Tri Z Engine Build

[barnett468]

http://www.macdizzy.com/update82.html


Xlnt, thanks for the link El.


"The ignition timing has to be set somewhere between 1.8 mm's BTDC and 2.2 mm's BTDC."

From what I can tell, the spec recommended is for a TRX 250 Honda . . Either way, just to clarify, it is not a spec that is going to be the best setting on all two strokes . . Two examples are the the 1970's Kawi H1, which most years has a factory spec of 2.94 mm [or 23 degrees] before top dead center and the 1985 Tri Z is 1.66 mm btdc.


"Obviously, the least amount of initial advance is best Always."

There is actually nothing obvious about this statement at all, and if it is meant to apply to all 2 strokes only or both 2 and 4 strokes, it is in fact very wrong, and basically defies the applicable laws of physics . . To prove this to some degree, one can simply adjust the timing on ANY 2 stroke, [or even a 4 stroke engine they have if they want but that is not what the op is referring to] so it fires at top dead center at idle, then tell us just how much "better" it runs . . Or better yet, set it to fire after top dead center since this will help insure it has close to "the least amount of initial advance possible".

Another way to test this to some degree is to let an engine idle, then slowly retard the timing . . Unless one is hard of hearing, they will EASILY hear the engine rpms reduce, and if they retard the timing far enough, the engine will simply die, I personally guarantee it, and I for one don't see how an engine that is no longer running because it has "the least amount of initial advance" will accelerate any better than one that is actually running even though the running one does not have "the least amount of initial advance" . This same test can then be performed at around 4000 rpm.

The technique mentioned in the paragraph immediately above is actually part of a process referred to as "timing by ear", which I learned when I was around 14 and which countless numbers of others have also used, and when properly done, the timing setting will be very close to results that can be achieved by setting the timing with the engine on a dyno or by having a distributor sent in to be "recurved" to match a particular engine build etc.

This being said, if they instead mean that it is best to have a head design that performs equally well with a lower timing setting than a head that performs the same with more timing, it is a completely different deal altogether, and in this case, it is a far more accurate statement, but again, even in this case, "less timing is better", is not technically correct, because again, the engine is the one that determines the best timing, it is never, ever, the engine builder . . In other words, if the engine runs best with the timing at 30 degrees btdc, but the engine builder says, "Hey, I am going to set the timing at 20 or maybe 40 degrees btdc simply because I am the engine builder and I say that this should be the best setting.", the engine will have less power . . If one wants to run a timing setting that is uncommonly low, they must build the engine so it performs well with that setting, and although this is possible, it is way outside the norm of how engines are typically built . . It might be a good idea in concept, but is a bit difficult in execution.

As far as heads that do require less advance than many others, there is such a thing, and for 4 strokes, these are ones that have a heart shaped combustion chamber and this shape typically locates the spark plug closer to the center of the combustion chamber and it also creates a quench pad which are all good things for naturally aspirated engines which means a carbureted engine with no power adders like a supercharger etc . . On engines with superchargers, the fuel mixture is turbulent enough that the heart shape and quench pad are less critical..


"For tuning purposes you might find it helpful to know that more advance (moving toward 2.0 to 2.2 mm's BTDC) will favor bottom end power..."

See reply above


"...and less advance (1.9 to 1.8 or less) will favor top end power."

One can try the same test as mentioned above to test this statement also.


As with jetting, there is no one ideal timing setting for all engines, it just doesn't work that way, and as I mentioned in my previous post, each particular engine will determine the amount of timing it wants and where it wants it.

The main objective to any engines performance is to set it to have the most overall power within the rpm range it will be operated in . . This is means that at least some amount of sacrifice in power outside that operating range will likely have to be made . . I think posted a couple examples of this in my previous post.


As far as the ignition timing post in that link is concerned, imo, it was written by someone that appears to have good intentions and is definitely very knowledgeable in many areas, but unfortunately, with regards to ignition timing, they didn't post sufficient details and write that post in a way that their message is unquestionably clear and understandable . . The most helpful posts are the ones that are the least vague and ambiguous.

:beer

[onformula1]

Yea, it's a 99.99% done deal ( I hate saying 100% in case something comes up). I had planned to go this year, but totally screwed up the date when coordinating a trip my wife was planning and told her to buy her tickets for the day TF 2015 was ending:rolleyes: Given the rain I guess I was lucky. Anyway, I won't make that mistake for 2016. Really looking forward to it:Bounce Planning to bring 2 trikes, 1 big bottle of rum and a 1/2 dozen cigars. Food, shelter and other luxuries I'll figure out when I get there. Slept in my truck cab for three seasons of drag racing, I can do it again for one week.:lol:

26 hours one way is a bit far for me, I plan on flying into the closest airport and renting a SUV that I can sleep in, Mike Oscar Mayer is planning on going so I can stay with him in the toy hauler.

[El Camexican]

As with jetting, there is no one ideal timing setting for all engines, it just doesn't work that way, and as I mentioned in my previous post, each particular engine will determine the amount of timing it wants and where it wants it.

The main objective to any engines performance is to set it to have the most overall power within the rpm range it will be operated in . . This is means that at least some amount of sacrifice in power outside that operating range will likely have to be made . . I think posted a couple examples of this in my previous post.


As far as the ignition timing post in that link is concerned, imo, it was written by someone that appears to have good intentions and is definitely very knowledgeable in many areas, but unfortunately, with regards to ignition timing, they didn't post sufficient details and write that post in a way that their message is unquestionably clear and understandable . . The most helpful posts are the ones that are the least vague and ambiguous.

I’ve found that when it comes to things that can’t possibly be determined with hard math good info can be short and sweet “Here’s the current school of thought, start here and figure out what works for your application by testing and tuning” There simply is no substitute. Books and some advice will get you close, but unless every single component, tolerance and other variable is identical you still need to test and tune. I would say ignition timing is a perfect example. On F1’s post was exactly that, good advice. All he left off was the “results may vary" disclaimer that should follow everyone’s advice, although I personally prefer “You get what you pay for and this advice was free”.:)

Timing (ignition or cam) could be broken down to one simple sentence; “For best performance, set your timing to where the vehicle runs best and does not self-destruct”. Reading about all the theory behind what causes one setting to be better than another is all good an well on a cold and rainy afternoon, and great info to have when wondering which what to turn screws first, but at some point one must go outside, pull the covers and start testing.

Yea, Macdizzy is a Honda guy and most of his experience seems to apply to them, but he seems to have a great grasp of the whole 2 stroke thing. I’ve enjoyed reading his stuff.

Connecting rod length/bore width ratios is something else that seems vary greatly from application to application. In my case the Tri-Z uses a 130mm center to center rod. From what I’ve read a 7mm longer YZ490 rod and a spacer plate is bolt on power due to the longer dwell. I’ve never seen one run, yet alone driven one, but the former Yamaha rider that posted on here said all his engines had them and a friend back home said the local dealer had the mod done on their quad conversion. He claims that it pulled away from everything else on the ice straights.

So if a 137mm con rod is the hot ticket on one 68/70mm bore 2 stroke why are the Honda’s, Kawi’s, KTM’s and newer Yamaha’s all running rods shorter than 130mm? Then consider that a 250 and 300 KTM share the same bottom end and both seem to have linier power in abundance. I’m not planning to do this mod, but I find it interesting that I seem to have the longest 250 rod of the three Japanese trikes and yet it’s “too short” for Yamaha’s factory trike. The short answer may be that one can overcome most any small design compromise by making changes in other areas.

[onformula1]

I’ve found that when it comes to things that can’t possibly be determined with hard math good info can be short and sweet “Here’s the current school of thought, start here and figure out what works for your application by testing and tuning” There simply is no substitute. Books and some advice will get you close, but unless every single component, tolerance and other variable is identical you still need to test and tune. I would say ignition timing is a perfect example. On F1’s post was exactly that, good advice. All he left off was the “results may vary" disclaimer that should follow everyone’s advice, although I personally prefer “You get what you pay for and this advice was free”.:)

Timing (ignition or cam) could be broken down to one simple sentence; “For best performance, set your timing to where the vehicle runs best and does not self-destruct”. Reading about all the theory behind what causes one setting to be better than another is all good an well on a cold and rainy afternoon, and great info to have when wondering which what to turn screws first, but at some point one must go outside, pull the covers and start testing.

Yea, Macdizzy is a Honda guy and most of his experience seems to apply to them, but he seems to have a great grasp of the whole 2 stroke thing. I’ve enjoyed reading his stuff.

Connecting rod length/bore width ratios is something else that seems vary greatly from application to application. In my case the Tri-Z uses a 130mm center to center rod. From what I’ve read a 7mm longer YZ490 rod and a spacer plate is bolt on power due to the longer dwell. I’ve never seen one run, yet alone driven one, but the former Yamaha rider that posted on here said all his engines had them and a friend back home said the local dealer had the mod done on their quad conversion. He claims that it pulled away from everything else on the ice straights.

So if a 137mm con rod is the hot ticket on one 68/70mm bore 2 stroke why are the Honda’s, Kawi’s, KTM’s and newer Yamaha’s all running rods shorter than 130mm? Then consider that a 250 and 300 KTM share the same bottom end and both seem to have linier power in abundance. I’m not planning to do this mod, but I find it interesting that I seem to have the longest 250 rod of the three Japanese trikes and yet it’s “too short” for Yamaha’s factory trike. The short answer may be that one can overcome most any small design compromise by making changes in other areas.

Nico, keep in mind the thread is titled " Tri Z Engine Build" if the title was different my advice maybe different.

I will save my time and opinion on the long rods and why they work on some and not others. (I sense multiple posts of copied and pasted, Googled info posted by one ;)

[barnett468]

Nico, keep in mind the thread is titled " Tri Z Engine Build" if the title was different my advice maybe different.

I will save my time and opinion on the long rods and why they work on some and not others. (I sense multiple posts of copied and pasted, Googled info posted by one ;)

El, at least one person on the site keeps posting very brief comments about certain subjects but they never seem to post details about them even when asked to, and these comments may give the appearance to some whom read them that that they know something about the subject they commented on and therefore, take these comments as fact even though they never, ever, seem to qualify their statements like I and some others try to do, yet they seem to have plenty of off handed comments to make about others whom try to be helpful in this regard even though it has previously been suggested to them on a few occasions and a few different threads that they stop making these types of comments.

Yup, I certainly post links to other sites and copy and post info off the internet on occasion, but this obviously doesn't mean that I have no knowledge of a particular subject when I do this, and it doesn't mean that others that do this don't have knowledge on the subject they are posing on either, however it's obvious to me that at least one person on the site WRONGLY makes a LOT of assumptions . . One of the reasons I do occasionally post things from the internet is so I don't have to type as much, plus it gives people an additional, independent source of information so they don't have to take one persons word for it whether it be mine or someone else's.

I hole shot many races with my Tecate, and the times I didn't, I was still usually near the front, and this didn't happen because I was lucky or because I retarded the timing on my bike to increase top end power . . I also did a LOT of timing tests on the prototype Tecate's I was doing the development testing on, and in every single case, "MORE" timing produced MORE power EVERYWHERE . . This also held true for the Road Race bikes that Rob Muzzy built for Kawi which went around 165 mph.

Even though your engine is far from stock, if you want to know what affect ignition timing has on a Tri Z, then it might be helpful to ask someone whom has far more experience with them than most of us here, and one of those people would be Bryan Raffa and another would be Harry Klemm whom built Bryan Raffas 350 cc Tri Z engine shown in the video below, and whom has possibly built more National and Series Championship Winning engines than ANY other builder to date.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JTOdFFozYk


Although there may be a couple of people that use the "less advance makes more top end power" theory, I have never once experienced that being the case in my 40 years of setting the timing curves on literally HUNDREDS of various engines, and apparently Kawasaki hasn't either, therefore, based on that alone, imo, comments about retarding the timing to increase top end power are simply incredibly unlikely in ANY engine . . I even posted how one could test this "theory" for themselves so they wouldn't have to take my word for it.

For someone to imply that ignition timing rules are different for a TriZ than they are for other engines simply makes no sense at all to me, especially when they don't offer any proof, anecdotal or otherwise, to support this claim . . It's been a commonly known fact to engine mfg's ever since an ignition advance system was invented around 347 years ago, that in general, running the most advance you can before the engine starts to loose power or detonate is the correct way to achieve the most power at ALL rpms.


PISTON DWELL

I for one am not afraid to post some of my comments about piston dwell and have anyone whom wants to scrutinize them and tell me I'm wrong if they find an error in them or post info that doesn't agree with mine,even though my comments on this subject may have little relevance since I admit I am not one of the foremost authorities on the it, however, I do know a least a little about the subject.

The following is just general info which you might find interesting if your bored and want to read it, and YES, I copied two quotes from the internet.

Piston dwell is a bit complicated because it is tied to rod ratio and rod length and piston speed, and as with most things, one size does not fit all, and there are good and bad aspects to both long and short dwell and long and short rod ratios.

The number one priority for any engine is engine life since it obviously doesn't matter how much power an engine has if it will hurl before the finish line . . High perf street engines like stroker engines, use rod ratios of around 1.5, and these engines typically spin a max of around 6000 rpm with horsepower that typically ranges from around 300 to 500 . . The drag racers like John Force run their engines for around 4.0 seconds so they can sacrifice long term reliability for a bit more power . . The Nascar guys use rod ratios of around 1.7 [which would be considered extremely long for a street engine] because it is easier on the engine which needs to survive for 4 hours at rpms of around 10,000 instead of 4 seconds with rpms of around 8500 . . If that same Nascar engine only ran at 6000 rpm, they could get away with a shorter rod ratio . . Formula 1 cars spin 20,000 rpm for hours and their rod ratios are in the 2's, so it's fairly easy to see some sort of pattern here.

I actually build high perf automotive engines for the street and built my first one in 1971, so I have been doing it for a little while and am interested in all this engine tech stuff including dwell and rod ratio and air velocity and port cross section etc, and I also know several top engine builders, and they all say the same thing, which is basically that the amount of piston dwell doesn't mean much in application.

I have seen dyno charts and comments from 2 different very good automotive engine builders whom actually tested two different dwells by changing the rod lengths in around a 300 hp engine they had and the difference in power was so small that even they said it was within the margin of error for their dynos . . I have also talked to other high perf engine builders and read lots of "technical' papers and comments from other builders regarding the subject.

One of the issues in the "a long dwell is better" theory lies in simple physics, and this is, the more time the piston dwells/lingers at the top and bottom of the stroke, the less time it spends moving, or moving quickly per se, and when it is not moving, or moving quickly, it can not make as much power . . A longer dwell also increases the load on the piston and rod etc because it can not move away from the top of the stroke as quickly as an engine with shorter dwell can after tdc.

The comment below is from Darin Morgan whom built the 1982 and 1983 NHRA National Championship Pro Stock wining engines for Lee Shepherd, and also the 1983 IHRA National Championship Pro Stock winning engine for Lee Shepherd and he is still at it today.

" We also wanted to point out some of the common myths and misconceptions about high-performance motors. For example, I've seen dozens of magazine articles on supposedly "magic" connecting rod ratios. If you believe these stories, you would think that the ratio of the connecting rod length to the crankshaft stroke is vitally important to performance. Well, in my view, the most important thing about a connecting rod is whether or not the bolts are torqued!

If I had to make a list of the ten most important specifications in a racing engine, connecting rod length would rank about fiftieth. Back in the days when Buddy Morrison and I built dozens of small-block Modified motors, we earnestly believed that an engine needed a 1.9:1 rod/stroke ratio. Today every Pro Stock team uses blocks with super-short deck heights, and we couldn't care less about the rod ratio. There's no magic - a rod's function is to connect the piston to the crankshaft. Period."

People look at what Smokey Yunick said and they take it out of context in my opinion. He said you should put the longest rod YOU CAN not the longest rod YOU CAN CRAM JAM OR MANIPULATE into the engine. I see people all the time screw up the engine combination to facilitate some preconceived ideal rod ratio and they wonder why the thing wont turn up and make power. The difference in the GM 358 NASCAR test engine from 5.250 inch long rods to 6.1 inch long rods was maybe 2ft/lbs and 2 HP. Not much to worry about. That satisfied the GM engineers that there is nothing there. Does a short rod make more TQ? Does a long rod make more top end power? It probably does but its such an insignificant amount, its not even worth messing with! If there was a major advantage or power gain in this, it would have been proven a long time ago and we could all put this to rest but no one has. I wonder why???????????"


COMBUSTION CHAMBER SHAPE VS IGNITION TIMING VS DETONATION VS TOP END POWER

As far as dome and squish band shape goes, I know you already addressed that and got a lot of very good info from others here on it so your good there, and I am far from an expert in that area on 2 strokes so it was fun and informative reading those posts . . I did do some squish band and dome shape testing with Harry Klemm but he came up with the design and also made the heads so I was just the test guinea pig.

The comments below are from Harry Klemm . . He built a killer H1 road racer which another guy rode for him and he used the stock timing which is a lot, and it won every AHRMA race and the Championship . . The CDI equipped H1 actually advances the timing at around 7000 rpm to a level that is above its already "high" static timing level of 23 degrees btdc, so the "theory" that less advance increases top end power in a 2 stroke was not the theory the Kawi engineers used on what was the fastest production bike in the world at the time irregardless of engine size . . In fact, Kawi, still didn't use the "less advance increases top end power" theory by the time they built the H2 a few years later, which was also the fastest bike in the world when it came out . . Harry also used the stock Kawi timing instead of using the theory of retarding the timing to get more top end power which he certainly could have done, and instead of retarding it, he left it as it was and modified the heads and added cooling scoops to help reduce detonation so he could intentionally run a lot of advance.


FROM HARRY KLEMM

Our 1975 H1 test bike had the latest version of the H1 CDI ignition. This ignition maintains the same ignition timing from 0 rpm, up to 7000rpm. At 7000rpm, the ignition timing advances very slightly. Why the !!## would KMC engineers do this?.... Simple. It’s important to remember that the H1 was built as a ¼ mile bike that was expected to be operated at peak rpm in high gear for only a few moments (on 100+ octane pump gas of the day) After just a few moments at peak rpm in high gear at the end of a drag race, the engine was then quickly shut down. Under this operational scenario, a small advance above 7000rpm is actually not a bad idea. Sadly, however, for extended operation above 7000rpm, this added advance a “super bad” idea. Add in the increased detonation risks afforded by today's oxygenated 91-octane pump gas, and sustained 7000+ operation is guaranteed to result in catastrophic levels of detonation ...... in less than 30 operating seconds.

As the fleet of H1 500s aged, and pump-gas octanes plummeted, the poor head-dome designs and excessive squish clearances of stock H1s would swiftly generate lethal detonation, any time the bike was operated for a brief time over 7000rpm (usually resulting in a seized or holed piston)…. And exactly the same applies to anyone riding an H1 today….. So what is an owner to do?

Octane Specific Riding - While running a stock H1 CDI ignition, it is impossible to build ANY high-performance H1 engine format that can be operated reliably at sustained 7000+rpm speeds on today’s 91-octane fuel. .... it's never going to happen. This applies no matter what pipes or carbs you are running on your H1. That said, the lion’s share of "stock-pipe stock-carb" riding scenarios CAN be done with 91-octane, or 91-octane mixes. Here is the background.

During the development of our engine packages, we conducted dyno testing with our real-time detonation sensors hooked up to our H1. Using this deto-sensor on the dyno gave us a clear insight on the specific detonation risks. Our H1 showed virtually no signs of detonation at all until the 6000-6500rpm range. Above 6000 we began to see mild levels of deto on the center cylinder only. Above 6500, the rate of deto on the center cylinder increased visibly, and the ignition side cylinder began light deto. As soon as we passed the 7000rpm threshold where the ignition advanced slightly, the center cylinder went into high level deto, with both the left and right cylinders not far behind. Later tests (with staggered compression and jetting) helped to significantly reduce the deto levels of the center cylinder, however every time we exceeded 7000 rpm there was visible (but now non-lethal) deto taking place on all three cylinders. These dyno tests were all done running 110 octane race fuel. The same 7000+rpm passes on 91-octane would have certainly killed a piston.

After these dyno tests, we filled up with 110-octane, and took the bike to Bonneville where we ran 8100 rpm in high gear for the full 50 seconds of our peak speed pass. A few months later, we took the same setup to an AHRMA road race at Willow Springs Raceway (arguably the highest average speed track in the western USA). At Willow, the H1 was steadily running 7000+rpms in 4th & 5th gear for 80% of the 6 lap race. It is impossible to run an H1 harder than we ran this one at Willow Springs. After each event we removed the heads to check for any visible signs of “destructive levels” of detonation …. There were none.

In between the racing, we ran numerous tests on the street running 91 octane fuel. As long as we never ran sustained rpms above 6000, the temperatures and detonation were very manageable. However if we did some aggressive riding that involved repeated 7000+rpm spurts in the higher gears, the 91 octane could no longer run deto safe. For this kind of riding, we ran a 50/50 mix of race gas and 91-octane to manage the detonation to safe limits. On a practical note, riding the H1 this aggressively on the street will likely get you thrown in jail in all 50 states…. And we are strongly against racing of any kind on public highways. That said, everyone has a different definition of “aggressive” riding, so we did this testing to that end only.

For 90% of the street riding that most H1 owners will do, 91-octane in our engine packages will suit most riding applications.
.

[Mosh]

I can personally say in one short sentence without writing a book....

heavy modified tri-z engines respond better to retarded ignition timing, especially when the compression gets tight.

Put it together, run it, jet it then play with the timing plate....Don't ask me specific scientific degree numbers....I cant tell you...
Seat of the pants, and wrench and tune time will get it figured out.

I would also caution references to other "experts" that probably have shown and documented more internet evidence of engine failures than engine longevity..That is well documented by their own will. Then said failure usually gets blamed on someone else... Failure is part of research and learning but repeated failures in various facets indicate problems when there is always one common denominator.

I am not a expert, dont want to be...Cuz the minute you know everything....You learn nothing...


I have no idea where you are even at in this thread or the build so if it makes no differnce then flush this post....and that is why I backed out long ago and locked the coolhead thread...

[Jmoozy27]

I am not a expert, dont want to be...Cuz the minute you know everything....You learn nothing...

I say, I say, I think I just gots me a new sig quote...:beer

[El Camexican]

I say, I say, I think I just gots me a new sig quote...:beer

That is a good one!

[onformula1]

I say, I say, I think I just gots me a new sig quote...:beer

That reminds me of my favorite saying-

Anyone can learn from a fool, but a fool can learn from no one.

[El Camexican]

The swing-arm from the "elusive" Manbearpig has been cut & welded back together with an additional 3.99" of length between the two ends.

I'm sure there are lighter ones out there, but I doubt there are stronger ones. It will go out with the next batch of parts for sandblasting and then some silver PC clear coat before the new bearings go in.

Jeswinehart has kindly offered to make a custom colored slider that will adorn the finished swinger and match the orange chain, Rad Loc nut and brake line.

225609225610225611225612225613

[onformula1]

Very nice work Nico, you might want to grab yourself a used auto darkening welding helmet from 1989, they are very sweet...LOL

[El Camexican]

Very nice work Nico, you might want to grab yourself a used auto darkening welding helmet from 1989, they are very sweet...LOL

LOL! I actually buy auto darkening helmets in bulk these days. The one in the photo is the first welding helmet I ever owned, its over 32 years old. It came green, but when it got some primer on it I painted it black around 1988. The "Wolf" is from the K59 Kevlar canoes my boss at the time was making back in the 70's. It has too many memories to toss out. I use it mainly for grinding now.

[onformula1]

LOL! I actually buy auto darkening helmets in bulk these days. The one in the photo is the first welding helmet I ever owned, its over 32 years old. It came green, but when it got some primer on it I painted it black around 1988. The "Wolf" is from the K59 Kevlar canoes my boss at the time was making back in the 70's. It has too many memories to toss out. I use it mainly for grinding now.

Jackson makes a nice helmet and you can buy parts for them, mine is 25 years old and still going strong.

225715

[El Camexican]

Jackson makes a nice helmet and you can buy parts for them, mine is 25 years old and still going strong.

225715

I believe my old one in the photo is a Jackson too!

What I meant by "bulk" is BULK as in 1,500 at a time:lol: So I get lots of samples, and spare parts. I remember trying out an auto darkening helmet around 1987. They wanted $600CND. A few years later they dropped to $400 and the salesman said they would never go lower. Boy was he wrong! LOL!!!

[onformula1]

I believe my old one in the photo is a Jackson too!

What I meant by "bulk" is BULK as in 1,500 at a time:lol: So I get lots of samples, and spare parts. I remember trying out an auto darkening helmet around 1987. They wanted $600CND. A few years later they dropped to $400 and the salesman said they would never go lower. Boy was he wrong! LOL!!!

Recognize the the picture?

I must just be lucky, my Jackson is box stock except for the lens cover since high school.

[El Camexican]

Recognize the the picture?

Of course, got the song in my truck too!:lol: Foot loose too!

[onformula1]

Of course, got the song in my truck too!:lol: Foot loose too!

Well, i didn't expect that?!..:lol:

This is still the funniest thing ever posted on this forum, Thanks to you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=porkY6I0LLc

[El Camexican]

Well, i didn't expect that?!..:lol:

I didn't say I listened to it, well at least not this week:lol: My pick-up has a feature that lets me record whatever disc I stick in it, so I ran everything I could find in the house through it including some of the Mrs.'s discs. Not sure what all's on the hard drive, but it likely ranges from Black Sabbath to Boy George. :Bounce

[onformula1]

I didn't say I listened to it, well at least not this week:lol: My pick-up has a feature that lets me record whatever disc I stick in it, so I ran everything I could find in the house through it including some of the Mrs.'s discs. Not sure what all's on the hard drive, but it likely ranges from Black Sabbath to Boy George. :Bounce

They have a truck like that in Mexico?, good alarm? :lol:

[El Camexican]

They have a truck like that in Mexico?, good alarm? :lol:

Hell ya, we make your trucks here (please don't tell Trump):lol: You're right about the alarm, if the radio won't play "Banda" the bad guys don't want the truck.

[onformula1]

Hell ya, we make your trucks here (please don't tell Trump):lol: You're right about the alarm, if the radio won't play "Banda" the bad guys don't want the truck.

Ok, but I hear this often-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXvOEPsE0s

Personally I prefer MA'NA :lol:

[cr480r]

Nobody has mentioned that reducing the ignition lead increases the temperature inside the pipe. Compression ratio has an effect as well.. So does fuel type. Rather that helps or hurts performance depends on the pipe being used. Thus the need for tuning to know. Not to mention different machines have different timing curves and head designs. Mosh's findings with high compression liking retarded timing makes sense to me.. Barnett is looking at this like its a 4 cycle..

[El Camexican]

The 4” extended swing-arm was powder coated this week and came home for new bearings and a custom made jeswinehart chain slider. It fits like a glove and is a perfect match for the Mirror Orange powder coat. Thank you so much!

An orange Spiegler brake line, RAD nut and a KTM chain on a large JT sprocket finish it off. Still some suspension tweaking pending, got an expert working on that.:)

228667228668228669228670

[onformula1]

^^^^ Man, that sure is Purdy!

Primo, work as always!

She looks like a stock swinger, only longer... Congrats!

I recently came across a extended stock Tri-Z swingarm it was pretty nice, but you could tell where it was extended the finish work was not like yours.

[El Camexican]

I recently came across a extended stock Tri-Z swingarm it was pretty nice, but you could tell where it was extended the finish work was not like yours.

That "look" added a few pounds to the trike:lol: The stock rectangular swing arm tubes are a weird dimension. They are about 2.18" tall. Not even a known Metric size. I had to add some sheet metal to the 4 X 2 rectangle I used to fill the 4" gap. The underside isn't as pretty.

[barnett468]

Barnett is looking at this like its a 4 cycle..

Wrong . If I looked at a 2 stroke like it's a 4 stroke, The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe, wouldn't be the most powerful 3 wheeler in the Universe.

It's odd that someone would really think that all these bikes that came from KAWASAKI actually magically timed themselves.

[onformula1]

That "look" added a few pounds to the trike:lol: The stock rectangular swing arm tubes are a weird dimension. They are about 2.18" tall. Not even a known Metric size. I had to add some sheet metal to the 4 X 2 rectangle I used to fill the 4" gap. The underside isn't as pretty.

Well, I tend not to lay down and check the bottom side with a flash light, so it's still a job well done!

[barnett468]

Nobody has mentioned that reducing the ignition lead increases the temperature inside the pipe.

The temperature inside the pipe is irrelevant if you don't have a gauge to read it AND don't understand what the temp readings mean in regards to tuning . The exhaust temp is also directly relative to the combustion chamber temp since that is where the heat inside the pipe originates from .



Mosh's findings with high compression liking retarded timing makes sense to me..

The higher the compression, the lower the timing must be to reduce detonation to an "acceptable" level if all else remains the same.

Each individual engine should have the timing curve set so it is optimal for that particular engine and the fuel being used etc.

Gear ratio and vehicle and rider weight etc also directly affect the potential for detonation.

The higher the dynamic compression, the higher the combustion chamber temps will be.

In general, once the cranking compression gets to around 180 and higher, a plug that is one step colder than stock should be used to reduce the potential for pre-ignition.

Pre-ignition and detonation are two entirely different processes.

Detonation can only occur after the plug has ignited the fuel.

Pre-ignition can only occur before the normal spark from the plug ocurs.
.

[cr480r]

The temperature inside the pipe is irrelevant if you don't have a gauge to read it AND don't understand what the temp readings mean in regards to tuning.

You don't need that info unless you are designing a pipe.


The exhaust temp is also directly relative to the combustion chamber temp since that is where the heat inside the pipe originates from .

Bingo!!!!! :idea:

[barnett468]

You don't need that info unless you are designing a pipe.

Well as far as not needing that info for anything other than for building a pipe, that depends . It is a some what useful tool when combined with an accurate wide band AFR meter to help determine the "tune" of an engine, but it should not be used by itself to do so, however, as a single gauge, they are more benefit on a turbo engine.

As far as some people using EGT's to design a pipe, that may be, however I don't now anyone that does, but I do know Daryl Bassani, Dave Miller, Harry Klemm, Dean Modesett, Lee Scheffers and Rob Muzzy, and none of them used EGT's to design pipes back in the day, and every one of these people had pipes that were on Professional race winning bikes, and some were on Championship Winning bikes.

Hell, even I even won a race over 30 riders which included several of the best ATC riders in the World using a pipe designed by Harry that wasn't designed using EGT's . This included some riders from Team Honda, and Jimmie White and Donnie Luce, and some of them had bikes that were easily worth 10 times or more than my poor old worn out TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe was, and they had spent literally hundreds of hours developing and testing theirs and I probably spent only spent four hours testing and tuning mine . In fact, I holeshot that race with tires I previously got from Jimmy that I had already run several races on and my bike had a STOCK swingarm and STOCK rear axle and STOCK front tire and STOCK TECATE flywheel and ignition and basically STOCK suspension.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif


Hey Barn...ya should have given them all a chance and rode a stock Honda!

http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/l/laughing/graphics-laughing-867787.gif
.

[cr480r]

I am not talking about using egt for pipe development or tuning. I am talking about knowing pipe temperature to design from scratch using formulas or programs. Pipe temp is huge variable when calculating tuned length. Obviously someone who builds pipes is going to modify the pipe specs to achieve the desired results. Someone who is using existing pipes can use ignition timing to change the characteristics to some extent. Anyone who has played with timing on a two stroke knows this. As mentioned by onformula1. Generally adding timing lead helps power when off the pipe, and reducing lead can extend over rev. The results obviously vary from combo to combo. But to look at ignition timing purely from a cylinder pressure/detonation standpoint is 4 stroke mentality.

[barnett468]

I am not talking about using egt for pipe development or tuning. I am talking about knowing pipe temperature to design from scratch using formulas or programs.

This makes no sense so perhaps you are simply explaining it incorrectly . Also, "pipe temperatures" do not remain constant therefore, how can you use a variable to make an optimum unflexible design?



Someone who is using existing pipes can use ignition timing to change the characteristics to some extent. Anyone who has played with timing on a two stroke knows this. But to look at ignition timing purely from a cylinder pressure/detonation standpoint is 4 stroke mentality.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but imo, your comments suggest a lack of understanding of how timing works and that you are referring to FIXED timing curves.

Again, I beat the best riders in the world and did timing tests on many 2 and 4 strokes throughout my entire life including when I worked at Kawasaki, and if you think that I beat the best ATC riders in the world and helped make The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The World without knowing a lot about ignition timing, it would be an error.

The fact is, that in general, on engines that do not have a computer controlled engine management system that controls the timing to keep it at its optimum level, there is only ONE optimum CURVE for each type of build, and this curve is best determined on an engine dyno which we just so happened to have at Kawasaki R and D.

You put the 4 stroke OR 2 stroke engine on the dyno which puts a load on the engine and if it will be operating over a wide range of rpm, you basically change the timing every 1000 rpms until it produces the most power You also check the EGT and AFR and BSFC to determine if it is lean or rich and immediately address any serious concerns before continuing the test, then continue this process until you reach max rpm . Due to the power characteristics of 2 strokes, this curve is typically steeper [more aggressive/faster] on then it is on a 4 stroke.

After the test, you plot the curve, then you set the mechanical or digital advance unit so that it most closely replicates the curve on the graph . On a mechanical advance, this can be done by changing springs and the preload on the springs and the width of the gap between the advance stops . Any jetting issues are addressed and another test is performed to check results.

:beer
.

[El Camexican]

The front rim on the trike remained one of the last untouched parts of the trike up to this evening, It was anodized silver and in very good condition (thank you CA weather), but it didn't match the polished ITC rears, so I decided to buff it up.

I've been polishing with the same green SS compound bars I brought with me from Canada years ago, but I recently used up the last one and had to buy some new ones. What a treat it is to start with emery and work your way down instead of trying to remove scratches with a green bar.

So if any one is looking to do this here's the step by step how to:

1. Wear proper safety equipment

2. Starting with a clean dry rim, place it in a plastic tub and spray it with Easy-Off Oven Cleaner, Spray both sides, but avoid the inner part of the rim as it's best to leave the anodizing on that part. Let the rim sit for 15 to 30 minutes. If it happens to turn black it's time to stop.

229073

3. Rinse the rim with water to neutralize the cleaner and wash off some of the anodizing.

4. Wet sand the wheel with 320 grit paper to remove as much of the anodizing as possible and rinse as needed. Odds are there will still be some anodizing that is stuck to the aluminum. Once all the loose stuff is off rinse and dry the wheel and repeat step 2 & 3

229074

5. Wet sand with 400 grit. Do small sections at a time and don't move on until there is no more anodizing, stains, pits or scratches. If there is damage like a gouge, or deep scratch now it the time to address it. This is the hardest most boring step, but also the most important if you want a nice wheel.

229075

6. When the entire rim has been completed with 400 grit rinse it and switch to 600 grit. Sand till you feel the sand paper starting to glide over the surface more so than cutting into the material. This indicates you've removed the rough surface left by the 400 grit and are now "flat" against the 600 grit. Rinse the wheel and switch to 1000 grit, then 1500 grit and finally 2000 grit. If at any time you feel something under the sand paper that feels like a small stone rolling around, stop and wash the wheel and the sand paper as it is likely a piece of sand from a courser grit that got back onto the rim. If you don't rinse the rim, or change your water with each grit change you're just wasting your time.

229076

7. Dress your buffing wheel with emery compound (black) and buff the entire wheel. If you encounter a small scratch you may be able to get it out with this compound. When wheel is completely buffed wipe off all excess compound.

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8. Change the buffer wheel and dress the new wheel with brown compound and repeat step 7.

9. Change the buffer wheel and dress it with white compound. Repeat step 7.

10. Change the buffer wheel and smother it with Mothers polishing cream, or an equivalent and machine buff to a shine.

229078

11. Final buff by hand with Mothers and a clean cloth.

12. Crack open a brew and marvel your handy work.:beer

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[onformula1]

The front rim on the trike remained one of the last untouched parts of the trike up to this evening, It was anodized silver and in very good condition (thank you CA weather), but it didn't match the polished ITC rears, so I decided to buff it up.

I've been polishing with the same green SS compound bars I brought with me from Canada years ago, but I recently used up the last one and had to buy some new ones. What a treat it is to start with emery and work your way down instead of trying to remove scratches with a green bar.

So if any one is looking to do this here's the step by step how to:

1. Wear proper safety equipment

2. Starting with a clean dry rim, place it in a plastic tub and spray it with Easy-Off Oven Cleaner, Spray both sides, but avoid the inner part of the rim as it's best to leave the anodizing on that part. Let the rim sit for 15 to 30 minutes. If it happens to turn black it's time to stop.

229073

3. Rinse the rim with water to neutralize the cleaner and wash off some of the anodizing.

4. Wet sand the wheel with 320 grit paper to remove as much of the anodizing as possible and rinse as needed. Odds are there will still be some anodizing that is stuck to the aluminum. Once all the loose stuff is off rinse and dry the wheel and repeat step 2 & 3

229074

5. Wet sand with 400 grit. Do small sections at a time and don't move on until there is no more anodizing, stains, pits or scratches. If there is damage like a gouge, or deep scratch now it the time to address it. This is the hardest most boring step, but also the most important if you want a nice wheel.

229075

6. When the entire rim has been completed with 400 grit rinse it and switch to 600 grit. Sand till you feel the sand paper starting to glide over the surface more so than cutting into the material. This indicates you've removed the rough surface left by the 400 grit and are now "flat" against the 600 grit. Rinse the wheel and switch to 1000 grit, then 1500 grit and finally 2000 grit. If at any time you feel something under the sand paper that feels like a small stone rolling around, stop and wash the wheel and the sand paper as it is likely a piece of sand from a courser grit that got back onto the rim. If you don't rinse the rim, or change your water with each grit change you're just wasting your time.

229076

7. Dress your buffing wheel with emery compound (black) and buff the entire wheel. If you encounter a small scratch you may be able to get it out with this compound. When wheel is completely buffed wipe off all excess compound.

229077

8. Change the buffer wheel and dress the new wheel with brown compound and repeat step 7.

9. Change the buffer wheel and dress it with white compound. Repeat step 7.

10. Change the buffer wheel and smother it with Mothers polishing cream, or an equivalent and machine buff to a shine.

229078

11. Final buff by hand with Mothers and a clean cloth.

12. Crack open a brew and marvel your handy work.:beer

229079229080

You know what is amazing?, I do the same thing. (Thank you, Nico for all your polishing help)

I did add 800 grit, blue compound (Zero grit, just polish) after the white with Talc and Eagle One Never Dull (wadding) for the final buff.

Now- Nico how do you polish a carb? and how do you get rid of Carpal Tunnel? I have heard of SS green compound and bought some, thoughts on aluminum?

[El Camexican]

You know what is amazing?, I do the same thing. (Thank you, Nico for all your polishing help)

I did add 800 grit, blue compound (Zero grit, just polish) after the white with Talc and Eagle One Never Dull (wadding) for the final buff.

Now- Nico how do you polish a carb? and how do you get rid of Carpal Tunnel? I have heard of SS green compound and bought some, thoughts on aluminum?

LOL! Carbs are a PITA, Demel's and Q-Tips. Some won't polish at all. Low quality aluminum doesn't polish well. I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel about 25 years ago when I was plumbing compressor units. Sucks, but I've got enough pain going on in other spots that I don't notice it much now.

Today is the first time I used white compound on aluminum instead of green, amazing! Show quality stuff. Shiny is an addiction!

[onformula1]

LOL! Carbs are a PITA, Demel's and Q-Tips. Some won't polish at all. Low quality aluminum doesn't polish well. I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel about 25 years ago when I was plumbing compressor units. Sucks, but I've got enough pain going on in other spots that I don't notice it much now.

Today is the first time I used white compound on aluminum instead of green, amazing! Show quality stuff. Shiny is an addiction!

Why do I think watching you polish a carb. with a Q-tip while I am drinking a Pacifico & eating Cocktail would be funny? :lol:

[El Camexican]

Why do I think watching you polish a carb. with a Q-tip while I am drinking a Pacifico & eating Cocktail would be funny? :lol:

You sound like most of my buddies down here when I work on their bikes.:lol:

[cr480r]

So how does it run?

[El Camexican]

So how does it run?

Better than I expected, but not as well as I'd like.

[El Camexican]

The trike I bought in California many years ago has now returned. What a rush!

239655

[atc007]

Have a ball out there! Say hi to everyone for me !

[El Camexican]

Planning to build another engine, so I figured I may as well just extend this thread.

Started with looking for an un-cracked clutch cover to mothball for the future. After a few eBay disappointments I lucked into a complete bottom end less kick lever. The eBay photos didn't show the cover, so I thought what the heck, lets see what I can get for $150 bucks. Ended up being a compete bottom end with an un-cracked clutch cover, but it had sat with an half inch of water in it for a good while, so all the steel parts were pretty nasty. There was one broken bolt deep in the clutch cover, but I managed to weld it to a nut and then a screw driver and spun it out.

The cases were pretty rough, but the only damage was a tab that holds a retention spring on the kicker. Was thinking of getting it welded, or just replacing the case half, but I don't think the tab is really stressed (so why did it break :wondering) Decided to try some JB Weld. Pretty pleased with the results.

This is what it should look like (Thanks Oldskool)

246675

I don't have a photo of the missing tab, but it cracked off pretty deep. I blocked and taped off the surrounding areas with cardboard and masking tape and filled up the void with JB Weld

246676

Let it sit for a couple days and then ground out the cardboard and tape with a die grinder and finished up with a Dremel.

246677
246678

I think it came out pretty good. I'll have to mock it up with the hardware and see if it holds before I commit to getting it bored. If I have any doubts maybe it will be replaced with a different case half.

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[christph]

The trike I bought in California many years ago has now returned. What a rush!

239655

What pipe is on there--looks sweet. Maybe big enough for a big bore?

[El Camexican]

What pipe is on there--looks sweet. Maybe big enough for a big bore?

Jemco out of Houston. Go back into this thread and you'll find a page on it. Not sure how it compares to a DG as I made a lot of engine mods before putting it on, but I still have a couple DG's on the wall. It's the pipe I'll be trying first when (if) I get a 350 put together. I make it look like that by sanding it silver with fine grit paper and then using a propane torch to blue the welds.

[christph]

Jemco out of Houston. Go back into this thread and you'll find a page on it. Not sure how it compares to a DG as I made a lot of engine mods before putting it on, but I still have a couple DG's on the wall. It's the pipe I'll be trying first when (if) I get a 350 put together. I make it look like that by sanding it silver with fine grit paper and then using a propane torch to blue the welds.

Unfortunately I heard some bad things about Jemco's quality recently. A guy on Tecate FB bought a pipe and the welds looked like tooth paste and some weren't even finished. It took forever to get the pipe, too. I'm pretty committed to getting a 350 kit for my Z. I might even take the engine out this weekend. If I need a bigger pipe I'd like the Jemco as an option, but I have some reservations after seeing that.

[El Camexican]

I can't say I'd buy another from them if there were other options.

[El Camexican]

Who do you "like" better ......onformula1 or Aramid ???

Damn, that's a tough one! Both seem to suffer from mental issues, but only one has stolen from me, so I guess Aramid gets the nod.

[this old rz]

Ive got an extra HD Sprock Racing base gasket if want one pm me. All the info for the Vforce3 reeds is good on the Z they will come with 4 holes no worries. Here's a pic of the reeds & HD Z gaskets:

209043

Its hard to believe after all the bling on your Z and time building that trailer, you don't have those fancy reeds yet?!:naughty:

Regarding that base gasket, is it thicker? or just better sealing?
The reason I ask is that there was a new gasket on the bike I bought..but it leaks at the base gasket, no matter if it was tourqed down to spec. Someone somewhere here mentioned the Tri Z cylinders are often warped and will not seal, is there any truth to that?

[El Camexican]

Regarding that base gasket, is it thicker? or just better sealing?
The reason I ask is that there was a new gasket on the bike I bought..but it leaks at the base gasket, no matter if it was tourqed down to spec. Someone somewhere here mentioned the Tri Z cylinders are often warped and will not seal, is there any truth to that?

It does seem to be high quality, but the thickness is the same as what I got in a kit. Regardless, If yours won't seal, a better quality base gasket won't help.

I'm working on some cases right now. I've removed the studs and plan to lap my cylinder to the case with valve gringing compound. I try to lap in all cases and covers if possible. Unless yours is really our of whack you can try that, but removing the studs isn't easy and the two on the left side are discontinued, so don't ruin them.

Where is your leak? If it's where the case halves meet a dab of Yamabond on the case and gaskets might do the trick. You could also seal the entire thing with Yamabond, but I'd want to know where the problem was before deciding that was the way to correct it.

246725
246726

[El Camexican]

My bargain clutch cover being made pretty. I like to get rid of all the casting ridges in the cooling system. I don't know the exact math, but if there's a 1mm ridge all around a 17mm opening that has to represent a fairly large impedance.

246727

Same treatment for the inlet.

246731

All casting lines and ridges were removed and it was sanded smooth with 320 grit inside and out.

246732

Semigloss Ford Black

246733

246734

[El Camexican]

Time to lap the cylinder to the cases and clean up the cylinder. Starts with bolting the cases together and smearing the gasket surface up with compound. These cases were pretty scarred up. They appear to have been split numerous times by people with a large assortment of screwdrivers and steel hammers.

246781

Stuffed rags into the case holes. They'll get cleaned again, but the less compound I need to get out the better. This not something you want trace amounts of anywhere in an engine.

246782

Spent about an hour rotating the cylinder back and forth. Without the cases on a solid stand it's pretty awkward and there were lots of scuffs and scratches to get rid off. Interestingly the cases had a low spot on the corner where the cylinders are known to crack when a boost port is added. It didn't lap in for the first 30 minutes.

246787

There were two scratches that wouldn't clean up due to their depth and both ran straight across the thinnest portion of the sealing surface.

246793

The trick to fixing these is to carefully raise the surface with a punch. A couple taps on the inside edge of the cases and then a couple more right on the scratches, but not straight down, you need to tip the punch about 30 degrees towards the part you want to raise.

246799

Now lap until the high sports are gone and voila, no more potential leak.

246800

The cracked cylinder Neverlift gave me to practice porting on will be getting sleeved. The loop that the exhaust springs hook to had almost worn through. Rather than try to find someone to weld it I cleaned it up and placed a steel washer over the flat side of the loop and covered it with JB Weld. Now the springs will be pulling on the washer and not the aluminum.

246801

[El Camexican]

Decided to make it look as stock as possible, but without any casting lines or sharp edges.

246808
246809
246810
246811

Braked the heal out of the paint right after spraying.

[barnett468]

I like how that paint looks. What did you use?


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND THE ONLY PERSON ON 3WW WITHOUT AN EDIT BUTTON OR A STAR:Bounce

[El Camexican]

Duplicolor engine paint, Ford semigloss black.

It looks really glossy for a few hours and then looses just enough gloss to look factory black. I can't say enough good about this brand of spray, it wears really well and after dozens of power washes not a single flake comes off. As you're well aware, it's all in the prep and I always take a heat gun to it ASAP.

[christph]

Duplicolor engine paint, Ford semigloss black.

It looks really glossy for a few hours and then looses just enough gloss to look factory black. I can't say enough good about this brand of spray, it wears really well and after dozens of power washes not a single flake comes off. As you're well aware, it's all in the prep and I always take a heat gun to it ASAP.

You heat the paint with a heat gun immediately after spraying it? Is that supposed to harden it over normal drying?

[El Camexican]

You heat the paint with a heat gun immediately after spraying it? Is that supposed to harden it over normal drying?

Yes, just like oven baking a car, but you need to use common sense, or you'll burn the paint. I almost did on the clutch cover, saw a couple small bubbles start to form and backed off. The best way is to set the gun on low, stay back at least 8 inches and keep moving at all times. Pick a spot on the cover that's taped, or wasn't painted and touch it once in a while to see how hot it is. If it's too hot to keep your finger on it then it's time to turn the gun off and wait until it cools off before warming it up again. Try to keep the part warm for at least 30 minute

After that I like to let the part sit a while. The longer the better, as the paint isn't fully cured for at least a day or two, but you can handle it carefully after a couple hours.

I did this one the other day and was pressed for time. I only let it dry for about two hours before assembling it after painting, but I did keep it warm for over an hour first. This was a hack job. I probably spent less time prepping the entire engine than I spent on the Tri Z clutch cover alone.

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[Red Rider]

Braked the heal out of the paint right after spraying.Exactly! What he said. Going slow and applying the brakes is the best way to apply paint professionally. Always take your time prepping, masking, & painting, and your results can look this good also. Nice job El!

[El Camexican]

Exactly! What he said. Going slow and applying the brakes is the best way to apply paint professionally. Always take your time prepping, masking, & painting, and your results can look this good also. Nice job El!

LOL! I talk into my phone instead of typing at times. I got it in the States, so I think think it's calibrated for a gringo voice and has difficulty with a Canuck accent at times. Should have read "Baked the heck out of it"

[Red Rider]

Should have read "Baked the heck out of it"Thanks for the correction, but I bet you really said, "baked the H, E, double-hockey sticks out of it." :cool:

[barnett468]

...I bet you really said, "baked the H, E, double-hockey sticks out of it." :cool:

OMG...is this the new pg spelling of it? https://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thud.gif



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND THE ONLY PERSON ON 3WW WITHOUT AN EDIT BUTTON OR A STAR OR A CHANCE IN HELL OF GETTING EITHER . https://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

[MTS]

is she a runner yet?

[El Camexican]

is she a runner yet?


Not even close. Lots of work to do still. Might run in January.