you race all the time things are going to wear out (i.e. The NHRA Top Fuel guys put a new top end in for every pass) now that four strokes are being built to race they wear out as well, The good news is that there are very few moving parts to a 2 stroke and you do not have to have a degree in engineering to rebuild one yourself
3) A two stroke tend to favor a certain RPM range and many can be tuned to fit your riding style, whatever it may be
4) You have to change the oil in the gear box
5) Yes a 4t generally has more low end grunt than a 2t
6) A lot less… No Valves, No Cams, no timing chain etc
7) Lighter and more power, which is why if you want to run a 250cc 2t in moto motocross you are forced to run against the 450 four strokes
8) Currently and historically 4 strokes are a lot cleaner, however with direct injection two strokes starting to appear (sleds and marine engines) a clean burning 2 stroke bike is just around the corner
9) You can make either one quiet, if your talking race bikes though the four strokes have a deep thunderous roar that tends to carry farther and piss more folks off than the 2t’s it has led to the loss of many riding areas
10) Pro motocross uses 4t’s now so that’s what the kids want, but it seems that 2t’s are making a bit of a comeback, they are still available in one form or another from just about everybody but Honda. Parts are not a problem (talking bike parts in general)

I love my smokers and tend to only have thumpers around for work (Big Red), the kids and for the street (but I do have a R5/RD350 project in the works)

[fabiodriven]

http://www.tpctrikes.com/

[Xhumeka]

I must say - I really like the new thumpers. I've had my Husky TE450 dirtbike for 2 years now, and I don't feel the maintenance is any harder than on a Honda 350X ATC. Adjusting the valves may be a LITTLE easier on the Honda, but that's just because of the design of the valves.

Back in the day, I prefered 2 strokes... but today give me my Husky thumper ANY day of the week! I just wish I could throw this motor in one of my trikes!!

[Silverado]

Yeah, listening to you guys talk about the new thumpers I am surprised that nothing new can go in the spot of the old thumpers.

That would be nice to put in a new 4 stroke engine which would solve the problem of locating items that are not in production anymore.

[Dirtcrasher]

^ It's not just the engine, it's the axle, the bushings, the grommets, the plastic and so on..

Thats why eventually we'll all have hybrids if were riders and true trike enthusiasts. Where's my software?? :lol:

[Ironbnder]

2) 2 strokes are generally speaking “race bikes” - as quoted from above. This statement is maybe why two strokes are scary to some people. I have 3 Polaris ATVs that are 2 strokes and they are far from race bikes. My 10 year old rides a 90cc, the wife a 250 and I ride a 400, and we ride as long and as easy as we want with no problems at all. I have never changed a spark plug in the 90 or the 250. There are many other 2 strokes that putt through life in all kinds of applications. If you are comparing race bikes to race bikes or an all around 2 stroke engine, there is a huge difference.

[Silverado]

The purpose of this thread is mainly comparing honda 3 wheelers. 2 stroke vs 4 stroke


nothing new.....all Olde style tinkers vs thumpers

[oldskool83]

1) Do you have to mix oil and gas to some ratio every time you fill up...As in you always have to be measuring oil and gas ? yes normally a cheap measuring cup your fav oil and some gas.

2) Fact or Fiction - The 2 stroke parts wear out faster than the 4 stoke because the engine is firing essentially 2 times for every 1 time a 4 stroke fires ( more wear and tear) well compaired to the 1970/80's 4 strokes yes, compaired to the 00-10's style 4 strokes no.

3) The 2 stroke has more power right away due to the quicker firing of the piston, YES TRUE

4) I am assuming that since you mix oil with gas you don't have to change the oil on a 2 stoke since you change it every time you fill up (no messy oil change + one point 2 stroke) WRONG! crank cause oil like 30 weight has nothing to do with oil in the gas.

5) one of the machines will have more torque. I am going to assume 4 stoke since to equal the power of a 2 stoke the 4 stroke engine will have bigger parts and longer stroke more displacement ? depends, 250 to 500cc 2 stroke have good torque for 2 strokes, 4 strokes will normaly have more.


6) 2 stroke has less moving parts (less parts to replace [kinda goes against point 2]) TRUE, duh!

7) 2 stoke 250cc engine is smaller than a 250cc 4 stroke thus lighter machines for same power (point 2 stoke) WRONG engines same size, 2 stroke rule is 4 stroke has to be about doubled to match power of 2 stroke.

8) which burns cleaner ? does the cleanliness of burning effect any parts (need advice)...out of the factory new a 4 stroke...used bikes that are abused...ive seen 4 strokes smoke more then 2 strokes, normaly a 4 stroke will burn cleaner.

9) Noise- 2 stroke is louder- Tink Tink Tink Tink....not good for residential around when playing with the engine (depends where you live and if you like a loud machine) not totaly true....new style 4 strokes or piped older 4 strokes are just as loud if not louder, its just not a zing wine sound.

10) Parts, what is more common 4 stroke parts or 2 stroke parts ? is industry moving around from 2 stoke? is it a thing of the past ? 2 stroke parts are out there more, industry standware was MX and mostly offroad was 2 stroke, play bikes and trail bikes were 4 strokes..

it sounds like you need to ride a 2 stroke, i grew up on them but changed 80's style air cooled to 4 strokes only because of trail riding, a 250 2 stroke dont work good for me bashing trees at 10mph in the woods...a 4 stroke will for me. open areas id rather have a 2 stroke...

[HuffieVA]

2) 2 strokes are generally speaking “race bikes” - as quoted from above. This statement is maybe why two strokes are scary to some people. I have 3 Polaris ATVs that are 2 strokes and they are far from race bikes. My 10 year old rides a 90cc, the wife a 250 and I ride a 400, and we ride as long and as easy as we want with no problems at all. I have never changed a spark plug in the 90 or the 250. There are many other 2 strokes that putt through life in all kinds of applications. If you are comparing race bikes to race bikes or an all around 2 stroke engine, there is a huge difference.

You are correct, however your Polaris' are set up to run automatically at what is basically a constant RPM through the snowmobile type auto transmission, this take alot of the learning curve and IMO alot of the fun out of the ride... there are many two strokes out there that are not race bikes, I have a few early Yamaha AT 125's and an RD350 (street bike), in addition I use my one of my Tecate's for trail riding rather than racing... my point being You can ride a race bike/trike slow if you so choose but you'll have a hard time getting good lap times on a Big Red... My 12 year old has been on my Tecate, and he rides just fine, but he has ridden since he was five and knows his limits, he certainly didnt start out on it... He prefers a 4t though, but its all a matter of personal preference

[HuffieVA]

The purpose of this thread is mainly comparing honda 3 wheelers. 2 stroke vs 4 stroke


nothing new.....all Olde style tinkers vs thumpers

Ok then, here is my analysis based on three wheelers thru 1987:

Four Stroke = Good utility and all around trail rider
Two Stroke = Good for Trails & Track

There are a few exceptions like the 200X/350X that walk the center line but still lean towards more trail than track....

But none of the answers to your questions have really changed...

[Dammit!]

Just a note on the sound issue. A 250R with a stock exhaust system can be surprisingly quiet. The deep tones of a thumper tend to carry more over long distances as well. Any aftermarket exhaust on a pinger will be fairly loud though.

[Jeepermc]

My regular ride is a 350 Banshee. I bought it new in 05.. Before I piped it I could hear the tires spinning in the sand over the exhaust on it.. I have done nothing to the motor except jet it for the pipes. A rebuild when needed will be easy... It whoops on piped stock new 450's. It whooped on my cousins 700 raptor before he did alot of work to it...I still keep up and end up about a bike length behind in a 100 yd drag with him with nothing other than piped and jetted. As soon as it's time for a rebuild it'll get a mild dune port and whoop on raptors again...

Two strokes take some getting used to but can be a whole lot more fun that a 4 stroke...

[WilliamJ]

I was talking to a fellow at the local bike shop and he was teasing me because I have never tried a 2 Stroke. I have some bias against the 2 stroke and would like to hear from the 2 stoke guys.

I come from a very strong four stroke background and until I started playing with trike 2 strokes I was always biased towards the four strokes.
However I have been really impressed with the two strokes (Tri Z and 250r Honda Pilot) that I have ridden and worked on. I have a couple of things to add to the debate.

3) The 2 stroke has more power right away due to the quicker firing of the piston ( + one point 2 stroke) [true or false]
The 2 stroke has more power - it is rarely compared like for like with a four stroke. 250r vs 250cc four stroke. Even a modern 250cc four stroke would not compete.


5) one of the machines will have more torque. I am going to assume 4 stoke since to equal the power of a 2 stoke the 4 stroke engine will have bigger parts and longer stroke more displacement ? ( Need advice)
The 2 stroke has more power AND it has more torque, but at different points in the rev range. A thumper has more torque at lower revs - that's the way they are configured. If you made them racing screamers they too would lose their low end torque. The 250r is a highly tuned racing engine made to rev. That is why it is peaky (power wise). It could be developed further but only by making it more peaky.
In the days when the Grand Prix bikes were all 2 strokes they made around 240HP from 500ccs. 480HP per litre. There are no four strokes that can do that - unless they are turbo charged!


Modern four strokes are more powerful than 80s models. 4 valves and even 5 valves per cylinder not forgetting VTEC timing and lift. But these things have sacrificed the low end torque to some extent.

[Xpress]

Regarding noise levels:

My 200X and my XR200R are both louder than any 2 stroke for miles around here. My 200X has a Cobra on it, which is almost like not even having an exhaust :lol:

A 2 stroke with stock exhaust would be whisper quiet to me.

[motorhead]

Let me add 2 cents to this conversation; but oldskool, fabio, and others have pretty much answered your questions in the technical sense, they all did a great job.

And I know you added,that you were comparing 2-stroke and 4-stroke ATC's, but there is more that that to the 2-stroke allure.

I grew up riding and racing motorcycles, in the late 1960's and 1970's; and the 2-strokes were the only fast choices in town. Honda Elsinore's, Yamaha MX's, YZ's, Suzuki RM's; plus the European Maicos, Husky's, and others. The 4-strokes were heavy and slow; and harder to work on, and more expensive.

The above were the dirt choices; then on the street we had the Kawasaki Triples, Suzuki Triples, and many other 2-stroke choices.

With the new Federal Gov EPA regulations and junk fuel; the above machines are almost extinct; only collectors mess with them.

Once you have experienced that rush of power when that 2-stroke "came up on the pipe", and the screamin' sound just below your legs; you can never forget it. Not to mention that cloud of blue smoke behind you. I'm glad I experienced those days.

I don't have a 2-stroke ATC right now; but a couple of 2-stroke motorcycles are still here.

1974 Yamaha TA-125 (Factory Roadracer)
1974 Kaw H-2, 750cc
1974 Suzuki GT-750
1974 Penton Hare Scrambler, KTM for the West Coast people
1975 Can-Am 175 TNT/ OR
1985 RZ-350

[Dirtcrasher]

My friends two strokes are as quiet or quieter than most thumpers......

As long as you run them, a good rebuild lasts a long time; You don't want crank seals and main bearings drying up on a pinger.

I've owned at least a dozen 2 strokes, and the almighty 250R (were talking trikes here right?) and unfortunately, my thumb is faster than my balance is good. So I tend to get hurt/dirtcrasher more on 2 strokes. My 94 CR250 hurt me bad!

Anyhow, the guys I hang with, don't go crazy and seem well in control of there 250R's or Tecate's, so it has to be me.

2 strokes go from a steady rise to an explosive "HANG ON" ride inj less than a second. Thats why the powervalves and such were developed; In order to alleviate that lightswitch powerband.

I'm no pusssy and it's easy for me to try and show off, thats when I get hurt. If all you want to do is bhuy a big bore and drag a 2 stroke, maybe there for you. Or maybe you can control yourself better than I :beer

[tapper190]

That could be arranged, lol
Tapper


I must say - I really like the new thumpers. I've had my Husky TE450 dirtbike for 2 years now, and I don't feel the maintenance is any harder than on a Honda 350X ATC. Adjusting the valves may be a LITTLE easier on the Honda, but that's just because of the design of the valves.

Back in the day, I prefered 2 strokes... but today give me my Husky thumper ANY day of the week! I just wish I could throw this motor in one of my trikes!!

[hang&rattle]

Mixing is pretty easy. 1 bottle of Belray HR1 for 3 gal.= 32:1. When you pull to the pump, it can be dumped in your tank and mixed, then watch for 3 gallons. The thing is, ever since I got my 1st motorcycle in 1979, a little RM 50, I loved the smell of dad's 2-stroke. Can't tell you where or what time of year we went riding, but I remember the smell of the 2-stroke, that's what a cycle should smell like to me. And it's like ford, dodge or chevy, the best truck is the one you have had the best luck with. I haven't had real good luck with 4-strokes, but that's just me.

[Xhumeka]

That could be arranged, lol
Tapper

Oh man that's tempting!! This motor pumps out close to 50hp stock...