Putting things in places they ought not to be (250R Hybrid Motor build)

[Billy Golightly]

I've always been fascinated with the hybrid engines...back before it was common to have pro-x cylinders, pumas, sabres, sphinx's (What strange names, anyways :lol:) the true custom build engines that used the Polaris sport 400L cylinders, the CR500 cylinder on 250R bottom end conversions, the Pilot 400 cylinders on 250R bottom ends, and the Rotax topend conversions were all relatively popular. These sorts of builds intrigued me, mostly because they were just so out there in terms of creativity and design. I think we can all admit we kind of like oddball junk, obviously.

So in 2010 I started collecting parts for a Rotax (400cc) conversion. I gathered up some damaged 250r cases for relatively no money ($15-$20 here and there, most of them beyond repairing, some not). I bought a Ski-Doo MXZ800 cylinder that needed replating, and a stock head that had been damaged in engine failure. I think I had about $120 in both of those parts with shipping. I got the cylinder and sized it up with the stock 250R cylinder,

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The cylinder, the cases, and the head, pretty much before any work had been done.



After that, I had my dad turn some aluminum pieces on the south bend to thread into the existing 250R stud holes since they weren't anywhere near going to match up. Dad and I had talked about a sort of fixture to bolt the cases to (Basically, an engine stand) to be able to work on them in the mill. I had cut a piece of 3/4in plate one day and other than that, stuff had just been laying there. I got to looking at it, and frankly, I was kind of intimidated. There was going to need to be A LOT of machine work done, something that admittedly is not my strong point with my skills or antiquated equipment. And there were a lot variables involved. After that, the stuff laid and kicked around my shop for 3 years. One thing or another came up. I was building swingarms in the little spare time I did have, work was making me go batty, life in general, etc....Stuff just got piled up, and I sort of forgot about it.

Fast forward about a month ago, I seen an ad on Craigslist for a bench top bead blasting cabinet for $40 locally. Been wanting one for years and never had one, figured I'd go pick it up. After I got the thing home and replaced the glass in it (~$12 at Lowes, and you can actually see through it now) I just about tripped over the cases I had originally set out to do this with, and I kind of just threw them in the bead blasting cabinet to experiment with. Kept having to dick around with air pressure levels, clogging and unclogging the blast nozzle, you get the idea. But, the cases ended up cleaning up really nicely. Then I got to looking at them and I was like, "You know what, this might be way out of my league on the machining side of things, but I don't give a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro, I'm gonna try and make this work". Luckily I have a whole other complete 250R motor sitting in a tote, so these cases are basically my trial run. If they end up being usable, all the better, but I didn't want my first attempt to be on a good usable set of cases.

I tend to over complicate things sometimes, and that’s not always a real productive trait. If anyone is familiar with Nikola Tesla, in his autobiography, he talks about how for his first alternating current motor, he designed the entire thing (and I mean, the entire thing) in his head before physically building it. He ran through every single machine part, and actions required to build and manufacture those parts, the assembly, and subsequently running it (for months, he said), analyzing expected wear and part failures, all using his imagination and mind before the first work tool was ever picked up. Fascinating, really. A lot of times, I try and do that, and well its easy to get wrapped up in thinking about something and not just actually DOING something. Tesla could pull that sort of thing off, I try, but can’t. And so with that realization, it pretty much all finally began... Sometimes you gotta just do trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro and cross that bridge when you come to it.


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This was setup to just do a rough cut on the threaded in pieces to go where the old studs were, no serious machining.



First thing was to finish the fixture/engine stand thing. It looks a little crude in person, but its made with ¾ plate and 3/4in square bar stock that bolts to the plate, and then the bottom engine mount tabs are welded to that, so you can shim it pretty much however you want basically to level the top up. After quite a bit of time studying and looking at things again, I decided the next thing I needed to do is bore the cases so the sleeve of the new cylinder would fit down in there. From there I could square up the cylinder, see where I needed to add weld around the base gasket surface, see where my stud holes would fall at, all that jazz. Originally, I was going to just use the digital read out on the one new(er) mill I have to locate the center, but after turning it on the first time in a few years, it didn't work, and I couldn't seem to make it come on, so, went back to sort of the old-fashioned and rednecky way of making a centering tool. Basically, a chunk of billet that would fit in the quill of the milling machine, and fit down into the center cases with exacting tolerances. After that, the table could be locked down, the centering tool swapped out, and put in the boring bar. Easy. (Sort of...) Making this piece ended up being a little trickier than I thought, because I had not considered the sides of the cases where the transfer ramps are making it not really a round area. So basically, we had to turn a piece to fit there, and then I had to mill the sides off to fit down inside. It ended up looking sort of like a funky piston.

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While dad was working on making the centering tool, I took the OEM cylinder head and marked it out, and cut it in half on the Bandsaw. You’ll see it with the big gaping hole directly into the water jacket in a few pictures below. I later on welded it up, but I have yet to go ahead and make a water spigot location for it. That'll be coming later on.

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After the centering tool was finished, I went over to the good mill (The one in my shop I use for tube notching is just too wore out for about anything but that) and setup the cases in the stand dad made, and basically locked it down with the setup blocks. Now, leveling this thing in and centering it up in the manner I did is for sure not the recommended manner. I’ve never been formally trained as a machinist and neither has dad, so our methods are not technically correct or entirely accurate all the time. Re-use my directions and steps at your own risk, I’m probably doing it wrong and just haven’t figured it out yet.

With that being said, I put in our centering tool, dropped it down into the cases. The tool was made with a lip on the top of it that basically allowed it to bottom out on the top of the gasket surface. What I did from there is basically run a feeler gauge between the edge of the lip and the top of base gasket surface and kept adjusting things till I had about .003 difference from one side to the other and then gave up. And after reflecting on this, I decided that was most likely the difference from my cases halves not having originally been a machined set. So, after that, the boring bar went in, measured and set the depth I needed to go, and kept taking a little bit at a time. It appeared to be tracking really square, didn’t look like one side was cutting off more than the other anywhere, so I took that as a good sign. By the time I stopped, the area was razor thin until I had cut through entirely into the open areas in the case casting.

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The cylinder was a very good snug fit, in fact I was able to just get started and then I took the boring bar out and sort of made an arbor press out of the mill and gently pressed the cylinder on down in till it bottomed out on the remainder of the fill ins for the old studs. Laid the head down on top of it, and posed for a photo!

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So, after that, got to do some real sizing up of the cylinder on the cases and what areas needed welding. The rotax cylinder, the transfer tunnels on the sides are actually narrower and skinnier than a 250R. This is a by-product of it being designed and made for a twin cylinder, for sure. So, sort of surprisingly, the most welding needed to be done on the inside of the existing base gasket surface. A little bit on the outsides to help square it up. If your familiar with the 250Rs, their base gasket has a more rounded elliptical shaped pattern on the bottom. The rotax one, it is damn near square.

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While I was in the process of welding on the cases I had a nice electrical explosion in the shop (no injuries, thankfully) but other than that, the cases welded fairly well and turned out pretty nice. We were able to patch up the line enough for the welder to tie in and finish, but the line running to the mill is still offline. It had been a while since I did some serious aluminum welding so I was pretty happy with the success of it. Looking back at it, now that I know the areas that need the welding well enough, I wouldn’t need to bore the cases first. I’d do the welding, then do the boring/surfacing/studs all in one machine action without having to remove from the mill and re-setup. But for this initial run through, I had to basically do it this way, to figure out how to do it better. I had a base gasket, but it was kinda hard to use that by itself and really get a good idea of where exactly stuff was going to fall at without just basically building up everywhere with weld…

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The above pictures are the 95% finished view. After the welding was totally completed, I moved onto filling in the casting pockets with an aluminum putty, since they weren’t feasible to weld due to the depth. More on that in the foot notes at the end.

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It ain’t pretty, here, but it’ll look a lot better once it gets machined and surfaced off. Your probably wondering what that extra weld up in the front is from. Well, that’s a bit of a story in and of itself, the foot notes at end on that also. Right now I'm kind of at a stand still till the 220v line to the mill gets back up and running, at which point I'll set everything back up, and work on surfacing the top off completely level, and then locating/drilling/tapping the stud holes. I'm hoping over the weekend I'll get some time to do that and get the top machined down. I will post another update soon.




Foot Notes:

Three things I’ve ran into so far that you should know about and consider if you attempt this.

#1, the pockets in the top of the cases are going to have to be filled. For gasket surface area, and also for the exhaust side cylinder studs. The most perfect, ideal solution, would be a similarly casted aluminum blank to drop in and weld/build up a little on the top and be done. In the future, I might try that. On this one, I opted for Devcon Aluminum expoxy putty, type F. I did a lot of reading and research, and barring their titanium version that you can use to build up hydraulic rams and shafting with, this is about the next best thing to being aluminum itself. I just mixed the stuff up, filled in those pockets, put some extra on top so it could be machined off back with the rest of the base gasket surface when ready. It cost me about $55 for a 1 lb container, and that would have probably done atleast 2, probably 3 sets of cases.

#2, the back intake side studs, look very carefully where they end up falling at. You have to actually weld under and IN the cases below the gasket surface because of how the casting is shaped, in addition to the top. For example, you’d fill in the top, and then as you’re drilling the location for your new stud, pop into a pocket with no material say about a ½ in further down below. That’d be no fun at all remedying.

#3, unlike the 250Rs, the rotax cylinder flows water completely through it, top to bottom. The 250R cylinder basically only circulates around the top half, and then goes out the neck back above the intake. The Rotax cylinder, goes all the way down to the bottom. As it was originally equipped, it ran the full height, down through the bottom of it into a water cavity in the crankcase where the actual water pump is on the MXZ800 snow mobiles. In my, shall we say, ignorance, I didn’t realize this till I was sort of in a pickle. The holes are relatively small, 5/16ths diameter at best. But I had just noticed and realized this while I was doing the final welding and prep before I start pouring the epoxy to fill in the pocketed areas. So I decided to add weld and build up that area too. Then as I was welding it, I realized, that inevitably, I was going to have a gap at the case seams, unless I was going to split the cases and weld along the edge, and then subsequently surface that center gasket area off too…which, I didn’t particularly like the thought of, but might ultimately end up having to do. My current school of thought is to just plug the cylinder so that water doesn’t get down that far, we’ll see.

[Billy Golightly]

Main details / follow up to the ongoing project below:



9/15/13 Details of case base gasket area surfacing, stud drilling and tapping: http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/43260-Rotax-cylinder-builds?p=535424#post535424
9/15/13 Setting the shell in a frame, checking spark plug clearances, potential exhaust fitment, etc. http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/43260-Rotax-cylinder-builds?p=535425#post535425
9/24/13 Small update on intake and exhaust, RAVE valve purchase, rambling on test fitting piston/confirming paralellness to crank on cylinder surface before going any further. http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/161287-Putting-things-in-places-they-ought-not-to-be-(250R-Hybrid-Motor-build)?p=1255927#post1255927
12/22/13 Nice little YouTube video update showing my custom spacer plate, gaskets, intake, reed cage, exhaust flange, shift shaft area case repair, etc. About 7 minutes in length. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaiYLQ_9_sI
1/14/14 Surfaced and worked on my center case gasket sealing surfaces. Had to do a little bit of welding to correct a crack and build up another area that was low, probably due to a previous crank/rod failure that damaged the cases. http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/161287-Putting-things-in-places-they-ought-not-to-be-(250R-Hybrid-Motor-build)?p=1278972#post1278972
2/4/14 Made a new case leveling and indicating tool. http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/161287-Putting-things-in-places-they-ought-not-to-be-(250R-Hybrid-Motor-build)?p=1285386#post1285386
2/11/14 Video of me re-surfacing and leveling the top of the cases in the mill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8CHfHhdeNw
3/2/14 Various work regarding adding the water spigot mounts to the head and the cylinder. Also welded up the plug hole in the head to be able to make a new one at an angle to clear the frame. http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/161287-Putting-things-in-places-they-ought-not-to-be-(250R-Hybrid-Motor-build)?p=1292795#post1292795
3/2/14Completed the spigot welding on the head and cylinder. Re-drilled, and tapped and fitted in an angled spark plug. Drilled and tapped new oil drain hole. Also machined the shift shaft seal area that previously had needed repair.http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/161287-Putting-things-in-places-they-ought-not-to-be-(250R-Hybrid-Motor-build)?p=1294752#post1294752
4/12/14 Pipe building frustrations and experimentations; http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/161287-Putting-things-in-places-they-ought-not-to-be-(250R-Hybrid-Motor-build)?p=1302783#post1302783
4/13/14 Pipe Building realization, but no fix quite yet; http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/161287-Putting-things-in-places-they-ought-not-to-be-(250R-Hybrid-Motor-build)?p=1302930#post1302930



There are of course other posts throughout the thread that contain conversation and information, but these are the high points for you.

[C.J]

Wicked. Simply wicked. Amazing write up, as well as thoughting through out. I look at things the same way,, even if I'm not doing it the "correct" way so long as the end result works/is right is what matters. This is really cool watching/reading. I also build/run/break stuff in my head lol, the docs say I'm crazy though LOL.

Will definitely be following this thread closely to learn.

Thank you very much for the post!!!

[Rigaman]

This is out of control!! I am speechless. I dont know what to say. Amazing!

[volfan537240]

Subscribed....

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Being a Rotax fan and someone who has owned several 800cc Ski-Doos in triple and twin cylinder (including an MXZ800) this has my full attention!

I have heard of using the 583 top ends on R's... Never have I seen a Series III Rotax used on one!

That's going to be 380cc on a stock crank! :D

Plan to stroke the crank???

[atc007]

WOW. SPEECHLESS. WOW!! You're gonna need some very serious chain and sprockets :)

[Dirtcrasher]

Top Notch stuff and the balls to try it Billy!! :cool:

[Billy Golightly]

Being a Rotax fan and someone who has owned several 800cc Ski-Doos in triple and twin cylinder (including an MXZ800) this has my full attention!

I have heard of using the 583 top ends on R's... Never have I seen a Series III Rotax used on one!

That's going to be 380cc on a stock crank! :D

Plan to stroke the crank???

With a +4 crank and a certain rod/piston combination that I believe to be correct but have not verified yet, I should be able to achieve exactly the right deck heights and port timings as the cylinder is stock. Thats the plan, but it could change :)

[RIDE-RED 250r]

With a +4 crank and a certain rod/piston combination that I believe to be correct but have not verified yet, I should be able to achieve exactly the right deck heights and port timings as the cylinder is stock. Thats the plan, but it could change :)

That's exactly what I was thinking. MXZ 800 stroke being 75.7mm I would think it would get you real close with a +4 crank.

Man, that thing is going to run! Those engines bone stock were putting out about 135hp. I would guess that due to the way sleds run, they are ported for more mid-top as compared to a stock R. When you pin the throttle from a dead stop, they spool right up to about 7800-8000 rpm depending on clutching setup. As the clutches shift out, the machine climbs in speed.


I can't get over the huge intake on the sled engine compared to the R. I was just rummaging through a box of my old sled parts the other day and came across my old OEM MXZ800 reed cages... Those things are massive!

[Billy Golightly]

That's exactly what I was thinking. MXZ 800 stroke being 75.7mm I would think it would get you real close with a +4 crank.

Man, that thing is going to run! Those engines bone stock were putting out about 135hp. I would guess that due to the way sleds run, they are ported for more mid-top as compared to a stock R. When you pin the throttle from a dead stop, they spool right up to about 7800-8000 rpm depending on clutching setup. As the clutches shift out, the machine climbs in speed.


I can't get over the huge intake on the sled engine compared to the R. I was just rummaging through a box of my old sled parts the other day and came across my old OEM MXZ800 reed cages... Those things are massive!

Yeah the intake is just huge compared to stock. Do you still need that reedcage? I could use it if not :)

As silly as it sounds, I figure if it runs atleast as good as a well tuned 250r motor ill be happy because I can tweak and change things up from there. If it's worse, we'll them this would be a failure :lol:

[250rRoostmaster]

Good work so far!! Love old school mods!!

[atc007]

Yeah the intake is just huge compared to stock. Do you still need that reedcage? I could use it if not :)

As silly as it sounds, I figure if it runs atleast as good as a well tuned 250r motor ill be happy because I can tweak and change things up from there. If it's worse, we'll them this would be a failure :lol:

If you could find a V force cage better yet.. As if it will need MORE power! I could not agree more with choosing the Rotax 800. They are one of my absolute all time favorite engines. Bar none. What a ton of work you are putting into this..........

[Billy Golightly]

I'm really looking forward to building the pipe :)

[JasonB]

in for updates! very neat so far, i like what youre doing here

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Billy, I have a pair of OEM reedcages. They are a 1 piece design as apposed to what we are used to with our R's. Meaning the reedcage itself is laminated to the intake boot. The reason I replaced them with VF-3's a while back was because one of the reedcages was de-laminating (separating) from the intake boot. If I recall, one cage was still in good shape and useable, at least as of when I put them in a box.

Either way, you are welcome to have one or both if you like. I'll run out and check on the condition of them to make sure I have one that would be in good shape and safe to use. I'll let you know what I find. :)

[Billy Golightly]

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A little teaser until I can do a proper write up here soon.

[Billy Golightly]

Full update/write up on the base gasket surface machining, drilling and tapping the cylinder stud/bolt holes, and setting it in a frame, here:

http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/43260-Rotax-cylinder-builds?p=535424#post535424

And also here:

http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/43260-Rotax-cylinder-builds?p=535425#post535425

Let me know your thoughts!

[Billy Golightly]

Billy, I have a pair of OEM reedcages. They are a 1 piece design as apposed to what we are used to with our R's. Meaning the reedcage itself is laminated to the intake boot. The reason I replaced them with VF-3's a while back was because one of the reedcages was de-laminating (separating) from the intake boot. If I recall, one cage was still in good shape and useable, at least as of when I put them in a box.

Either way, you are welcome to have one or both if you like. I'll run out and check on the condition of them to make sure I have one that would be in good shape and safe to use. I'll let you know what I find. :)

That one that is seperating might be just what I need actually, as the angle of the oem intake boots from what I've seen is too straight forward anyways. I'm going to have to make something probably similar to the cast aluminum boyesen rad valves with the round rubber boot on the end. Are the cages aluminum, or what are they made out of?

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I was away from home all day today so I did not get an opportunity to go pull the reedcages out of the box and snap some pics.

Yes, you are right about the intake boot angle. They are straight on, no angle to them.

I will get some pics tomorrow and send them your way. If you would rather I not post pics here in this thread, PM me an email address and I'll send pics there.

Spark plug clearance: First, are you doing this on an '85 or '86 chassis? If '86, there is a little more clearance for the spark plug to begin with. Pantera1975 has an '86 with an ESR top end with the straight sparkplug hole. He doesn't have alot of trouble using the typical NGK cap. But me and my '85 with an ESR top end, there is less clearance between the spark plug and frame brace. I ended up using a small, basic weedeater plug cap. It's the kind that has the little spring with the hook on the tail to press into the plug wire. It is small enough and flexible enough that I can run standard NGK plugs with no issue. And surpisingly, that little cap has not given me a bit of trouble.

All of that aside, both of our engines are stock stroke. This setup being +4 stroke, and if the head is a bit thicker is putting you in a bit more of a pickle. But if you have clearance enough to thread a spark plug in and out, one of those little caps like I use should be very workable.

Are there going to be any clearance issues with the RAVE valve??

Just a suggestion and a greenhorns guess on port timing/deck height: .25mm equals .010". Running a 250r +4 crank is only going to have your port timing .3mm low. Plus, the piston might be coming too high and possibly a hair out of the cylinder for a possbile compression issue. Maybe just running 2 base gaskets would bring you right in where you need to be?? Running thicker spacer plates would raise the port timing more and give you a bit more top end (not that you don't already know that)... If it were me and I was looking for more low-mid I might try and see if simply re-chambering the head would suffice, so long as the piston doesn't protrude out of the cylinder??

IDK, just some thoughts and ideas to bounce off ya.... I think this build has some real potential to be some real competition for some of those bigger "cat" cylinders..... Those sled engines make some serious HP right out of the box.

[Billy Golightly]

Na that'd be fine, feel free to post em up here!

[Jason Hall]

What crank will you use? The Hot Rod +4mm has a long connecting rod. You Might need to make a spacer plate? Or does the piston you chose have the correct Deck height for the added rod length? Make sure to check rod clearance with the stroker at the top of the cases. Every long Rod stroker I have built needed the cases relieved in the area where you added material in the front.

Also, a +4 stroke crank is really +2mm at the rod pin.. So plus 2mm up, and + 2mm down = 4mm.

[Billy Golightly]

The frame I wanted to put this in is an '85. I suppose I *could* make an angled plug head...hadn't really thought about that. The plug wont thread in, it just barely catches on the very end. With just the one bottom motor mount bolt through I could wiggle it around enough to get it in and out, but that'd be a pain in the ass.

No idea on the RAVE valve yet, I might just have to cap it off, but I'd like to run it. The area that it'll have to go is tight anyways with the larger CR250 CDI box on the CR250 ignitions that I like to run, I can probably arrange it somewhere else if I need to make room.

I'm told that the combination of the +4mm stroker crank, a KTM rod (An extra 5mm longer than the long 250R rod if I remember, I have the part # saved) and the use of an 82mm odyssey piston gives you the right heights and timing. My deck height is lower than stock though, so I'll probably have to use a spacer plate anyways, which I'm OK with. I'd rather go the other direction if I can make it work without a spacer plate to keep the timing lower (I read somewhere these are like 192 degrees exhaust stock) and I'm not building a drag engine. I want a very all-around engine I can run crappy ass pump gas through and still have fun and kick butt with.

Basically I'm going to save the internal stuff (crank, rod, piston) until I finish working out the other stuff as thats about 500+ bux worth of parts that I don't want to buy until I know I wont have any other significant hang ups elsewhere. Thats my train of thought anyways :)

[ATC-Eric]

Good deal Billy, cant wait to see this done!

[Dave8338]

CRAZY AWESOME ! ! ! !

I love "things where you wouldn't/shouldn't expect to see them" projects. Keeps people guessing. :D

[Jason Hall]

If the power valve works good, you might not have to worry to much about the timing being high.

I have a little story about my experiance with a KTM 85 power valve cylinder. Anyone that has rode a Ktm 2 stroke knows that their power valves WORK!! KTM's usually make Fantastic low end power. So anyway, I bought a complete KTM 85sx that was blown up. The top of the exhaust port was HAMMERED BIGTIME.. The nicasil was trashed from the top edge of the exhaust port and up about an 1/8-3/16 of an inch lol. A new cylinder was Well over 500$ I figured what the hell, and i ground the top of the port until I had good material. The power valve fit very close to the piston, so I thought maybe it will run ok. I figured it was worth a try. When I first attempted to start the bike it had Very little compression as I would have figured, because i ground out 3/16 of a inch of its chance to make compression lol. I worried it would just scream and not have any low end power. Much to my surprise,, it had GLOBS of low end torque, and ran like a raped ape.. So if the rave valve works like the KTM you might not have to worry at all. Sorry for the book..

[Billy Golightly]

Thats my plan but no warranties expressed, implied or otherwise guaranteed as to the fact that it will run until such time it actually does....

:lol:

[RIDE-RED 250r]

The Rotax RAVE valves have a stellar reputation for working very well with just using quality oil and a little bit of periodic maintenance. It's a remarkably simple design that works on exhaust pressure, no finicky linkages to keep in adjustment or anything like that. They have been doing exhaust valves a long time compared to most.. ;)

Jason: thanks for the reminder on the stroke issue... I suffer from swiss-cheese-brain sometimes! :)

Billy: Turns out, one of my reedcages actually has the boot completely removed. The other is somewhat intact with the exception of the delamination issue. (see pics below) You can see how they are a 1 piece design. FYI: V-Force and Boyesen use the conventional 2-piece design which makes it much more cost effective to address cracking carb boots than these do.
You are welcome to one or both, whichever your pleasure. I have no use for them any more as I don't have any sleds at the moment. If you want them, PM me your address and I'll clean them up and get them on their way to you.

[Billy Golightly]

I’m sure you’ll get it to run and after that you can fulfill my fantasy of mating up ten CR500 cylinders to a hand made double crankshaft V10 crankcase and stuffing it into a Ford Pinto!

:w00t: Now we're talking! I've always wanted to get a 300hp outboard motor with expansion chambers in to a Geo Metro

[Billy Golightly]

The Rotax RAVE valves have a stellar reputation for working very well with just using quality oil and a little bit of periodic maintenance. It's a remarkably simple design that works on exhaust pressure, no finicky linkages to keep in adjustment or anything like that. They have been doing exhaust valves a long time compared to most.. ;)

Jason: thanks for the reminder on the stroke issue... I suffer from swiss-cheese-brain sometimes! :)

Billy: Turns out, one of my reedcages actually has the boot completely removed. The other is somewhat intact with the exception of the delamination issue. (see pics below) You can see how they are a 1 piece design. FYI: V-Force and Boyesen use the conventional 2-piece design which makes it much more cost effective to address cracking carb boots than these do.
You are welcome to one or both, whichever your pleasure. I have no use for them any more as I don't have any sleds at the moment. If you want them, PM me your address and I'll clean them up and get them on their way to you.

PM incoming.

I think I have an idea on how to fix this intake issue already :)

[Billy Golightly]

Small update;

Found a RAVE valve on ebay for like $35 shipped, so thats on the way. Got an OEM intake from RIDE-RED-250R (Thanks again man) that I'm sizing up. I've been pretty tied up the past 2 weeks and have'nt gotten to do much more on this. I was going to initially hold off on buying the crank/rod/piston stuff but I'm reconsidering that and thinking about going ahead and getting that stuff to see how things are going to need to be setup before I do a whole lot more work on it as far as coolant lines, intake, exhaust, etc. It all looks do-able, just going to take some thought and planning on it. The exhaust flange is going to need to have a little angle on it from the looks of things to make it under the wish-bone area.

I'm a little bit concerned that my machining may not have left me with a surface exactly parallel to the crankshaft (Although I feel like I did a pretty good job of it) I'd hate to do everything else and find out that I had goobered up there on the most important part. I had an idea to basically assemble the thing without a cylinder head, and hook it up to a small electric motor and see how it wore (if any) for a little bit before I went much further on it, which might be a good idea considering all the welding/potential warping and such that has been done to this thing.

So I guess right now, that is the direction I'm leaning, I will go ahead and get an 82mm FL350 piston ordered, possibly use a stock crank to try things out before I get the +4mm and stuff.

[Billy Golightly]

No idea on the crank case volumes, never seen one of these sled motors in person. I'm assuming they would be pretty similar. That could be increased or decreased with the spacer plate.


Very good idea on the crank parallel idea..wish I would have thought of that earlier now instead of setting it up the way I did. I do have a piston on the way I can setup with a stock crankshaft to see how far I'm off, so I guess I'll go from there if I have it all fubar :lol:

[oscarmayer]

awesome work billy!

[Billy Golightly]

My FL350 piston came in yesterday. Hopefully in a day or two I can get it on a crank and in the cases with a degree wheel and we can really see where things are at on this :)

[Dave8338]

Looking forward to what you'll find.

[oscarmayer]

any updates?

[Billy Golightly]

A few minor ones. I'm hoping to get some real stuff done over the weekend and post a good heavy update then.

[Billy Golightly]

Update, long overdue.

Long story short, I got the crank in one side of the case, did some degree checking (got pretty darn close with a 1/8in spacer plate) and found out that basically, with the crankshaft in, I couldn't get my cases to bolt up. Somehow, even though i was using the dowel pins and had several case bolts holding the cases together when I welded and machined everything, whenever I put the bearings and crank in, things go out of alignment, pretty significantly. Inititially I was thinking that perhaps I had a bearing pressed in the cases crooked or something, but no such luck....

So, basically, this is the end of the road for those cases, and I get to start on attempt #2 soon :D


This time, I'm going to take the idea that idea El Camexican had on the machined shaft to mimic the crankshaft, and I will use that in the cases when I do all my intitial welding, and the surfacing of the top as well. I'm gonna be buying a short (~1ft) length of hex stock here soon and either machining it myself to crank dimensions, or I might go and get that CNC'ed just for peace of mind in accuracy.

I might still be able to salvage these I've already worked on, but that would entail re-machining the deck height and probably re-doing my studs, which since it has already been epoxied in around, might be a bit on the tricky side.

Work has been pretty much keeping me busy lately so I haven't gotten to do as much as I would like, but I did take a little video you guys might enjoy before I discovered that the second half of the case didn't fit up right, where I pretty much run through and cycle things through with the cylinder/crank/rod/piston hooked into one half.

It uploading on Youtube and I'll post the link here when its finished.

[Dirtcrasher]

That's weird, having it all bolted together with dowel pins and such. I know you indicated it all in so I would imagine you got it pretty dead nuts.

Work in progress, just look at what you learned already!

It can only improve!! :D

[Billy Golightly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaiYLQ_9_sI


Here is the video I took of when I first got everything bolted together on one half before I realized the other half didn't fit up right...

[Billy Golightly]

I did pre-heat the cased before too...but I guess I'll try doing a bit more of it next go-around :)

[LastFoolerInVA]

This thread is a great read... It makes you think how much creativity & resourcefulness those old-school racers had...I mean I know Billy doesn't build custom race engines for a living, but this ain't the first time he's picked up a welder either... and well, to get this far shows a lot to his ability but... I just can't imagine what it was like 20-30 years ago when atv/atc racing was just beginning trying to come up with this kind of modification...cool stuff.... I was really hoping it would work.. I would love to see a monster like this screaming down the track at Haspin next year...

[Billy Golightly]

I'm the same way, I think back when these guys were first doing these conversions and how outside the box they had to get. And you can certainly go even further back in different type of motor sports. Burn Munro that built "The Worlds Fastest Indian" made sleeves out of sewer pipes, hammered connecting rods out from truck axles, casted his own pistons, filed his own camshafts, and he broke several records at the Bonneville salt flats. There isn't much else cooler to me than stuff like that. If your interested in stuff like that, you should read up on him sometime. There is a movie they did a few years ago with Anthony Hopkins playing him that has the documentary with the real Burt Munro on it also. The documentary is awesome, the movie is pretty good too.

I'll get this thing figured out one way or another, just going to take a little bit longer.

[oscarmayer]

try heating the cases to like 200-250 degrees. that should stop them from warping when cooled. also if the plate your using is too much thicker than the cases, it can cool different rates causing the cases to warp because of that. the way to combat that is to heat to like mentioned 250 or so weld some, heat again, weld more and repeat. when done, put int he oven and turn oven down 25* at a time till you eventually get to 100-150* then you should be ok to let air cool.

[atc500x]

Nice work,you talk in the first post about a cr500 cylinder swap,do you have picture somewhere of this setup? I have 5 cr500 topend and a set of case to try something.... :)

[Billy Golightly]

Over due update, I've completed the following;

Custom Intake
Custom Exhaust Flange
Custom spacer plate
Custom base gaskets

I am few other misc gaskets away from having what I need to finally get this thing together enough to do a leak down test. Thats when it'll get interesting :)

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Thanks for the update Billy! I was just wondering yesterday how things were progressing on this project.

:beer

[Billy Golightly]

Pretty much after I know I can seal the thing air tight and make it hold a vacuum, I'll be onto making coolant routes from the head and the cylinder both to fit the 250R configuration...and then...assembly....?! :D


Doesn't sound like much but in practicality it'll be a lot of work to get there I'm sure.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Actually, to just about anyone who has put a wrench to anything mechanical, we can very much appreciate the planning, trial/error, and labor involved in a build like this. I wish I had the machinery and knowledge to do the things you are doing! I do all my own tear-down and rebuilding, but all machine work I need done is outsourced. I can measure with calipers and micrometers to double check work, but that's about it!

Carry on Sir! :beer

[Larry T Moore]

and I thought I was cool when I used 86 200x motor mounts to turn the handle around on my pushmower so I could pull it behind my 250sx..but what yer doing is cool!!

[bigdaddyvw185]

awesome project! i envy your ability and willingness to attempt such a monumental project!. In for updates and best of luck with the rest of the build!

[90guy]

Man O man! That thing will be sick!

[Billy Golightly]

Thanks for all the replies and kind words. Its got some hairy points, but really, anyone with an old knee type Bridgeport mill could be doing just as good and probably even better than I am. You just have to be dumb enough to try it is the key :)

[Dirtcrasher]

Soon to follow...... A laydown version for an ATC70 :lol:

Great, great work Billy, you are certainly self motivated.

Some people look at things that are 1/4" off and think "no way, will that fit, I'll have to rebuild mine :(". Heck, there only holes and spacers right?? :lol:

As you say, think OUTSIDE the box!!

[Billy Golightly]

Soon to follow...... A laydown version for an ATC70 :lol:

Great, great work Billy, you are certainly self motivated.

Some people look at things that are 1/4" off and think "no way, will that fit, I'll have to rebuild mine :(". Heck, there only holes and spacers right?? :lol:

As you say, think OUTSIDE the box!!


:lol: It does kill me when I see some of these scored up pistons and bores with a little aluminum melted on them and people buy and replace all that stuff.

Buff off the high spots on the piston, rub a little muratic on the cylinder walls the clean off the melted aluminum, use a pick to clean out the ring grooves, and put the mofo back together!

[oscarmayer]

^ hahahaha
easier said than done sir! ;) been there too man! i used to have a 90cc with a custom 110cc bigbore kit and man when i had to redo the rings, i had to find some to fit from 2 different piston makers from different bikes. but hey ya do what ya gotta do right?

[Billy Golightly]

Here is a video update for ya'll;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgWbcBo4ZSM

Make sure to select HD quality for the footage. I should be able to begin doing leak down testing within the next week or so. I'm waiting on just a few more gaskets

[torker]

Saw the video, great progress man. Looking forward to this one.
Merry X-mas to you all.

TORKER.

[Billy Golightly]

Thank you, Merry Christmas to you too

[beets442]

Looks great! Hope everything goes well. I'm just as jealous as these other guys,wish I had the time.
Would like to know what your compression is and cant wait to see that pipe too.
There are some guys on the triples website that custom make pipes and have cone pieces for sale.
http://kawi2strokes.com/forum/index.php
Good luck

[RIDE-RED 250r]

2 of my favorite engines working together, love it!

That Rotax top look like a behemoth sitting on the R bottom end. Nice work Sir!

I can't wait to see/hear this thing run. :D

[Billy Golightly]

Coming along real nice, looking forward to seeing a video of it running. Have you picked a carb for it yet?

Being from Western Canada it sounds so weird to hear you say “Ski doo” We say it “skdo” No time to pronounce the “i” and that extra “o” and say both words separately, we've got to speak fast and get back to the Molsons before they freeze over eh.

I have been told I do have a bit of a funny accent...:lol:

I'll probably just run the regular 39mm pwk. If the thing ends up being too peaky in the upper RPM range for me I might neck it back down with a 35mm even.

[whitetail hunter]

any up dates? how's your project coming along

[oscarmayer]

:lol::lol::lol:
"when in doubt, get a bigger hammer." a Billy? hahaha sorry I saw that hammer next to it in the video and I laughed.

looking good man really, cannot wait to see the end results.

[Billy Golightly]

My center cases are having some issues on their mating surfaces in the crank case. Pre-existing because they were an unmatched set, or warped from welding, not sure. Dad seems to think is isn't bad enough to worry about and could be solved with some Caterpillar Form-A-Gasket (which I have used and is awesome stuff, no doubt). I'm in the process of determining which half it is that is off the most (flat surface and feeler gauge, jut haven't gotten to stop and do it yet). As well as determining a course of action to correct it. If its not terribly bad, I might just try and continue with the leak down procedure with things as they are. If it seems bad, I'll probably build it up with weld and surface it out. Again, when I started this project, I didn't really expect to get this far without any major screw ups, so I started on cases that were effectively junk from the get go, so now I have to fix other problems with them too :lol:

[atc007]

I have been told I do have a bit of a funny accent...:lol:

I'll probably just run the regular 39mm pwk. If the thing ends up being too peaky in the upper RPM range for me I might neck it back down with a 35mm even.

It'll want at least the 39. She'll be a very hungry beast :)

[Dirtcrasher]

Billy, You do have a mill correct? Tram it in and;

Any way to get the halves in there from an opposing surface and see what the indicator says??

[Billy Golightly]

Billy, You do have a mill correct? Tram it in and;

Any way to get the halves in there from an opposing surface and see what the indicator says??

Thats pretty much the direction I'm heading. I'm going to feeler gauge out the gaps later today hopefully so I know how much I'm off, and then I'll work on doing that next depending on what it shows. From my scientific procedure I used earlier this week (Bolting it together without a gasket and holding it up to a light) I'm assuming I'm about .005-.010 low in the one spot. I also have determine which case it is that is effected the most. I'm a little anxious about welding on that gasket surface...

The stator side will be a little bit tricky because I have to block it up from that stator cover surface but I should be able to get it pretty close. The clutch side should be relatively easy, tram to table, clamp down from the interior away from the gasket surfaces (Like through a main bearing hole and transmision shaft area) use some setup blocks on the gasket edge and tram onto those also.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

It'll want at least the 39. She'll be a very hungry beast :)

It will be hungry.. The MXZ700 and 800's came with twin Mikuni 40mm carbs. However, they had more displacement with that bore due to a longer stroke than the R....

Clutch engagement on those sleds was just shy of 4,000 rpm. And the way the whole drive system works, you are running 6-8000 rpm alot of the time. That being the case, I would suspect they are ported a bit more toward mid-top than a stock 250r was. So yes, I would think a 39mm or bigger would be ideal.

[slashfan7964]

It will be hungry.. The MXZ700 and 800's came with twin Mikuni 40mm carbs. However, they had more displacement with that bore due to a longer stroke than the R....


My friends MXZ500 has factory twin Mikuni 40mm carbs...I rebuilt them.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

My friends MXZ500 has factory twin Mikuni 40mm carbs...I rebuilt them.

Never owned or put a wrench to the 500, only ever had 7 and 800's. Didn't want to say since I didn't know for sure.

[slashfan7964]

Yeah, I believe they are the exact same setup minus the displacement, at least to my knowledge. I've been doing a lot of work to it lately...it was a mess when I got ahold of it.

[Billy Golightly]

Update;

I think I got my cases suitably surfaced and smoothed out. I ended up after some extensive checking with a feeler gauge found I had up to a .018 gap in the cases right in the crank case area. Upon closer inspection, I've found that atleast one of these cases looked like it had suffered a pretty catastrophic crank disconnect and failure. The gasket edge was actually bent outwards, and wasn't sitting totally flat with its counter part. Plus there was a spot I knew that had a crack in it. Remember, these were junk cases when I started and I knew that :)

I've preached this in the past, but it is absolutely imperative that a motor have a good seal in the crankcase, cylinder, head, exhaust,intake, etc. If you can't pass a leak down test you are GIVING away HP and you will endlessly chase your tail for fueling and electrical issues when it is infact an airleak of some sort. I have a stock 250R motor with bolt ons only that embarrassed quite a few "built" 250Rs. But I had it where it would hold 12psi over night. So I am making sure that I am able to get the best performance possible out of this build while everything is apart and loose. If it doesn't run right, I want to eliminate as many variables as possible obviously.

I ended up surfacing each side of the cases on some sand paper taped to a piece of glass and found where my bad spots were. I just went over the whole gasket surface with a black magic marker and then sanded till it was gone pretty much everywhere else, to determine my spots.

184289184290184291

As you can see in the pictures, the edge just wasnt sitting flat. I ended up working on this a bit more and got it really close, and then I ended up welding and building up 2 other areas (No finished picture yet, I'll get some). Working on these case edges had intimidated me a lot, but ended up being easier than I had thought it was. Rules being: Cleanliness is godliness on aluminum, pre-heat the entire work piece with a torch, and use appropriate sized filler rod. I ended up dressing these areas back out with a couple different stages of filing and my cases now seal within .003 without a gasket when bolted together ;) Cometic center case gasket is .020 thick.


As they sit right now, I've assembled the bottom end with the crank, main bearings, and seals. Installed the topend with the base gaskets, spacer plate, the head with its o-rings. Intake, and exhaust flange both installed. The only things I need is a rubber intake boot, a couple 5mm odd ball sized bolts for the intake, and the dang right side crank seal collar which is actually discontinued from Honda. When I get that put together I'll get to leakdown test the whole she-bang finally.

[Dirtcrasher]

Billy, what do you need? Button head 5mm allen?

I have a ton of SS hardware and could mail you down what you need.....

[Billy Golightly]

Yes that's it. I gotta check my length but they need to be fairly long because of the intake and Reed cage thicknesses. That'd be qwesome, I'll check out the lengths and let you know

[atc007]

Update;

I think I got my cases suitably surfaced and smoothed out. I ended up after some extensive checking with a feeler gauge found I had up to a .018 gap in the cases right in the crank case area. Upon closer inspection, I've found that atleast one of these cases looked like it had suffered a pretty catastrophic crank disconnect and failure. The gasket edge was actually bent outwards, and wasn't sitting totally flat with its counter part. Plus there was a spot I knew that had a crack in it. Remember, these were junk cases when I started and I knew that :)

I've preached this in the past, but it is absolutely imperative that a motor have a good seal in the crankcase, cylinder, head, exhaust,intake, etc. If you can't pass a leak down test you are GIVING away HP and you will endlessly chase your tail for fueling and electrical issues when it is infact an airleak of some sort. I have a stock 250R motor with bolt ons only that embarrassed quite a few "built" 250Rs. But I had it where it would hold 12psi over night. So I am making sure that I am able to get the best performance possible out of this build while everything is apart and loose. If it doesn't run right, I want to eliminate as many variables as possible obviously.

I ended up surfacing each side of the cases on some sand paper taped to a piece of glass and found where my bad spots were. I just went over the whole gasket surface with a black magic marker and then sanded till it was gone pretty much everywhere else, to determine my spots.

184289184290184291

As you can see in the pictures, the edge just wasnt sitting flat. I ended up working on this a bit more and got it really close, and then I ended up welding and building up 2 other areas (No finished picture yet, I'll get some). Working on these case edges had intimidated me a lot, but ended up being easier than I had thought it was. Rules being: Cleanliness is godliness on aluminum, pre-heat the entire work piece with a torch, and use appropriate sized filler rod. I ended up dressing these areas back out with a couple different stages of filing and my cases now seal within .003 without a gasket when bolted together ;) Cometic center case gasket is .020 thick.


As they sit right now, I've assembled the bottom end with the crank, main bearings, and seals. Installed the topend with the base gaskets, spacer plate, the head with its o-rings. Intake, and exhaust flange both installed. The only things I need is a rubber intake boot, a couple 5mm odd ball sized bolts for the intake, and the dang right side crank seal collar which is actually discontinued from Honda. When I get that put together I'll get to leakdown test the whole she-bang finally.

Where is the LOVE this post button? We really DO need one..

[Billy Golightly]

So, I figured today basically the short list of what all has to be done on this thing assuming the leak down test goes well;

Make and weld water necks onto the head, and also the cylinder to tie into the 250R coolant system.
Machine my shifting shaft and shifting shaft seal area on my center cases.
Drill/tap new drain plug since the old one was stripped and I welded it up.
Buy and install all new case bearings.
Buy and install a 4mm stroker crank (been testing with a stock crank I had)
Finish zeroing in my deck heights and head squish.
Build a pipe...this is going to be as much of a project as the motor itself was probably.


All thats left is well...everything :lol: :D


I was hoping to have this done by TF, but especially with the pipe work, that is probably bit more ambitious than I can rationally handle and complete successfully.

[Billy Golightly]

As soon as I get a free weekend from work...

Also forgot to mention I have to clean up the welds in the transfer ports to match the cylinder but that's not more than an hour or two at most.

[Billy Golightly]

...:lol: My dad and I say it different, and he knows of them since back in the 1960s when they sent a snow machine to test out in the Everglades working on power line right of ways and he worked with FPL on that.

[Yamada]

www.youtube.com/embed/KdmefIovkDM
The women say Bombardier right at 0:47

[atc007]

So, I figured today basically the short list of what all has to be done on this thing assuming the leak down test goes well;

Make and weld water necks onto the head, and also the cylinder to tie into the 250R coolant system.
Machine my shifting shaft and shifting shaft seal area on my center cases.
Drill/tap new drain plug since the old one was stripped and I welded it up.
Buy and install all new case bearings.
Buy and install a 4mm stroker crank (been testing with a stock crank I had)
Finish zeroing in my deck heights and head squish.
Build a pipe...this is going to be as much of a project as the motor itself was probably.


All thats left is well...everything :lol: :D


I was hoping to have this done by TF, but especially with the pipe work, that is probably bit more ambitious than I can rationally handle and complete successfully.

How hard could a pipe be?? Cut a MXZX 800 pipe in half,same to a 250R,and weld them together! Lol, , Fullwell, knowing the exhaust will be the single most important part of this project. As far as extracting all of the horsies available and having them at the desired rpm/powerband. Wish I could help,but I can't,and I know you'll handle it :) It will have to resemble a 500 pipe in volume.. Cool stuff.

[whitetail hunter]

hows it going Billy. any more progress made did it pass leak down?

[Billy Golightly]

It did better than I expected but it still needs some tweaking to it. my base gasket surface on the cases is going to need some fine tuning, but the center cases seem to be holding better than I expected in the repaired areas. The northerners will laugh, but its been so cold here, I've not been motivated to go in the shop after dark when I get home. And I've worked like the last 3 weeks and weekends in a row, I just haven't had any time to work on it hardly.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

No laughing here. You guys down there just aren't used to weather like that. Let alone the municipalities being prepared for snow removal that far below the Mason/Dixon.

But keep your chin up, while you have been having the weather you have had, we up here in northern NY have been well below zero and in some cases 20 below or colder at night and struggling to get out of single digits during the day! And yes, it IS wearing on me too! We have been in a clod snap for pretty much 2 weeks now with nary a break. It is a bit warmer today though, we hit 24 deg! LOL!

I havan't touched the wife's 350x project I have going in the garage lately. Between being busy with other things and the frigid weather, like you I haven't had the desire to work in the garage.

[Billy Golightly]

hey El-Camexican, does this contraption ring a bell for you?

185799

[atc007]

Dammmmmmnnnnnnnn!

[Billy Golightly]

I think I'm going to end up redoing the top surface of my cases just to be on the safe side since it was a little bit questionable on the alignment anyways. Also strongly considering putting in time serts threaded inserts for the cylinder bolts just as a precautionary measure.

This thing has turned into a money pit but I'm learning a lot and by the time this one is done I should be able to replicate and crank out another one very easily actually.

[yaegerb]

hey El-Camexican, does this contraption ring a bell for you?

185799

Ok, call me an idiot....what is that? :wondering

[rg97]

Its a 1-2-3 block (or thats what I call it) connected to who knows what. Hopefully some will explain it because I'm :wondering: too

[Billy Golightly]

Sweet!:Bounce I’ll bet that comes in handy when you go to modify the second set of “slightly more pristine” cases. So tell us, did your lathe darn near walked out the door while making that hex shaft round?:lol:

Not much lathe walking with this beast...185825

[Billy Golightly]

You guys can speculate what you think that might be for and then I'll explain it here in a bit? :)

[atc007]

Not much lathe walking with this beast...185825

That pic looks straight out of 1918. So cool..

[Billy Golightly]

That was one of my final images for Photography class last year. I really liked it alot also. Here are a couple more I really liked I shot the same night.

185842185844

Vintage metal working tools and equipment are almost as cool as three-wheelers :D

[atc007]

I'm Very quickly realizing that. That is amazing photography. My Nephews a photographer,and I wish I knew half the stuff he's forgotten.

[fabiodriven]

My curiosity has been piqued on what that doohicky is. I just stared at it for ten minutes straight. I more often then not solve problems in my sleep, but sometimes it takes more than one night. I want to see if I can figure this one out. I hope Steve doesn't see this before I get it, if I can get it.

[C.J]

Is it to hold the cases perfectly in line with each other via the crank bearing pockets?

[Red Rider]

You guys can speculate what you think that might be for and then I'll explain it here in a bit? :)It must be the contraption that El Camexican suggested you make all the way back in post #34.


If you were going to go through the trouble of setting up and running a piston electrically to check for wear would it not be less trouble to machine a shaft to mimic a crankshaft, leave two equal diameter ends on it to use a reference points and find someone with a CNC mill to do a skim pass parallel to crank?


Very good idea on the crank parallel idea..wish I would have thought of that earlier now instead of setting it up the way I did.

[Billy Golightly]

You nailed it. The hex shaft goes in the crank journals, the 1-2-3 block is a spacer to get above the deck height, and the wide bar is so I can tram the mill head exactly parallel with where the crank is on the left and right directions so there is no funky piston or ring wear. Within reason, it doesn't matter if the cylinder is tilted forward and backwards a little different, its the side to side that is the killer. It bolts together, so once its trammed in on the top piece, I can unbolt it, and the hex shaft stays in the cases below the deck height of the cases, and I can fly-cut them without having to remove/resetup anything.

[yaegerb]

You nailed it. The hex shaft goes in the crank journals, the 1-2-3 block is a spacer to get above the deck height, and the wide bar is so I can tram the mill head exactly parallel with where the crank is on the left and right directions so there is no funky piston or ring wear. Within reason, it doesn't matter if the cylinder is tilted forward and backwards a little different, its the side to side that is the killer. It bolts together, so once its trammed in on the top piece, I can unbolt it, and the hex shaft stays in the cases below the deck height of the cases, and I can fly-cut them without having to remove/resetup anything.

That is very interesting...Thanks for the explanation!

[fabiodriven]

You nailed it. The hex shaft goes in the crank journals, the 1-2-3 block is a spacer to get above the deck height, and the wide bar is so I can tram the mill head exactly parallel with where the crank is on the left and right directions so there is no funky piston or ring wear.

That's exactly what I was going to say! Although when I use these I make sure to scram the tarnsworth head on the plank grounger when tixing the pladder joint.

[Dirtcrasher]

You nailed it. The hex shaft goes in the crank journals, the 1-2-3 block is a spacer to get above the deck height, and the wide bar is so I can tram the mill head exactly parallel with where the crank is on the left and right directions so there is no funky piston or ring wear. Within reason, it doesn't matter if the cylinder is tilted forward and backwards a little different, its the side to side that is the killer. It bolts together, so once its trammed in on the top piece, I can unbolt it, and the hex shaft stays in the cases below the deck height of the cases, and I can fly-cut them without having to remove/resetup anything.

As you know Billy, sometimes the set up and indicating of the head take more time than the actual machining.

You have to be a bit out of the box but need to know you are 100% dead nuts, or the results are what they are!

I enjoy a challenging setup and then an indicator to prove it all but it SO very important.

What did you use for welding? I imaging you have a TIG and probably a bit older?? I'm looking forward to fixing 250R cases and such with my new 180 Diversion series TIG and a bit of machining. Just got a new 80 size bottle for it the other day but this opens up many doors!!

And just like you, I have had very little drive to get out to the shop with all this snow and weather!!!!

Coming along well Billy :beer:

[Billy Golightly]

As you know Billy, sometimes the set up and indicating of the head take more time than the actual machining.

You have to be a bit out of the box but need to know you are 100% dead nuts, or the results are what they are!

I enjoy a challenging setup and then an indicator to prove it all but it SO very important.

What did you use for welding? I imaging you have a TIG and probably a bit older?? I'm looking forward to fixing 250R cases and such with my new 180 Diversion series TIG and a bit of machining. Just got a new 80 size bottle for it the other day but this opens up many doors!!

And just like you, I have had very little drive to get out to the shop with all this snow and weather!!!!

Coming along well Billy :beer:


Steve, my main machine is a Miller Dialarc of the early 1970's variety. Very basic, one of the first machines to have a built in closed loop water cooling system. The previous ones used an open loop system where basically you hooked up a garden hose, it circulated through the welding torch, and then just dumped back outside :lol: It doesn't have A/C Balance, Cleaning, or any of those other settings that are standard even on base models now a days. It works great though, but I have found that some of the bead looks you see people doing, specifically very narrow flat ones, are very difficult to replicate on the machine. So Basically, if you want a specific look of your bead, this isn't the best machine, but if you want it to weld and get the job done, its just about foolproof. I can make flat beads no problem, just not as neat and narrow, leather stitching type look you see sometimes. Its a 300amp machine also, I've welded 1/4in aluminum in a single pass before - it was HOT.

My dad bought a Syncrowave 250 Miller in an equipment sale about 10-12 years ago, and I would like to get it fixed. It had rats inside of it and ate up all kinds of stuff, we took it to a repair place and they said a new mainboard was needed ($1500) so its been sitting ever since. I talked to an old timer at the welding supply place a few months ago though and he said there are ways to run jumper wires around bad spots on the mainboards, so I would like to get it up and working sometime. It has a lot more adjust ability that my Dialarc does not have.

[oscarmayer]

billy,
try this.
http://inlandcomp.com/motherboard-repair/

you may find a couple of hundred later you have a working board.

or if your feeling froggy,
http://www.gizmag.com/silver-pen-for-handwriting-electrical-circuits/19059/

Basically you go get a true silver pen and that should let you re-write the damaged pathways on the board once done, test to ensure operation, then you can use eurthane clear coat on it to ensure it stays.

they also make crazy tiny thin wire designed to be soldered on to fix a broken pathway or more common refereed to as "raceways" on a circuit board. (sorry for being so technicial, but being a comp engineer this is more my realm.)

[Billy Golightly]

Thats all out of my payscale :lol:

I'll end up just taking it the guy I talked to eventually hopefully.

[WIkid500]

Steve, my main machine is a Miller Dialarc of the early 1970's variety. Very basic, one of the first machines to have a built in closed loop water cooling system. The previous ones used an open loop system where basically you hooked up a garden hose, it circulated through the welding torch, and then just dumped back outside :lol: It doesn't have A/C Balance, Cleaning, or any of those other settings that are standard even on base models now a days. It works great though, but I have found that some of the bead looks you see people doing, specifically very narrow flat ones, are very difficult to replicate on the machine. So Basically, if you want a specific look of your bead, this isn't the best machine, but if you want it to weld and get the job done, its just about foolproof. I can make flat beads no problem, just not as neat and narrow, leather stitching type look you see sometimes. Its a 300amp machine also, I've welded 1/4in aluminum in a single pass before - it was HOT.

My dad bought a Syncrowave 250 Miller in an equipment sale about 10-12 years ago, and I would like to get it fixed. It had rats inside of it and ate up all kinds of stuff, we took it to a repair place and they said a new mainboard was needed ($1500) so its been sitting ever since. I talked to an old timer at the welding supply place a few months ago though and he said there are ways to run jumper wires around bad spots on the mainboards, so I would like to get it up and working sometime. It has a lot more adjust ability that my Dialarc does not have.




There's no way the main board costs $1500 for a Sync 250. Pull the board and send it up. I had my Syncrowave 250 fixed for $100, it needed a start up capacitor. I picked mine up for $60 at the company barn sale, foot pedal and 250 amp torch was included. It's worth more in scrap lol. These things weld great. I built a water cooler out of an ebay procon pump, and had a friend laser out some SS for a water tank that I welded up.


Awesome project you're working on here too!

[Dirtcrasher]

Hey Billy, I just picked up a Miller 180 Diversion Welder and a book called "Tig welding for dummies"; Which is a pretty summation of what most people need. They had a 10% off promotion which let me get a cart, 6 different 3' lengths of rod and an expensive "Blue Flame helmet". Gloves and sleeves too! It was a fantastic deal and it's use will pay for it. I grabbed the size 80 bottle as well, so no rental fees and it came already filled for a nice cost!

However, as you stated yourself, I just cannot bring myself into the shop just yet. We have been bombarded with snow and very cold temperatures at night. I do however, look forward to getting real good at this. Such as repairing 250R left cases. I want a weld looking like a layer of rolled out dimes :D We'll see what I can do and I am a member of Boston local 17 SMW which has a course on TIG welding if they can get 20 guys to sign up; It's free!

My suggestion to all of you; Take advantage of ANY and ALL courses offered at technical schools and it may just save your home from foreclosure someday. The older guys are disappearing so we need to fill that void.....

[Billy Golightly]

I think in another 10 or 15 years, people in skilled labor jobs like welding, machining, carpenters, etc are going to be in higher demand than programmers and IT people were in the early 90s...thats my prediction.

[oscarmayer]

^ quack smoker! (stay away from duck ponds. Just because it is white and chalky does not mean it is cocaine. :P )

[Billy Golightly]

Here is an update - I used the tool and re-surfaced the top of the cases, I *was* off on my side to side angle quite abit...I'm glad I did it. Using that and my Edge Technologies tramming tool, I got within .0005 of the crank journal, which is plenty good enough.

I also put 2 heli-coils in the exhaust side cylinder bolt holes since those seemed to be already be feeling a little crunchy from all the in and out. Nice and smooth now.

Re-assembled and found a couple other air leaks. One is where my exhaust flange goes on (in real world application, not as important). and also a little bit in the center cases in one spot where I had welded, that I hadn't detected before (probably because of the base gasket area bleeding off enough to not notice down there). I still had assembled this with dry gaskets on the base and the center case.

So I broke it back down, used a very light coat of blue silicone with my finger on the problematic surface (I know, I know, everyone hates on RTV, but if you use it right, it really is useful stuff). Re-assembled, and got it to hold better. Still not exactly where I want to be, it holds within the 7-5 psi range for about 3 minutes, but not quite good enough yet. Need to investigate the center case area its leaking at a bit more.

Also, how many are familiar with that seal collar that goes in the crank seal on the transmission side? I have a theory on that I'd like to share.

[jays375]

Neat project for sure.Are you using a real leak detechtor?I use it at work all the time and it can find the smallest leak.
Hope you are right about the future Billy.Would be nice to be appreciated for a skill you have.Right now everybody wants cheap help.Rather try out 20 fresh guys than a seasoned pro.

[Billy Golightly]

No, no dye setup...jsut good old fashioned air pressure and soap. I have a radiator cap tester I had a custom hydraulic hose made for with a 1/8in pipe swivel on it, that threads into a few different aluminum bushings for different sized intake boots. Also have a few to go in radiator lines and test a coolant system as well. It has a nice big gauge on it, its perfect for doing this kind of stuff.

A very quiet setting helps too, I seem to be able hear even the slightest amounts of air protrusion and track them down to the general area, and then use soapy water to come back and really pin point it. The rule of thumb to pass the test is hold 7psi, for 7 minutes so I'm making progress on getting there with it. Most of the leakage this last time appears to be from the exhaust flange I made, even though I sealed it, so I will have to come back and do some filing or possibly a little fly-cut job on it also.

The little dot in the center cases kind of has my attention too though, I have to look at that a bit more closely.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

Also, how many are familiar with that seal collar that goes in the crank seal on the transmission side? I have a theory on that I'd like to share.

Yep. What's the theory?

[Billy Golightly]

If you install it the way the service manual shows, how do you keep air from protruding through the splines?

[bkm]

Some run an o-ring over the crank and install the sleeve. There was nothing there from the factory and they didn't leak. I don't know if it is a perfect interference fit or when the crank gear is torqued down it produces an airtight seal against the should of the crank web.

[Billy Golightly]

I actually turn my collars around "backwards" as per the service manual and parts diagram, since they have a shoulder on the inside that fits right over the end of the crank before the splines are started. Plus you have the whole flat of the back side to go up against the side of the crank webbing as well.

I half wondered if Honda intentionally did that as a trick so the factory bikes could always be faster than everyone elses, because every other one I've ever personally tested did leak there, not a lot of course, but some.

[RIDE-RED 250r]

I have wondered the same thing about that collar myself. I guess I just assumed the 2-stroke oil seeping out from the crank bearing would act as a sealer there??

Kind of like piston rings on a tiny little RC nitro engine..there aren't any in many cases. They cut a fine groove in the piston where a ring/rings would be on a normal engine and fuel collects there and acts like a piston ring, sealing it up.

[Billy Golightly]

Heres another youtube video. basically me yammering away on about what I'm doing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8CHfHhdeNw

[fabiodriven]

Steve and I installed a Time Cert on a CAT 3406 recently. It was the first time I had used one but it certainly worked well.

[atc500x]

But when installed,the air can't go thru the spline if the gears are tighten with the bolt and the washer....?

[Billy Golightly]

Well that is the theory, but 7lbs of air pressure can push through a lot of different places and areas...

[fabiodriven]

Catty whompus.

[Billy Golightly]

I know I realized that after the video I forgot to say it...I'll remember next time :)

[zx10crazy]

This is an awesome build very impressed with your skills and determination can't wait to see and hear if run!

[Outlaw #24]

I have been following this build and am about as anxious as you to see this completed :) I read your reasoning about the air leakage on the sealing collar of the crank shaft when you are leak checking and want to pipe in on that subject :confused: First off Rad Randy And I were discussing the leak down check about a week before you posted your thread about air leak testing ;) I have been doing all of my own work on these for YEARS , I never even thought about doing leak checks on these engines. Thanks to Randy's drawings I now have a checker! Don't get me wrong I do leak checks on all the other engines I ever work on and that is quite a few, from 2 strokes to Sprint Car engines. I have to take issue with your theory of the situation with the seal collar though and I have been thinking about this since I read your theory :confused: Yes I see that as being the most likely place to loose the air pressure , I have looked at this objectively and here is how I see it , you can agree or disagree but I have incorporated your theory and this reasoning together to draw the conclusion I have drawn :crazy: The seal collar if you look at it and the crank shaft they are a machine fit like a valve in it's seat :confused: I agree with the guy that said about tightening the bolt down after installing the gears and Yes as you theorize it is still very likely that it may leak still :) But We are testing Cold and When we heat everything to operating temperature the likelihood of air leaking there is so minimal that it doesn't deserve any further discussion :( But I also see the end objective to keep air from leaking while testing, so an O ring could probably be used between the Seal Collar and the crank shaft seating surfaces while testing and then remove it :D I will be testing this theory in a couple days as I have an engine I am Getting ready to assemble :naughty: Can I ride the Hybrid when You are done :lol:

[Outlaw #24]

You are correct in your assumption El ! Your observation of the o ring on the KTM is what I suggest, but to remove it after testing because it may change the tolerances if left in place ! I did look at the fiche but had to fish around a bit :lol:

[Billy Golightly]

yeah, I realize I may be splitting hairs there - but it just doesn't seem right to me, that the machined ID portion of the collar as it is shown on the Honda parts break down, is intended to be sitting over top of the splines, and not further back "in" on the crank where the splines arent cut. As it is drawn, basically the only thing sealing that collar (besides the bolt and crash washer on the end, lets forget they are there because it helps my case :lol:) is the lipped edge of the collar being up against the crank webbing, since the lip is a larger diameter than the bearing surface. If you picture putting a cup against a wall or flat edge, thats basically the only thing sealing it, is that lipped edge as it is drawn in the parts break down. I feel like flipping it around, and using the precision machined ID to go past where the splines are cut, back to where the bearing surface of the crank is still completely round would provide a *much* better seal.

[Billy Golightly]

I have been following this build and am about as anxious as you to see this completed :) I read your reasoning about the air leakage on the sealing collar of the crank shaft when you are leak checking and want to pipe in on that subject :confused: First off Rad Randy And I were discussing the leak down check about a week before you posted your thread about air leak testing ;) I have been doing all of my own work on these for YEARS , I never even thought about doing leak checks on these engines. Thanks to Randy's drawings I now have a checker! Don't get me wrong I do leak checks on all the other engines I ever work on and that is quite a few, from 2 strokes to Sprint Car engines. I have to take issue with your theory of the situation with the seal collar though and I have been thinking about this since I read your theory :confused: Yes I see that as being the most likely place to loose the air pressure , I have looked at this objectively and here is how I see it , you can agree or disagree but I have incorporated your theory and this reasoning together to draw the conclusion I have drawn :crazy: The seal collar if you look at it and the crank shaft they are a machine fit like a valve in it's seat :confused: I agree with the guy that said about tightening the bolt down after installing the gears and Yes as you theorize it is still very likely that it may leak still :) But We are testing Cold and When we heat everything to operating temperature the likelihood of air leaking there is so minimal that it doesn't deserve any further discussion :( But I also see the end objective to keep air from leaking while testing, so an O ring could probably be used between the Seal Collar and the crank shaft seating surfaces while testing and then remove it :D I will be testing this theory in a couple days as I have an engine I am Getting ready to assemble :naughty: Can I ride the Hybrid when You are done :lol:


And yes, you can definitely throw a leg over it when I finally get it done!

[Outlaw #24]

I am sure it makes sense to the people that designed it and I see both points , Yours and El's , I don't have a lathe so I couldn't do it on site :cry: I appreciate you bringing this whole issue to lite Billy, because I would have been testing and loosing pressure at that location and it would have driven me bananas :wondering So I will use an O ring!

[Billy Golightly]

I'm declaring the leak down testing completed.

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[atc007]

Beat me to it El! Lets guess.. Diesel/propane/ Meth injection ,,no plug needed!?? ...Have I mentioned I Love this thread? :)

[Billy Golightly]

There is still a lot more to do. Building the trans is going to be an expensive and pretty timely thing in and of itself probably.

I have to angle the plug in the head to clear the frame - I didn't want to drill it out and start working on that till I had the leak down test cleared.

I need to still;

Angle the plug in the head (turn an aluminum slug, weld it, re-drill, re-tap, clean up combustion chamber on bottom)
Machine the shift shaft and shift seal area
Drill & tap for the drain plug where I repaired it
Install Water inlet in the head
Install water outlet on the cylinder
Tweak my exhaust flange I made
Replace every bearing in the cases
Have the cylinder replated
Buy and install a 4mm Stroker crank
Build the trans/swap everything from another motor into this one

Building a pipe and some light touch up grinding work where the transfer tunnel ramps are not included in the list.

[Billy Golightly]

This weekends update!

Drilled, pressed in a slug, welded, and re-drilled the new angled spark plug hole (Still need to tap it, thought I had a 14x1.25 handy but no such luck) in the head.

Also welded a flat spot, machined, and drilled a hole down to the water jacket for a water spigot. Went back and fourth between a bolt on or weld on neck, ended up with a weld on setup. Deciding this took a lot of time. Also had to build up, then surface, build up then surface a few times to get a big enough area.

On the cylinder, machined a flat spot for a bolt on water neck above the intake, and that broke though into the water jacket in spots I didn't want it to, and then didn't, where I DID want it to. More welding and resurfacing, welding and resurfacing. Got it built up enough finally on about the 3rd attempt. I have the hole down into the water jacket on the cylinder drilled, but I need to do 2 more small drills and taps for the 6mm bolts that will hold on that bolt on spigot (Didn't get pics of it finished, that'll be next time when its completed.

Also worked with the die grinder and marked out where my transfer ramps needed cleaned up to meet the base gasket area, go that almost 100% perfect. Could run it as it is now or another 5 min and I'd have it better than OEM probably.

A few WIP below...I also wacked the F' outa myself in the face with the handle to raise and lower the knee mill, almost knocked myself out. In my infinite wisdom, swinging it away with my left hand and my head bent over, trying to lower the table about as fast as I could, it ran off the splines, spun right around in my hand and CLOCKED me good about 1 1/2in from my left eyeball. I seen stars and had a good headache for about 45 minutes. If it would have been lower it woulda knocked some teeth out for sure...Did receive a complimentary black eye though!

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Welded up the old spark plug hole after pressing in an aluminum slug, welded in circumference on top and bottom of it.

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Doing a little mock up testing, ended up shortening my weld on elbow a bit after seeing it in there. You can also see where I was late yesterday on the back of the cylinder working on making a spot for the bolt on water spigot.



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Final welding of the water spigot on the head, I have angle drilled the plug hole - still need to tap it. (Not shown)

188163

And me after whacking myself with 3lb cast iron knee handle.

I took a lot of video too...I'm working on compiling a hodge podge of stuff I want to end up making into a little 10-15 minute movie about this thing once its finally finished.

[atc007]

Damn man. Glad you're ok.. Life changing crap happens in a split second.. Engines looking awesome!

[Billy Golightly]

188611188610

[C.J]

Lookin great Billy!! Man I wish I could do stuff like that..

I'm not too sure if you've gone over this before or not but: Are you going to add any material to the counter balancer? Or will it be fine as is stock?

[Billy Golightly]

Lookin great Billy!! Man I wish I could do stuff like that..

I'm not too sure if you've gone over this before or not but: Are you going to add any material to the counter balancer? Or will it be fine as is stock?

I'm going to leave it as is at this junction, perhaps sometime in the future I might do something more, but unlikely for now.


I also was originally going to run a +4mm crank with a KTM rod on it that is heavier duty, but in talking to a few people, I think thats over kill for running pump gas and a non-drag racing application. So I'm just going to run a drop in 4MM Crank.


I will take some good pictures later today and make a more expansive write up, I did quite a lot to it this weekend.

[atc007]

I can just HEAR this knarly trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailpro barking out of a turn!! Anyone who knows anything about these will know a 1/2 mile away. That aint no Honda!

[atc007]

I never imagined you would end up with intake clearance issues around the kicker housing.. Looks close!

[SUPERBEAST]

this thing is going to be a beast when you get this done billy

i also read that you said you would have to get a stronger tranny, do you think you would put a billet trans in?

[Billy Golightly]

No change on the transmission anticipated - possibly a lock up clutch or something might be required but I will be leaving much as I can stock.

So here is the photo summary of what I got done this weekend basically;

188667188671188670

I did some transfer ramp match work, by bolting the cylinder onto one half of the case and then basically working the die grinder and stuff around the seam of the case, spacer plate, and the cylinder. Ended up getting it matched up perfectly. I had it close but its a good smooth transition now. The little ball type de-bur bits are great for awkward angles and places like that. I might still come back with some flapper wheels or something to smooth it up a little bit more but I'm content to run it as is also.


188668
I also machined the shift shaft hole, and seal area on the case that had been repaired. I had originally built this up with weld many many years ago as a set of junk cases that were given to me, and for me to practice on the aluminum welding at the time. I didn't need to do much besides just machining it out. I turned the case over wit hthe stator side down, ran a drill bit through from the inside to get centered and cleaned out the shift shaft area first. Then I unboltd the case from the table, turned it stator side up, used the drill bit to center up in the same hole, swapped out to a large 2 flute endmill and made a plunge cut for the seal that I had bought specifically for this. Its within about .004 of the seal diameter from what I remember when I was trying to size things up before purchasing. Turned out pretty nice.

188669

I also, as I have documented elsewhere and shown, had to weld up my OEM drain plug hole because it was stripped out. I machined a nice little flat place for the head of the bolt to sit down on, and then drilled and tapped it 12x1.75 which I will just use an off the shelf bolt for that'll be shortened.


188675188676

This back water neck ended up being a bigger pain in the ass than I thought it was going to be, but after several build ups, and machine back flat operations to get it positioned where I wanted, and then trying to drill and break into the water jacket without getting ontop of the back head stud casting, I finally got it. Didn't turn out internally exactly how I wanted, but it worked. The water neck is $30 from ESR and simplified my life a lot in this particular arrangement.

188674188677

Last week I had shown how I had slugged and welded the OEM spark plug hole. I ended up getting it drilled and re-tapped. Unfortunately, it looks like I should have angled it a bit more than I did (~5 degrees) because it is awfully close to the frame though it does clear it, I'm not real sure how a plug boot is going to fit around it yet. I will probably have to dimple the frame a little bit which is unfortunate because I could have probably avoided it by angling the hole a bit more than I did... You can also see the welded together and welded on 90 degree water spigot neck that went on the front of the cylinder. I had to do a lot of build up work around the front of the head in order to get a suitable place to position that piece before I could drill into the water head and reach a water jacket. Its positioned right in the front, so hypothetically the coolest water coming fresh out of the radiators will hit the hottest side of the topend first, before swirling to the back.

188672188673

Topend bolted to bottom cases with the water necks and re-configured/angled spark plug for the first time. You'll also note the nice shiny and freshly machined aluminum down by the shift seal and shaft area.



188678188679188681188683188684

Misc. Photos outside, comparing to a stock 250R motor. The stock motor will be donating a lot of pieces into the transmission and bottom of this motor when it comes time to assemble. As it sits now I need to do the following things; Buy a 4MM Stroker crank, all new case bearings, get the cylinder plated, build a pipe. Basically all the big ticket high money items...

[El Camexican]

Last week I had shown how I had slugged and welded the OEM spark plug hole. I ended up getting it drilled and re-tapped. Unfortunately, it looks like I should have angled it a bit more than I did (~5 degrees) because it is awfully close to the frame though it does clear it, I'm not real sure how a plug boot is going to fit around it yet. I will probably have to dimple the frame a little bit which is unfortunate because I could have probably avoided it by angling the hole a bit more than I did...
Before you take a hammer to your frame have you considered finding a shorter plug with a similar heat range? Heck, what plug were you planning to use? 250R or SkiDoo? Also, if you were planning to use a ¾ reach, maybe you could use a ½” reach and recess the plug hole in the head by 1/4”? Our old 440 Moto-Ski used a Champion L78 I recall and I think it was only a ½” reach. I’m assuming a shorter distance from the crankshaft centerline to the top of the plug should solve your frame clearance.

[Red Rider]

Looking very nice Billy! All of the welding/machine work on the cases reminds me of what I went through for my CR250 HPP cylinder install on the ATC250R engine, though your project is just a tad bit more involved. When I did my project back in 2001, it would have been nice to have all of the machining equipment at my disposal that you currently do. I was obsessed with making all of the welding on the cases look as factory as possible, thus there was a lot of grinding/sanding/smoothing after the welding process. What are your plans? Are you going for a factory appearance, or a :mad: Frankenstein look?

[Billy Golightly]

I don't know. I'm more the frankstein look type personally, but the plan is to put this in a chrome frame eventually. The joke is it'll be the first "nice" bike I'll have ever built.


188700

Problem is, I can't really decide if I want a frankstein motor in a nice shiny bike, or if I want the whole thing to be nice and shiny...

[Billy Golightly]

Before you take a hammer to your frame have you considered finding a shorter plug with a similar heat range? Heck, what plug were you planning to use? 250R or SkiDoo? Also, if you were planning to use a ¾ reach, maybe you could use a ½” reach and recess the plug hole in the head by 1/4”? Our old 440 Moto-Ski used a Champion L78 I recall and I think it was only a ½” reach. I’m assuming a shorter distance from the crankshaft centerline to the top of the plug should solve your frame clearance.

Yeah, I might end up having to run those smaller plugs that are like $30 a piece worst case scenario. Planning on the 250R plug, so something like a B9ES.

[Billy Golightly]

Just bought one of these since they were on sale; http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-x-20-gauge-slip-roll-36698.html#.Ux5FxIWQr08


Got a good excuse to start on the pipe now

[Mosh]

Ronnie would be eatin this stuff up. Hell of a project. Reminds me of the Z engine that Chainsaw did up years back.

If I can make a suggestion? Maybe talk to Jason Hall about his over size CB bushings for the big end bearing. I have a feeling that big piston is going to bounce that bearing around pretty hard and now would be the time to beef the bore up.

[Billy Golightly]

Ronnie would be eatin this stuff up. Hell of a project. Reminds me of the Z engine that Chainsaw did up years back.

If I can make a suggestion? Maybe talk to Jason Hall about his over size CB bushings for the big end bearing. I have a feeling that big piston is going to bounce that bearing around pretty hard and now would be the time to beef the bore up.

Thanks man, and yes I think he would...this is sort of my own personal Mantis motor I think. I'll check into that, I hadn't ever heard of over sized counter balancer bearings, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

[oscarmayer]

awesome work billy. keep it up. that thing looks like a monster compared to the 250r. you sure your gonna be able to use it's power when it's done? something tell sme it will spend more time wheeling than driving. hahaha

[C.J]

You can always paint up the cases a nice shiny black and that will hide the welding and machine marks a LOT.

I LOVE chrome frames (currently working on a chrome project as well) so I'm gunna tell ya what you want to hear so i can see this thing in a chrome build lmfao

[Billy Golightly]

About 1/2 of the way done on Version 1.0

http://snapwidget.com/v/677644250894149022#.UyY-EoVhrPN

[El Camexican]

Just bought one of these since they were on sale; http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-x-20-gauge-slip-roll-36698.html#.Ux5FxIWQr08


Got a good excuse to start on the pipe now

The few times I’ve contemplated what would be involved in transplanting a two stroke engine into a frame it wasn’t meant for I’ve always assumed that the easiest way to fit a pipe would be to cut one meant for the cylinder into small sections with a band saw and weld it back into a configuration that fits the frame.

So rather than build a pipe from scratch would it not be easiest for you to get a stock pipe from that sled, cut it into short sections and then tack it back into something that suits your frame before welding it all up?

[Billy Golightly]

In theory, yes. In practice out of trying it in the past, not really. The hydroformed pipes are never actually round, they are more oval shaped, so when you section one and try and turn the piece 180 degrees to get your change in angle, you have these big gaps in your weld joint. Particularly in sheet metal, this is a pain in the ass. You can work and work to try and get it to match back up but it just turns into a cluster real fast basically. Slight changes are doable (I've put a bunch of Cr500 pipes on 250R frames with some adaptation), but big substantial cuts and changes...just not happening in my experience.

[Billy Golightly]

Been working on trying to get a pipe, and not really having too much success doing it from scratch so far, but not giving up. Here is my forming die I've been using to help even things back out after sectioning (It hasn't helped too much :lol:)

190179190178

No pics of the pipe itself yet...its kinda gnarly looking at this point.

[trike savior]

first comment but been watching the build closely and loving all of it. what is that you are using for a tool there. Old missile, bomb nose? lol

[Billy Golightly]

Yup...found it in a ditch about 6 or 7 years ago and its been kicking around the shop since then, I figured this would be a good thing to use it for actually!

[Thorpe]

Billy-- what about creating a few hammer forms (typically out of mdf, then being able to grind and shape accordingly) and creating the pipe half at a time and welding two seams...? I spent years beating metal in a hot rod shop, and made many complex curved panels this way... Just my $.02

Or there are some really cool, simple ways guys are hydro forming their pipes on YouTube... (Stupid episode of mythbusters made me look into it more)

[Billy Golightly]

What seems to be my biggest challenge is when I cut the sections out, and then rotate them, the seams do not line up because the blade flexes and doesn't make a perfectly straight cut. That, and a combination of the sectioned piece not being exactly round, so that when you rotate it, it is ovaled and oblonged from positions where it'll match up. I know I'm missing some major part of the process here and I just cannot seem to put my finger on it...

[Thorpe]

Are you cutting with a bandsaw, or abrasive wheel? Have you ever looked into body hammers and dolly's? A few different shaped dolly's and well placed taps with a body hammer would help your transitions, and even help you tighten up some of the gaps in your metal fit... (Guessing your plan is to tig weld your pipe...) I wish you and I were closer so I could give you a hand with that pipe build... Loving your motor build!

[Dirtcrasher]

^ I think Billy needs a big 12-16" stationary disc sander wheel with a 32 grit wheel after a rough cut with a band saw or sawzall. For such thin material, 36 grit is probably too much, but 60 or 80 grit may work perfect. I love my 12" stick ons from McMaster/Carr.

I made my own 12" on a base with an adjustable plate on the Mill, I'll take a pic. I made the shaft fit a metric grizzly disc with a sharp hand file and a micrometer. The motor and aluminum was free and the cast then machined backing plate was 17$.

Lay a 1/8th wide SHARPIE black cut line and use the sander to grind down to the edge of the line, and I'm sure Billy measures very well.

I have a 12" disc sander and that was my Mill and Lathe for years until I got divorced and seem to have more money now being single :lol:

Regardless, that stationary sander works perfect if you have a line you traced or scribed to follow as you sand the material and either to the line or lose the line sanded off. A band saw cut has to be a horror show for thin sheet metal. No luck tig or mig welding big open gaps in thin material, and you can each define your "gap" differently then Billy, I or you perceive it to be......

[Billy Golightly]

Definitely cutting with band saw, very very fine tooth blade thats only like 1/4inch wide on my big 30in throat vertical I have in the back of the shop. I tried cutting a pipe with an abrasive wheel years ago and that was a nightmare. I've never used any body hammers or dollies...I'll look into it but I really wouldn't have a clue what I would be doing with any of it. I've been trying to use that rocket cone some but it just didn't seem to do what I needed it to do. This whole sheet metal thing is very much out of my element, I can weld it no problem but working and manipulating it is way outside my area of expertise.

I half wondered the other night if I needed to use a big disc or belt sander to sort of even them back out, but the problem is the tapers on some of these pieces are so aggressive, I mean, if you take .080 off the width on something, its gonna drop down inside the mating piece, its kinda crazy.


Not gonna give up on it though!

[Thorpe]

Billy-- here is a link to some basic techniques that will give you an idea of what I was talking about... Starting about page 6 or so... I think it would help you in you pipe building. I am willing to bet you already have a decent selection of hammers, and Often times the dolly is nothing more then a pipe, or odd piece of metal that fits the contour, no need to go out and spend a fortune on some sweet Martin body tools...

http://www.tachrev.com/JeffLilly/hammer.pdf

[mart]

Great work billy
Easiest way I find to do pipes is download trailprotrailpro self a little program called cone layout.puch in the exact size if what ever size cone peice you want then prints out the layout for you. Cut the peices out of paper (number them as you go an actually build the pipe out of paper once happy undo all the paper templates then trace each one onto sheet metal cut them out. Get your self a vice mount set of hand rollers and roll each section up an then weld her up. Heaps of work yes but it's an easy way of doing it.

[atc300r]

Here a vid from youtube hope it helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9n6do0__Rs

[Billy Golightly]

Great work billy
Easiest way I find to do pipes is download trailprotrailpro self a little program called cone layout.puch in the exact size if what ever size cone peice you want then prints out the layout for you. Cut the peices out of paper (number them as you go an actually build the pipe out of paper once happy undo all the paper templates then trace each one onto sheet metal cut them out. Get your self a vice mount set of hand rollers and roll each section up an then weld her up. Heaps of work yes but it's an easy way of doing it.

Thanks Mart...thats pretty much what I was going to try and do next, I had been wondering how the heck people figured out the exhaust layouts for each individual section and the only way I could see doing it, was to build the pipe out of a cardboard/paper template and then break it all back down and cut each individual section to lay flat, so I was on the right track. I have the cardboard template rolled, so perhaps I'll take the time to do that this weekend as I really want to try and this part of the puzzle wrapped up. I appreciate you chiming in with that as it gives me some re-assurance I wasn't totally crazy :)

[WIkid500]

I agree with making the pipe in a straight section then cutting it to fit the frame. The best way to figure the cones is google up a cone layout excel file. They make it simple to make your end cone pieces. From there you use a slip roller and get busy making things round. Make sure to measure the saw kerf and guesstimate how many cuts you plan on making to section the pipe, add that to your overall length of the body. A band saw is the best to get a straight cut.

Awesome project, can't wait to see it fire.

[Billy Golightly]

Okay. This thing is still driving me insane.

Atleast when you used the pipe already rolled out round as metal and cut pieces out, you didn't have this problem as bad, all though you still did because it ovaled and changed shapes while you were trying to cut it, or you could not complete a perfectly straight edged cut like I mentioned before with the band saw blade flexing and walking side to side, it ends up more of a wave pattern in the experiences I had. Although from looking at these patterns, I'd almost be willing to go back to working directly with the steel, as the edges matched up considerably better than what I'm seeing here with the paper, but they still sucked.

191059191056191057191058

This is with an old CR500 pipe cone I had laying around for a previous project and never used. It came to me as in the first picture, already rolled and welded down the center. I started again with this piece on the Rotax as an experiment and a trial/error type deal more than anything. I wasn't really satisfied with the results of how the joints matched up on it, because I kept running into the "ovaling" issue of the pieces, and the fact that the cut edges werent square enough to weld nicely. I could certainly cover the gaps and do it - it just wouldn't look very pretty.

Here is an example of what I'm fighting with trying to figure out. I understand the problem, its the fact that I'm cutting the shape on one plane, and then basically trying to use it on another, and thats why its doing what its doing. HOWEVER, I cannot figure out how to remedy that yet... How else do you cut it without it being laid flat? Initially I tried with scissors and that was even worse because then it wasn't a constantly circle around, it really waved and crooked as you worked your way around. So, I got the cutting board, that seems to have helped because atleast now its consistently wrong all the way around instead of having high and low places in it, wherever.



191051

So Basically, I set my angle (Which is about 10-12-15 degrees on average I'm seeing) and I make an angled cut, where the cut edge is perfectly straight, using the paper cutter board, as you can see by the picture above.

But what happens when you "unfold" it, and make it round, again?


191052

Your what was previously nice and straight cut edge, now has an incredible bevel along the edges, that won't match up with anything. A pretty significant bevel too, as you can tell. The larger your diameter, the more pronounced it is, and it isn't just a matter of hitting that piece on a belt sander or something to even it out I don't think, the amount of material removal would be too great (so I think at the moment anyways, someone tell me something different?).

191054

Another example, of a sectioned off piece of the card board template, perfectly straight cut edge.

191055191053

Now, rolled back out into a circular shape - this is what I get.


I understand this is a by-product of cutting it on one plane and axis like I mentioned above, and then changing it, but how in the hell do you cut it on the round plane to begin with?! The paper has to be flat to cut it., and if you use scissors, your even more cattywompass from what I'm seeing. I really thought that this method would allow me to then trace out the metal pieces and make it all be nice and perfect...no such luck :lol: Where I seem to be at, at the moment, is able to resolve one issue or another. I can fix the ovaling, or I can fix the mating edges, but I can't seem to get both fixed together. I half way wonder if on the steel pipe, it wouldn't be prudent to cut each one of those sections apart, and then re-roll them by hand, and then re-weld them



What in the hell do I do here? I'm sure the answer is simple but it sure is doing a good job of hiding from me.

[Dirtcrasher]

Whats being tricky for Billy, some may not understand; I can explain it like this.

Chop off a piece on the bottom of a coffee can, both the top and bottom may measure 4"s OD. Now cut or sand 1/4" off ONE SIDE to a taper to the original height on it's opposing side, NOT opposing end. Now this opening may measure 4.250 because it is now a greater distance due to the angled cut.

Hence the difficult welding work trying to keep gaps tight. Not easy to do......

At least that's my thought.... :D

Looking good Billie!

[mart]

A layout will not be a straight cut like that for a cone billy.
The best bit of advice I can give you is honestly download that little program I mentioned (cone layout)
Punch in length of cone front angle rear angle front diameter rear diameter an it prints it out for you. One one is printed I guarantee you'll understand how the layout is ment to be an it'll all come together.
Here's a few of a pipe I did for my aircooled (never got it finished though lol )
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk255/mart300r/IMG_0796.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk255/mart300r/IMG_0793.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk255/mart300r/IMG_0823.jpg
Little vice mount slip rolls are all you need
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk255/mart300r/IMG_0818.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk255/mart300r/IMG_0821.jpg
You'll work it out I bet as soon as you print one you'll be like I'm a bloody idiot I knew that's what I had to do lol good luck my friend.

[Billy Golightly]

Hey Mart,

I've got the program - but I was really only able to use it to develop the templates for the full length of each section. I know you can change angles with it and stuff, but how do you make it divide up the total length, and keep the same degree of taper? Like in my screenshot here, The cone modeled is the "A2" section, on the dimensional chart on the left in the screen shot. And in the picture below of the cardboard template I made, its the second piece from the right. But how do you make the program divide the length of that down into multiple parts? I know this has to be silly simple but I just can't seem to get my head wrapped around it...

191061


191060

[Dirtcrasher]

Billy, I think that paper exhaust may get a bit hot!! :lol:

Hope that program helps you out, I wanna see this beast!

DC

[Billy Golightly]

Okay, after having slept on this (with a migraine, but I digress) I've made a little bit of progress mentally. I *think* where I'm short here is a mathematical formula that Mart probably has or figured out, in order to DIVIDE my cones into sections.

Lets say for example the first major tapered section of my pipe are the following dimensions;

47mm Entry Diameter,
530mm in Length
90mm Exit Diameter

So lets say I want to make this tapered cone of the pipe into 20 equal sections. I can divide 530mm by 20, and I end up with each sectioned piece being 26.5mm in length.

However, my current stumbling block is figuring out and calculating the entry, and exit diameters for each one of these 20 sections.

If I figure that out, I can then plug the dimensions into ConeLayout, with my desired angles, and I can print each individual section on a template like Mart did. Or, like I seen Arlan from LED Performance do on his Facebook https://www.facebook.com/pages/LED-Performance/258905124138569?fref=photo (FYI, if you look really close in this picture from him, you can see the same little template indicator that Mart has in his pictures from Cone Layout) So I'm just missing this one very piece of crucial math..

191134


If there are any math gurus that want to explain this to me, or all of us, please, feel free :D

[Thorpe]

I don't understand the math, but love the direction you are going... Hang in there Billy, you have almost got it licked!

[Billy Golightly]

I've been quizzing a few people about the math on this, Its definitely above my pay grade also, but the best response I have thats sort of leading me in the right direction so far is something that amounts to calculating the volume of the cone (Which is actually I learned technically called a "Frustum" since it doesn't come to an exact point. There are conical frustums and pyramid frustums.) and then using what I guess is come calculus (way, way above my pay grade) to graph it using an integral and then using degree of angle the side taper is to calculate each piece individually based on the heights, starting at the bottom and working your way up. Which is pretty much exactly what I'm needing to do I think, but even though this person explained it to me in laymans terms, I still have no idea how to do it...:lol:

This page helps me understand a little bit, but still doesn't answer my question really, per say...http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/geometry-solids/conicalfrustum.php


I also posted this question in the math section on Yahoo Answers out of shear desperation.

[NeverLift]

Billy,

Not that you are looking for this technique at all but with all your knowledge on metal fab something like this might interest you. I just stumbled across youtube surfing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppXRMTeR2NQ

[Billy Golightly]

I think I might have this one cracked. It works on paper, but I am going to be printing some templates across the next few days to verify and know for sure.

[C.J]

I think I might have this one cracked. It works on paper, but I am going to be printing some templates across the next few days to verify and know for sure.

Ok Billy,, this thread was on the bottom of the second page that's no bueno!!!! Lol


Any progress on your crack pi-I mean pipe building theory yet? DID IT WORK OR DID YA HAVE TO GET A BIGGER HAMER?! :Bounce

[atc007]

Whew. I hadn't seen the pipe updates till now..Makes a $900 custom 500R pipe look cheap! If I was you Billy, I wouldn't be able to quit till I saw this through also.. But wow. What a learning curve. That paper pipe is a thing of beauty. I can't wait to see the real deal!

[Billy Golightly]

Everytime I think I have it licked, I find a new and exciting way to further complicate it :lol:

Really though, I just need a good solid day or two to screw with it. I have not really had the time to unfortunately. Good news is, I did get my printer at home working again, so I can do templates on the fly (vs having to model up at home, pdf, and print them at work like I was before). Instead of printing paper and tracing over to construction paper board and cut templates out with scissors, I'm going to get some 8.5x11 sheet of that construction paper and print directly on it. It'll save me a step in trying to trace and cut things out basically twice in a row.

Dividing up into sections I've figured out. What I need now is to use the paper templates in a real world application and decide whether I need to divide say a 350mm long section into 20 pieces the entire length of the 350mm, or make it be 15 pieces until the last 6 inches, or the middle 6 inches, or wherever. Basically I have to determine where I *dont* need to section and can use just a straight section. Which, on this pipe, isn't going to be very much.

My methodology for doing that at this point is to divide up the entire length of each taper into equal parts, print templates, and then as I'm building it on the bike, just count to whatever section # I'm at that can be straight afterwards (for whatever length), then go back into the template program, and basically say "Okay, instead of having the next 6 sections be 22mm in length, with a 15 degree slice on each end, I can have one piece, 132mm long with a 0 degree slice on one end, and then a 15 on the other". That'll eliminate a lot of unnecessary parts (to just go straight), and welding for me. Because right now as I have it calculated out, I'm at 54 sections without the stinger tube, or the exhaust port flange sleeve. So, if i can knock that down any, by all means, I want to do it.

Something else I ran into, is that early on I figured I'd find a nice width for a section (I settled on about 22mm) that would give me enough width to get 15 degree slices on each end of the each section without the narrow side being impossible to weld, basically. So I'd calculate out the entire length of a taper into 22mm sections. Well, what would then happen when I got into my template program, I found as the pipe got larger, the slices at that same consistent 15 degrees made the thinner side thinner and thinner, until it wasn't possible because each 15 degree side would overlap ( Like this /\ basically). So, I had to increase my width of my sections as the pipe got larger in diameter.

Speaking of that, since i don't particularly believe in trade secrets, I'll explain how to section the pipe up equally. This might be a little bit difficult without a drawing, but you can probably follow it as the math is really very elementary, and like normal, I was over-complicating things by a significant degree. I have to thank a guy at my office, Irvin Dees, for basically taking this home and figuring it out for me in one night because I for the life of me couldn't get it...

So lets use the first main taper section of my real world exhaust I'm doing to be building, the specs are;

530mm long. 47mm Entry, 90mm Exit.

First, decide how many sections you want. Lets say you want each section to be about the same 22mm in length I'm using. So you'd divide 530(The length of the original full tapered section) by 22mm. That gives us on the calculator, 24.090 pieces. Obviously, I can't make .09 of a section, I need a round number. But 24 pieces is darn close - so you take 530/24=22.08mm. In a real world application, 1mm is about .043. .08 of 1mm is not even a gnats ass, but for calculating purposes, I suggest keeping the two decimal points or you can get lost pretty easily.


Next, You take the exit diameter, and subtract the entry diameter from it. 90-47=43. This is the difference between your entry and exit diameters.

Then, you take that 43mm, and divide it by your amount of sections you want. So it'd be 43/24=1.79

This 1.79mm, is the ADDITIONAL INCREASE in each section, from the previous diameter, as long as you keep each section exactly 24mm in length, since the taper is at the same constant angle from start to finish. If you change the length of any of the sections, you have to re-calculate.

So, the very first piece of this pipe coming off the exhaust flange I now know will be;

#1: 47mm entry, 24mm in length, 48.79mm exit diamter
#2: 48.79mm Entry, 24mm in length, 50.58mm exit diameter
3 50.85mm Entry, 24mm in length, 52.37mm exit diameter.
4
5
6
etc...

I can then take those dimensions, and plug into cone lay out, the angle of the slice I want on each end, and it spits out a nice flat pattern template like Mart, and LED have that I posted above. This is the key to making a template for each individual section I was missing. However, Keeping mindful of the issue I mentioned above, that as the diameter increases to a certain point, the length of each section as to increase to accommodate the angle of the slice from each end, so you don't run out of material. What I do is watch the templates its generating, and I scale to 100% and actually measure the narrowest portion on my monitor with a pair of calipers. If it gets below 10mm in width, I either increase the length of the piece (and re-calculate) or I lessen the angle from something like 15 degrees on each end, to something like 10 on each end.

If I need to change the length, I just calculate the remaining length, and starting diameter from wherever I left off at. Say I'm at section #10 (So It'd be 220mm shorter from my original starting length of 530mm, leaving 310mm length). I'd know my last diameter at piece #10 was 64.90mm, so i would treat that as the start, and run through the same process I outlined above of determining how many pieces total I'd need after setting a new width, and how much to increase the diameter each time.

There is really no way to specifically figure out this exactly without some trial and error where to put the straight sections. The first 8-10 inches or so will of course have the most sections as you do the 180 degree turn to go back under the front heading towards the right side of the bike.

So I do not have all my sections exactly figured out until I do that, but I'm darn close. I could do all 54 pieces right now and just do the entire thing in sections, but I want to refine and get in as many straights as I can for simplicity and also aesthetics. Having a straight place made up of nothing but sectionals just counter stacked from one another would look a bit odd I think.

Clear as mud? :D

Not out of the woods yet but I definitetly have a handle on it I think. The next question becomes, once I have all these templates figured out, do I cut these things myself, or do I take the easy route and just send some water jet people my flat pattern dxf (autocad) files and say "make these for me" where all I have to do is roll and weld...

[Dave8338]

I think you choice of having them water jetted, is the best call. Sure, you can spend the time but, do you really want to? Also, the welding will go much smoother if all the edges are perfect and uniform. Less likely to burn through and have to fill a pin hole (or worse)...

FANTASTIC work you have going ! ! !

[C.J]

I say experiment with your theory. At least on a couple pieces. If it works THEN spend the money to have everything cut for you. It would SUCK to spend the money and then find out it didn't work out right ya know?

[El Camexican]

Everytime I read these posts my head hurts more than when I time cams. I've decided to just wait for the movie to come out.

[Billy Golightly]

Everytime I read these posts my head hurts more than when I time cams. I've decided to just wait for the movie to come out.



I am actually, kind of, making one based on this thing, roughly :lol: It might all end up going in the Trikefest documentary though

[Billy Golightly]

Well, here is what the first 15 inches of pipe looks like. These things were kind of a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro to cut out with scissors. Going to take a lot of practice to really get this down pat I think.

192112

[C.J]

Wow it took some diggin to find the thread. How goes it, Billy? Any word yet?

[Dirtcrasher]

I believe he is in Trikefest mode now. These creations take time, money and a strong brain. I'm sure Billy will get it done.

Your in Louisiana, get your butt to TRIKEFEST 14!!

[Billy Golightly]

Yeah, I have not worked on it anymore. I've decided I really wantto just have the templates made on water jet/laser and then roll and weld them. Taking the time to source someone adequately to do that has been the challenge so far. I talked to one place that would sell me a4x10 sheet of 20ga sheet metal for about $50 which was cheap enough to cut and make all the patterns myself, but they haven't stocked it and I haven't gotten a call back, and it hasn't been a high priority to stay on them. I think making the paper templates and having them then laser or water jet cut on sheet metal is the smartest way to do it. Cutting them by hand is doable and cheaper I'm sure but - time consuming as all get out and the attrition rate on cutting those compound curvatures will take a while to figure out.

How to keep them from getting mixed up and have them labeled right, I have no idea. Thats another thing I can't get my head wrapped around if the shop or place that does the cutting will be able to do that since the first several sections are almost identical to the naked eye.

[C.J]

I believe he is in Trikefest mode now. These creations take time, money and a strong brain. I'm sure Billy will get it done.

Your in Louisiana, get your butt to TRIKEFEST 14!!

I planned to go, had money put aside for everything and all that. But some stuff happened and the money went towards some much more important bills. So I'm stuck at home. Again.



That's a good point, Billy. If they cut them out would you be able to lay the templates down over each piece to see what piece it was?

[Billy Golightly]

Probably could get close, yes. Thats like 60 some pieces +/- though, and even labeling the paper template versions is kind of a pain in the ass keeping them straight. When building the pipe out of paper, like I ran into before, you can only do so much at a time before the whole thing just falls in on itself from the weight and tape not holding and things like that. I know it can be done but its currently beyond the scope of my patience to do it in that manner :)

[Red Rider]

How to keep them from getting mixed up and have them labeled right, I have no idea. Thats another thing I can't get my head wrapped around if the shop or place that does the cutting will be able to do that since the first several sections are almost identical to the naked eye.I think you're looking at it all wrong Billy. Getting them all mixed up will turn your laborious pipe-making project into a fun & entertaining jigsaw puzzle. :p

[C.J]

Another very good point. Damn,,,, ah well. You're smarter than I am so you'll get her figured out and it'll be something so simple we will all facepalm ourselves out of sheer impressment lmao,, Good luck!!

Hey wait,, what about sending the templates to a pipe builder and just having the pieces cut out? Don't tell them what it's for or anything or tell them it's for a Polaris or something. Just so they won't try an jack your hard work. Maybe find someone that you know that's close with a pipe builder,,,,, Idk just a thought. Cause someone who does 2-stroke pipes will know exactly how they need to be labeled and cut ya know? But on the same token: that's a lot of hard work and time you've got into it and it would be similar to making the most bomb arse pizza ever and giving the recipe to papa johns to have it cooked for you.

[Billy Golightly]

I think you're looking at it all wrong Billy. Getting them all mixed up will turn your laborious pipe-making project into a fun & entertaining jigsaw puzzle. :p

yes...thats just what I'm looking for, another variable to add into the equation of this thing...:lol:

[tecaterob]

My friends shop build one of the pilot 400's and it had monster torque. It was built about 10 years ago and still running without a rebuild.

Can't wait to see more....

[Billy Golightly]

TF done and gone so I can get back to other business finally.


Just dropped each of my pipe section templates into a cad file and sent off to a water jet company I spoke with today to get a quote in both mild steel and also stainless. Hope to hear from them soon.

[El Camexican]

TF done and gone so I can get back to other business finally.


Just dropped each of my pipe section templates into a cad file and sent off to a water jet company I spoke with today to get a quote in both mild steel and also stainless. Hope to hear from them soon.

Look into purging the pipe with Argon if you go with SS, the welds will be much stronger.

[jadleybray]

SS is not a good idea for a pipe, they just don't hold up to the vibration's. Too brittle

[Billy Golightly]

Water jet company could'nt read my files - so Hagen and I coordinating on this one and will see if we can come up with some fine German laser cut material perhaps :)

[Billy Golightly]

I ended up enlisting the help of Hagen and the wonderful work of German engineering and equipment to get these cut for me. He sent me a message yesterday that they are back from being laser cut, and that my stainless ones are at a heat treater now being annealed (So they won't be as hard/brittle as stainless typically is). So I'll have coming to me 2 sets of steel templates, 2 sets of stainless steel templates.

Perhaps beteen enough material to make 4 pipes, I'll come up with something decent :)

[El Camexican]

Interesting. I've always thought that the issue with stainless being brittle was after the welding had taken place. In other words I thought any stress reliving or annealing would be done post welding. Are you planning to do that anyway?

By the way, there is a process call passivation, or pickling done with a wicked acid paste (wear protection!) http://www.picklingandpassivation.com/k-2-pickling-paste2.html This returns the welds and surrounding areas to a silver color and restores the corrosion resistance of the stainless steel. The paste also strips anodizing off aluminum if you have the need, just remember that one good whiff will strip the flesh off your throat and if you plan to let any go down the drain pipe better chase it with a few hundred gallons of water to neutralize it.

[Billy Golightly]

I think as long as you weld stainless with a back purge so the welds don't sugar, that shouldn't be too much of an issue. I have a set of stainless steel 250R pegs I welded up (living a little dangerous, I know) and haven't had any issues with them yet.

[atc007]

Stainless 250R pegs?? Alrighty then! Hope you wear good boots lol. This coming from a guy who used to weld cast, a LOT. And it's still to this day holding. Very interesting.... Why stainless anyhow? Because you can,I suppose lol?! There is a 3 wheeler guy an hour from me who works stainless for a living. Guess he's not a member here :( He would surely have some ideas. Not that what you're doing won't work. I just worry about it being awful brittle.But our milk tanks,pipelines and all milk handling equipment is stainless and a work of beauty all in one. I'm sure this pipe will be too. What a project :)

[C.J]

A fella on the QR board built a hand coned stainless pipe for a custom chro-mo framed, YFZ front clip 250/500 hybrid. He just back purged the welding and hasn't had any issue with it being brittle. and that's an "LT250R" chassis with a 540cc zilla engine in it. The vibes are more than likely about the same as the Rotax mill you're building here, and trikes disperse vibes better than quads. So I think the stainless pipe is going to work out. Just my optimism and if Billy's welding skills are anything on par with your video skills, well,,,, you'll be just fine

[Billy Golightly]

My first venture will be with the steel version anyways - I'm getting enough material to make it both ways.

This ended up being designed where it is nothing but sections and cones the entire way from the exhaust flange, to the stinger tube, so there wont be any long sections like there are on regular pipes, it'll make it a bit interesting looking when its done I think.

[Billy Golightly]

Heres my goal look....lol


197646
Jolly Moto pipes, from Italy.

[rdonald1979]

Those are some GD beautiful pies. Good luck.

[C.J]

Here ya go, Billy. Looks like he did get the pipe all finished and rode on it some as well.

Says he used 18ga stainless

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/IMG_0280_zps78fefcdd.mp4


www.suzukiquadracerhq.com/lt500r-exhaust/my-stainless-lt-500r-exhaust-project/msg34170/#msg34170

[C.J]

Any update?

[Billy Golightly]

Checking the mailbox everyday like a little school kid!

[El Camexican]

Heres my goal look....lol


197646
Jolly Moto pipes, from Italy.

Wow! That is art. I could never ride with one of those on for fear of damaging it.

[Billy Golightly]

Mine should hypothetically actually look pretty close to that - I have a similar # of sections, so provided I get everything rolled evenly,formed, and welded, it should look pretty close to that...


Jolly Motos though, without a doubt, beautiful pieces though for sure. Thats been my supreme level of awesomeness on pipes for several years now. You'll notice there isn't a single abrupt change in angle or "pinched" corner anywhere because of the # of sections they used and how small most of them are in length.

[Thorpe]

Nothing like having 60 feet of tig weld into a pipe! Reminds me of tigging in a Model A roof panel, or some of the custom Boss Hoss tanks we built back at the rod shop...

[El Camexican]

Nothing like having 60 feet of tig weld into a pipe! Reminds me of tigging in a Model A roof panel, or some of the custom Boss Hoss tanks we built back at the rod shop...

Ever look inside a rocket thruster? I swear there is at least a mile of flawless TIG weld in each thruster. It's nuts! Whoever welds those could likely weld up a complete 2 stroke pipe on his coffee break!
198310

[86T3]

Robots dont take coffee breaks, camex

[El Camexican]

Robots dont take coffee breaks, camex

Haha I'm pretty sure no robots worked on the ones I saw in the Smithsonian.

[Billy Golightly]

Tracking finally updated - Just left NJ yesterday, so they made it across the pond atleast!

[Billy Golightly]

It made it!!!!!!

The customs slip says "Sheet metal puzzle - 90 pcs" :lol::D Thanks Hagen!


198824

[Louis Mielke]

Thats a nice looking pipe right there!

[Thorpe]

Thats a nice looking pipe right there!

Some assembly required....

[oscarmayer]

hahahya billy, you got yourself into a pretty big pickle!

[Billy Golightly]

Oh I'll get it - don't you guys worry. Just going to take a bit of time :D

[El Camexican]

Is there a picture on the box you can copy?

[Billy Golightly]

199834199833199832

One major hurdle out of the way - all the sections have been rolled and welded on edge. I still need to do some finish hammer forming (the last edges will always be flat on stuff that is slip rolled since there is a space inbetween the center of each roll) this has to be sort of hand formed over a mandrel (a piece of pipe or round stock for me probably). A little bit of a learning curve getting these things rolled and putting my little harborfreight slip roll unit to use and actually making it form like it should.

A frustrating component in the beginning was how the sections wanted to twist basically left and right as they were being rolled where the ends would not match up. Finally, I realized, if I rolled them against one far edge of the machine, it would sort of act like a guide as they went around and help keep them straight. Thats not a fool proof method, and the wider the section is, the worse it is (this may be partly due to the brilliant chi-com quality of the roller adjusters and alignment on this particular unit also). Basically, no matter how much you try and make them perfect, you still have to just grab them with your hands and twist/form them into submission and proper alignment.

When it came to welding them, I basically put each section back in the slip roll, rotated to the seam on top. I then was able to take my left hand and kind of squeeze them together and make sure the edges were properly aligned and do a fusion tack weld with my tig welder to get them stuck together. I could then come back by and do a weld the rest of the way across the seam. Occasionally on very troublesome ones I would put a pair of vice grips on one edge and then tack the opposite while holding it together and that helped me out. The very final piece that tapers down to the stinger tube section was a royal trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro to do because it was such a short piece, an abrupt taper, and its angle cut ends but I finally got it and it doesnt look half bad.

So, still left to do is;

#1: finish forming the edges and seams to round out.
#2: Hit with belt sander to ensure all edges and sides are good and flat for perfect fitment.
#3: Start stacking and working my way around the frame and chassis..

I think I might try and do a little video tutorial with the stainless sections sometime - its an interesting process, a lot of variables, for sure. I would like to start working on snaking around this weekend. I have an issue with the water cooler on my welder and I'm almost out of Argon so I'm not sure I'll be able to get to it, but definitely gonna try.


In the interim here is my old man, holding up his bounty from yesterdays efforts with me. (Not pictured is another "stringer" of sections that makes up the total amount)

199831

[Billy Golightly]

I just realized this project will be A YEAR OLD soon....


dear lord, where does the time go

[Billy Golightly]

Pipe has been slow going. I ran into some issues with my welder and had to replace some hoses on it, and then been tied up the last several weekends with other things. Old man and I worked on it some on Sunday, and got this done. I think my argon controller is fixing to go out on it also...


202223

I have serious concerns how I'm going to fit all of this in there, at the largest point the pipe is 6inches around. I might need to extend out the kick starter shaft, or something. This is till one of the smallest sections and areas, here.

Some spring hangers I bent up out of 1/8in welding rod.

202226

And a little bit earlier, first coming off of the slip joint on the exhaust flange.
202227

[ONEBAD350X]

superb welding and fab skills man! looks awesome!

[tecaterob]

Looking good!!!

[El Camexican]

Old man and I worked on it some on Sunday

I envy you, between my Dad and I one of us would end up having to digging a grave for the other before we got the first 6 inches tacked together:lol: Enjoy the experience.:beer

[Billy Golightly]

We definitely take turns throwing dirt on one another now and then...:lol:


Those are actually two pieces - not welded in the middle yet where you can see that one gap.

I am still having a hell of a time getting everything to match and line up, I'm sure its just going to take practice and learning techniques, but this definitely will not resemble a jolly moto on the first try :)


202277

[C.J]

Didn't you get enough pieces cut to be able to build 4 pipes? Or did you just stick with one?

All your seams look pretty tight, and I'm sure you can weld thin sheet like its nothing, so it'll be a pretty damn good looking pipe

[Billy Golightly]

I got enough for 2 - originally it was going to be 4 but I wanted to make sure I had all the correct pieces before I had that many made. The second one is the stainless material

[Billy Golightly]

A bit more progress. This pipe is just massive - Its really hard to tell how big it actually is in the pictures. I am going to have to do some clearancing for my kicker in one edge and also do a bit of re-thinking on my back coolant line routing because it just takes up so much space. I have 14 pieces of the pipe itself left in sections, and then I need a stinger tube and the silencer. as much as I have left on the pipe, stinger tube will probably end up being pretty short. I think I am starting to kind of find my stride on making this thing as far as procedurally. Keep trying and learning little things as I go. I do know that next time I make one, I will intentionally make each section a little bit longer (like 1/16th or 3/32nd) to account for the re-flattening on the belt sander, because I had them cut exact and by the time you surface on the belt sander, you end up with them being a bit hard to mate back up occasionally.

202483


202486202484202485202487202489

[Red Rider]

You're right, the pipe doesn't look that big, until you see it filling practically the entire gap between the clutch cover & the fuel tank, then you get a real sense of this thing's actual proportions.

[trike savior]

What a work of art. Can't wait for a video of it going Ying ing ing ing ing ing ing. (Best spelling representation of a 2 smoker I can think of.) Keep working and I'll keep drooling.

[fabiodriven]

Looking fantastic William. Oh these crazy projects we undertake all in the name of trikedom. Hopefully I'll be buzzing some beads myself tonight.

[big specht]

It looks like a suit of armor

[Billy Golightly]

It looks like a suit of armor

Hahaha! Yes, it does, I hadn't quite noticed that till you mentioned it, but it does have that shape and finish to it a bit.

I still can't get over how big it is - I and I even opted for the smaller more compact single stage diffuser instead of the double which normally makes the pipes even bigger actually. Its crazy. I guess between the CC size, and the RPM I set it up for max hp at (7500) this is where its ended up at, but damn, its massive in person! Freakin stove pipe, basically.

[atc007]

A bit more progress. This pipe is just massive - Its really hard to tell how big it actually is in the pictures. I am going to have to do some clearancing for my kicker in one edge and also do a bit of re-thinking on my back coolant line routing because it just takes up so much space. I have 14 pieces of the pipe itself left in sections, and then I need a stinger tube and the silencer. as much as I have left on the pipe, stinger tube will probably end up being pretty short. I think I am starting to kind of find my stride on making this thing as far as procedurally. Keep trying and learning little things as I go. I do know that next time I make one, I will intentionally make each section a little bit longer (like 1/16th or 3/32nd) to account for the re-flattening on the belt sander, because I had them cut exact and by the time you surface on the belt sander, you end up with them being a bit hard to mate back up occasionally.

202483


202486202484202485202487202489

NEXT time.. You are a glutton for punishment aren't you! Looking great,:)

[El Camexican]

I am going to have to do some clearancing for my kicker

Don't forget about your foot! Looks like a size 7 will be the max that fits in there.

Geez, I just had a vision of that 400cc beast kicking back on you with your foot under that stove pipe, be careful.

[Billy Golightly]

Yeah - things are getting really, really cozy in there. I put on I think it was 3 or 4 more sections during the week. I'm going to try and get damn close to finishing it this weekend but right now I've ran into the corner of the frame (litterally). I can't quite make the bend around the inside of it, and clearance the hump on the kicker gears on the side case, so I am going to have to go back up a ways and cut a few section loose and turn them - see what I can get out of it.

[Billy Golightly]

202966

In the shittiest hardest spot right now, basically.

[El Camexican]

Geez, I hope all your carb screws are on the left side.:lol:

[xrider]

Looking great Billy!

[rdonald1979]

WOW that thing is freekin huge. Going to be fun kicking over!

[Dirtcrasher]

My god, that's allot to do!!

My hats off to you and any pipe builders.

[Billy Golightly]

Got the final section tacked on...

omg, I'm glad thats over. Still gotta do stinger tubing and the silencer, but this part is over with now at least.

203054

[robertc]

Perseverance paid off, looking forward to seeing it all welded up!

[fabiodriven]

You do that today? We were probably welding at the same time.

[Billy Golightly]

Just to give you guys an idea of how tight this thing ended up being in there...

203104203105203106203107203108203109203110

[slashfan7964]

I hope that shroud doesn't end up melting.

[RPMRestorations]

beautiful work!

[fabiodriven]

It's really something when you finish a big project like that. That's certainly something to hang your hat on buddy.