1986 Yamaha 225 Tri Moto

[transam8405]

Just bought it, I am new to 3 wheelers. So there is going to be some dumb questions here.
1. Does anybody know where I can get a paper copy of a repair manual for this bike?
2. What kind of oil does this take
3. Where can I get good parts for the cheapest price for these?
4. The trike seems to not completly go into 1st gear every now and then. Like the trans is slipping or something. Is there a fix for this, or is the trans going out?

Any and all help is appreciated, I am a mechanic so I will pick up on it fast. I just want to do everything is good on this bike because I want it to last. It is in great shape and I wanna keep it that way without breaking the bank lol.

Thanks in advance.

Kevin

[Mr.Atc]

1. get the original manual from ebay or search online and there are probably downloadable manuals
2. 10w-40 id run amsoil in it its good stuff
3. ebay
4. idk never had it happen to me

[transam8405]

Ok thanks for the info. Ya I was thinking either Amsoil or Royal purple, thats what I run in my Trans Am. I know the guy I bought it from was saying he runs Yamalube, just was not sure if that was better than car oil or not. I am thinking of adjusting the clutch to see if that makes the shifting better or not. I will have to check out ebay for the manual. Thanks again

[Yamaha3wheeler]

Only run Yamalube! Especially since that was what he was running. Yamalube is an excellent oil. Never run automotive oil in an ATV. You will cause your clutch to slip due to the friction reducing additives. Don't forget to change the oil filter.

There is a manual floating around on here. Search around and you will find it.

If you want to adjust the clutch. Here is a quick how-to. With the engine cold losen the lock nut. Turn the screw slowly (counterclockwise) until you feel resistance. When you feel it get tight then turn it 1/8 of a turn in the opposite direction (clockwise) and lock the nut.

[transam8405]

ok thank you. I am going to do that prolly this weekend. OK I will pick up some Yamalube from the local Yamaha shop this weekend too. I was told that a lawn mower battery will work in these also, is that true or do I need to buy a motorcycle battery? Sorry for the newbie questions, this is ny first atv. I have rode them alot in the past just never owned one myself

[muthey]

here's some questions for you is it a dx or a dr, does it have reverse, also, how high is the idle I know with my dx it gets a lil pissy at times when trying to shift it down or up depending on the throttle. I would only run yamalube or hondalube, regular motor oil will eventually cause them to start smoking, and avoid synthetic unless you have freshly rebuilt it. Synthetic will find a leak even if you don't have one previously, because it is thinner. Parts wise I would say stick to a dealer, unless you have a expensive dealer mine is very reasonable here, otherwise e-bay for parts or here in the classifieds. Anything in particular you are looking for, I might have it. And one last thing if you change the back breaks do both pads, I just had to replace the whole rear brake assembly on mine because p.o. only did one pad.

[transam8405]

I am not sure which it is. All the decals are peeled off it. I know that it does not have reverse. Iam going to stick with amalube, I have a dealer right up the road from me. The idle seems good, it is not a high idle at all. There is no parts I really need, just a battery, ad it will need some tires in the future. The ones I have are ok but I would like to have better. I think it is going to need a new pull start here soon too, soetimes it gts stuck and don;t wanna reel itself in, I need to take it off and clean it before I replace it. I was just wanting to know where I could get parts for future reference.

[MonroeMike]

If it does not have reverse, it is not an 1986. Post the VIN off the neck, we'll figure out what you own.

Not paper, but some info here.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php?125954-YTM200-YTM200e-YTM225-Service-Data

http://72.52.143.80/~trikes/ytm200&225-fm200_clymer_manual.pdf

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ibzepu

[transam8405]

The previous owner told me it was a 86, but he gave me a new set of brake pads for it, when I looked on the back of the package it was hand written saying they was for a 85 YTM 225. I will post up some pics and the vin here in the next few days when I get time. I know there is 2 lights on the handle bars one is green (neutral) one is red (not sure what it is for since it is rubbed off). Thank you for the manual links, I am just going to print them off, I know I talked to Yamaha about them and they was wanting like 40 bucks for them. Thanks again guys for all the help.

[muthey]

well the red light is for reverse, but you said it didn't have it, it is different on yammis, than hondas. On a yammi the reverse lever is by the pull starter, also with the pull starter, sounds like it needs to be cleaned and re greased. When you reassemble it don't lock the nut that holds it all together down really tight or it will hang like it's doing, I believe the manual will tell you the torque spec for that nut, and show all the lube points that is needed. Also does it have rear suspension, because a lot of 225 and 200 parts are identical especially the brake pads, if you could post pics that would be great help too

[muthey]

I forgot to mention that if you find out it is the clutch that went bad I have a good set sitting here just tore down a 1985 225 dr motor, as too much was missing from the drivers side to want to rebuild it, I found out that what was really wrong with it was a bad cam chain, meaning it had snapped and was no longer there. Original piston was freshly ringed, and was missing the pullstart and the engine spacer with forward and reverse lever.

[smvorndran]

Never run automotive oil in an ATV. You will cause your clutch to slip due to the friction reducing additives. Don't forget to change the oil filter.


I've used automotive oil in all my atvs and motorcycles for the last 20 years without a problem. As long as it doesn't say "energy conserving" in the little circle, it's ok for the clutches. Oil is oil. I run cheap 10W40 from Oreillys or Advanced Auto without any problems. Let the oil war begin!

[transam8405]

hhmmm, ok when I asked the previous owner about reverse he said it did not have it, he owned it for 5 years so I had to think he knows everything about it. Mybye it does have it then since it has the red light. So there will be a lever by the pull start. I am going to have to look for this lever. If I get time today I will take some pics of it. If not I will do it tomorrow, I also am going to get the vin and run it. Thanks for the info on the pull start and I will also let you know about the clutch. Yeah it has rear suspension, it has a monoshock. I think I am going to stick with yamalube, mainly for the reason that is all that has ever bin in the engine.

[Yamaha3wheeler]

@ smvorndran

That might start an oil war. Just kidding. I completely agree with what you are saying and I definitely appreciate you bringing that point up.

I recommended Yamalube to him knowing that it is definitely compatable with his 3 wheeler. Of course you can do some research and save a few bucks using a non ATV oil and be just fine. I probably will spend 20-30 dollars more per year for Yamalube. For my peace of mind I choose to stick with what I know works. I've also been know to mis-read labels. In other words, I could possibly conserve some energy.

I think it is really up to what the owner feels comfortable with. I also baby mine like my first born.

So anyway, like I said, you brought up a excellent point.

[Nubbinz]

You should buy a Clymer manual online, there like 25 bucks or so they tell you EVERYTHING. Id say go to your Yamaha shop and buy their oil, it has additives for a wet clutch, if u run car oil in it I'm not saying it'll burn out in two days but over a few years you'll wear out your clutch, as far as viscosity, probably 10-w40. I know on my Honda trike every part I've needed for it so far I've been able to buy brand new at my local Honda dealer, its a little pricey but you know your getting good stuff, I don't know if Yamaha still sells brand new parts for their trikes but If not ebay is good or buy a whole parts bike off craigslist for 100 bucks or so... If it doesn't wanna go into first gear sometimes that's pretty normal for an old trike, mine would do that sometimes and the clutch and trans were fine as far as I know, just try rocking it while shifting, sometimes the wheels have to be very slightly moving for it to shift, my 93 Kingquad 250 does that sometimes, and its mint, as well as just have been rebuilt two months ago. Hope it helps

[muthey]

we actually have the clymer manual available for down load on the site here Nubbinz, so it is a lot easier to download it and print it out his self, and yamaha actually carries more parts for the 225 size trikes than honda does for most of theirs

[transam8405]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/transam8405/CIMG0493.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/transam8405/CIMG0492.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/transam8405/CIMG0491.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/transam8405/CIMG0490.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/transam8405/CIMG0494.jpg

Not bad for $300. I looked on the front of the frame, right behind the headlight, the only numbers I can get off that are YAM29V0223

[transam8405]

ok i just found what looks like it says JY329UU07F0104838 that is the best I can see/guess of what it says lol, there is a tag that says its a 1985

[muthey]

It is a 1985 225 dx, and from what I can tell the bracket for the headlight was replaced which is why there is a red light. Also your tail light is not original and it looks like the grab bar is bent up some. The best bet for the tank plastics is ebay, and the petcock valve I would go to a dealer for it should come in a kit for about 15$ new. You might even want to check out the seat covers on ebay, as that one doesn't fit quite right and some of them look really awesome for decent prices. Just saw something else too the headlight plastic is off of a 200, the 225 has a grill on each side.

[MonroeMike]

That's a YTM200 front fender also.

[transam8405]

ok thank you so much for the help, ateast I know what I got now lol. I think it was a good buy for $300. Ya I knew the fender was not original, he gave me the original one with it, and new set of brakes, front forks, and a spare front tire and wheel. Thanks again for all the help everybody. You have no idea how much I appreciate it.

[bobotech]

I have a spare side tank cover, only one side but it is yellow and would match. I think it is the passenger side.

If you do decide to replace the seat cover, i would gladly take yours since I'm out of work and can't afford much stuff to pretty up my YTM225.

Looking good though for 300 bux considering its got a full suspension. Might not be a 200x but it is still worth it. I have 2 of them, a blue and a yellow YTM225dx.

[bambam1369]

Parts unlimeted,and Rocky Mnt ATV are good places to get new oem parts. Also go to the groups link at top of page and join the ytm yamaha group.

[transam8405]

OK I will join that, ya I found rocky mountain, I will check out the parts unlimeted site too. I will let you know if I get a new seat. If I do find a seat I like and get it you can have mine. Thanks again for all the help

[teamboaty]

I also just bought my 1st Yamaha 225dx. Ive had prolly a billion Hondas but here is my beauty. Im also swpping out my clutch tomorrow but Im taking it out of a timberwolf 250. From what I have read they are a direct fit and better built. They are also much easier to find then the tri moto. Here is a couple pics of mine.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w183/BOATYTOOM/009.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w183/BOATYTOOM/dx2252.jpg

[teamboaty]

Timberwolf 250 clutch installed now and it is frickin awesome.

[leevarnado]

i also have a timberwolf clutch in mine,but i notice that the 250 clutch shoes are not as wide as the 225.but still grabs pretty good.im able to 3rd gear wheelies from a dead stop.

[Eberanth]

Hi! Total noob here got an 86 YTM 225 drx I think. I put some oil in the spark plug hole for wet compression test 110 psi after 8 pulls. but now this switch on the throttle side mounted to the top ended above the exhaust (skeeps tripping each time I pull it over. I have no idea what is happening, thoughts? Also need carb replacement or at least a kit with floaters as the insides were rotten!! Any suggestions where to get one. I’m near Brampton Ontario Canada. Thanks!

[El Camexican]

The lever on the side of the head of your engine is called a decompression lever. If there is simply a handle on it then to the best of my knowledge it shouldn’t be moving when you turn the engine over. However, if there is a cable attached to it that leads back to the pull starter, then it is activating each time you pull the pull starter and is bleeding off compression by means of holding your exhaust valve open during the initial pull on the rope.

Were you holding the throttle wide open when checking you compression? It has to be, or you’ll get a low reading. Pull until the needle stops going up. As many pulls as it takes.

As far as a carb kit, if you do some searching on here I believe you will find that some people have managed to do a rebuild using a kit for a Timberwolf.

[Eberanth]

Thanks! yes i did have the throttle wide open, I also had the carb removed while doing the test. there is no cable attached but it keeps tripping. ill do some more digging on here thanks again!

[350for350]

If you mean that you lift the lever up and the lever falls back down on it's own when you pull the engine over, that's what it's supposed to do. At least the ones on the two that I had always did this. If it didn't automatically fall down, the engine wouldn't have enough compression to start.

[Eberanth]

Good news bad news, re tested compression today and it went as high as 160, will re test again tmrw. bad news cleaned the carb tried to start and nothing, pull and e start did not want to go. pull start is very tough to turn over on about the third pull any thoughts? Also i sheared the nut off the oil drain cap because i decided to change the oil.... any suggestinos on how to get that bugger out now besides taking it to a machine shop? (edited for language)

[DSHOT59]

You need the decompression cable from the pull start to the head to work . My ytm 200 was a bear to pull after a few pulls too fixed the cable and now fires right up.

[El Camexican]

Good news bad news, re tested compression today and it went as high as 160, will re test again tmrw. bad news cleaned the carb tried to start and nothing, pull and e start did not want to go. pull start is very tough to turn over on about the third pull any thoughts? Also i sheared the nut off the oil drain cap because i decided to change the oil.... any suggestinos on how to get that bugger out now besides taking it to a machine shop? (edited for language)

You sheared the nut off that massive aluminum disk? Smack it lightly with a hammer and try to grab it with a pair of Vice Grips to remove it and then replace it. I think Yamaha still sells them. Get a new O-ring too. The screen cage can be cleaned and reused. Make sure there's no burrs and don’t over tighten it or use sealant.

If you can’t get at it with Vise Grips you can try using a small chisel and hammer to break it loose, just make sure not to damage yours cases.

Re: starting, do you have spark?

[Eberanth]

yup! totally snapped right off, took some doing but got her out, Thank you for all your help so far! ill have to get a photobucket account and post some pics of this poor neglected soul.

[Eberanth]

Any suggestions on how to go about that? - edit I see my problem, I have no decompression cable LOL

[350for350]

From my limited experience with them, the 225's didn't have a decomp cable. They used a manual decomp lever. You lift it up to start pulling the engine over. then it falls back down on it's own so that the engine will build compression and run. It looks like the one in this picture.264200You can see it at the right, center of the picture.

[El Camexican]

From my limited experience with them, the 225's didn't have a decomp cable. They used a manual decomp lever. You lift it up to start pulling the engine over. then it falls back down on it's own so that the engine will build compression and run. It looks like the one in this picture.264200You can see it at the right, center of the picture.

I think you’re right, the electric start models didn’t have the cable setup..

[ATC King]

Also i sheared the nut off the oil drain cap because i decided to change the oil.... any suggestinos on how to get that bugger out now besides taking it to a machine shop? (edited for language)

I've had that happen on a Honda too. The center just broke out.

On the Honda valve adjustment caps, drain plugs (185/200 series), and shaft final drives, they have a large 'nut' size which means using a large wrench. I think over the years of people tightening them too much, they eventually fracture. They have O-rings and don't require being that tight, don't hold anything together, and they're just a cap.

[Eberanth]

I think you’re right, the electric start models didn’t have the cable setup..

Yup! no wonder I couldn't find one anywhere. I am waiting on a new carb and the oil plug and gasket i ordered, hopefully once I get those items sorted she will fire up.

[Eberanth]

thanks to the tips on this site, the carb i ordered came and it fits! now just waiting on that oil plug.

[El Camexican]

thanks to the tips on this site, the carb i ordered came and it fits! now just waiting on that oil plug.

Put a little anti-seize on the threads and tighten it snug plus 1/8 of a turn and nothing more. Should last you forever, but grab a few extra o-rings. In theory they should be replaced every time you remove the plug to do an oil change.

[Eberanth]

Finally got that drain plug and thanks to your guys help it fired up after idle adjustment. I'm so pumped! Next issue is the wiring. It's a total disaster. Shut off does NOT work lol. Think I saw a link on some wiring diagrams here. Also when at speed the engine bogs hard. Only in gear though. I can rev the crap out of it in neutral with no bogging. Amy thoughts?

PS thanks again guys this is my first time getting something like this going and I'm so stoked I found this community.

[ps2fixer]

Didn't read the whole thread, but read the first page. On the topic of oil, make sure whatever you use, it's safe for wet clutches, atv/motorcycle oil. Generic automotive oil likely will not be good for the engine, mainly the clutches. The Yamaha branded oil is a safe bet, but pretty much anything with the proper certifications will be fine, the manual should state which certs it should have on the back of the oil jug.

[Eberanth]

Didn't read the whole thread, but read the first page. On the topic of oil, make sure whatever you use, it's safe for wet clutches, atv/motorcycle oil. Generic automotive oil likely will not be good for the engine, mainly the clutches. The Yamaha branded oil is a safe bet, but pretty much anything with the proper certifications will be fine, the manual should state which certs it should have on the back of the oil jug.

Was hoping to get some feed back on my question about bogging on WOT just above

[ATC King]

Was hoping to get some feed back on my question about bogging on WOT just above

I went back to the beginning of this short thread, second post was some member using Carl from ATHF as an avatar, I got lost ATHF randomness for a minute, then came back to this post.

Your bogging issue is no load versus load on the engine. A weak ignition can act like that. A higher engine load creates higher cylinder pressures. This isn't the same as compression ratio or compression PSI, and it takes a more energetic spark the higher the cylinder pressure is. If the ignition is borderline, it may idle OK and run alright at light throttle or in neutral, but put a load on it, and you're getting poor combustion from a weak spark.

It's also probable the fueling system is off, as in incorrect jetting, but in gear versus not is still an engine load difference. Kind of like on a old carbureted car, you really have to rev the engine high to get vacuum secondaries to open on a four barrel carb if it's in park, but under load, they'll begin to open at a lower RPM because the load is demanding more power from the engine.

[ps2fixer]

I don't know the Yamaha models super great, but generally bogging is carb related. If you're stabbing the throttle fast and it bogs, that might be normal, I doubt there's an accelerator pump in the carb so there's a brief moment the engine is to lean. Under normal riding you shouldn't notice bogging though. WOT suggests to me the main jet/needle circuit needs cleaned. Here's a chart to get an idea what effects what range of the throttle generally speaking. Not a whole lot to look at for above 3/4 throttle. This ignores things like fuel supply, like if you're running the machine hard and it starts to run poorly, it's likely fuel delivery, but if you're just starting the engine, letting it warm up some and reving it up and it doesn't run right, I'd be taking the carb apart for cleaning. If you want you could get a "rebuild" kit for the carb, new gaskets, jets and such, but you still have to clean the circuits (holes in the carb body) so that they free flow fluids. Using carb clean and the straw against the hole should shoot out the carb clean in another location if not completely blocked off.

https://i.gyazo.com/1fce43618d8f88aacc370a55344c6081.png

It also sounds like you've adjusted the pilot jet, this could also be a sign the slow/pilot jet is dirty if you had to open it up more. It's always possible someone fiddled with the settings though. I would give what the factory "base line" setting is, but sadly the Clymer manual seemed to have forgotten to include it... this is why I'm not much of a fan for the Clymer manuals compared to the manufacture manuals. It says to see table 8...

https://i.gyazo.com/2c5496e5c9032c6bec7209b4e5c01587.jpg

I don't see the spec, maybe I'm blind?

https://i.gyazo.com/f85b2a3272bc5d4c76ce0942f291f9cc.png

Sadly, I don't have the actual Yamaha manual to reference. I have Honda and Kawasaki spec manuals, but haven't expanded to the other brands yet.

[Eberanth]

Great feed back guys! Its a brand new carb so.its in good shape. I ordered the carb it's for a timber Wolf and the fuel line is a little smaller than what was on there so I'm not sure if that could be an issue. I may be a bit stabbing hard on the throttle so I'm going to be more conscience of that It's also backfiring a lot though. If it is an ignition issue any suggestions on how to improve or test?

[ps2fixer]

Simplest for ignition system would be a timing light and check the timing. There's also the mechanical timing (crank vs cam) which can cause somewhat similar issues. The service manual should cover the process pretty well on how to test both.

[ATC King]

If it is an ignition issue any suggestions on how to improve or test?

Yamaha has a spark energy test. There is a 'tool' the OE shops may of had, but there's also something you can buy that's more or less like that, at a very reasonable cost.

Give me a bit and I'll give you some numbers from the tool I have.

If you bought a Chinese carb and put it straight on with the jets it came with, it's very likely the jetting is wrong. I've already been down that road on my YTM200K. Check the 'Moved to the Yellow Side' thread for what I went through with one of those carbs.

[ps2fixer]

For the spark energy test, I suspect it's a roundabout way to test the voltage of the ignition coil output. There's an automotive tool to actually read the kv reading, but I don't think those are cheap. In the small engines world, I've only seen a spark gap test tool which does a less accurate version of the same test, about a 6-7mm gap. Here's a random google page on it, not sure if the numbers are right but 6mm gap is 0.6cm * 30,000v = 18kv, seems about right.

https://sciencing.com/calculate-voltage-spark-gaps-8776030.html

This tool is a little different than I've seen before, but a proper shop might have a similar tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHU01046xgU

For the at home repair job, grab a PET-4000, they are reasonable priced and not a random Chinese no name company. Here's a video of a guy using one on a chain saw, same process applies to 3 wheelers an basically any other engine with spark plug wires. The test tool doesn't need to say echo or any special brand, it's all made in the same place and rebranded for different resellers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dipmevU5cjU

Do NOT use the test light style spark testers, they only show there's *something* there, not that the something is good or bad. The non-adjustable spark testers can work, they generally are cheaper and are built with a 6mm gap.

I don't know what the Yamaha OE tool is, but I suspect it's something similar to the above. Also you can slightly tell voltage based on spark color with the plug against the head, but it only works for low/weak spark and not when it's closer to boarder line. Aka, if spark is yellow or orange, it's weak spark, if it's white or blue, well it's better than yellow or orange, but doesn't mean it's actually good. If I'm thinking right, the color of the spark is more of a visual of the temp of the spark than the actual voltage.

Compression comes into play on the open in the wind spark test, the air we breath is effectively around 14.7psi from a complete vacuum, inside the engine the spark plug sees ~150-180 psi (plus the initial 14.7 we don't count for normally) with something like 200mph winds. That means the air is over 10 times more dense which makes it harder for the spark to jump. Don't forget to add in a mist of fuel with those winds =).



I'd be interested to see what the Yamaha tool is. I also agree, the Chinese carbs seem to have poor jetting out of the box, sometimes you're a winner, sometimes not. I think replacing the jets with quality ones starting at the stock jetting numbers for the machine is a solid starting point, but it should be fine tuned for best results.

[ATC King]

This is what El Manual says about the spark gap for a YTM200K (presuming a 225 is similar):

264842


This is what I got at idle for spark energy:

264844
264843

About 4kV at idle. Whether or not that's completely accurate, IDK. It's at least a baseline for my machine if it acts up in the future. The tester ps2fixer mentioned will work good for this application. I like the Snap-On tool because it's an inductive pickup, and nothing is disturbed during it's use.

[ps2fixer]

4kv seems quite low, 6mm gap in open air should be around 18kv. That's based on the math of 1cm gap = 30kv at sea level unless that googled number is invalid which is very possible.

It's interesting the manual shows to use the gap tester inline with the spark plug, so you have the plug gap + the 6mm spec overall. I've never used that tool, maybe that's more of a normal reading for it due to the inductive style pickup?

[ATC King]

Yes, the inductive pickup is the difference, because it's not testing the system for maximum energy like the 6mm spec the Yamaha gives. The tool I used is just detecting the kV produced during operation of an intact system.

Try that math again, with a gap of 0.6-0.7mm, which is the spark plug gap for the engine.

The kV can also be lower because of a rich mixture. There's several things to take into consideration, but I wanted to give the Yamaha test spec and what I found with a inductive test tool. The gap tool you suggested is great for the Yamaha spec, because it's affordable, readily available new, and seems to be what was built into the Yamaha OE tool.

The kV does read higher on the Snap-On tool if I rev the engine or put it under load, like in gear and dragging the rear brake. I chose idle for simplicity, but I can record the other numbers and find maximum if someone else has a similar tool and would like something to compare.

[ps2fixer]

The problem with using the math on the spark plug gap size is out in normal air pressure it will be ~1.8-2.1kv, but when you throw it in the engine, there's a lot more resistance for the spark to jump. That's why at normal air pressure the spec is 6mm, but in the engine it's 0.6-0.7mm for most engines.

The kv should more or less be determinate on the ignition coil and it's power source. With a tool picking up the voltage, maybe the numbers work a bit different since it's indirectly reading the flow and the spark plug is in the engine so maybe it's only using 4kv (it sparks before a higher voltage is built up?) and not the system's maximum capacity.

I'd be interested if you could repeat the test with another atv, maybe a good running Honda to see if the figure changes. Also do you happen to have a gap spark tester? It would be really interesting to fire the engine up on that and indirectly read the kv and make the gap larger and see what happens to the reading.

I googled around a bit and any site that mentions kv about small engines is either hacked or the page diesn't exist any more, really weird. In the summary on google I saw around 12-15kv being the min for lawn mowers and some motorcycle. I know the automotive world with EFI runs at much higher voltages

Finally found a source I can link, not the greatest site in the world to use for fact checking or anything but that's the 3rd mention for small engines in the 12-15kv range. I know car ignition systems can be very high voltage, I've seen the spark jump atleast 1/2 inch before which would calc to 76kv with the 1cm = 30kv math.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_coil

A large ignition coil puts out about 40 kV, and a small one such as from a lawn mower puts out about 15 kV.

Anyway, not exactly trying to argue or anything, I think the kv tester provides a different measurement than the spark gap test. My guess would be effectively working kv vs max kv (you increase the gap till the engine misfires or dies).

This video supports what you said on the air fuel ratio and such, interesting tester to have around, that's for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xqik9NsbWA

I wonder if different plug types give different readings too, like standard vs iridium.

[ATC King]

I was going to add some things to my last post, but didn't get around to it early enough.

The first section in this article sums it up pretty quickly: https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/repair-maintenance/how-to-diagnose-a-weak-ignition-system

I think paragraph five is what's important for this thread:

"If the engine was still idled and a load was gently applied (engaging a PTO, for example), the voltage required to arc the plug would increase dramatically. Due to this, the engine may run fine under a given operating state and then buck, pop, and misfire when faced with different operating conditions."

The ignition only puts out what energy is needed to create a spark, and that demand is different from idle on up and under different conditions. A 40kV coil does not produce that all the time, that's only the maximum it can deliver.

It's like engine horsepower ratings. A 300hp engine only makes that much power when called for. At idle or just cruising down the highway, it's not making anything near that.

Also, it's why installing a high powered coil on an engine that never needs it, is a waste of money. Most engines have all they need from the factory, but if increasing the power output, they'll probably benefit from a more powerful coil, especially if adding a turbo or supercharger. Higher cylinder pressures requires more energy for a spark to jump the plug gap and higher power engines will have higher cylinder pressures under load.

The test in the Yamaha manual, where a huge gap is used, is like putting the ignition system under load. It'll test what's the maximum power it can produce, but it's only a basic test for the ignition. If the voltage was measured with another tool while the gap was increased and decreased, it'd be seen increasing and decreasing the same. Whatever energy is needed to jump the gap, is all the ignition will produce. That's also why bad wires and plugs can damage the ignition coil, it's acting like a full load all the time and burning up.

When using an inductive type tool, the actual kV needed during running conditions is being seen. This will include all the variables, which is why it's a more useful diagnostic tool and why using something like an oscilloscope to watch ignition waveforms can pretty much give an experienced user a direct look into what is actually happening inside the cylinder during ignition.

Touching on the first sentence of your post, that' why it's ~4kV with the inductive tool at idle and not 2.1kV. Inside the engine, it's taking more energy than it would in open air, like you mentioned.

Edit: I found a good video on YouTube of stock versus aftermarket 'performance' coils on a stock car, with dyno results. They're all so close to the stock coil performance that even dyno acuraacy isn't close enough to say there's any difference. If they done internal engine modifications or added a turbo, then the performance coils may have made more power over stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQOApqmq7oE

[ps2fixer]

Yea all that makes sense to me, the only thing I don't 100% perfectly understand the physics of is the ignition coil, the whole creating a feild then it collapsing to create the high voltage. I get how transformers work, but ignition coils are.

The only thing I'd question on the above is the amps, like a high output coil that is capable of 40kv but it only uses 10kv, wouldn't it effectively be putting out 4x the amps, aka 4x the energy, joules, watt, or whatever measurement you'd want to do. I'd think the spark voltage would be the same, but the spark thickness would be thicker.

I've personally experienced ignition problems related to changing load. 1990 Grand Am with the 2.5L 4cyl, just bought the car so my typical thing is a basic tune up, plugs, and wires for that car (cap + rotor if it had them). I noticed while driving 55mph if I gave it just a tiny bit more gas, it would start missing. It was back when I was a teen, so I asked my dad and the first thing he said was to swap spark plug wires out to see if the problem follows, if not swap plugs around. Wires had no change, when I pulled the spark plugs, the porcelain broke on one when it came out of the socket, it was together good enough to pull the spark plug wire, but was broken new from the box. Replaced the bad plug and it ran fine after that. I suspect the spark must have been jumping from the center electrode to the base of the spark plug through the crack when the engine needed high enough voltage to run and that was the path of least resistance for the electricity to go.

Like I said, I think both tests measure different things. I bet your spark tester would have picked up the problem on the Grand Am example above, but the gap based test wouldn't because the problem wasn't with the ignition coil. I think both test methods would be valuable to have for anyone serious about reparing engines, one to effectively load test the ignition coil to validate it works even under the worst case situations which I assume the 6mm gap is the spec for, and the kv tester to read how much voltage is needed for the ignition as a whole system test (plugs, coil, wire, fuel mix, compression, oil blow by, etc).

I didn't know the two testers would give different results, and I think I understand pretty well why that is and when to use each tool. I have the PET-4000 tester, but not a KV tester. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but I'd like to play around a bit more with the ignition coil readings with different CDI's for the 350x. Generally speaking the low ohms stator with an aftermarket CDI the engine runs ok at low rpm, but mid to high rpm it runs like complete garbage, like the ignition system isn't getting spark above a certain rpm, but it's not a rev limiter. The later model 350x stator seems to not have the problem at all from what I've heard from Mike and people's experience with his aftermarket CDI's. I think it would be interesting to work out a way to read the capacitor's capacitance inside the CDI to see how wildly off the aftermarket ones are vs the stock one.

Speaking of the CDI, I came across a diagram in a service manual showing AC vs DC powered CDI's, it made a lot of sense why the DC CDI actually performs better, basically it gave consistent output but I'd like to find the page again. The AC CDI's all are powered by an exciter coil, and it seems like each machine has a differnet design of coil, so the CDI is built different, and the ignition coil probably has slightly different specs because of that. The DC CDI in theory should have standardized parts more, atleast within the same brand.



I think we went a little deeper on this subject than the OP expected, hopefully we haven't lost everyone else xD.

Just finished reading that page, pretty good write up. I don't really agree with the spark issues first then fuel, atleast in the context of small engines, even more so with ATV's that tend to sit for long periods of time. Now if it's in the context of a car, then yea, ignition first, fuel second since the machine is used atleast once a week most likely.

[ATC King]

ps2fixer, I think the big takeaway from what we've discussed is the PET4000 tool you mentioned (available on Amazon & EBay) and the Yamaha test specs.

I don't think Honda ever mentions any king of spark energy test in their manuals. Probably Kawasaki too and to a lesser extent, Suzuki (barely even made trikes).

The other thing is your willingness to invest in parts to test them, which is very much appreciated, as others have said.

It would be nice to start a thread just for various ignitions and their recorded energies using different tools. Spark or no spark doesn't cut it when trying to diagnose poor engine performance, or even for a non running engine with a weak spark.

Knowing what a good ignition system actually measures at would help tremendously. People have been getting by for decades without that knowledge, but for anyone that doesn't want to guess or doesn't have years of experience, buying a relatively inexpensive tool and having the information, may let them keep most of their hair and possibly, their trike.

Although I like to go more in depth on some things, there's not much need for going nuts with the ignition stuff on low power, small engines. New parts availability and testing information are more than enough.

[ps2fixer]

That's a really neat idea, wouldn't hurt to throw something like that as a community powered database on my site. I don't have any user entered data on the site yet, but there's no way I'd ever be able to test all machines myself, but 1000's of people could pull it off easily. Of course engines will have different readings, but a generic target would be nice to know.

For the ignition coil, of my understanding, the 6mm gap test is pretty universal, effectively every engine should pass the 6mm spec, but somewhere I'm pretty sure I some performance models spec to 7mm as the min, I'm thinking it was Kawasaki but I can't seem to find it again. Guess I have too many books lol.

I think we both process things similarly. I like to try to understand things fully, no mystery black boxes and such. I'm better with computers than engines, this is kind of my secondary passion lol.

[czac]

same issue here....although, i never did get my oil plug out.. tried like hell, about the only thing i didn't try was a drill! lol sooo, now i use one of them sucker drain things to get the old oil out lol... dont know how it got in so tightly without snapping or stripping in the first place...

[czac]

yes the 225 doesn't use a decomp cable, you just flip the lever up on the cylinder head and pull the rope. the switch will fall back down as you pull the rope so you need to flip it up every time you go to pull her to start. no electric starter? i hate pull starting mine, its a bear to start up if its been sitting for a few weeks.

[Eberanth]

I did end up using a drill lol.

[ps2fixer]

Got some more spec books in the mail which happened to include the YTM225DR, spark plug gap spec is 6mm. Sadly the DX specs page is missing, they were such terrible books (binders), I bought 4 and lots of overlap, and still missing a fair number of pages :-/. Anyway, pretty sure the DX and DR has the same ignition specs/parts.

https://i.gyazo.com/5b3a118b8ef9f6d3573f676f15a50d38.jpg
https://i.gyazo.com/d6bcb695866a2a4729e36cae30834182.jpg

[DSHOT59]

the drain plug must be a Yamaha thing mine won't come out either ,I pulled the oil filter cover and tipped it to that side and got out as much as I could. Figured it was better then nothin. :rolleyes:

[El Camexican]

the drain plug must be a Yamaha thing mine won't come out either ,I pulled the oil filter cover and tipped it to that side and got out as much as I could. Figured it was better then nothin. :rolleyes:

Suggest you order a new one while they’re still available and get the old one out. There’s a strainer basket in there that needs to be cleaned and you probably didn’t get all the old oils out.

[Eberanth]

Re jetted with the old main jet and she's running way more smooth.

[Eberanth]

Now the next thing is wiring the kill switch because that ain't working. Also it's a real pain to get into and out of reverse. Amy thoughts? PS I feel like I hijacked this thread but everyone has been so helpful

[Eberanth]

Update. Was filing way to high for smooth shifting from reverse to forward.