250sx Help!

[userj8670]

Recently have noticed that when i am shutting down my SX it makes this spooling down noise and I am sure it cant be good. Please see the video.
Any help is appreciated!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYlkuOdgo4s

[tri again]

Some great posts lately about spindown noises. Last few days actually.
Can you get the search key to work?

If I run across them, I'll certainly post the references.
Whatever it is, I recall that the parts are avail and not real rocket science to get it fixed.
Possibly some sort of flywheel or clutch basket holder to keep it from spinning when disassembling and MAYBE something reverse thread but I am GUESSING.

Some other symptoms may help.
Will it kick start or not grab?
Can it be jump / push started?

Does it need to rev higher than normal to move fwd in gear?...that kinda thing.

Someone will surely jump in soon, if nothing else, to make fun of my incompetence.

GREAT vid and audio btw.

[barnett468]

Hello

It is typically the one way bearing in the clutch. See item 25 in the link below. Yours also sounds like a starter motor but it would have to be e ngaged somehow while it was running and become disengaged when svhut off. Anyway if the concensus is one way bearing you can puschase a new original at the sites below.


OEM PARTS SUPPLIERS


SEE ITEM 25

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results

partszilla.com

xtremeusa.com






http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results

[barnett468]

Hello


Does it still have good engine braking down to idle or does it go into freewheel mode at fairly high rpm when decelerating?.

[dougspcs]

Great video..I wish everyone demonstrated their problems that way..

x2 on the one way bearing..there is one on each side. Check with Bill(ATC007) but I'm pretty sure he was mentioning to another member to do both at the same time.

He's definitely the guy in the know..(among others of course, no offense guys).

[userj8670]

Hello


Does it still have good engine braking down to idle or does it go into freewheel mode at fairly high rpm when decelerating?.

Im not sure i really understand you - alot of the hills i go down (and believe me some are pretty nasty) I keep her in low gear and use both engine rpm and my brakes to maintain speed and that all seems to work fine if that answers your question. It doesnt do it all the time but lately its becoming more frequent.

[userj8670]

Great video..I wish everyone demonstrated their problems that way..

x2 on the one way bearing..there is one on each side. Check with Bill(ATC007) but I'm pretty sure he was mentioning to another member to do both at the same time.

He's definitely the guy in the know..(among others of course, no offense guys).

Doug-
Thanks for the appreciation. I figure posting a video is the best way so people can see and hear the problem instead of me posting a message stating i have a funny noise somewhere in my sx :lol: This one way bearing stuff- is it a fun job ?? How does this affect the starter (which seems to be spinning when shutting down)


Thanks!!!

[dougspcs]

Doug-
Thanks for the appreciation. I figure posting a video is the best way so people can see and hear the problem instead of me posting a message stating i have a funny noise somewhere in my sx :lol: This one way bearing stuff- is it a fun job ?? How does this affect the starter (which seems to be spinning when shutting down)


Thanks!!!

Well I've personally done the right side one..it's under the centrifugal clutch directly under the right side cover. The left side is under the flywheel.

Neither is a ball breaker to replace since the online manuals detail the disassembly process pretty well..

[Dirtcrasher]

Nice video. The wind down is quite long. It's normally the RH one way bearing in the centrifugal clutch, about 65$.

The journal that bearing is on needs to be measured to see if it's in spec or that will have to be addressed also...

[kb0nly]

Yep... RH one way bearing for sure. The long spindown is the giveaway there. The left one way bearing, aka electric start clutch, when it goes bad it doesn't spin down like that. Reason? The gear that rides in it is stationary, held by the non-spinning electric starter and reduction gears from the starter. Generally speaking, and now this is just my opinion and my experiences with the 250's and also the 200's with electric start, when that one way bearing goes bad it just won't grab when you run the electric starter, or it will squeal like a pig being kicked because its grabbing that non-spinning gear when it shouldnt.

I wouldn't worry about tearing into the left side and working on that, i would just replace the one way bearing on the right side, its not that bad of a teardown, takes some tools you might not have but thats about it. If you need the manual look below in my signature and get it!

BTW, damn fine job on the video, that was easy to diagnose with that well defined sound.

[kb0nly]

Doug-
Thanks for the appreciation. I figure posting a video is the best way so people can see and hear the problem instead of me posting a message stating i have a funny noise somewhere in my sx :lol: This one way bearing stuff- is it a fun job ?? How does this affect the starter (which seems to be spinning when shutting down)


Thanks!!!

Just reread your post and reviewed the video again... Doesn't appear to be the starter spinning, that whirr is the right side one way bearing most likely and the rattle like sound along with that is just everything settling, my 200 makes the exact same noise as did the 250ES i used to own.

However, if you want to rule this out!!! Remove the electric starter and toss some duct tape over the hole, run it a few times and shut it off, does the noise change? If the whirr is still there then definitely right side one way bearing. That other noise you hear is the flywheel rocking back and forth a few times after shutting off and it grabs the one way bearing for the electric start and racks the gears a little as it all settles to a stop. They all do that, its normal.

[userj8670]

Just curious but is this the same bearing that affects the kicker slipping and not grabbing on cold engine?

[dougspcs]

Just curious but is this the same bearing that affects the kicker slipping and not grabbing on cold engine?

Yup, that definitely clinches that it's the right side of the engine you should be concentrating on..

[userj8670]

Doug - thanks for the reply! I will add though - and you cant really tell in the vid, that the noise is def coming from the left side of the engine however. Does this still justify its the right bearing?

[dougspcs]

Doug - thanks for the reply! I will add though - and you cant really tell in the vid, that the noise is def coming from the left side of the engine however. Does this still justify its the right bearing?

I get that, but there is a one-way bearing on both sides..

If the right fails your kicker will slip, the left and the starter will slip.

Since you said the kicker was slipping that is what I presume to be your right. Why you hear noise on the left has me stumped also!!

[userj8670]

Gotcha - ya the starter isnt slipping what so ever. The kicker has slipped since i bought it however works perfect on a hot motor. The only problem like i stated was that winding down and ending with a clunk lol. I tried to convince my self it was the turbo unwinding but no avail

[jeffatc250r]

I have parts if you find that you need them.

[barnett468]

Hello userj8670



We understand your concern about making sure what bearing it is since if we are wrong it’s you who are out the time and cost of the bearing.




Gotcha - ya the starter isnt slipping what so ever.

The left bearing is good then.




The kicker has slipped since i bought it however works perfect on a hot motor.

That’s strange but the starter gear shouldn’t do that unless it’s hanging up somehow when it’s hot and releases when it’s warm but that would have nothing to do with the spinning noise.




The only problem like i stated was that winding down and ending with a clunk lol.

The only thing that can spin when the motor is shut off if the starter is eliminated as the cause of the problem is the centrifugal clutch outer.




I tried to convince my self it was the turbo unwinding but no avail

That’s ridiculous, everyone knows your bike never came with a turbo… it came with a BLOWER, lol.



To put yours and at least my mind at ease if you want, do the following.

1. Loosen nut on large black wire on starter then retighten slightly.
2. Start bike and let idle.
3. Remove nut and wire. DO NOT LET THE BARE END TOUCH GROUND. You can slip a piece of rubber tubing over it or duct tape etc. if necessary.
4. Hold throttle 1/3rd open.
5. Turn bike off while holding throttle.
6. No spinning noise means your starter never stops spinning until the key is turned off because it still has power for some reason.
7. Spinning noise means bad one way bearing on clutch side ONLY and/or centrifugal clutch outer and/or drive gear. See ALL parts in link below.


Measure clutch outer and drive gear as specified in manual below. If your clutch outer has heavy grooves where the shoes ride then I would replace it.

http://www.kb0nly.info/ATC/index.php?dir=ATC250SX%2F


Centrifugal clutch outer item 11, drive gear item 14, one way bearing item 25.

OEM HONDA PARTS FICHE AND NOS PARTS SUPPLIER

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results


When repaired refill with oil for "wet clutch" engines only. It is available at any motorcycle shop and many auto parts stores also.

[barnett468]

Unless clutch shoes are perfectly flat I would replace them if I replaced the clutch outer.

[userj8670]

GOnna tear in the 250sx and just wanted to make sure that Im on the right track here - In the attached image the part i need is #24 - correct??? And this will fix my problem with the winding AND the slipping kicker? Just making sure

171566

[dougspcs]

Part #25 dude..

Plus oil, filter and side cover gasket.

[barnett468]

GOnna tear in the 250sx and just wanted to make sure that Im on the right track here - In the attached image the part i need is #24 - correct??? And this will fix my problem with the winding AND the slipping kicker? Just making sure

171566


Hello


Number 25 not 24.




Either p/n will work. The 004 number is better.


ITEM 25, 56 EUROS = $92.00


91101ha0003


91101ha0004


http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results




91011HA003 $98.00

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-91101-HA0-003.html


91011HA004 $95.90

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-91101-HA0-004.html




Here’s an aftermarket one that’s made in Japan, should be ok but OEM is always best.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results

[userj8670]

What the difference between the 003 and 004? And why is it so expensive at the sites you posted? I thought it was 65?

[barnett468]

Hello




What the difference between the 003 and 004?

Hard to tell sometimes, however the 004 number in this case is possibly an improved version. Might also be from a different vendor.





And why is it so expensive at the sites you posted?

Am I really supposed to know that? My GUESS is that they are 2 of the very few companies that have this part in OBSOLETE OEM so they can pretty much charge whatever they want. If you have seem an OEM one at another site for less I suggest you simply buy it from there.





I thought it was 65?

I don't know why you thought that, sounds like you saw one advertised somewhere else for that price. I posted the prices in my post #22 above.




Here’s an aftermarket one that’s made in Japan, should be ok but OEM is always best. Price $59.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONE-WAY-CLUTCH-FITS-MANY-HONDA-ATVS-REPLACES-91101-HA0-004-MADE-JAPAN-/140978526852

[barnett468]

Hello




GOnna tear in the 250sx and just wanted to make sure that Im on the right track here - In the attached image the part i need is #24 - correct??? And this will fix my problem with the winding AND the slipping kicker?


NO WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED!






AND the slipping kicker?


Based upon your description my understanding is that, this is the consensus, however it is possible [but less likely] that the teeth on items 2 and 3 listed in the OEM parts fiche below are worn to a point where occasional slipping could occur. Other items in that fiche could be worn or broken as well contributing to the problem.


http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1985-usa_model967/partslist/E++15.html#results






Just making sure


We are sitting behind a computer screen trying to diagnose a problem typically based upon NOTHING more than the OP’s description. I suggest that since you are so concerned about the accuracy of mine and other member’s diagnosis, you simply take the vehicle to a qualified local shop and ask them to diagnose it for you.

[dougspcs]

GOnna tear in the 250sx and just wanted to make sure that Im on the right track here - In the attached image the part i need is #24 - correct??? And this will fix my problem with the winding AND the slipping kicker? Just making sure

171566

By the way, have an impact handy during your tear down to loosen the centrifugal clutch nut and you won't need any special tools to hold the clutch from rotating..you can hold it with your hand and hit it with the impact.

Otherwise, you'll need the special holder tool.

[userj8670]

Barnett - if you have nothing to say then dont post in my thread. I dont need to be told to take it to a dealer - i am more than capable of making that decision. If you cant give me the answer im looking for then dont post and let someone else who does know the answer post!

[userj8670]

By the way, have an impact handy during your tear down to loosen the centrifugal clutch nut and you won't need any special tools to hold the clutch from rotating..you can hold it with your hand and hit it with the impact.

Otherwise, you'll need the special holder tool.

Doug - thanks for the tip - already been insider her on this side to replace the clutch. But the more you do stuff the better you become at it!

[barnett468]

Barnett - if you have nothing to say then dont post in my thread. I dont need to be told to take it to a dealer - i am more than capable of making that decision. If you cant give me the answer im looking for then dont post and let someone else who does know the answer post!

I suggest if you have a problem with the accuracy or completeness of my answers below you simply file a complaint with a moderator along with the link to the post so that they can review it in it’s entirety.


Below is a chronology of events and documentation of the answers I had.


You had a problem you didn’t know the answer to so I gave you my best guess of "one way clutch bearing" as the cause [I also answered many other questions and supplied other information].


Dougspcs agreed.

Dirtcrsasher agreed.

Kbonly agreed.

I posted some links to where you could buy it.

I posted the OEM fiche showing the part.

I posted the item number in the fiche which was 25.

You asked if the item you needed was 24.

Dougspcs replied “part #25 dude.”

I replied 25 after Dougspcs’s post because I did not see his because I was typing while I was posting and they overlapped.

I asked if it had good engine braking down to close to 0 mph to help confirm the bearing is bad.

You said you did not know what "engine braking' is.

Then you say “Just curious but is this the same bearing that affects the kicker slipping and not grabbing on cold engine?”

Then Dougspcs says, “Yup, that definitely clinches that it's the right side of the engine you should be concentrating on.”

Then you said "Gotcha - ya the starter isnt slipping what so ever. The kicker has slipped since i bought it however works perfect on a hot motor. The only problem like i stated was that winding down and ending with a clunk lol.”

Then I agreed with Dougspcs.

Then I said ‘Unless clutch shoes are perfectly flat I would replace them if I replaced the clutch outer.” To save you from possibly having to do them again soon if they were bad.

Then I gave you the prices and links for the parts.

Then you asked me what the difference in the two suffix numbers, to which I said “the later number is likely either an improved version or a part from a different vendor.

Then you suggested you wanted us to GUARANTEE that mine, Dougspcs, Kbonly and Dirtcrashers diagnosis was correct.

Then I said there was a possibility of the kicker slip being due to worn parts and posted the OEM fiche and part numbers of the potentially worn parts.

Then I simply suggested you take it to a dealer if you don’t trust 4 peoples identical diagnosis.

Then you started beating me up for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON about the prices I posted which I had no control over.

Then you asked me why it was not $65.00 to which I said “I don’t know where you got that price?”.

Then I tried to help you with the cost by REPOSTING the link in my post located just above yours, to where you could buy an aftermarket one for $59.00

Then you say this

Barnett - if you have nothing to say then dont post in my thread. I dont need to be told to take it to a dealer - i am more than capable of making that decision. If you cant give me the answer im looking for then dont post and let someone else who does know the answer post!





Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx




Recently have noticed that when i am shutting down my SX it makes this spooling down noise and I am sure it cant be good. Please see the video. Any help is appreciated!


It is typically the one way bearing in the clutch. See item 25 in the link below. Yours also sounds like a starter motor but it would have to be engaged somehow while it was running and become disengaged when shut off. Anyway if the consensus is one way bearing you can puschase a new original at the sites below.


OEM PARTS SUPPLIERS


SEE ITEM 25

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results

partszilla.com

xtremeusa.com






http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results[/QUOTE]



Xxxxx




Hello Does it still have good engine braking down to idle or does it go into freewheel mode at fairly high rpm when decelerating?.



Xxxxx




x2 on the one way bearing.



Xxxxx




Im not sure i really understand you - alot of the hills i go down (and believe me some are pretty nasty) I keep her in low gear and use both engine rpm and my brakes to maintain speed and that all seems to work fine if that answers your question. It doesnt do it all the time but lately its becoming more frequent.



Xxxxx




The wind down is quite long. It's normally the RH one way bearing in the centrifugal clutch, about 65$.



Xxxxx




Yep... RH one way bearing for sure. The long spindown is the giveaway there. The left one way bearing, aka electric start clutch, when it goes bad it doesn't spin down like that. i would just replace the one way bearing on the right side,



Xxxxx




Just curious but is this the same bearing that affects the kicker slipping and not grabbing on cold engine?



xxxxx




Yup, that definitely clinches that it's the right side of the engine you should be concentrating on..



Xxxxx




Gotcha - ya the starter isnt slipping what so ever. The kicker has slipped since i bought it however works perfect on a hot motor. The only problem like i stated was that winding down and ending with a clunk lol.



Xxxxx




I have parts if you find that you need them.


Xxxxx


Hello userj8670



We understand your concern about making sure what bearing it is since if we are wrong it’s you who are out the time and cost of the bearing.




Originally Posted by userj8670

Gotcha - ya the starter isnt slipping what so ever.
The left bearing is good then.




Originally Posted by userj8670

The kicker has slipped since i bought it however works perfect on a hot motor.
That’s strange but the starter gear shouldn’t do that unless it’s hanging up somehow when it’s hot and releases when it’s warm but that would have nothing to do with the spinning noise.




Originally Posted by userj8670

The only problem like i stated was that winding down and ending with a clunk lol.
The only thing that can spin when the motor is shut off if the starter is eliminated as the cause of the problem is the centrifugal clutch outer.





To put yours and at least my mind at ease if you want, do the following.

1. Loosen nut on large black wire on starter then retighten slightly.
2. Start bike and let idle.
3. Remove nut and wire. DO NOT LET THE BARE END TOUCH GROUND. You can slip a piece of rubber tubing over it or duct tape etc. if necessary.
4. Hold throttle 1/3rd open.
5. Turn bike off while holding throttle.
6. No spinning noise means your starter never stops spinning until the key is turned off because it still has power for some reason.
7. Spinning noise means bad one way bearing on clutch side ONLY and/or centrifugal clutch outer and/or drive gear. See ALL parts in link below.


Measure clutch outer and drive gear as specified in manual below. If your clutch outer has heavy grooves where the shoes ride then I would replace it.

http://www.kb0nly.info/ATC/index.php?dir=ATC250SX%2F


Centrifugal clutch outer item 11, drive gear item 14, one way bearing item 25.

OEM HONDA PARTS FICHE AND NOS PARTS SUPPLIER

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-...6.html#results


When repaired refill with oil for "wet clutch" engines only. It is available at any motorcycle shop and many auto parts stores also.



Xxxxx




GOnna tear in the 250sx and just wanted to make sure that Im on the right track here - In the attached image the part i need is #24 - correct??? And this will fix my problem with the winding AND the slipping kicker? Just making sure

171566



Xxxxx




Part #25 dude.



Xxxxx




Hello


Number 25 not 24.


Either p/n will work. The 004 number is better.


ITEM 25, 56 EUROS = $92.00


91101ha0003


91101ha0004


http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results




91011HA003 $98.00

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-91101-HA0-003.html


91011HA004 $95.90

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-91101-HA0-004.html




Here’s an aftermarket one that’s made in Japan, should be ok but OEM is always best.

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-1986-usa_model7191/partslist/E++06.html#results



Xxxxx




What the difference between the 003 and 004? And why is it so expensive at the sites you posted? I thought it was 65?



Xxxxx



Hello




Originally Posted by userj8670

What the difference between the 003 and 004?
Hard to tell sometimes, however the 004 number in this case is possibly an improved version. Might also be from a different vendor.





Originally Posted by userj8670

And why is it so expensive at the sites you posted?
Am I really supposed to know that? My GUESS is that they are 2 of the very few companies that have this part in OBSOLETE OEM so they can pretty much charge whatever they want. If you have seem an OEM one at another site for less I suggest you simply buy it from there.





Originally Posted by userj8670

I thought it was 65?
I don't know why you thought that, sounds like you saw one advertised somewhere else for that price. I posted the prices in my post #22 above.




Here’s an aftermarket one that’s made in Japan, should be ok but OEM is always best. Price $59.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONE-WAY-CLUT...-/140978526852



Xxxxx



Hello




Originally Posted by userj8670

GOnna tear in the 250sx and just wanted to make sure that Im on the right track here - In the attached image the part i need is #24 - correct??? And this will fix my problem with the winding AND the slipping kicker?

NO WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED!






Originally Posted by userj8670

AND the slipping kicker?

Based upon your description my understanding is that, this is the consensus, however it is possible [but less likely] that the teeth on items 2 and 3 listed in the OEM parts fiche below are worn to a point where occasional slipping could occur. Other items in that fiche could be worn or broken as well contributing to the problem.


http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-atc250sx-...5.html#results






Originally Posted by userj8670

Just making sure

We are sitting behind a computer screen trying to diagnose a problem typically based upon NOTHING more than the OP’s description. I suggest that since you are so concerned about the accuracy of mine and other member’s diagnosis, you simply take the vehicle to a qualified local shop and ask them to diagnose it for you.



Xxxxx




Barnett - if you have nothing to say then dont post in my thread. I dont need to be told to take it to a dealer - i am more than capable of making that decision. If you cant give me the answer im looking for then dont post and let someone else who does know the answer post!

[dougspcs]

That's the Barnett we've all come to know and love!