Discussion on cool head cooling.

[3Razors]

Those heads might look cool and all. BUT they wont cool the cylinder as good as the stock head/gasket setup. They don't mimick the factory head gasket to direct the water flow to the exhaust area.

You want the coolant openings to look like this. And before anyone jumps in and says bigger openings are better, that is not the way it works. The gasket is there to direct the flow pattern and the engineers had a specific flow rate that used optimal size openings to keep the engine cool.

[Plow Man]

Not true. If you had a head in your hand you would see the flow pattern is correct.

[3Razors]

Not true. If you had a head in your hand you would see the flow pattern is correct.

Sorry wrong answer thanks for playing! The coolant flows from the bottom to the top then down again. Coolant enters the back of the cylinder then the head gasket routes it to the front of the exhaust (hottest part) then it flows up from there to the head followed to the radiators and the cycle continues. When you remove the head gasket and use o-rings now guess what? You've changed the flow pattern/speed of the coolant to go wherever it wants and will not cool as efficiently.

[TRITecate350]

So 3Razors....you totally crapping on my product and you dont have the first clue. Why are you telling everyone that my head doesnt work when you have never tried one or held it in your hand. It is people like you that really piss me off, running your mouth with out any proof or knowledge on the matter. My o-ring sealed head does a better job directing coolant and makes more power than kawasaki's design. Let me run you through the process, coolant flows into cylinder through the back of the cylinder. kawasaki has 2 holes in the gasket that allows coolant to short curcuit into the outlet of the head, my head has no port in this location, which flows the coolant around the bore of the cylinder. The 4 coolant passages in my head on the left and right (2 on each side) appear to be wide open, but if you had it in your hand you would notice the actual flowing port is about %50 larger than the holes in your stock gasket(depending of brand). Which after doing flow tests I found to be optimal. Next your exhaust side coolant passages in the front of your cylinder are the largest which flows the most coolant out of the cylinder into the head. Then the coolant is flowed into the dome and then is swirled around the steps in the dome to the very center of the head where it exits. This is not even where it ends, These holes we machined in the head are designed to direct coolant, touch more surface area, and maintain a faster flow around hot areas using restrictions and coolant passage shapes.
Not to mention the domes are designed to make more horsepower, reduce detonation, and raise compression.
You guys want to trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro about no one making anything cool for tecates.......
For 12 years I have sold tecate-3 and 4 billet heads and bigbore kits, I have sold about 60 330 tecate-4 kits, I have sold about 35 tec-3 big bore kits, about 20 old gen t-3 billet heads, 100 t-4 billet heads.....12 years.
Thanks to Moshman, garageboy34, and all the triz customers, I have sold 75 billet heads, 40-50 big bore kits, countless other goodies for the triz....in 3 years. Cant get tecate people to buy stuff......... Sold 5 new style billet heads, gave a few away for testing.
Tecatekid's beautifull bike sports a old gen Sprock Racing Billet head.
I dont want to come off as complaining, just I feel tecate people do their own thing, and triz people will support those who support them. As far as long waits and screwing up orders....that is what we do, that is who I am.. I cant deny it.
Tell you what 3razors, post your address and I will ship you out your very own Sprock Racing o-ring sealed billet head(might be slow shipping). Then you can get in here and tell the world what a piece of crap it is. At least then you will know what your talking about.

[TRITecate350]

If anyone wants a billet head or anything I offer, I can be reached at 573-721-2251, or 573-581-1382. I will have some on ebay soon, I will be able to ship out asap, if u have problems with trusting me on shipping out in a timely fashion, I would be happy to ship to you cod. For the record I didnt know that we were dropping the ball with the customers who have been waiting on this thread. I am sorry for your inconviences, I am working on being more service oriented.

[3Razors]

I have clue alright and that is that you are a more a machinist and not an engineer. That is one of my biggest pet peeves is people making aftermarket products and always claiming them better than stock. I never said that your head doesn't work. There is a big difference on what works and what is the best. Your design will work ok for general riding. But take that motor to a TT track or extended duning screaming 11K rpm and put a infared temp gun you would see that the temp would be higher with your design compared to stock. You explanation of some the ports being blocked off does not add up, especially the very back the of the head which apears solid except a small portion of the dome for coolant to be, at that rate the back of the head would see severve temp. changes compared to the surrounding area. I see openings with slits in both the rear and side ports for coolant to run through which you say is 50% bigger that I consider not good, as the coolant comes up from the bottom you've now taken away the restriction with your design which is needed to help push the flow from the impeller to the exhaust. That is the key is moving the coolant fast to the exhaust. I can see for a fact the flow area around the mounting studs is solid and not passaged like stock for the coolant to travel. With your design basically the dome area is the only spot that gets full cooling whereas the oem gets total flow throughout the head. I was in the factory gp pits once with Honda racing and we talked about this very subject and why this is important for the same reason that they run stock heads, no coolhead stuff.

Now lets look at the way the oem one works. Heres a stock head/gasket side by side and placed on top of eachother. Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, ect all use a similar design. Don't you think that if all they had to do for more efficient cooling they would have designed the gasket with openings built right in and called it a day?! The oems have 100's of the smartest engineers in the world that do countless hours of flow and heat testing these motors that know what works the best.

[cr480r]

I've always wondered if there was any power to be gained from a cool head.. seems to me that if an oem head and a cool head both had the same dome cut in them the power should be the same if cooling was sufficient on both.. please discuss

[sixpackrt]

Cant get tecate people to buy stuff

Where is the 84 85 cool heads? we are still waiting.

[Mosh]

I have clue alright and that is that you are a more a machinist and not an engineer. That is one of my biggest pet peeves is people making aftermarket products and always claiming them better than stock. I never said that your head doesn't work. There is a big difference on what works and what is the best. Your design will work ok for general riding. But take that motor to a TT track or extended duning screaming 11K rpm and put a infared temp gun you would see that the temp would be higher with your design compared to stock.
This statement does not add up for many reasons.
1st of all..
If that is the case, why were all the winning pro class 80's era 2 strokes running coolheads on MX,TT and Baja Races?
I am sure those teams and riders put those machines way harder through the ringer than any average internet rider or weekend dune warrior ever did, and they held up.

As far as screaming through the dunes..There is no way that dune riding at high RPM's puts more load on a machine than MX or trails. I am not getting into a riding debate of terrain complexity or what is better or more challenging. What I am sayin is in anything other than dunes, the machine is working harder at lower RPM and torque ranges, with LESS airflow over the radiators and engine. And I have ridden in all the the different types.

There is more mechanical load put on a engine at 3-7 grand constantly accelerating from low to hi speeds and vice versa, that you get with MX racing or harescrambles or fast trails.
As per say where in dunes, once you get the machine up to speed, you maintain a more constant load which will be considerably less due to the fact that the machine has rolling perpetual motion that the engine does not have to work as hard to maintain as per say, the constant down into the corners slam on the brakes at 15 MPH, then accelerate back up to straight away speeds turn after turn, lap after lap for sometimes up 30 minutes that is associated with other types of riding.Also in the dunes, you get more consistent airflow over the radiators.
Form the way you stated that observation above, Tim Farr, Rath, Sundahl and other pro racers on Banshees and 2 strokes would have been blown up after 10 laps on a TT track if they were running a coolhead, or would not have made it more than 50 miles in a Baja race.
And the last I saw, out in the dunes, probably 60 percent of 2 stroke duners are running coolheads.


You explanation of some the ports being blocked off does not add up, especially the very back the of the head which apears solid except a small portion of the dome for coolant to be, at that rate the back of the head would see severve temp. changes compared to the surrounding area. I see openings with slits in both the rear and side ports for coolant to run through which you say is 50% bigger that I consider not good, as the coolant comes up from the bottom you've now taken away the restriction with your design which is needed to help push the flow from the impeller to the exhaust. That is the key is moving the coolant fast to the exhaust. I can see for a fact the flow area around the mounting studs is solid and not passaged like stock for the coolant to travel. With your design basically the dome area is the only spot that gets full cooling whereas the oem gets total flow throughout the head. I was in the factory gp pits once with Honda racing and we talked about this very subject and why this is important for the same reason that they run stock heads, no coolhead stuff.
I agree with the theory / science here about using restrictions to boost coolant speed / flow and direction. You do want the coolant to hang in certain areas just long enough to absorb heat and then take it away from the area.
But a well known rebuttle to that is EVERY performance based machine and builder and deisgner, wants MORE coolant capacity as far as the amount of coolant they can get in an engine. So a coolhead offers that.
I can understand you concern about exhaust temps as well. But any excess temp would be minimal, and quite honestly exhaust temp is a direct relation to jetting and combustion burn time.
If you keep those correct, the exhaust runs at optimal temperature. It is not the cooling systems sole job to cool off a overheated exhaust from improper timing and jetting. I always laugh when I see a 2 stroke owner saying his machine overheats.."I have to get a coolhead to fix it!" The real techs know that it is a band-aid for an improper tuned machine or mechanical malfunction.

One more thing you are not considering here.
These coolheads for whatever model, do a few more important things.
1st of all, they boost the compression with changeable domes. The only way to do that with a stock head is to shave it. When you shave a head, you loose coolant capacity in the head. You may argue it is minimal, but it is still less coolant in the system. The interchangeable domes allow you to gain that compression, but you still retain more coolant capacity.
Any one who knows even the basics of engines understands with more compression comes more heat. So you want more coolant at the top of the dome which is what the coolhead offers.
2nd of all, these heads allow for larger domes to accomidate bigbore pistons, something that is much more complicated to achieve by machining a stock head, then finding a special gasket to seal that larger dome area.

All I am saying is that is IF coolheads didnt work, and were merely a gimmick, then why do all the top engine builders run them? ESR, Trinity, Pro X, Baldwin, Sparks?
And why did they have susch a winning track record? I am not sticking up for Sprock soley, but according to your Honda Friends, no coolheads offer any benefit..:crazy:

Sprock...
Sometimes I dont know why you put up with the BS anymore..
I mean seriously, I know what the gains are for you (If you want to call them gains)..More like losses.
I just dont see why you conintue to allow yourself to be kicked in the nuts repeatedly.
I gotta say if I was you, I would quit giving treats to the dog that bites your hand everytime they take a bite.

[Billy Golightly]

I've always wondered if there was any power to be gained from a cool head.. seems to me that if an oem head and a cool head both had the same dome cut in them the power should be the same if cooling was sufficient on both.. please discuss

Heres the thing. In order for a head dome to be most efficient, the squish band (The outer ring) of the dome needs to be matched as closely as possible to the radius of the piston so that they are at the same angles. If one is angled more than other the expansion from ignition will not travel as freely as it can to the top of the head (where the downforce on the piston is put) and it can also potentially trap exhaust gases around the outside edge of the piston and head which is extremely dangerous for detonation. This was explained to me one time and it took me forever to really grasp and understand it. I'm going to attach a couple diagrams to help you guys out that would like to learn and understand this more. I'm not a CAD guy and my drawings arent perfect but it should be enough to give you a general idea.


111039
Picture #1, a generally good design that has a near equal amount of distance between the top of the piston and the bottom of the head the entire width of the squish band. In practice you would want a more generous radius where it transitions to the middle but thats kind of hard to draw.


111038
Picture #2. The angle of the squish band on the head has changed, and now it is tighter towards the middle. As the motor is turning it pushes the hot gases around, the outside is forced to center because of the upward radius on the piston and the dome of the head they will be forced to center. The idea of a squish band is to concentrate as much of those gasses towards the spark plug as possible and because without it unlit fuel can linger on the outside edges and actually ignite from the heat built up in the head. That is pre-ignition and it wrecks everything in a motor and builds up heat like crazy. So the choke point that is illustrated builds up heat from the extra time it takes for the hot gasses to get around it. That makes a point for pre-ignition possible.

If your squish clearance is .040 distance between the bottom of the head and the top of the piston, a change in .010 of height at the inside edge of the squish can make a huge difference on how its bottle necked. And in this entire discussion and the illustrations, I'm keeping the radius of the piston dome static. Imagine what kind of bad combination's you can get when you've got an OEM head that is designed for an OEM piston, and then you put a Wiseco, ProX, Wossner, Vertex, whatever in it with a different radius on the head of the piston!

You guys remember when Raffa was building his 490, he was talking about how there was a big problem with most of them on over-heating that needed the head machined to fix it? Surprise, OEM head domed for an OEM piston, people put Wiseco's in them with a different radius and it makes a pinch point in the squish band that consequently makes a pre-detonation point, that consequently makes the whole motor overheat and knock around like hell until something goes wrong.

What does all this have to do with waterflow in a cool head? The fact that if the dome isn't congruent with the radius of the piston no amount of waterflow in the world will keep it from overheating. I strongly feel like this is a problem with probably 90% of the guys that have 250Rs, Tri-Zs, Tecates, and other machines that habitually over-heat.

The advantage of the cool-head is that you can have multiple domes for multiple uses. Yes, you can re-dome and resurface an OEM head but everytime you "deck it" you make the spark plug even closer to the piston and that brings heat further into the equation as well. Decking an OEM head without changing the dome makes the outside edges of the squish band closer to the top of the piston and can make pre-ignition points even without a bottle neck. With a cool-head you can change out the domes for different volumes, different radiuses, the spark plug remains in a static distance from the piston, and when thought is put into it you get better water flow and coverage of the dome. I don't know hardly ANYTHING about Tecate heads or how their water pumping systems work. I feel like Sprock is a competent engine builder and knows his stuff. Him and I have had some conversations and I wouldn't say that if I didn't honestly think it. I think the main intention of this post was to explain in my opinion, the many faucets and variables in a head design and ways that a "cool head" can be better than an OEM one.

[ATC-Eric]

My moneys on 3 razors , i think coolheads look cool and it`s nice to change domes and it`s nice that you guys make money on them but it`s smoke & mirrors !!!

Sigh, once again another person who has not so much as held a Sprock billet head, and is knocking it down. The way the passages are set up on the T3-T4 head mimic the stock flow pattern.

Deleted my post, just gonna let Corey get in here and explain it a little better. You nimrods really think Corey didnt put any thought into making these? You think we just decided one day we wanted something shiny on our machines? How many machines have you ever heard of melting down, or blowing up due to a cool head?

If you dont want a cool head, then dont buy one. Plan and simple! Show me one person with a Sprock racing Cool head that caused engine failure, and Ill show you a freaking liar.

[ATC-Eric]

$375? For what? Where you getting your information, 3razors? Lmao

[atc400x]

here we go again more people making accusations and very false uninformed claims. what are we doing running for president? being certified and well trained mechanic and being a person who has one of these in my hand at present im gonna give you some info. if you looked at them you would see the cooling ports in the rear are smaller and the fronts are bigger up inside the head thus more flow over the exhaust port which seems to be the entire complaint. you can not tell this from hearsay or pictures! it is proven that more compression is linked to more hp. changeable domes give you more options so yes they can give substantial hp gains. you see corey is a good spirited person who does not like to brag and has made the tecate his personal project.he would not tell you this but i will kent wilson tested one of these heads before it went for sale. his bike with a big bore calender would get warm after a few laps and the hp would fade after sprock came up with the cool head this problem went away just some r and d for you. also i went to a stihl training school in Virgina the question was asked '' can we change the angle of the tooth to get more performance'' the answer was this we have a lot of people who all they do is test saw chain but what we have to consider is performance and longevity as well as cost to produce. in other words the stock head my not have been perfect but more economical. if you take pipes for example the stock pipe is different from after market but after market works better hence most people running one. if you do not wish to improve your ride then with all power leave it stock because in your belief tho oem made it as good as it ever could be and no one is going to change your mind. i have the up most respect for people who are making an attempt to make awesome parts for our vintage machines as last time i checked more and more of the parts for them are going NLA. with out these people who put their wallet on the line we DO NOT HAVE 3 WHEELERS TO RIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my hat is off to all these guys sprock included. i can not understand why people would blindly bash any of these products with out research. why would any one port a cylinder and change a'' perfect'' critical cooling function of the engine? why would they change type of oil or mix ratio? because the manufacture did not have modern day technology. these things were built in the 80s sorry guys this is not the 80s any more. also the whole head was changed so maybe the coolant can flow different. in close i got to say dont knock it till you try it. Sprock offers a 100% performance guarantee. If you dont like it, send it back. that simple!!!!!

[3Razors]

It getting interesting finally now. A properly machined stock head will have the same degree of performance a coolhead dome can deliver within reason of the parameter the cc motor it was designed for. A "True" motor builder doesn't need to keep changing out domes per setup. Again on the issue of heat..What works for one builder may not be optimum for another. Just because an engine with a cool head doesn't "blow up" doesn't mean its running/cooling at its optimum potential. It could be running hotter and still handle it BUT the engine over time will not have as much longevity and will not deliver as much hp per run because of the added heat. Now on the statement about more volume in the head, what good is more coolant volume in the dome area of the coolhead if it is not circulating as efficiently?!! Nothing..All you have then is a bigger pot of boiling water on the dome. Sanddunes put tremendous stress on an engine more than any other terrrain. Go and try and walk up a giant dune, then try and walk up a hardpack hill. Big difference, the poor bike not only has to push itself up the hill buy also a rider. Yes there are people in the sanddunes with coolheads that don't have any trouble, many have aftermarket cylinders that came with that head, others just don't care because their neighbor told them to get one. Many years ago all the marketers and machinists all got together and figured out the general public like shiny billet things and all kinds of nonsense parts came out of the holes. The big push for coolheads was all about money that could be made, many shops love to push them. (Harry Mcdermont) Trinity, Curtis Sparks, Tim Farr, ect. again these guys are riders not true motor builders in the elite top 2 stroke builders of the world. I've camped in the same campsites at the dunes with Loren Duncan, Harry Mcdermonth and those guys know a little bit about motor building but nothing to the level that is considered elite. But hey Dirtwheels will tell u otherwise. lol Did you ever once see Team Honda atc or mx team with a coolhead? How bout Team Kawasaki? Yamaha? Was there a coolhead on Jeremy Mcgraths bike, Carmichael? How bout any works bike? Factory roadracing? Nada And comparing a aircooled YZ490 head in this discussion is pointless because that head came from the factory flawed to begin with many quirks.



Now yes a machined alum head can be made to work properly with enough time and machining but to do it right is very hard especially to be able to make a profit. I don't see it in the Sprock head. He can do his thing and i'll do mine.

[atc400x]

also would like to point out that a cool head has several different machined plains on the top in the water jacket thus more cooling capabilities. hate to tell you if it didn't work people would not use them. would you please address the issue of your knowledge on this. do you have one? have you ran one? i have ran one seen with my own eyes with a heat gun on the cyl and head no heat problems. do you really think every one is out to screw you to make money? do you think no research was done on these?

[TRITecate350]

Now yes a machined alum head can be made to work properly with enough time and machining but to do it right is very hard especially to be able to make a profit. I don't see it in the Sprock head. He can do his thing and i'll do mine.
Maybe you should do your thing and stay out of my business. Keep your mouth shut if all you are going to do is trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro on someones parts.

A properly machined stock head will have the same degree of performance a coolhead dome can deliver within reason of the parameter the cc motor it was designed for. A "True" motor builder doesn't need to keep changing out domes per setup.

You are right, stock head can be machined, welded what ever it takes to make as much performance as my billet head. Most head mods are 100-150. My complete head kit sells for $175. A True engine builder may not need to switch domes, but many of my customers want to be able to use the billet head if they decide to change ccs, or if they have engine failure they can replace a $35 dome, not the whole head. Some customers race during the season with expensive race fuel, and in the winter, they sand dune with a pump gas dome. Thus saving them tons of money.


Now on the statement about more volume in the head, what good is more coolant volume in the dome area of the coolhead if it is not circulating as efficiently?!! Nothing..All you have then is a bigger pot of boiling water on the dome.

True that..... BUT, my head circulates the water better than stock, also provides more volume for transfering heat.

Sanddunes put tremendous stress on an engine more than any other terrrain. Go and try and walk up a giant dune, then try and walk up a hardpack hill. Big difference, the poor bike not only has to push itself up the hill buy also a rider. Yes there are people in the sanddunes with coolheads that don't have any trouble, many have aftermarket cylinders that came with that head, others just don't care because their neighbor told them to get one
Mud puts more stress on an engine than sand. Try walking up a mud hill..... Agressive trail riding can be harder on an engine than sand. Dusty trails, no breeze, tractoring along at low speeds with that cooler of beer on the back.

The big push for coolheads was all about money that could be made, many shops love to push them. (Harry Mcdermont) Trinity, Curtis Sparks, Tim Farr, ect. again these guys are riders not true motor builders in the elite top 2 stroke builders of the world. I've camped in the same campsites at the dunes with Loren Duncan, Harry Mcdermonth and those guys know a little bit about motor building but nothing to the level that is considered elite.
How dare you say this about Harry Mcdermont and Curtis Sparks. These guys have 30+ years building engines and developing products. Not to mention the races they win. Who do you concider elite? People like Jennings, blair and bell?

lol Did you ever once see Team Honda atc or mx team with a coolhead? How bout Team Kawasaki? Yamaha? Was there a coolhead on Jeremy Mcgraths bike, Carmichael? How bout any works bike? Factory roadracing? Nada

You are right, coolheads werent invented yet..... :( As for Mcgrath and the roadracing people etc, no "factory" team is going to install someone elses head, they modify their heads, which is nothing wrong with that, they can also modify gaskets, water jackets or what ever. Doesnt matter, most of my customers dont want to spend money modifying their heads when they can invest in a better design that will aid in cooling and make more power. Mcgrath probably doesnt have cooling issues and has the head machined to their specs, so no need for the head.

You explanation of some the ports being blocked off does not add up, especially the very back the of the head which apears solid except a small portion of the dome for coolant to be, at that rate the back of the head would see severve temp. changes compared to the surrounding area.
Yep the back of the head has no port, stoping any short circuiting of coolant. The combustion chamber is completely surrounded by water and the rear solid portion stay nice and cool. Jason, I have done my homework on this design, I have reviewed all angles, and have developed a superior product to oem.

I see openings with slits in both the rear and side ports for coolant to run through which you say is 50% bigger that I consider not good, as the coolant comes up from the bottom you've now taken away the restriction with your design which is needed to help push the flow from the impeller to the exhaust. That is the key is moving the coolant fast to the exhaust. I can see for a fact the flow area around the mounting studs is solid and not passaged like stock for the coolant to travel. With your design basically the dome area is the only spot that gets full cooling whereas the oem gets total flow throughout the head

%50 bigger holes, you dont think it would be better, fine that is your opinion. The exhaust isnt the most important thing here, taking heat out of the combustion area and cylinder walls is more important. You got me....the studs are not cooled on my design... I hope they dont melt.... Listen, I have done the testing, like crum said, I have a local t-4 racer that tested the design and remarks the power doesnt fade out like before. I have personally tested this design, I wont give out any numbers, but the coolant temp coming out of the head was hotter with my design than with the stock head under the same testing procedure. Why was the coolant hotter? Because the billet head was absorbing the heat from the engine....now the radiator has to do its job. We also check temps going in the head for a base reasons too. So, seat of your pants, power doesnt fade like it use to. Inline gauges back it up. You can infared heat gun all you want, not gonna give you the info you need.

I was in the factory gp pits once with Honda racing and we talked about this very subject and why this is important for the same reason that they run stock heads, no coolhead stuff.

Now lets look at the way the oem one works. Heres a stock head/gasket side by side and placed on top of eachother. Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, ect all use a similar design. Don't you think that if all they had to do for more efficient cooling they would have designed the gasket with openings built right in and called it a day?! The oems have 100's of the smartest engineers in the world that do countless hours of flow and heat testing these motors that know what works the best.

Your honda gp team probably didnt know what a cool head even was. To the factories, they just need proper head dome design, they dont have issues with heat compared to other sports. The oems do not have the smartest engineers in the world, even if they were the smartest, the oem is not going to allow them to make a superior part. Its all about how much money to manufacture, is it functional, and lets put an idiot factor in the design so people wont have problems. I have a couple friends in the industry that use to develope parts for the oems, they now work as parts reps, and in the private industry. I have asked them many times why something was built the way it was, either copyright problems, if it worked they went with it, maybe not the best product, just cheap, and it worked. Take the triz for example, why is the fuel tank in the back not where it should be? I was told Honda had the copyright to tank location, so Kawasaki manufacture or assembled here in the us to get around that. Now before you want to tear that one apart I am just the messenger and dont know if its true. That is what the ex Engineer said.

You know last year when you were at the invasion I really regretted not talking with you more and hanging out. Course before I knew it you were gone but the impression I got from Kasey was you were a courtious, and well manored young man. I am really disappointed that you didnt turn out to be more of a stand up guy. Now I have no regrets.

If you hate billet heads, start it in another post, dont bring my products into it, nor post it in a thread I am trying to sell in. I have enough problems with my service and meeting deadlines, I dont need your opinions based on nothing steering people away from a good thing. I dont make hardly any money with this stuff, my intentions are not self serving, I am honestly trying to make the tecate and other machines better and more reliable. I have more testing and investment in these heads than any other product I have sold. NO SHORT CUTS! That was what I wanted for this head. I spent over a $1000 on custom orings to go around the exhaust area and around the head. Special molded, then I spent tons of money on special bits and tooling to get in places where a cnc normally dont go to make this perfect. My heart is in the design, and I am not going to put up with anyone talking crap on it without at least owning one or trying one. If you dont like any of my performance products I will refund your money even if it is used.

[ATC-Eric]

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n73/ericbs200/thread%20bombs/vandammebandta4.gif

[3Razors]

"I have personally tested this design, I wont give out any numbers, but the coolant temp coming out of the head was hotter with my design than with the stock head under the same testing procedure. Why was the coolant hotter? Because the billet head was absorbing the heat from the engine....now the radiator has to do its job. We also check temps going in the head for a base reasons too."....Sprock

Out of all that I stopped right there and want to question you on that. Did you test the volumetric flow out of your billet head compared to the stock one? Is it flowing faster or slower...You would need to use a closed system test such as a flow meter or annubar. An open system test would be void because to be accurate the system has to be closed so you don't get a false reading, and it also needs to be under load. Your results contradict themselves if the aluminum is absorbing the heat and your saying it has more coolant volume/circulates better then the coolant coming out of the head should be cooler.

Having higher temp coolant come out of the head and into the radiators now you have introduced a whole new problem by making the radiators work harder to it cool it down which can be done only by getting more air but by the sounds of things out there it is most slow trail riding or full throttle runs in the mud so the radiators are clogged anyway so now the returning coolant to the motor is even hotter and not as efficient than the target temp Kawasaki wanted.

I also have a theory that with your coolant pockets in the side of the head it would lead to void pockets which could lead to cavitation.

Changing domes is silly. If you build a motor that truly utilizes/need race gas, then that would be a complete waste to change out the dome in the winter to pump. It would run like soggy arse.

We can go back and forth all day like dueling banjo's on why the factory racers run what. I have personaly seen Ty Davis Baja 1000 winning KX500 motor apart and it had nothing more than a stock head with the factory optional 1mm gasket. I have a former Kawasaki team mechanic as a friend that states the heads on the team factory mx bikes are the same ones that come to the general pubic with only the dome modified for race gas. I know the factory teams wouldn't put some other companies alum head on there, but they could grab a block of alum and make there own if they wanted to, but they already put the homework in the original design with the best one there in the first place so no need.

[TRITecate350]

Let me make it alittle clearer, when I said my head absorbed the heat, I meant the head was doing a better job of absorbing the heat of the engine into the water flow. Thus the water becoming hotter.

I did test the flow out of the head, not using any method you have sugested. It doesnt matter if it flowed more coolant than stock, then you would argue it didnt have time to absorb the heat. If it flowed slower you would argue that it was a big boiling pot. No way to win an arguement with you, either way I went, in your eyes the opposite is the correct way kawasaki developed it. I didnt design the flow to be faster coming out of the head, I focused a number of things, on the heat exchange, where is heat generated, what is the best way to absorb it into the coolant etc.....

Changing domes is silly. If you build a motor that truly utilizes/need race gas, then that would be a complete waste to change out the dome in the winter to pump. It would run like soggy arse.

The majority of my customers are not building a motor, they just want more performance, added cooling, good looks and availablity of changing compressions. So they buy a head and are happy with the added hp and aid in cooling. In most cases, changing the dome from race to pump gas, isnt going to lower your horsepower to the point you would be unhappy with the performance.

We can go back and forth all day like dueling banjo's on why the factory racers run what. I have personaly seen Ty Davis Baja 1000 winning KX500 motor apart and it had nothing more than a stock head with the factory optional 1mm gasket. I have a former Kawasaki team mechanic as a friend that states the heads on the team factory mx bikes are the same ones that come to the general pubic with only the dome modified for race gas. I know the factory teams wouldn't put some other companies alum head on there, but they could grab a block of alum and make there own if they wanted to, but they already put the homework in the original design with the best one there in the first place so no need

If they machined the head for race fuel and more hp, and are not overheating their engines...keeping them at the temp that they think is the best. That is fine, I dont care about the factory teams. I didnt build my head for the factory teams. I built it for the average rider or racer who wants to have more power and added cooling to their bike. There is no agrument here, my customers report more power and they feel it cools their engines better. When you can pull a wheelie in a gear higher than before the head, that is not smoking mirrors. That is real world proof. When your bike runs the whole race without the power fading as it did before, that is real world proof. You can theorize all you want about how my heads dont work as well as stock, but the proof is the customer testimonies. Unfortunatly I only have sold 5 or so of this style head, but as people buy them hopefully they will give us some feedback.

As far as the 84-85 tec-3s, I dont have them finished because I am not completely satified with the head yet, I know what needs to be changed but have not finished them yet. Everytime I build something everybody is wanting one or "waiting" for one. When they are done, just like this head, I have sold 5..... If I can get a measley 5 preorders of $50, I will have them done within a month. Hows that for a challenge. If they are not done in a month from when I recieve all 5, then you can have them for free. If you feel I have taken your money and ran you have 45 days to take your money back though paypal.

[dcreel]

Corey, Can we get a paypal address for the 84-85 Tecate cool heads? :naughty:

[TRITecate350]

Send it to coreysprock@gmail.com

[3Razors]

Sprock, I understand your argument about a having more alum and more coolant volume for the head to act as dissipater of heat. But there are too many variables there. My guess that there is bad flow pattern if the coolant is hotter. The only way of for sure knowing if your setup is cooling the cylinder/head better than stock is would be to hook up thermal couples attached to various quadrants of the head and cylinder and also entrance and outlet temp readers followed by having the engine under load on a dynometer under various loads/rpm followed with same procedure tested outdoors on track/trail and having those results compared to the stock setup. Kawasaki does those tests do you? Having hotter coolant coming out the head is a big problem for the rest of the cooling system to try and take care of. I still don't agree with the solid parts of alum on the back and stud areas, with that setup you will have hot spots that can possible warp cylinder/head with uneven temps.

Also another couple questions...What is the actual liquid volume the water area hold in your head? Stock is rougly 130cc including elbow fitting.

Does your head have a second o-ring for the dome?

[Billy Golightly]

... Nada And comparing a aircooled YZ490 head in this discussion is pointless because that head came from the factory flawed to begin with many quirks.



Playing devils advocate here, I thought the OEM's made far superior stuff? :)

[3Razors]

Playing devils advocate here, I thought the OEM's made far superior stuff? :)

You got me on that one. That motor is a very special case, that I don't think yamaha figured out the right head design until maybe the wr500. Just too many quirks on a big bore aircooled motor. Problem they had with that type of motor in order run hard to compete with the other makes it had to run race gas, but you can't release a race gas only bike to the public. Set it up for pump gas and be reliable, won't make much power. Yamaha was screwed either way. I'll say the oem's do the job right the majority of time though.

[atc400x]

''I also have a theory that with your coolant pockets in the side of the head it would lead to void pockets which could lead to cavitation.''
''My guess that there is bad flow pattern if the coolant is hotter. ''
''The only way of for sure knowing if your setup is cooling the cylinder/head better than stock''

'' Now yes a machined alum head can be made to work properly with enough time and machining but to do it right is very hard especially to be able to make a profit. I don't see it in the Sprock head. He can do his thing and i'll do mine.'' POSTED BY 3 RAZORS look at this lot of theory no proof? would you please address the issue of your knowledge on this. do you have one? have you ran one? still have questions what about answers?

[3Razors]

''I also have a theory that with your coolant pockets in the side of the head it would lead to void pockets which could lead to cavitation.''
''My guess that there is bad flow pattern if the coolant is hotter. ''
''The only way of for sure knowing if your setup is cooling the cylinder/head better than stock''

'' Now yes a machined alum head can be made to work properly with enough time and machining but to do it right is very hard especially to be able to make a profit. I don't see it in the Sprock head. He can do his thing and i'll do mine.'' POSTED BY 3 RAZORS look at this lot of theory no proof? would you please address the issue of your knowledge on this. do you have one? have you ran one? still have questions what about answers?

I'm no dummy. If you need to know I have an engineering background, been in the atv industry 20 years, a mechanic for 15 of them, and talked with very knowledgeable people about this subject in the past. I don't need to own one. I can see by the design it's flawed. The theories I posted are valid science not mine. I'm not selling the head he is. I'm saying he needs to do those test before he says it a better product than the stock one, because he doesn't believe me. Head cooling is a big issue and not to gamble on.

According to him his head has MORE liquid volume, BETTER circulation, and MORE alum to absord the heat which should also be dissipating the heat too in the air making the coolant at least same temp as stock, however after all that the coolant coming out of the head is hotter? Doesn't know the volumetric flow. Doesn't add up..That tells me that it could either be not enough passage ways for the area volume running through it to cool, not enough restriction to move it where it needs to go, or too much restriction.

[atc400x]

have talked with several people who know you well all tell me you are very smart and do know a lot. just can not understand why any one who has not used a product or had a problem with said product would bash it openly and try to ruin someone and their product. THIS IS NOT RIGHT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!! thought you were cool last year in CA BUT THIS IS NOT COOL AT ALL. THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN A PRIVATE MANNER. there is no reason this should have ever happend. no cool points

[fabiodriven]

have talked with several people who know you well all tell me you are very smart and do know a lot. just can not understand why any one who has not used a product or had a problem with said product would bash it openly and try to ruin someone and their product. THIS IS NOT RIGHT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!! thought you were cool last year in CA BUT THIS IS NOT COOL AT ALL. THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN A PRIVATE MANNER. there is no reason this should have ever happend. no cool points

I am on neither side here and I am enjoying this debate. IMO, there is nothing wrong with 3Razors questioning the R&D of a new product. If somebody were to make something and just throw it out there with a "Good enough" attitude, that's just not good enough. These things have to be R&D-ed and made sure that they perform as well as, if not better than stock. Why should he not question it? If it is in fact a good, proven product, then prove it. There are a lot of valid points here being made by both sides of the argument. Let them sort it out and we'll see what we have when the dust settles. Why is that so bad?

[TRITecate350]

1st off, I feel like I am having to repeat myself way too much. Razors, you didnt even know the head had restrictions that controlled the flow of coolant like the head gasket of the stock setup. You said it was a wide open design that let the water go where ever. After you were proven wrong, you then attack another aspect of the design. Once I explain that aspect, then you attack another. NO ONE CAN WIN AN ARGUEMENT WITH YOU. I can ussually win debates using common sense.

I have had people test the head, in there opinion the head worked better than stock. Power lasted longer when thrashing on it. Here is all the proof I need. If the customer is happy and can tell the difference what more do you want.
Fabio, Razors isnt questioning the r and d, he is telling my potential customers that the billet head doesnt work, it is smoking mirrors, and dont waste your money on them. Then when I point out the benefits of the head, he tells everyone that Kawasaki was perfect in their design and no matter what is done, it cant be better. Note: Razors is baseing his oppinion on pictures, he has never tryed one, nor held it in his hand.
The reason the coolant is hotter coming out of the head under the same sitiuation is because the head is transfering the heat out of the engine and into the coolant better than stock.

[Mosh]

The big push for coolheads was all about money that could be made, many shops love to push them. (Harry Mcdermont) Trinity, Curtis Sparks, Tim Farr, ect. again these guys are riders not true motor builders in the elite top 2 stroke builders of the world. I've camped in the same campsites at the dunes with Loren Duncan, Harry Mcdermonth and those guys know a little bit about motor building but nothing to the level that is considered elite. But hey Dirtwheels will tell u otherwise. lol
I have read some pretty assnine and ignorant stuff posted on message boards in my time, but this statement takes the cake.
I cant believe you would say that with the track record these guys have obtained in ATV world. No one ever clamied Tim Farr to be a builder, but apparently you would probably group Baldwin Racing into that group of 2 stroke builders that know a "Little bit"...:crazy::lol::lol:
Dang dude..:crazy:I personally rode and seen a 89 Trinity Ported 265 R that was laying down major built machines in 300ft passes..Guess what? It ran a coolhead too.:p
I noticed you left ESR out of that statement..Probably cuz you know they know whats up, and guess what..They make and sell coolheads too.:drool: But maybe they know more than a little bit.
Everyone has heard of them, But I dont recall 3 Rasors Racing bringing home multiple championships over the last 20 years.:lol:

I see some of you westcoaster always boasting about how it is done better out there, and you have the best things. It must be true. I tell you what. Send some of that west coast grown dope out here...Cuz I know we dont have anything that good that you are smoking, to make that statement.
Thanks for the laugh.

[atc400x]

fabio, with all due respect it is wrong to bash a guy who trying to make a'' better'' product and help people out for no reason and with no proof. it would be like you selling a good tri-z and some one pipes in and says this guy dosent know what he is talking about because some one told me tri-z are flawed and all hype and he olny wants your money. i understand his concerns and yes i think people should question things but does need to be in private. seems he is going way out of his way to make a big stink over nothing. it is good it has been tested has been sold and no complaints realy has no bad side except they are not free. i would be completly diffrent on this if he had one with problems. let me put it like this when it comes time to vote and you dont go vote then you have no right to whine about the country's problems it is the same thing here. why not just attack every new product till people dont want to build them any more? you see it is people like this that i cant understand what is to gain for him? why run down a product and attack someone on a whim. this is how false facts get out on a proudct and do you know how hard it is to set thins straight once they get screwed up? mr razors what do you want to not have cool heads on the market? do you not want any after market parts at your arms reach? is it you just decided you dont like sprock one morning and wanted to just beat him up? he has given you proof but you will not just say hey they might just work or wow i might have been mistaken thanks for the proof corey. im telling you if you had a good reason like maybe a bad head i would have the up most respect in your complaints but this is not the case now is it. i cant see the big problem you have with it or corey as he does back his products up 100% so if people do buy it and dont like it there not stuck with it. as you can see by this he is not doing this to screw people out of there money. he has spent a lot of time on things to make them right. so they are not the way you would make them so what? why the big fuss heck just make some your way then yours can be how ever you want it. man i do just want to get along and ride some bikes and have a lot of fun that is what its all about any way but i do belive this is wrong. it is parts like this that keep these old bikes around you wont be able to buy oem parts for ever you know. i say we all just get along.hell man we drive along way to come hang out with you guys we dont need hurt feelings and conflict over non important issues. mosh you the man!

[3Razors]

have talked with several people who know you well all tell me you are very smart and do know a lot. just can not understand why any one who has not used a product or had a problem with said product would bash it openly and try to ruin someone and their product. THIS IS NOT RIGHT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!! thought you were cool last year in CA BUT THIS IS NOT COOL AT ALL. THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN A PRIVATE MANNER. there is no reason this should have ever happend. no cool points

I saw the post date and figured the heads werent even being made for whatever reason so I said something. Most the stuff I read on here I don't say anything because I figure they don't understand what I'm saying, then they dissagree, then I have to spend time post after post of my time explaining. Then they do the opposite anyway, so there was no point to it all. I'm a quite guy in general but once in awhile I can't handle it anymore snap and get sucked in. It happens every day to me on customers bikes but its different in person. I always will tell my findings with a idea or product be it good, bad, or ugly. I like Cory, I think he is a genuine good hearted guy, and a great machinist, but I am also very passionate about bikes/motors like seeing them perform the best. I probably could have handled it better on the net, just one of those things.

"The reason the coolant is hotter coming out of the head under the same sitiuation is because the head is transfering the heat out of the engine and into the coolant better than stock" Sprock quote. There is just soo much more to it than that. Yes the aluminum is absorbing the heat but BUT its should also be dissipating/radiating the heat to the outside air too. That is not happening since the coolant is coming out hotter. This is just conductivity with measurment of how much material(alum) is needed. Too much aluminum and you are just storing it and not dissipating enough. Too little aluminum and and your not drawing enough heat out. If the now hotter coolant is going out of the engine now it is also coming in hotter to the stock cylinder before it even hit the head.

As far as the restriction you have a little bit, the coolant still really has no clear path and the way you have set the pockets up you've created another problem with the void pockets that cause cavitation such as airbubbles and flow turbulance. The stock gasket provides optimun restriction and laminar flow to the exhaust. Too much aluminum in place of coolant causing hotspots. You still haven't told me the actual volume of liquid the head holds and if it has an oring for the dome.

Corey, your first head design had serious issues, I know you know that by the way you changed the outlet elbow to the dome area just like the stock one, instead of the very back as on your first design. With a setup like that you had coolant coming in from the back of the cylinder and trying to escape immediately out of the top of the head instead of cooling the cylind and head. Then you realized you also need to add some restriction with your side pockets with slits as the first one didnt have. In essence, all your doing is trying to get closer and closer to the factory design. Why not just utilize it in the first place? If you truly wanted to build a machined head for these you would have just mimmicked the factory head gasket pattern for the bottom of the head followed by keeping the proper factory coolant channels that flowed everywhere like stock. Its extremely hard to machine a head like that as you know, you would have had so much time in machining it, the price would be too hard for the customer to justify. And in the end if you could get over the looks of "billet" it would be comparable in performance to stock.

Not all "coolheads" in the market are bad, many are ok, but this one has issues.

I've made my points and leave it at that. The people that know a thing or two will understand. The rest may get it eventually or not, doesn't matter. And I don't need a poll to tell me if I'm right or wrong.

[cr480r]

too many knutswiengers in this thread.. not enough tech.. billy started this thread for dicussion on cool head cooling.. not who sells what, won what championship, or who should say what.. and the "Oh i used to like you out in cali" type bs.... If its a good product then it will endure a lil criticism and questioning just fine.

[atc400x]

maybe mr razors this is just a big misunderstanding. i do not want to come off like an a hole but seemed like you took this straight at cory and i dont think he had it coming. i say we all make up and billy delites this whole mess. like you i normaly keep my muoth to my self but i could not when i seen what was going on. if no ill intent was ment then sory man.

[cr480r]

I have some questions that i would like to see discussed in this thread..

1. Is the factory head deficient on cooling capacity?
2. is there a such thing as too much heat tranfer? at what point(if any) is combustion efficiency reduced?
3. how does the weight of the two heads compare?
4. how much does the sprock dome design typically increase power?

So far the main benefits I see to a cool head style cylinder head are:

1. the dome inserts are much easier to modify, repair, and swap than oem head.
2. bling factor (personally i prefer the sleeper look)
3. o-rings are much easier to find than big-bore head gaskets

Benefits to oem:

1. stock appearance. good for sleepers, restos, etc
2. less potential for leaks
3. cheap and plentiful

as for HP and Cooling performance I am unsure til more info is available..

[3Razors]

I got sucked in, can't help it. Simplest way I can put it for the people that are having a tough time understanding...If you put all that alum in place instead of normally where coolant can flow, your basically trying to turn a liquid cooled motor into an aircooled. Now I think everyone knows that a liquid cooled motor is the more efficient model.

[TRITecate350]

"The reason the coolant is hotter coming out of the head under the same sitiuation is because the head is transfering the heat out of the engine and into the coolant better than stock" Sprock quote. There is just soo much more to it than that. Yes the aluminum is absorbing the heat but BUT its should also be dissipating/radiating the heat to the outside air too. That is not happening since the coolant is coming out hotter. This is just conductivity with measurment of how much material(alum) is needed. Too much aluminum and you are just storing it and not dissipating enough. Too little aluminum and and your not drawing enough heat out. If the now hotter coolant is going out of the engine now it is also coming in hotter to the stock cylinder before it even hit the head.
Why is this soo hard for you to understand..... The whole reason the motor is liquid cooled is so the water can transport heat out of the engine and into the radiator where it radiates the heat into the air. Your waterjackets are there to suck the heat out of the engine, if the engine doesnt transfer heat into the water, how does it get rid of it? If your coolant is not heating up, it is not transfering heat. Is everyone still listening?
Now you sugest that the water is hotter now going into the cylinder after the radiator had exchanged heat, fair enough....let me address that.
In heat transfer, conduction (or heat conduction) is the transfer of thermal energy between neighboring molecules in a substance due to a temperature gradient. Heat transfer always goes from a region of higher temperature to a region of lower temperature, and acts to equalize the temperature differences.
When the hot coolant trys to equilize with the atmosphere, the greater distance between the temps the faster it will lower the temp of the water and the faster it will raise the temp of the air around the radiator. Example: Boiling water will cool faster if it is 0 degrees in your kitchen, if it is 100 degrees in the kitchen then the boiling water will be slower in transfering its heat. I hope this makes since, another example. snow melts slower when it is 35 degrees outside, but if it is 70 degrees the snow will melt lots faster. Summary: The larger difference you have in temp, the faster the temp will equilize.
So, when my coolant coming out of the head is hotter, the radiator will cool it down faster than less hot coolant. Following this process the head will keep the engine cooler than the cooler coolant coming from the stock head I might have butchered this up, but I hope you get the idea.



"Corey, your first head design had serious issues, I know you know that by the way you changed the outlet elbow to the dome area just like the stock one, instead of the very back as on your first design. With a setup like that you had coolant coming in from the back of the cylinder and trying to escape immediately out of the top of the head instead of cooling the cylind and head. Then you realized you also need to add some restriction with your side pockets with slits as the first one didnt have. In essence, all your doing is trying to get closer and closer to the factory design. Why not just utilize it in the first place? If you truly wanted to build a machined head for these you would have just mimmicked the factory head gasket pattern for the bottom of the head followed by keeping the proper factory coolant channels that flowed everywhere like stock. Its extremely hard to machine a head like that as you know, you would have had so much time in machining it, the price would be too hard for the customer to justify. And in the end if you could get over the looks of "billet" it would be comparable in performance to stock.

Not all "coolheads" in the market are bad, many are ok, but this one has issues.

I am just about had it with your stupid assumptions, my original head design didnt have problems, it utilized the same head gasket you love soo much. How did the water come into the cylinder then straight out of the top of the head, REMEMBER, there are 2 little holes restricting the coolant from doing that in the gasket. Now you are claiming the sides didnt have the restrictions, HEY I USE THE STOCK GASKET WITH THAT HEAD. The flow pattern was the same as stock with that design. PLEASE STICK TO THE FACTS, you keep making assumptions that are not true. The only benefit that head had in cooling was the stepped dome design which is proven to transfer heat better. Another thing, I am not about the shiny billet etc, I am after performance first. NOTICE: Everything I make with exception of a few items, are performance or reliability first.
Intakes: MORE POWER, larger carb ready.
water pump: reliability
clutch basket: better shifting, longer clutch life, no more surging with clutch pulled in
billet heads: more power, better cooling, easy to convert to big bore
big bore kits.....more power.

Back to the old head design, there where no issues. The reason there is a new head, is I wanted a oring sealed head, I wanted to improve the cooling of the engine, (I believe I did, you dont) I have tested the head and have others give me feed back. You have only seen pictures of the head. Hmmmm. Its kinda like the pictures of your family...for instance. I can tell that they smell bad. Also it appears that your family doesnt like you based on the look in the picture they are giving you. Also looking at this picture....wow does everyone have lice? Everyone listen, dont buy razors family, they have lice, smell bad, and hate Jason. Just keep your family, they are better.
Are you getting mad...hope so. Here's the deal, I didnt mean anything I said about your family. I never even seen a picture. Here is how I feel, you claim that my original head has problems with water flow, NOW u know it uses the same damn gasket that your stock head uses. The first thing you said about the new heads...... water can go anywhere, it needs to have a path......then I school u with the info that there is a path, which is the same path as your head gasketed stock head has, only I modified it for better cooling. With out any personal experience you call bs, and say that my slightly modified water path will not work because it isnt the exact same as stock. OH MY GOD, my eyeballs are bleeding. You get in here talking like you know everything, yet you were wrong about every preconcieved idea towards my heads, even when I point out you are wrong, you start attacking another aspect of the head. I cant argue with you, you think you are always freakin right. You are too busy trying to bring me down that you dont even see how mean you are being, people are losing respect for you.

I've made my points and leave it at that. The people that know a thing or two will understand. The rest may get it eventually or not, doesn't matter. And I don't need a poll to tell me if I'm right or wrong.


Yeah the poll seems to be a little much huh. The poll isnt for you, with all this negativity towards me I am starting to think I am one of those arrogant butt heads that can only see things my way. The poll is there so I can quit second guessing myself and maybe get some sleep tonight, I keep having these dreams about argueing with a tree, and no matter how many thrashings I give this tree it continues to just stand there with an educated look on its face. Am I going crazy? If I lose the poll I am going to get medical help.


SOME QUESTIONS!!!!!

I have some questions that i would like to see discussed in this thread..

1. Is the factory head deficient on cooling capacity? NO
2. is there a such thing as too much heat tranfer? at what point(if any) is combustion efficiency reduced? ask razor he probably knows

3. how does the weight of the two heads compare? about the same weight
4. how much does the sprock dome design typically increase power? depends of what is done, if it is bone stock....about 5 I would guess.
So far the main benefits I see to a cool head style cylinder head are:

1. the dome inserts are much easier to modify, repair, and swap than oem head.
2. bling factor (personally i prefer the sleeper look) available in anodized black
3. o-rings are much easier to find than big-bore head gaskets cheaper and since you are aluminum on aluminum and dont have a gasket between, the heat transfer from the cylinder to head is improved.
Benefits to oem:

1. stock appearance. good for sleepers, restos, etc
2. less potential for leaks this is debateable.... gasket material isnt as water proof as rubber, but both installed correctly should have no problem
3. cheap and plentiful thanks to people installing billet heads and ebaying stock heads...wonder why they sell them if the stock was so good?

as for HP and Cooling performance I am unsure til more info is available
you can spend $100-$150 to have your stock head machined for more performance comparable to a billet head. Or you can buy a billet head for about $200 average depending on what machine. They sell cool heads everyday and claim they help with cooling, razor and his friends are the only ones who are not buying into this pack of lies..... Hey lets sue Trinity, Sprock Racing, prodesign, vitos, noss etc. they are all lieing.

cr480r
too many knutswiengers in this thread.. not enough tech.. billy started this thread for dicussion on cool head cooling.. not who sells what, won what championship, or who should say what.. and the "Oh i used to like you out in cali" type bs.... If its a good product then it will endure a lil criticism and questioning just fine.

A little criticism and questioning is fine, especially if you are honestly wanting to know. Razor came into a thread I was selling in, and with both barrels blazing he was spreading lies about my product and deturing people from buying my product. Billy moved this thread out of respect for my product and to keep this more general coolheads not just the sprock racing heads. When razor brings up racers from the old days and engineer friends of his, he is trying to add credibility to what he is saying. The "bs" about liking him in cali was an attempt to let him see that he was not only hurting my feelings, bashing my products, but to make him aware that I am a real person with real feelings. Not just an avatar on the net. It isnt that he has a different oppinion or believes in a different way that people are being turned off by him, its because he is rudely attacking someone who they feel didnt have it coming, and didnt deserve the attack. On top of that he bases his critisims on pictures and his own idea of what the product is.
fabio
I am on neither side here and I am enjoying this debate. IMO, there is nothing wrong with 3Razors questioning the R&D of a new product. If somebody were to make something and just throw it out there with a "Good enough" attitude, that's just not good enough. These things have to be R&D-ed and made sure that they perform as well as, if not better than stock. Why should he not question it? If it is in fact a good, proven product, then prove it. There are a lot of valid points here being made by both sides of the argument. Let them sort it out and we'll see what we have when the dust settles. Why is that so bad?
Again, nothing wrong with questions or questioning the product. I have problems with him not questioning...but exclaiming my heads dont work and here is why....they proceeds with falsehoods about my product, he has not seen my product but in pictures. After I present him with the facts about my product, he then tells me why something else is wrong with the product. I cant win with him, he is not questioning, he is draging me through the mud without cause. Razor can believe me or not that in every test my head has been better than stock, I offer a money back gaurantee if you dont like it send it back. Here is what I am saying....prove it to yourself, if it doesnt pass your test, send it back for full refund. i have nothing to hid. It is so bad because he is misleading the people and running my product in the mud with no proof.

I am really scared to even answer this question....yes my dome has an oring...... Ill have to get back to you on the volume, it wasnt measured with the waterneck.

[TRITecate350]

I got sucked in, can't help it. Simplest way I can put it for the people that are having a tough time understanding...If you put all that alum in place instead of normally where coolant can flow, your basically trying to turn a liquid cooled motor into an aircooled. Now I think everyone knows that a liquid cooled motor is the more efficient model.

....From where the heat is generated, and the head, I have an effecient coolant stream absorbing the heat..... the coolant flows where it benefits the cooling of the engine the most. Long ways away from an aircooled engine.

[3Razors]

If that 1st design head used the stock head gasket then that is even worse. I was under the assumption that it used an o-ring aswell. Now you have coolant coming up from the exhaust area and trying to find its way to the very back of a small section in the cylinder head, the side ports have no clear pathways to circulate either and are cavitation prone.

Cory, how bout the best of both worlds and make me and everyone else happy by making a billet "coolhead" with the factory gasket design on the bottom the same amount of coollant channels, pathways, and at least same amount of liquid volume as stock. The volume could be a bit more if you want to make it that way, having a bit more volume whether or not it will hurt or hinder the cooling is negligible.

[cr480r]

you can spend $100-$150 to have your stock head machined for more performance comparable to a billet head. Or you can buy a billet head for about $200 average depending on what machine.

Why is rechambering a stocker over half the price of a completely brand new labor intensive fully machined billet piece???? are the OEM's that hard to fixture? Even in a case involving some welding $150 still seems crazy to me...


They sell cool heads everyday and claim they help with cooling, razor and his friends are the only ones who are not buying into this pack of lies..... Hey lets sue Trinity, Sprock Racing, prodesign, vitos, noss etc. they are all lieing.

Some of those companys also sell boost bottles and reed spacers... and they sell lots of em... Not saying cool heads dont/cant work cuz its proven they work fine and also offer many nice benefits, just saying product claims by Trinity, Vitos, and others are not always found to be truthful.


BTW: Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.. Considering your position you have done a good job of remaining collected. And better cooling or not the workmanship and pricing of your product seems quite well.

[TRITecate350]

Why is rechambering a stocker over half the price of a completely brand new labor intensive fully machined billet piece???? are the OEM's that hard to fixture? Even in a case involving some welding $150 still seems crazy to me...
Some of those companys also sell boost bottles and reed spacers... and they sell lots of em... Not saying cool heads dont/cant work cuz its proven they work fine and also offer many nice benefits, just saying product claims by Trinity, Vitos, and others are not always found to be truthful.
BTW: Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.. Considering your position you have done a good job of remaining collected. And better cooling or not the workmanship and pricing of your product seems quite well.

I agree %100, boost bottles, roost boost, reed spacers etc are not as great as they make them out to be. I dont run any of them. On price, $60 an hour is about normal here for machine work, finding someone who knows how to rechamber and mod a head is also hard to find, unless you open the back of Dirtwheels. Setup and machining time on manual lathe can take 1-2 hours. I buy the aluminum for $2 per lbs for the billet heads, and because of the quanity and building special fixtures, my machinist can crank them out pretty fast.

Razors, please do yourself a favor and quit assuming, the next pretty thing u pick up at the bar might not be a girl...... grab those genitals and make sure before "she" goes home with ya.

[zoomerman]

Wow there is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. I am currently in my third year studying as an Energy Systems Technologist.
As a suggestion: TRITecate350 aka Sprock If you could go for a ride and data log the inlet and outlet temperatures of the coolant from the motor and create average inlet and outlet temperatures you could find out the total heat removed from the motor and then compare it with a stock head.
With this kind of logging information you could also see the minimum and, maximum temperature spikes

Total heat flow removed from motor exchanged into the air from the Rads = Mass flow rate (GPM)* Cp (specific heat of fluid)* Delta t (outlet temp-inlet temp aka temperature difference)

3 razors you said "Yes the aluminum is absorbing the heat but it should also be dissipating/radiating the heat to the outside air too. That is not happening since the coolant is coming out hotter".

This makes no sense as TRITecate350 has already stated that heat transfer efficiency is increased with a larger in temperature differential.

Cr480 r asked "is there such a thing as too much heat transfer and at what point (if any) is combustion efficiency reduced?

A regular stock combustion motor running pump gas has maximum efficiency with an operating temperature of 80 degrees Celsius or 176 degrees Fahrenheit.

[cr480r]

they also changed the compression ratio and chamber design... so the engine could be developing more heat.. IMO more heat out of the head means the engine is running hotter!!!! In your car the temp guage rises when the coolant temp is INCREASED!!! the heat should be kept in the cylinder where it contributes to power.. not all transfered into the water jacket... some builders even go as far as using reflective coatings on domes and chambers to retain the heat in the cylinder

Edit: a reduced flow through the head would also result in higher coolant temps.

[3Razors]

Wow there is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. I am currently in my third year studying as an Energy Systems Technologist.
As a suggestion: TRITecate350 aka Sprock If you could go for a ride and data log the inlet and outlet temperatures of the coolant from the motor and create average inlet and outlet temperatures you could find out the total heat removed from the motor and then compare it with a stock head.
With this kind of logging information you could also see the minimum and, maximum temperature spikes

Total heat flow removed from motor exchanged into the air from the Rads = Mass flow rate (GPM)* Cp (specific heat of fluid)* Delta t (outlet temp-inlet temp aka temperature difference)

3 razors you said "Yes the aluminum is absorbing the heat but it should also be dissipating/radiating the heat to the outside air too. That is not happening since the coolant is coming out hotter".

This makes no sense as TRITecate350 has already stated that heat transfer efficiency is increased with a larger in temperature differential.

Cr480 r asked "is there such a thing as too much heat transfer and at what point (if any) is combustion efficiency reduced?

A regular stock combustion motor running pump gas has maximum efficiency with an operating temperature of 80 degrees Celsius or 176 degrees Fahrenheit.

Yes a larger differential is better between the outlet and inlet temps, but Sprock hasn't given us those temps with stock compared to coolhead. While you were measuring that you would also MUST measure the heat directly on the head and cylinder at same time. It would have to be under running conditions too, various loads, no idle stuff. If the difference was greater and the coolhead was showing higher temps over stockhead then it means the head is just making more heat. The coolhead must show a cooler temp than stock head for it to mean something with a greater differential.

[bzerk]

this may sound like bull crap but test it for your self if you dont believe.... you can actually have to much flow(not saying cool head does) causing the coolant to increase in temperature. to prove this drive your car then take the thermostat out and drive it again you will see the increase in temperature. im guessing the reason its hotter is the because the coolant doesn't have time to cool down in the radiator before returning to the engine.

[NOS_350X]

I have been running a cool head on my banshee for several years now, racing TT, Its o-ringed. Also on my 250r's O-ringed stock heads. O-ring desings are far superior, the heads are naturally designed to flow watter to the exhaust side then up. without the gasket, the gasket just assists in that.

[kaw rider]

Most cooling systems have problem with the waterpump. Most single pass radiators, heads and hoses will flow more water then the pump can push. There are new designs with smaller volume of water in the head are the dome area. You what the head to be under a postive pressue from the pump. You need a pressue drop across the head water circuit.