How to Bypass neutral switch????

[sledneck0695]

I have a 85 big red 250es and the neutral light wont come on so it won't start. Also my reverse light and the headlight doesn't work either. I tried just cutting the neutral wire and running it directly to the positive post on the battery and still nothing and the bulbs not blown. I also tried following the wire back to the little box that it gets plugged into and cutting it from there and running it to the battery and still nothing. So I have no idea what to try next :wondering. Any help info pictures of other peoples anything would be great thanks.

[jeswinehart]

You need to ground the wires, not hook em up to hot. Right behind the engine is another connection for the neutral/reverse wiring that may have come apart. It is a real pain in the bottom to see/locate.

john

[Flyingw]

Stop cutting wires unless you know what you are cutting and what is running through the wire!!!! Don't do that

[dougspcs]

You're butching wires and connecting to hot with absolutely no idea where they go or how the circuit is designed..

STOP NOW before you do horrible damage to your trike..or worse cause a short that ends up with a battery exploding in your face!!

And John is right, the neutral switch is a ground for the circuit..if the switch isn't grounding because of a corroded connection then this may be the only reason your trike won't start. Did you check there 1st?

If not get a cheap test meter and a copy of the electrical diagram.

Electric flows like water in a specific path, you just need to follow the path and see where the flow stops!! Switches and connectors are the number one suspect..

[barnett468]

I have a 85 big red 250es and the neutral light wont come on so it won't start. Also my reverse light and the headlight doesn't work either. I tried just cutting the neutral wire and running it directly to the positive post on the battery and still nothing and the bulbs not blown. I also tried following the wire back to the little box that it gets plugged into and cutting it from there and running it to the battery and still nothing. So I have no idea what to try next :wondering. Any help info pictures of other peoples anything would be great thanks.Below is an orig service manual with wiring diagrams. It might take up to 5 minutes to load. There are also links to wiring diagrams on the home page of the site.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/honda/1984_200es_bigred.pdf

[MonroeMike]

Below is an orig service manual with wiring diagrams. It might take up to 5 minutes to load. There are also links to wiring diagrams on the home page of the site.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/honda/1984_200es_bigred.pdf

Wrong manual. You can get the correct one here, from kb0nly.
http://kb0nly.info/ATC/index.php?dir=ATC250ES%2F&download=Honda+ATC+250es+Big+Red+%2885-87%29+Service+Manual.pdf

[tri again]

Dear fellow mainer.
Check fuses first. There's an odd one, looks like a double open end wrench inside a rubber boot and inside a plastic case with tiny phillips screws. and a couple normal fuses near the headlight and I forget where else. Owners manual should tell you and is avail on this site.
The neutral light is a ground circuit that conects to switches under a sheet metal shield near the brake pedal...green and black wires.
keeps it from starting in gear. I've had a few just get loose and oily and a few that broke with sticks and twigs.
That sheetmetal can be bent out of the way to get to it.
those switches are like 10 bucks. but usually only need to be cleaned.

Is this machine new to you?
Are you sure it's in neutral? all the way down to neutral and 5 up, right?

[sledneck0695]

Yeah I'm pretty familiar with it and yes it's in neutral. prior to not having it come on at all it would sometimes come on and sometimes it wouldn't or it'd blink. If I just cut that wire and ground it than how is gonna be getting power to illuminate the bulb????

[Howdy]

Yeah I'm pretty familiar with it and yes it's in neutral. prior to not having it come on at all it would sometimes come on and sometimes it wouldn't or it'd blink. If I just cut that wire and ground it than how is gonna be getting power to illuminate the bulb????

It don't get power from that wire. It get's a ground from that wire.
Howdy

[El Camexican]

Yeah I'm pretty familiar with it and yes it's in neutral. prior to not having it come on at all it would sometimes come on and sometimes it wouldn't or it'd blink. If I just cut that wire and ground it than how is gonna be getting power to illuminate the bulb????

Think of it this way (coming from an electronically challenged individual). You need to complete a circle in order for things to work. A faulty switch, broken wire or corroded terminal represents a break in your circle. You know how people always say “shut the light off”? They should really be saying “shut the light on, open the light off”, because that is what is really happening, they are closing the circuit to complete the circle and turn the light on and opening the circuit to turn it off. Your starter button and neutral light only have a complete circle when the trike is in neutral and the key (if it has one) is on.

Start soldering and heat shrink tubing those cut wires back together and fix your ride properly. The guys posting here that know your ride will get you through it, PLEASE don’t cut any more wires.

[Flyingw]

To answer your question Sledneck, Positive power is always sitting at the light bulb and on the solenoid. What those two things don't have tp make them work is ground. The neutral switch on the case is actuated by a tab that's attached to the end of the shift drum. In neutral, the tap touches the tip on the switch providing a path to ground to illuminate the light and enable the starter solenoid. Its easier to actuate the ground than it is to actuate the positive power. The tips of those switches do wear out (both neutral and reverse). They have copper tips so they are a wear item. Yes you can attach the wire for the neutral light directly to ground but it also makes your starter button live all the time. Accidentally hitting the start button while the engine is running will damage the starter and starter reduction gear train so that's why that circuit is there. Its the same thing for the reverse light but it only turns on the light.

We don't mean to be so dickish but we field questions all the time from guys who hack up their wiring and then ask why their trikes don't run. He are here to help, not criticize.

[tri again]

Yeah I'm pretty familiar with it and yes it's in neutral. prior to not having it come on at all it would sometimes come on and sometimes it wouldn't or it'd blink. If I just cut that wire and ground it than how is gonna be getting power to illuminate the bulb????

Yeah, don't cut anymore.
If you take the wire off the neutral/reverse switches down by the footbrake, it may just work if you clean it and put it back on or just ground it to the engine. Nothing can really go wrong with those switches, they just short to ground if the internal gearshifting parts let it snap free.
If you simply ground those wires to the frame or engine, that makes it very easy to run onesself over since they usually start so easily.

[sledneck0695]

Alright I'll connect them wires back together but I can't find where they ground to????? I"ll be home in a few days and look some more so any help on that would be appreciated.

[Flyingw]

We are here to help. Wiring is not as intimidating as you may think. Reading the diagram is like reading a road map.

[Chopsaw]

Could be the key switch . Don't leave that out . I've had the light flash , or not shine ,,, wiggle or cycle the key and it worked . Just bringing that up .

[tri again]

Could be the key switch . Don't leave that out . I've had the light flash , or not shine ,,, wiggle or cycle the key and it worked . Just bringing that up .

Thanks chop. I forgot about that. Had one but cleaned the contacts long ago so I forgot about it. GREAT post on how to clean/fix them on here.
Key on would give flickering neutrallight. so I ad to back it off a couple thousandths to get a steady light.

[MonroeMike]

...GREAT post on how to clean/fix them on here...

http://www.mikesatvfix.com/articles/key-repair/keyfix.htm

[sledneck0695]

So I took the negative coming from the light and grounded it and still no light and I cleaned the switch before trying to ground it and still nothing...... Any other Ideas????? Really need help on this asap.

[sledneck0695]

Just cleaned the key switch and it was corroded so cleaned everything up like it says to do in the link above and still nothing. The negative coming from the light is still grounded.

[tri again]

Deep breath.
So did you reconnect the wires you cut?
You have to ground the wire coming from the safety switches by the brake pedal and that will complete the circuit.

Now have you found the godBless'ed oddball fuse in the plastic case held in with 2 phillips screws in a rubber boot thing?
Looks like stamped tinfoil.
I forget what it does but that's where I look when the wifes trike won't start.
Somewhere hidden behind the cdi black box unit.

I'll go look but it should be shown in either the owners or shop manual.

Bulbs not burnt?
will it kickstart?

[sledneck0695]

Yeah re connected all the wires that I cut and plugged the wires into the switch near the brake pedal and still nothing. And yeah that fuse is good. Now I grounded the negative coming out of the neutral bulb before it goes into the plastic connector. That's okay isn't it????

[sledneck0695]

Actually no I was thinking of the fuses in the fuse box. I haven't checked that one yet. the neutral light bulbs not burnt out and I haven't tried kick starting it since I did that. But my electric start doesn't work anyways neither does my head light or reverse light. The guy I bought it from a few years ago obviously didn't take care of it. first it was the reverse light that went, than neutral light would flicker and once in a while not turn on than the electric start went than the headlight.

[tri again]

There is another thread going on right now about the goofyfuse.

[sledneck0695]

Quick update I went out last night and that fuse was broken so I put them together and there getting power but still no neutral light so I'm going to get a multimeter and start chasing wires.

[Flyingw]

Start at the switch on the engine. Put it in neutral. You should have ground continuity. If not, the tip of the switch is worn.

[Chopsaw]

Quick update I went out last night and that fuse was broken so I put them together and there getting power but still no neutral light so I'm going to get a multimeter and start chasing wires.


Did you replace the fuse link or just connect the wires ? Put a fuse in it then listen to what Flying W has to say , try what he says .

[wonderboy]

A multi-meter will be your best friend.

First, follow FlyingW's advice.

Here is my advice, which is really just general information for wiring troubleshooting.

Start out with the basics. Don't assume anything. This means first things to do:
1. Use a multimeter and measure the battery voltage (make sure it is good)
2. Connect the positive lead of the meter to the battery positive terminal and then using the ground lead, confirm that the various locations on your machine are grounded. Pretty much all metal on the three wheeler should be grounded, but specifically check the frame and the motor.
3. Now do the reverse of step 2. Connect your ground lead to the battery negative terminal and use the positive lead to test out the +12V wire along the path from the battery up to the ignition switch and through it. This is where you will need the wiring diagram to look up wire colors.

I checked the wiring diagram and it looks like your symptoms (no headlight, no neutral light, no reverse light) can all be tied to a single bad +12V feed.

Here is the path (with wire colors from the wiring diagram in the service manual):
A. Heavy gauge lead from battery goes to one terminal of the starter solenoid.
B. From this same terminal, a red wire goes through a 20 amp fuse and feeds the ignition switch. (first test point with meter).
C. Ignition switch puts power on a black wire (all black) which feeds multiple locations but the important one is the 15 amp fuse in the forward fuse box. (next test point)
D. On the other side of the 15 amp fuse, the wire should be black with brown stripe. This wire feeds three important devices: the indicator lamps, the headlamp switch, and the starter solenoid. You should confirm that with the key switch on, that you have battery voltage on this wire (black with brown stripe).

There is more tracing to do after that point, but since all three items (indicator lamps, headlight, and starter) all don't work, the issue should be somewhere in the up-front in the power feed traced out above.

Remember, the multimeter is your friend. Sorry if the above information is overwhelming, but take everyone's advice one step at a time and you'll figure it out. (just put down the wire cutters and nobody will get hurt). :p

[sledneck0695]

Got the meter this morning and I figured I'd test the positive that goes into the neutral bulb and it had power going to it but the light wouldn't illuminate so I pulled the spark plug out and sure enough it had spark and now it runs and drives normally but the neutral light still wont come on or the reverse light and I replaced the headlight bulb because I took that apart and it was broken put the new one in and still nothing. I don't really care to much about the neutral and reverse lights as long as it runs but it would be nice to get the headlight working.

[wonderboy]

Ok. So here is your headlight troubleshooting guide.

1. Confirm the ground. The green wire (anywhere in the harness, but especially at the headlight connector) is your ground wire. Confirm ground in one of two ways:
A. Use your voltmeter on "Resistance" or "Ohms" mode and measure the resistance between the green wire at the headlamp bulb and directly to the battery negative terminal
B. Use your voltmeter on "Voltage" mode and connect your negative lead to the green wire and the positive lead to the battery positive terminal. (should see full battery volts)

2. Confirm power is at the headlight switch. The headlamp switch is powered when the ignition switch is on by the black wire with brown stripe. Confirm that with the ignition switch on, you are seeing battery voltage on this wire (black with brown stripe).

3. With the key switch on, move the headlight switch to low beam. Check for power on the white wire (negative lead of meter at battery negative post).

4. With the key switch on, move the headlight switch to high beam. Check for power on the blue wire (negative lead of meter at battery negative post).

This is it. If you confirm that you have a good ground, and that you are getting power to the wires, your light will work. Let us know if any of the above checks come back bad and we'll go from there.

[Atc70noob]

Sorry to thread jump but I just wanted clarification...are saying that the two bullet connectors at the bottom of the engine near the brake pedal are just simple grounds? So if my connectors are worn out...And Honda doesn't sell that wire anymore..couldn't I just ground out the wires on the frame using a wire eyelet connector and it would start more consistently with out me jiggling those wires? Unless I am completely misunderstanding how this system works.

[Flyingw]

If you pull that connector off of the two switches and look at where the switches slip in to the connector, you'll see the contacts are opened up too far/ Simply take a pair of plyers or needle nose and close those contacts up so they fit tightly on the switches. Clean the switch contacts and the contacts in the connectors and you should be fine. Its not uncommon for those contacts in the harness to be loose.

[Atc70noob]

Yeah I tried that and it ended up breaking, I guess it was really worn out..i tried to replace it with a new connector but it is too large and doesnt fit tight enough.

[Atc70noob]

What size are the Honda connectors 3.9mm? Found that number on another site...i guess the connectors are out there to make this repair.

[Flyingw]

Ya they do break. I have seen those harnesses on Ebay for not too much money.

[Flyingw]

Oh and 3.9mm is about right

[Atc70noob]

Allrighty..thanks.