Jimmy white 85 tecate racer question

[phantomtracer]

I just watched the 85 lake George ice race on YouTube.
They showed some up close shots of jimmy's race bike and it looked to be based on the 85 production bike but had the lower mounted radiators like the 86.
Does anyone have insight into this cool bike?

[bkm]

I believe that bike was built by Franks. It used a kx 250 gas tank and radiators. Lots and lots of trick parts on that bike.

[barnett468]

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yes, the tank and shrouds were from the kx as bkm mentioned and they were 1985's.

it actually had a kips valve engine and the frame was modified to fit the pipe.

the pipe was most likely a bassani.

cylinder work unknown but easily could have had a kx250 works cylinder . . all james from team green would have had to do was walk about 100 feet over to racing department and ask for one, otherwise bassani most likely ported it.

knobby tires that probably had screws.

front and rear were lowered.

factory 85 fenders . . front was modified.

[barnett468]

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I have no idea who built it but it certainly could have been franks as bkm suggested . . it also could have been bassani, however, that sort of project certainly could have been done in the r and d shop and in fact team green did have some things done in the r and d shop . . I did see one of the team green 3 wheelers in there one time but i forgot what james told me they were going to do.

the shop was supposed to be for r and d and racing only and was in a secured area that only we and racing had access cards to, but team green could easily get in there if they called and asked one of us or just banged on the door providing we didn’t have a prototype in there at the time.

In fact, the world’s fastest drag race motorcycle in its class was somehow built in there by another employee from the warranty department after everyone else had gone home . . a huge outdoor barbecue also somehow got made in there and lots of non kawi related bikes got restored in there, lol.

[phantomtracer]

Barnett468
It seems like the kawi atc team did not have the same factory support that Honda had.
Is that accurate?

[barnett468]

Barnett468
It seems like the kawi atc team did not have the same factory support that Honda had.
Is that accurate?

I'll post some info within the hour.

[barnett468]

.

Barnett468
It seems like the kawi atc team did not have the same factory support that Honda had.
Is that accurate?


Sorry about the long post . . I guess I got carried away but I thought more info would give you a bit more insight into how things worked in general, however, the extremely short answer would be, in general, yes, that is accurate.


As far as Team Green went, I don’t remember precisely, plus I didn’t follow what they did, nor did I ever ask them even though I usually ran into them at least once a week, however, there were no works parts or prototype parts or pre-production parts or anything unusual on any of their bikes . . Kawi made an optional heavy rear spring which I think both Jimmie and Donnie used, Jimmy ran a Bassani pipe and KX cylinder ported by Bassani and a KX ignition . . Donnie’s stuff was done by Klemm and he used the stock KXT ignition . . Then there were just the standard mods that everyone else also did like lowering the bike, installing a an extended swing arm axle etc . . Any Kawi rear shock that needed revalving was done by Ross at KYB in Santa Ana . . Jimmie got free tires from Hoosier.

In other words, anyone could have built a bike just like any Team Green bike but there is no way you could do that with a Honda . . Team green paid for all the bikes and parts . . As far as I remember, Jimmy was the only “factory” rider, meaning he was the only one getting paid by Kawi to race and it might have been around $100,000 a year.

I didn’t ride for Tram Green but they made me an honorary member when it suited their purpose, lol . . I was actually sponsored by the R and D department in that they gave me the bike, the van and a gas card and all I had to do was occasionally write a report on how the bike worked and the changes I made etc, just the same as if it was a regular test . . Contrary to several peoples belief, the bike I rode was completely stock except for the steering damper, Harry Klemm pipe, cylinder and head, Mikuni carb, 3” axle spacers, and a set of aluminum rear rims with Hoosier tires that Jimmy gave me at a San Diego stadium race after he looked at my stock tires and rims and felt sorry for me . . Well I holeshot that race with his used Hoosier tires and it took him a few laps to pass me, lol . . I did had a pair of forks that were 14 lbs lighter than the stock ones but some beginner took me out big time the first time I tried them and they got bent them beyond repair.


I never really talked to any of the Honda guys at the races . . I did have a few friends that worked at Honda though . . One was in the PR department and two had left Kawi R and D to work for Honda R and D, so I talked to them occasionally and knew from that a little about Honda worked. In general, the ATV teams at both places were secondary to the MX teams. Their better riders got more support than their second tier riders did . . I don’t know if any of them ever got a big salary from Honda but my guess would be that at least some of them like Dean Sundahl and Marty Hart did . . Honda did make some works parts for their ATV’s but of course this was because the Hondas were so slow when compared to the Tecate’s that they needed all the help they could get.




Below is the long version regarding Honda which are some excerpts from a thread on here by Mike Coe that will give some insight into how it worked at Honda and their management’s philosophy.

You can get more info if you read at least the following posts from him, 21, 37, 38, 44 and 59.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/40674-Atc-4-Me/page3


"The factory teams always want to get the contract negotiations and budgets set well in advance of the racing calendar.

Honda knew that if they sprang the surprise of having to run all Hondaline accessories like they did, Kawasaki would have already been set and unable to support another rider or two. Yamaha and Suzuki were not players in the world of 3 wheeler racing. It was Honda vs. Kawasaki only.

It was smart business for Honda, but unprofessional towards the riders. Like others have mentioned in these posts, I was living out a childhood fantasy of someday riding for the BIG TEAM. But like in Ricky Carmichael's and Jeremy McGrath's cases too, Honda was really pushing as to what they felt was necessary to get their moneys worth out of the racing team/riders.

The Honda 2 stroke 200's were clearly "works" like, and were faster than anything in their class, and nearly as fast as our 250's!! Steve Wright was never talented enough to ride this trike to it's potential, (IMHO) and thats why the Kawasaki guys were still more than competitive in that class.



I'll try to shed SOME of the crap that happened in 1985 and answer some other questions. I warn that this may get long. Even though I got the shaft on not winning the title in 1985, up until that time I was living out my wildest dream! I have lifelong memories and the good times far outweigh the bad!

Harry Klemm worked with me individually(in secret) and we tested some very good stuff. For the last National of the year at San Jose in 1985, Chuck gathered together all of the parts for us to test and come up with a combo that we liked best. While typical testing sessions were sometimes like splitting hairs to tell a difference, this day everything we tried kept making the trike faster and faster and faster.

When we left the raceway, I was ecstatic at how the trike was running. I KNEW I would be at the front at San Jose NO question. I had just come off of back to back victories at the last two Nationals and was in top form as well.

The testing session was held at Corona Raceway and was just incredible. While typical testing sessions were sometimes like splitting hairs to tell a difference, this day everything we tried kept making the trike faster and faster and faster.

When we left the raceway, I was ecstatic at how the trike was running. I KNEW I would be at the front at San Jose NO question. I had just come off of back to back victories at the last two Nationals and was in top form as well.

The cylinder that we chose for this race was a VERY custom reworked cylinder. The transfer ports were all epoxied up and recontoured and were VISIBLY modified. There was a boat load of work done to this cylinder. Chuck Miller my mechanic (and now current Honda Race Team Manager!) was convinced that the trike was clearly the best we had (using Turner components) for the season. The stopwatch doesn't lie. Somehow Steve Carter(Marty's mechanic) and Paul Turner felt that this cylinder was no good as it had clearly been run by them prior to making into our "pile" of leftovers for us to test.

Well, San Jose comes and we go out and set fast time in practice and Marty is struggling. I had absolutley no issue's… We were looking forward to wining three in a row! Chuck and I went to Sizzler that evening for dinner. Afterwards we went back to our hotel and were ready to call it a day. We were in my rental car when we came back to the Hotel and when we got there our Honda Box Van was GONE!! We both went into a slight panic and Chuck started making frantic calls before calling the Police and reporting it stolen. Just about this time, Wes McCoy, the team manager got ahold of Chuck and informed him that the van wasn't stolen. We both felt a huge relief, but then we asked, "Were is our van then?"

We were informed that Marty was unhappy with how his trike was running, and that his mechanic just wanted to "measure out" my top-end to possibly make a duplicate for Marty to try early the next day. I didn't like the sound of how things were going..... Not the night before the last National of the year!! Wes said "Don't worry, everything will be fine" "Just go and get a good night rest". I did not like it.

Chuck and I drove over to where Paul Turner had a friend with a shop there in San Jose. Nobody expected us to show up there. We parked about a block away and walked up to the open doors of this shop. Heres Wes, Steve, and Paul Turner all thrashing about and there's MY 3 WHEELER all torn apart!! I was LIVID! I started yelling at them asking WTF were they doing!! They just kept saying that they wanted to "copy" it so that Marty might be more competitive. Then Steve gets in my face saying I should be more of a team player and other crap like that. I had been getting royally screwed over for the entire year using the crap Paul Turner/ left over parts. I had it up to here with his and Steve Carter's BS. I let it fly.

Well, I drive to the race track the following morning and Chuck can't even look me in the eye and looks as if he is really digusted. I get my riding gear on and when I look my trike over it's got a completly different topend on it!! I couldn't F**** believe it!! Chuck assembled my trike with a brand new top end, with no time on it. It promptly stuck in the first practice session. Chuck thrashed like a madman to put on another top end. In his rush, he assembled the engine with another cylinder that had been bored first over, and without realizing it, he put it together with a standard size piston. When I kicked it over it did start, but you can imagine what it sounded like. They promptly called my race to the start and I don't really remember where I finished. Its amazing the thing ran at all By now I'm on fire!

In between races I worked my way over to Marty's area. (we were supposed to be a team, but Steve and Marty always parked away form the rest of Team Honda) Anyway, they see me coming and Wes and Steve rush over to keep me away. Nothing could, and I got close enough to see it. There it was in all its Glory!! Martys trike had MY TOP END AND PIPE mounted. I was stunned to say the least!

I was so frustrated with all the turn of events I just couldn't help it and I lost it. I was between tears and yelling for what seemed like minutes. The wind had completly left my sails thats for sure. All I could think of was how political this season had become, and how it wasn't any fun anymore, and how much of a TEAM it wasn't.

I can't remember my finish at that race (anybody know?) By the main Chuck had a decent combo bolted up, but I had like the last pick of the back row to start in the main. My finish still would have made me the points champion anyway, but Honda changed the points AGAIN to somehow allow Marty to collect a bogus championship. Even the Kawasaki guys knew it was all rigged. I did come away with a big pay check for the season, some consolation, but I still know I was the 1985 250 class champion. It still gripes me to this day. Can you tell ?



Another story?? This is where it really got going and cooking. OK

At the Loretta Lynn's National earlier that year(85) It was a two race deal. The first day was the motocross race which I won. I went 2-1 to Marty's 1-2, giving me the win. The next day was the woods race. I don't know how many of you out there ever ran one of the early woods races, but let me tell you, the start is KEY. After you enter the woods it is single file, no exceptions. There are very few places to pass if you can, but not many.

Donny Luce gets the holeshot and is riding very well. I think I'm in 4th or 5th and making good time. It is a long race. 3 hours or something. Guess what? These races are dead engine start. When the flag drops, you have to kick over your machine and go! Unknown to me at the start, Marty's trike fouls the plug and does NOT START! By the time his mechanic figures out he has a fouled plug its 5+ minutes later.

Well, they get this BIG Idea thinking NO one will know. They throw Marty's trike in his box van and take it down the road some miles to where the course comes out near the road. They unload, throw in a new plug, and they wait until they can hear racers approaching. Then Marty takes off..... IN THE LEAD! Since it is such a long race you have to pit for fuel and goggles and stuff. Donny held the lead from the start, and I was being filled in during the pit stops of my positions and of the mounting fiasco with Marty and the race. It was clear that some serious stuff was going to hit the fan.

Marty stayed in front and Donny was credited for second place and I was third I believe at the finish. Kawasaki had watched the stuff with Marty unfold and they protested. The Promoter (Dave Coombs) was a very honorable guy, but Honda had such an influence on these promotors that he said he couldn't act appropriately. He said that Marty SHOULD be DQ'd, and that Donny should be the victor, and me second.

After hours of behind the scene gesturing, they finally came out with the results. Donny first, MARTY SECOND and me third. Still totally bogus!!! I actually pulled in to the Kawasaki pits after the race because I was so mad at what was happening! Chuck informed me that if Marty didn't get at least 2nd place, he would have no shot at the points title. (too bad)

I still went out and won the Baja 1000 as my final race effort for Honda in November. My fourth BAJA 1000 victory in as many years. As a consolation, The Honda "A" team (Marty, Wax, Curtis Sparks) for the 1000 had what was supposed to be the fastest off road 250R of all time. Turner and Carter spent untold amount of time and effort building this missle that was supposed to spank everything and set a land speed record. My team, consisting of Tracy Dickson, Steve Wright and myself (B Team) had a few Turner components and we went testing right threre in Baja. We quickly learned that our stock pre-runners were faster than our Turner "prepped" race trike! We started swapping on stock OEM parts onto the race trike until it was faster than out worn out pre-runners. That is what we entered and used to win the Baja 1000 that year. What happened to the "A" team? Seems as though they broke down early in the race. Anyway, it was a sweet victory and my last ride for Team Honda ATC.

I have no ill feelings about Marty Hart either. He was an excellent racer, but there were some agonizing events towards the end of my racing career at Honda that he was involved with, along with some troubling personal issues with the ATC Team mangement and my feelings of being handicapped with "lesser" performance equipment from Paul Turner.

Marty DNF'd at least 2 races and SHOULD have been DQ'd at the woods race. But understand me on this! I have no ill feelings toward Marty Hart!!. He was/is a talented rider. Put yourself in his position. Everyone at Honda was bending over backward for him. It must have felt quite good at the time.

It all started in 1984 when Wes McCoy (team ATC manager) hired Paul Turner to develop the engines for the team, and also FORMER motocross team mechanic Steve Carter to be the mechanic for Marty and myself. No team riders had ever had a mechanic before. We all had to wrench on our trikes ourselves. I did, Dean did, everybody did.

Marty hadn't yet earned the sponsors and top engine tuner deals that the rest of the team members had. While he was getting some support from 3B Lightning Products (one of my original tuners) Marty had didn't have quite the support as some of the Team Honda riders. He instantly fell into favor with Paul and Steve. The stage was set! They became their own team!

At the start of the 85 season, Honda Mangement laid down this law. You must abandon ALL sponsors to be eligable to sign a contract allowing you to ride for Honda. THIS WAS CRAZY! I and most other racers then and now have a working relationship that benefits the sport. I had many long term sponsors that I had to go to and say, " I'm sorry, but I can't endorse your product anymore" Think about that! NO OUTSIDE SPONSORS! HONDALINE PRODUCTS ONLY. From apparel to oils to tires to engines, everything. This never sat well with me.

Many folks compared me to Bob Hannah for always speaking my mind no matter the circumstances. This outspoken way of mine likely put me in poor favor with management because I called it as I saw it! There was NO team at Team Honda during the 1985 season. I was doomed from the start. Even though I was winning some of the races, Marty HAD to win the championship at all costs, simple as that. Was I getting inferior performance parts from Paul Turner? You bet!

I did not want to lose any of my sponsors and felt that without their support in the previous years, my success at the races would have been less. I felt that I OWED THEM! It has been one of the hardest things I have ever done to this day. But for Marty it worked out perfectly. He didn't have as much support until the 1985 season. Now he had ALL of the support and then some. So, can you blame HIM? No.

I think Honda would have found an excuse to fire me except that some how aginst all their internal, mechanical, AND psychological efforts, I was somehow still winning and finishing well at the races. It was frustrating them as much as they were frustrating me. And with Marty's sometimes poor results, I believe they needed me as a saftey net just in case.

My resistance and "outspokeness" towards this arrangement is what led to much of the focus toward Marty. I never felt that what they were doing was right, and it was by no means a TEAM EFFORT. Curtis Sparks also felt as I did. Honda (Bruce Ogilvy) treated Curtis poorly during the 1985 season as well.

Honda's attempt at molding a "team" was to make it more like a baseball team. Honda management wanted the MACHINE to be in the limelight , NOT the RIDER. They wanted to make us all be seen and not heard. If some one got out of line (like me) they could be replaced like on a baseball team. Everyone looks the same, runs the same stuff, and its all about Honda, nothing else. The riders names change, but hopefully the results remain the same. HONDA WINS! This might also mean NO GIANT SALARIES FOR THE RIDERS!

Secondly, the Paul Turner stuff I was getting was slow and IMHO, Steve Carter didn't know much about 3 wheelers or tuning.. My bikes ran like crap and it soon became evident to me that I was a better tuner than Steve, and I told him so. Our relationship was strained from the beginning and he went to management and proclaimed he was only going to wrench for Marty. This all went down ugly as Marty lost his fuel tank at a Micky Thompson race. Steve proclaimed wrenching for 2 riders was too much and that he ONLY wanted to work with Marty. Hey, this was fine by me! Honda "borrowed" Chuck Miller to be my mechanic and Chuck was/is awesome. He also knew we were getting the shaft as far as performance parts went. He was also in the prime of his racing career and it was difficult for him to split time to wrench for me and still be competitive in his own racing. He still did an amazing job.

Again, Marty was/is an excellent rider. But a lot of luck is necessary sometimes as well, and he was having some bad luck in 85. Honda was determined that Marty was going to be champion no matter what because I guess he was their "yes man" and I was still bucking the so called "Honda only system".

So they changed the points system at least twice so that he would ultimately become the points champion. Like I said, The AMA will inform you that they have NO record of the 1985 race points system, and the employees at the AMA seem to really not want to be helpful when asking for data on that series. I never raced or rode a 3 wheeler after the 1985 Baja 1000 in November 1985. By early 1986 the writing was on the wall that 3 wheeler racing was on the way out and that quads were to be the "only" race in town.

Since I still felt that I was in the prime of my racing career, I did what I felt was necessary and started racing a Suzuki LT250 for DG Performance and all of my previous sponsors were there to help me out again. I can tell you that racing was FUN again!! Suzuki initially made a huge effort to race the quads, but it only lasted for a single season. I won many races on my Suzuki! Gary Denton and other quad riders had some epic battles. Gary Denton, like Jimmy White, was a master of the start.

By late 1986, Yamaha contracted me to race the soon to be released Banshee at the Baja 1000. Team Yamaha went 1-2 in that race. Yamaha continued to support my racing endeavors through the 1988 race season. I believe I was the last, full Factory sponsored ATV Racer at the time. Yamaha Motor Corporation was by far the nicest, most professional team I ever worked for hands down. Keith McCarty, you are still the man. Honda sure could learn some lessons from you!"
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[barnett468]

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After reading it again, I saw that I made some duplications in Mike Coe’s’ posts . . I also saw some areas that I could shorten, but unfortunately, I still don’t have an edit button, so my apologies for the errors.

[tecaterob]

Wow. this happens a lot more the people talk about.

[Tas Wheeler]

I think I may have just figured out why "the server is too busy at the moment please try again later" is happening.........Barnett468 is back!!��
Dude you sure can write a post��������

[bkm]

I just watched the video and that bike is not the Franks machine. The Franks machine was based off the 84.

[barnett468]

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I don’t know much about the purported Franks bike . . I was aware that there was some talk about having Franks build a frame but I never saw it, however, this doesn’t mean it didn’t happen . . If I recall correctly, the main reason they wanted Franks to build a frame was to get more ground clearance with the suspension bottomed . . I only rode one of Jimmy’s bikes one day when we were all at Saddleback and that one was his practice bike which had a stock frame.

The 84 bikes bottomed easily anyway when landing flat off medium to large jumps which allowed the frame to hit the ground . . Fortunately, we finally cured the problem for the 85 model but it almost didn’t happen, and I made all the engineers that Japan sent over for this particular test, very, very, unhappy.

[phantomtracer]

Great info barnett468,
Any info on the development of the 86?

[barnett468]

Great info barnett468,
Any info on the development of the 86?

cool, i'm glad you found it interesting . . again my apologies for the lengthy post but there is so much cool info, its hard for me to find a place to stop.

as far as the 86 goes, i can tell you everything you want to know because i did all the development testing on all the tecate's, but in short, for the 86 model, i went to japan for what was supposed to be a simple "final testing" of the original prototype model which i rode for 15 minutes, after which i declared it a total pos . . after that, a lot of calls were made between the japanese and r and d in the us after which i was allowed to make "some" changes . . after much arguing on nearly a daily basis between the japanese and japan and us r and d, i eventually completely redesigned/engineered most of the bike . . i basically used the frame, engine, handlebars, switches and rear wheels from it but the frame still needed changing which never happened. . everything else was new and i only had two weeks to do it on . . there's a bit more to this nightmare if you want to hear but i promise not to make it too long, lol.

[barnett468]

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TRIVIA

1. Kawasaki often had a contest for the naming of the 3 and 4 wheelers . . I think the winner would get $50.00 or something like that.

2. Team Green riders never did testing on the prototypes or pre-production models.

[phantomtracer]

Yes, give us the details.
For me back in the day I can remember the rear fender cracking almost immediately and the rear axle carrier shifted and
cracked causing me to wait for a new carrier.
I thought the 86 had much better suspension over my 84 and the power was easier to ride fast.
What issue did you have with the frame?
When in Japan did they have a 250 r to ride for comparison?
When testing the 86 was there talk that maybe they should not waste time on it since the ban was being talked about?
The 86 seems to be a much more polished bike.

[barnett468]

Yes, give us the details.
For me back in the day I can remember the rear fender cracking almost immediately and the rear axle carrier shifted and
cracked causing me to wait for a new carrier.
I thought the 86 had much better suspension over my 84 and the power was easier to ride fast.
What issue did you have with the frame?
When in Japan did they have a 250 r to ride for comparison?
When testing the 86 was there talk that maybe they should not waste time on it since the ban was being talked about?
The 86 seems to be a much more polished bike.



ok, i will post more in a while but heres just a little info for mow.


i never broke a fender or carrier on any of the 86 test bikes and i beat the bejesus out of them on motocross tracks as often as i could . . the other testing was mainly water, sand and generally smooth trails.

we had a honda in the us AFTER most of the 86 testing was done, but we he had no desire to make it anything like the honda, therefore, it wouldn't have mattered if we never had the honda . i could bottom out the rear of the honda at will with ease.

some of those that claim we simply tried to copy the honda not only couldn't possibly know because they were not there, they are also...well, umm, to be polite, simply mistaken.

by the way, that honda was brand new and probably only had 20 hours when i parked it never to be ridden again . . yes, i would love to buy it now for the original selling price, lol.

[barnett468]

.

Yes, give us the details.

For me back in the day I can remember the rear fender cracking almost immediately and the rear axle carrier shifted and
cracked causing me to wait for a new carrier.

I thought the 86 had much better suspension over my 84 and the power was easier to ride fast.

What issue did you have with the frame?

When in Japan did they have a 250 r to ride for comparison?

When testing the 86 was there talk that maybe they should not waste time on it since the ban was being talked about?

The 86 seems to be a much more polished bike.


85 VS 86 ENGINE POWER

Yeah, the better overall power of the 86 is mainly due to the valve engine, although it did have a slightly different bore and stroke also.


FRAME

The frame on the original prototype was ok for the other parts that were attached to it but as we added those massive forks and more rigid swing arm and stronger and wider rear axle to it, it seemed like it might have been a little weak . . There were some changes in the frame from prototype to production but nothing big that I remember, however, after we got the bike set up to the previous specs that I had arrived at in japan, it developed a steering head shake or maybe I should say that the steering head shake it originally had got worse . . They sent another guy from us r and d to japan for a few days to test with them to try and figure out exactly what the problem was because I had a lot of testing to do in the us, but they simply didn’t have enough time to find the cause.


REAR FENDER AND AXLE HOUSING CRACKING

If there were fender cracking on any bikes they would have fixed it before production because it’s bad pr to sell a bike that has fenders that crack soon after the vehicle is purchased, plus it would still be covered under warranty and they don’t like warranty claims . . It just wasn’t their mindset to build things like that, plus no one in r and d would have allowed a bike it to go into production that had a part that failed quickly.

Some people on this site blamed me for the magnets that came unglued from the KXT flywheels . . well, in fact, we never had a flywheel fail EVER, and we had some that probably had over 200 hours on them and most of that was at wot . . also, the team green riders that used the KXT flywheels never had one failed . . also, the flywheel on my race bike was one of the used ones that had over 200 hours on it, lol . . Neither I nor anyone else at any other r and department in the world can fix something that doesn’t break during testing.

The only thing I can say about parts from Kawasaki that break prematurely, is that they might have changed something in the design AFTER all the testing was done, however, we endurance tested pre-production bikes as the final test which in fact were either 100% identical to the production bikes or very close to them, therefore, if there was a problem, it certainly would have shown up there.

As far as the mysterious magnet problem goes, I don’t know the true facts behind the failures, however, I can tell you that these bikes were not intended to have the crap beat out of them for 30 friggen years without having even one single failure . . I certainly think the warranty on them has expired long ago . . as to some peoples claims that brand new replacement flywheels that were purchased several years after the bikes were produced had the magnets fall off, I would suggest that they were not exactly the same as the original . . this is because Kawasaki had two suppliers for their electrical parts and they might have run out of the originals and had the other supplier make some and they used crummy glue for some reason.

its also certainly possible that the orig supplier changed to a different glue at some point without Kawasaki’s knowledge, I simply don’t know, but one thing I can say to those that seem to complain so much about the magnets falling off is to simply buy a Honda if it’s that much of a problem for them or if the think the Tecate is a pos . . of course I wouldn’t be happy either if i bought an expensive new flywheel and it broke and left me stranded 10 miles from my camp with no beer in sight, but it’s simply not my fault.


TALK ABOUT THE BAN

I never heard any talk that japan intentionally wanted to make a bike that was just “passable” for 86 to limit development and mfg costs because they knew the ban was coming . . I also don’t think that was their intention, but the info below might explain a bit more . . there was talk about what to do with the 85 bikes when the ban came so they asked me to build a 4 wheeler out of the Tecate and use as many original parts as possible which I did, and it actually worked really well but need more development.


86 IS A MORE POLISHED BIKE

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that . . I guess I would equate it to the air cooled Honda vs the water cooled one . . they are vastly different, and every mfg typically tries to improve on their previous years model.

I can tell you this . . if I was engineering the first Tecate, would I have made it like the 86 right off the bat instead of like the 84? . . I really can’t say because I simply don’t know, however, I doubt I would have been that forward thinking at the time . . it might be similar to asking Honda why they didn’t make the 86 model in the first place or why gm didn’t make the 1955 corvette like the 2015 model or something.

The general styling, ergonomics, and dimensions of the 86 prototype was very similar to the production bike, and in general, I and everyone else at Kawi thought they were acceptable, so I had the basic framework to build upon . . if I was starting from a blank sheet would I have built the styling and ergonomics and dimensions that way? . . I don’t know that either, however, I think the dimensions and ergonomics would have at least been very similar but definitely not the styling . . I can’t even draw a good looking stick man and I’m not all that creative in the styling department although I did do at least a little of it at Kawi.

If you are simply referring to how the 86 bike works as a whole, then yes, I had total control over that, so if you like it, well I guess I did a good job . . If you hate it then I guess I did a bad job . . there’s just no two ways about it, and my idea, which was the same as everyone else’s in us r and d, was to build the highest performance bike we could with the restrictions we had, that with little effort, could easily, and affordably, be turned into a competitive race bike.

My specific focus was to make it work as well as possible on a true motorcycle mx course which is why it will easily spank the bejesus out of a Honda in rough conditions . . anyone that can ride a rough track half way fast and has ridden both bikes in stock form on a rough track will easily be able to tell the difference . . I had no desire, or intention, of making it a flat track or sand dune bike.

I can also tell you that at least one magazine compared the 86 KXT and 86 Honda and 86 Yamaha, and for some odd reason, they claimed the Honda didn’t bottom out but the Kawi did . . Well if that was the case, and they increased the compression damping by turning the adjustment knob on the rear shock, and it still bottomed, they had a faulty shock, and if they had called us and told us it had this problem, they would have had a brand new shock hand delivered to them and installed the same day or the next day . . They also said it was impossible to “power shift” the Tecate . . that’s simply impossible for me to believe because all the test bikes shifted easily under full throttle the way I rode them anyway, and no one else in r and d noticed a shifting problem.

Here’s one of the articles in case you haven’t seen it.

http://www.quadpit.com/mags/1986/stories/250shootout01.html


85 VS 86 SUSPENSION

As you probably know, the 86 has more travel then the 85 and the more travel there is, the more “plush” the ride can be with the same amount of resistance to bottoming . . there is enough adjustment in that suspension that a pro level rider weighing 165 lbs with his gear, could set the bike up with the existing shocks and damper rods and springs etc and race it on the Carlsbad or Saddleback motorcycle MX track and the Saddleback track is moderately wicked, and the Carlsbad is one of the wickedest tracks in the world.

Both the R and D and racing department used to have the rear shocks revalved at KYB by Ross Maeda which was around 1 mile from our old shop in Santa Ana, but after we moved to the new building, we got an MTS machine that they sent us from the Lincoln Nebraska plant when the snowmobile division closed . . We used this to map the damping of the shocks and measure the temp and fade rate and and one of the guys from R and D started revalving them.




THE 86 TECATE’S DEVELOPMENT HISTORY

In 85, Kawi japan was going thru some reorganization or something and I think they wanted to do more of the r and d over there and send us more finished bikes that only needed small refinements which would have worked out fine, except that they didn’t have riders that were capable of riding the bike nearly as fast as the us riders, plus, their riders didn’t have the technical experience to know what needed to be changed to fix a particular problem the bike had so they had to tell the engineer what the bike was doing and most of the engineers didn’t really know how to ride so they couldn’t fully relate to what the rider was telling them, so you can see the multiple of problems with what they were trying to do.

They did have one rider they sent to the us for me to train and he got to be an xlnt novice or low intermediate level rider which was ok, and he developed enough skill to relate a bikes problem to an engineer half way decently . . He was a really nice and cooperative person and Iiked him a lot . . Unfortunately, they sent him to another department and had these other “expert” riders take his place and unfortunately, these guys couldn’t beat Donald duck if they were given a half lap lead in a 100 yard race, which I, and they, found out the first day at the test track . . It was blatantly obvious to me after my first ride on the pos at the test track, that none of these guys had ever seen anyone actually go fast on one of these in person . . I’m not trying to imply that I’m a Jimmy White or a Marty Hart, but I was FAR from slow, especially on the extremely rough tracks like theirs because that’s what I mainly rode, however these guys were like slow novices compared to me.

Anyway, after every days test, we would have a meeting with around 5 of the big managers and the guys they sent testing with me . . not a single one of them spoke English so they assigned a guy that had previously worked for around two years at us r and d whom was my friend but whom also spoke very little English . . Well I would tell him that I needed an axle that was 3 inches wider that had less flex, and he would tell them that and they would talk amongst each other for a few minutes with some occasional yelling going on, then they would tell him what they decided and he would tell me that they couldn’t change the axle because they already made the very expensive final mold for it and I told them that it was simply unacceptable for a performance bike therefore there was no point in continuing with the test if they can’t change it, so he would tell them what I said and they would yell at each other some more then finally tell him ok, he can have a new axle…ok, good . . Now, on to the well ext problem, I need a new this and a new that, after which the exact same process occurred with the same no for an answer to which I gave them my same reply, and again, they eventually relented.

Now, there is a concept called “uniform flexibility”, where in general, everything on a particular vehicle should have a similar “flexability” number . . In other words, if you put a stiff rear axle on a 3 wheeler that is designed the be “flexy”, the forks and frame will become flimsier because the stiff axle puts more load on them and so on . . I think the original 86 prototype fork tubes were only a millimeter or so bigger than the 85’s, and I could tell they were flimsy, so we had another meeting and went thru the same process, and it was another ordeal, but they again, finally relented . . I told them the size I wanted which is the same that the production bike . . I have no idea how they did it, but I think I had the axle and forks in my hand after around 3 days max, and they didn’t look like any cobbled up hastily made parts, so they had to have worked on them 24 hours a day, and it probably would have cost $40,000 or more at the time if I were to have these things custom made.

In the end, I find out that the reason they were so unhappy and yelling at each other is because the guy in charge of the project told his bosses that the bike was fine and only needed minor improvements, so he had the final molds made for nearly everything which costs a fortune, and they only needed me to come over and do some fine tuning on the suspension, so he was in very deep s__t and I was NOT on his list of best friends, lol.

The test track was in the rural country areas maybe 30 miles from Kawi . . along the way, we passed several rice patties where people were working . . The Honda test track was on the same road around 4 miles before ours . . The Kawi track was hard and dry with monsterous pot holes everywhere, so one day I hit one wrong and bailed hard and messed my shoulder socket up so I was done, but there was still some testing to do which included a different front wheel, so I think I asked them if they could have the guy I trained test it because I knew he was their best rider . . He was also not a “yes’ man, meaning that he would not let them talk him into accepting something he thought was egregiously bad.

Anyway, low and behold, there he was in the parking lot the next day waiting for us, so I asked him why the f they didn’t have him testing the bike, which is when he informed me that they had transferred him to some other department that he didn’t like . . So we get to the track, and I have him tell me what the bike is doing so I can try and determine what will make it better so I tell him or my interpreter what I think so they can relay it back to the engineers…nice system huh?

The last major test to do was the front wheel because it seems that in their infinite wisdom, they thought that the 84/85 wheel and tire was just fine, which I told them it wasn’t, so I told them to make the size that is currently on it as my best guess of what I thought would be best . . I think it only took them two days to make the tire and rim which probably only costs them $6,000.00 . . This was the last major test to do, but unfortunately [or fortunately],I had to leave before that.

Soooo, a little time goes by during which we in US R and D are all thinking that Japan was spending building the new prototype to the latest specs, and we’re all excited to see this new killer marvel . . So the crate finally arrived, and with great excitement and anticipation, I quickly rip the crate off of it so I and the others could see this beauty . . Well, guess what…it was almost exactly the same as the original pos prototype but with the addition of the beautiful front rim and tire I had asked them to make.

Well after calling them every name in the book and feeling very depressed because I saw that nearly all the friggen effort and bodily sacrifice I put into it to make it good had gone to waste, we regrouped and simply started from almost scratch the next day wasting time going out and testing it until it once again, it had every single part I had originally had them make, back on it.

It was obvious that the manager of the project in Japan was simply hoping that we would get frustrated and give up and just accept what they sent us so he could save face, and his a_s, by being able to reuse the molds he had originally made . . Well, that wasn’t gonna happen…ever, lol.

So, long story short [yeah right], we sent them all the same specs they already had, and when the pre-production model finally showed up, it was almost exactly what was sold to the public with only minor changes we made during final testing which included a different exhaust pipe . . The thing was such a pos in the beginning, that the power characteristics were the last thing on my mind, because I couldn’t ride it anywhere near its full potential, and the engine was pretty decent the way it was anyway.

We received 3 different pipes for it and they were all tested on the dyno . . As it ended up, the best overall pipe was not the one that made the most horsepower because it made it a little too “pipey”, but it sure was fun.

Now, if that story sounds like a fiasco, I’ll be happy to tell you the one about the best 4 wheeler that was never made…the extended frame Tecate 250 4 wheeler prototype which they passed on and built the grossly substandard Tecate 4 you see today instead.

[christph]

Wow, what a great read! I take it you were a rider and/or engineering consultant for Kawi back in the day. I love my Tecates. I have an 84, 86, and 87. I have an 86 250R and 86 Tri-Z too and have often thought about their respective strengths and weaknesses. If I could go back in time and make some recommendations for the 2nd generation Tecate, I would advise the following:

1) A 6 speed transmission rather than a 5 speed (which are too closely spaced). I can't seem to get the gearing right. Either it's too low and I want more top end or it's too high and I want more low end.

2) Use 9 inch rather than 10 inch rims on the rear with 110 or 115 hubs. The 156 hubs don't allow for smaller rims; you have to run 10 inch. The 10 inch rims may make for a stiffer side wall and better sliding traits but it also makes for a rougher ride. The suspension needs to be set up better with a 10 inch rim, whereas the 9 inch is more forgiving.

3) An inch narrower front tire. I believe it is 8 inches whereas Honda's is 7 inches. I think this would make the steering a bit more precise.

4) A larger rider compartment. I'm 6 ft--perhaps not the target height--but it seems like the overall machine could be 5% larger. A 1 or 2 inch longer swing arm would have been good too.

5) A seat/fender the comes off with a latch. It might weigh more but the two bolts are a pain and strip over time.

6) Chain and disc brake guards that don't bend with the first hit.

7) And finally, better overall build quality and reliability. The stators don't last and the frame could be a more robust.

[phantomtracer]

Awesome story!
That is funny, I can picture the back and forth bickering.
Still what a great experience to have been involved in all that.
What was the time frame of the testing and pre-pro models. Was it early 85 that you rode the first pre-pro model?
I had a 84 and 86 model and thought the 86 was better on every level. That is funny that you mention head shake, I did have a RAM steering stabilizer on it.
My brother had an 86 250R and we both felt the 86 kxt was a much better race bike.
So in the end Kawi gave in to most of your recommendations?

[barnett468]

Wow, what a great read! I take it you were a rider and/or engineering consultant for Kawi back in the day. I love my Tecates. I have an 84, 86, and 87. I have an 86 250R and 86 Tri-Z too and have often thought about their respective strengths and weaknesses. If I could go back in time and make some recommendations for the 2nd generation Tecate, I would advise the following:

1) A 6 speed transmission rather than a 5 speed (which are too closely spaced). I can't seem to get the gearing right. Either it's too low and I want more top end or it's too high and I want more low end.

2) Use 9 inch rather than 10 inch rims on the rear with 110 or 115 hubs. The 156 hubs don't allow for smaller rims; you have to run 10 inch. The 10 inch rims may make for a stiffer side wall and better sliding traits but it also makes for a rougher ride. The suspension needs to be set up better with a 10 inch rim, whereas the 9 inch is more forgiving.

3) An inch narrower front tire. I believe it is 8 inches whereas Honda's is 7 inches. I think this would make the steering a bit more precise.

4) A larger rider compartment. I'm 6 ft--perhaps not the target height--but it seems like the overall machine could be 5% larger. A 1 or 2 inch longer swing arm would have been good too.

5) A seat/fender the comes off with a latch. It might weigh more but the two bolts are a pain and strip over time.

6) Chain and disc brake guards that don't bend with the first hit.

7) And finally, better overall build quality and reliability. The stators don't last and the frame could be a more robust.


Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the input . . I was in charge of the 3 and 4 wheeler department for Kawasaki of Japans US based division which was in the same building as US Kawasaki and Team Green and the racing department.

You probably noticed in my post that we didn’t want to build a "Honda" and were more focused on building a higher performance bike than the Honda, so along with that type of bike come sacrifices in areas of comfort, such as not having tires with more sidewall for a softer ride and softer suspension etc, but I will try to give you a little insight about some of the things on the Tecate that might explain things better.

If you build something that tries to fit all peoples riding style and intended use, you end up with a bike that is just an average performer in every category except for the boring one . . It simply cant be done.

Im my previous post, I mentioned that it was built for very high performance just like the 84/85 was at the time . . The target was not in any way, shape, or form, intended for a beginner rider or a passive rider . . it was designed for more experienced riders that want to go wot and beat the crap out of the thing and fly off the biggest dune they can find at wot . . The Honda is a WAY more user friendly bike . . We did not want a user friendly bike . . We wanted to scare the bejesus out of people when they floored the throttle, lol.

I was out at Perris raceway one day and Jimmy was out testing the new 86 that they had already set up for racing but the cylinder was stock and he had around a 20 lb weight strapped to the number plate and I asked him what that was there for and he said it was to help keep the front end down when he opened the throttle, lol . . So I told him all he had to do was move the bars forward and sit farther forward . . his problem was that he was so used to riding the earlier bikes that he was riding this one the same way . . Of course it would have worked better for him if I had made it as heavy as a Christmas pig but then it would not have been as neutral in the air and it would have had less traction in the rear but he obviously adapted to it just fine after a while.


ERGONOMICS

All I can say here is that jimmy white is around 6’ and weighs maybe 185 – 195 and he had no problem riding the 84/85 bikes which is evidenced by his multiple championships on them . . Donnie Luce is also a big guy and he had no prob . . I am around 5’ 10” and weigh less than that and I had no problem . . I don’t remember how the ergos were on the 86 Honda compared to the 86 Tecate but I don’t remember a big diff and the Honda was fine for me . . they always seemed to do a good job in that department as well as in many others.


TIRE TO RIM SIZE

I hate the Honda rear tire to rim size for most types of riding and so did everyone else at kawi so something like that was simply not going to happen, plus it would have had more of a tendency to roll over when pushed hard in the turns.


FRONT TIRE WIDTH

A narrower tire would have dug in a little bit more in sand . . Lot's of people won races using that tire also.


TIRE DESIGN

The Honda tires use a soft sidewall, I don’t remember what the ply was on the 250r tires but they sure rolled under in a turn . . We spend days on end doing tire testing on several different tore tread patterns, plies and compound etc and the engineers from the tire mfg come over from japan for some of the tests, so it is an incredibly rigorous process . . It's not just a matter of saying, “Hey, those look cool, let’s use em!” . . I can tell you that many of the tires had way too much side traction and would hook and dig in and almost throw whoever was riding over the bars, I kid you not, so on the Tecate's, the tires are specifically designed to slide yet have extremely good grip in straight line acceleration.


NEEDS MORE ROBUST FRAME

What problems did you have with your frame? . . I mentioned in my previous post that I would have preferred to try a little stronger frame but we never broke one.


6 SPEED TRANSMISSION

Never tested a 6 speed in a Tecate because none of us thought it needed one, and again, Jimmie won several championships with a 5 speed and hole shot many races and he was HEAVIER than most of the other riders AND he was running a modified production cylinder while some of the Honda guys were running works stuff . . also, more gears are not always better and you can find yourself inbetween gear in turns with a 6 speed . . obviously Honda won plenty of races with a 6 speed but I personally don’t like them for racing and if you drag race both bike in stock form, the Kawi will consistently beat the Honda . . I know this because this was one of the tests and I and one other guy did this test so the 6 speed was no benefit there.


LONGER SWING ARM

Again, we couldn’t build it to suit everyone’s riding styles and we tested both the 86 Honda and the Tecate side by side racing each other on both bikes for hours and days on end to see if we wanted to change anything because we certainly could have and we didn’t see a need to . . Also, I raced the pro class with a stock 84/85 type swing arm that I simply slotted the carrier mounting holes to extend it around 3/4” and I won a few local pro races that way, finished 2nd at the LA Coliseum, 5th at big bear and Jimmie was there.

I beat him, Donnie Luce and I think Marty Hart along with a lot of other good riders when I won a short track race at Saddleback, so all this is proof that one does not need these longer swing arms to go fast . . if I could beat the worlds 3 best riders along with several other top riders with a 3/4” longer swing arm, then I think the stock length is just fine for recreational riders because I don’t think I'm all that different than anyone else . . My point being, if I can do it, than others can to . . I tell people to learn how to ride their bikes to their maximum potential before they start modifying them because unless they do, the mods won’t make them go any faster.


COMPARING HONDA VS KAWASAKI

After most of the testing was done, we took several people out to compare the Tecate to the Honda so they could tell us what, if anything, they didn’t like, and aside from the vibration, there wasn’t really anything . . Yes, they all thought the Honda had a plusher ride and so did I, but again, you can’t have your cake and eat it too and neither could we, so for the intended target market, they all preferred the Kawi and this is not a dig at Honda because the Honda is a great bike but I’m guessing that their target market was simply different than ours in this particular case.


AVAILABLE POWER

If one simply removes the stock silencers from both bikes and install regular ones and jet both bikes, the Honda will be a little faster than it was but they better get some health insurance if they you plan to ride the tecate.


PERCENTAGE OF TECATES AT THE RACES

In 84 and 85, my guess is that there might have been 2 Tecate's to every 10 Honda's at the races and maybe 3 to 10 on some occasions . . In 86 at the Washougal national which Kawi won, the numbers were much more even . . Below is part of a cool video from that race.


RACE VIDEO

Here’s a cool video of an 86’ Championship 3 wheeler race with several 30 Tecate’s which was of course won by a Kawasaki . . Enjoy the first 30 seconds as poor factory Honda rider Marty Hart gets SMOKED on the start by a sea of Tecate’s, then is literally blown off of his bike buy the horrendous roost thrown at him buy these powerful machines as their as their rear tires spin wildly due to the abundant horsepower produced by its uber powerful engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9E9OaUllsY

[barnett468]

Awesome story!
That is funny, I can picture the back and forth bickering.
Still what a great experience to have been involved in all that.
What was the time frame of the testing and pre-pro models. Was it early 85 that you rode the first pre-pro model?
I had a 84 and 86 model and thought the 86 was better on every level. That is funny that you mention head shake, I did have a RAM steering stabilizer on it.
My brother had an 86 250R and we both felt the 86 kxt was a much better race bike.
So in the end Kawi gave in to most of your recommendations?

Thanks, glad you liked it

there’s more to it like having some “beverages’ and singing karaoke with the manager of Kawasaki japan and having a food fight at a dinner he was at that they held in my behalf, but those are a different topic, lol.

Yeah the bickering made my translator friend extremely uncomfortable . . he was in a bad position because he was stick in the middle with these guys getting mad etc.

Yeah, the stabilizers were a neat part . . I ran one on my 84/85 bike.

Yes, they gave in to pretty much everything but it was like pulling teeth for every part . . it really wasn’t fun, I didn’t like the situation at all . . it was not like that with the 84 bike . . keep in mind that the 86 was a rushed job, so I would have liked to do further testing with different things, but as it was, because of the “debacle”, the release date was already delayed so we simply had no more time . . at some point, you have to move one because there are other projects to do.

I was also one of the main fabricators so I was a very busy guy . . I had to hand build an entire watercraft project from scratch and do the atv’s at the same time . . they certainly tried to get their money’s worth out of me, lol.

Now that I mentioned watrercraft . . I remember some very good times there too.

I don’t remember, the exact time frame for the 86 but it was definitely not early in 85 . . I went in to work one day and they said, go to la and get a passport because you have to go to japan tomorrow for two weeks to test the new tecate and that was the first time I saw it.
.

[christph]

Great video. Makes me nostalgic for the golden age of 3-wheelers. Regarding my comment about a more robust frame, my 86 is developing a crack where the foot peg connects to the frame. As far as I can tell the tube seems a little thin.

[atc300r]

Kawasaki not being like Honda 216669 My favorite Jimmy White pic.216668

[barnett468]

Kawasaki not being like Honda 216669 My favorite Jimmy White pic.216668

well yes, all of us at us r and d thought the red kxt was a bit odd also believe me, and i can assure you that we had absolutely nothing to do with picking the color . . we didn't even know they were going to do that . . it simply arrived in a crate one day, and when i opened it up, i thought they had shipped us a nice new honda to test, lol.

all i can say in kawasakis defense [as if there is any defense for the red tecate], is that honda didn't own the patent on red, and our red is not the same as the honda red, and honda made green bikes too . . yes, i know, this is a bad example and a very weak excuse, but it's the best i can do.

http://www.shannons.com.au/library/images/auctions/Y4H4X6X7Y9M4S2D1/medium/c1975-honda-cb5504-motorcycle.jpg

[barnett468]

.
I have actually owned more Hondas than kawasakis, so I certainly have nothing against them, and again, i think the 250r's are bitchen bikes . . I worked at one of the biggest Honda and kawi dealerships in the us around 1975 thru 1977 . . they were also a bultaco, bsa, and triumph dealer, and we all rode the new bikes when they came in including the atv’s and the most impressive street bikes were the Honda 750 and of course the kawi 500 and 750 . . if you have never ridden one of those kawis, you should try it sometime . . the first guy at our shop to ride it unintentionally did a wheelie for around 50 feet when he hit the throttle as he left, lol . . they were literally quite scary to ride.

harry klemm actually built a a kawi h1 one for ahrma vintage racing and i think it won every race it entered . . it also broke a land speed record in its class at Bonneville . . harry and his brother built and raced f5’s or 350 big horns . . I also had one of those.

The klemm h1 story

http://www.klemmvintage.com/kaw500h1.htm


the klemm f5 story

http://www.klemmvintage.com/Bighorn-Bison-recreational.htm

[phantomtracer]

Yes, very strange that it came in red.
I ordered mine in 84 and the shop owner says he has one coming in color red, took me a long time to get used to that color.

[barnett468]

Yes, very strange that it came in red.
I ordered mine in 84 and the shop owner says he has one coming in color red, took me a long time to get used to that color.

not only did it come in red . . red was the FIRST color it came in . . you could not even buy a green one in the beginning . . what in the world were they thinking?

we kept looking down at the red gas tank during testing and kept thinking it was a honda.

[barnett468]

.

My favorite Jimmy White pic.............216668

If you like cool airfooler photos, here's one of Donnie Luce, before he switched to "The Tecate...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The World." . . Look how wide his rear axle is, lol.

.............................................http://www.airfoolers.com/interviews/luce/luce.jpg


Here's one of my favorite pics of Jimmie White on his National Championship Winning TECATE! :) . . I was out testing at the same location the day they took this so I stopped to watch . . The photographer had him do that slide maybe 5 times . . I actually don't think either he or Donnie won a big race before they switched over to "The Tecate...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The World.".

...........................................http://www.atvscene.com/images/white3wheeler.jpg

[barnett468]

.
This race has some cool slow motion footage . . It has Jimmie White, Mike Coe, Marty Hart, Curtis Sparks, Mark Weixeldorfer, Eddie Sanders, Steve Wright, Mickey Dunlap and several others.

It is one of the first races for the Tecate and it got 3rd place with Jimmie White riding, whom weighed around 185 lbs or more without his gear . . He was not the best rider there was at the time and Honda had a couple of years to develop their bike, so all in all, not a bad outing for a first year bike that was designed by a motorcycle engineer, not an ATV engineer.

Notice how a Honda rider jumps the start . . You might be able to hear the announcer, Larry Huffman, announce his name but I couldn’t quite make it out . . In fact, a Honda rider jumped the start at several races . . Curtis Sparks HONDA quit running but the first year Tecate, just keeps happily motoring along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ0PuvGfSws

[Red Rider]

Notice how a Honda rider jumps the start... In fact, a Honda rider jumped the start at several races .Just as Honda was known for making the most dependable ATC's, their factory racers were known for having the quickest of cat-like reflexes.


I just watched the 85 lake George ice race on YouTube.
They showed some up close shots of jimmy's race bike and it looked to be based on the 85 production bike but had the lower mounted radiators like the 86.Now that's a very cool Tecate! That's how they should have come from the factory in the first place, with the radiator(s) mounted in the proper place.

[Keith Salyer]

Jimmy had won San Jose while riding his 82 Honda. Also that was Mickey who jumped the start. That is a cool video.

[barnett468]

.

Just as Honda was known for making the most dependable ATC's...
Ok, I decided to do a simple check to try and verify that to some degree, so I typed in “Honda cdi” into the sites search engine, and it came up with 500 threads, which is the maximum the search site can hold, so there are obviously more than that.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/search.php?searchid=9498631


I then searched the same thing but for just 1 year and newer and it came up with 93 threads.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/search.php?searchid=9498642


Then, in the interest of fairness, I also typed in “Kawasaki cdi”, and there were only 135 listed from the time the site first began over 10 years ago, hmmm…

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/search.php?searchid=9498634




...their factory racers were known for having the quickest of cat-like reflexes.

true, so this is an even further testament to the superior power of the tecate over the honda since jimmie white, whom weighed more than all the other top riders, was not only near the front of the pack on most of the starts, he in fact hole shot many of them, however, i have done more flag starts than a lot of people, and i was in fact one of the top starters with a flag and a forward and rearward falling gate in all of my races, and i can assure you that there is a HUGE difference between getting a good start because you have faster reflexes than the other riders, and taking off BEFORE the flag goes.

they don't restart a race simply because one guy gets a noticeably better start than others . . the flag guy knows exactly when he moves the flag, so he obviously knows if someone takes off BEFORE he moved it . . also, these were basically races that honda set up and/or sponsored, therefore, why would they restart a race when a honda rider jumps the gate unless it was blatantly obvious to many people that this is what happened.

if you jump the gate in speedway, you automatically have to start from the back row . . this penalty is designed to reduce this problem because it is a pita for all involved to start a race, then have to go back and line up again and start it over.

even when honda put marty harts bike in the van after it loaded up on the start of the loretta lynn national, then drove it down the road so they could let him off in front of all the other riders including donnie luce, whom was the true leader and winner of the race, they at least didn't jump the flag on the start, lol.




Now that's a very cool Tecate! That's how they should have come from the factory in the first place, with the radiator(s) mounted in the proper place.

the tecate was the first 3 wheeler to be water cooled . . I think that is a bit of advanced thinking in and of itself . . it also had the radiator placed where there was the greatest amount of air flow . . this doesn’t sound like a bad idea to me either . . it also, cooled the bike just fine . . it also cost less to make so the final selling price of the bike was less . . this doesn’t sound like a bad idea to me either . . we also never broke a radiator in testing and I only cracked one bracket on my race bike after the bike took a horrendous crash and that rad had around 200 hours of testing on it . . none of the team green riders ever broke one that I know about, so other than the somewhat odd “industrial” appearance, I don’t see any problem with it.

Do I like the look of it? . . I don’t think its horrible.

Do I prefer the look of the rad position on the 86 and honda better? . . yes.

Is it easier to design things in “hindsight”? . . yes

There were bias ply tires before there were radial tires.

There were carburetors before there was fuel injection.

There was manual ignition advance before there was centrifugal advance etc.

[Ghostv2]

I don't read books, but I do enjoy reading barnetts posts of the behind the scenes at Kawasaki after a long day at work.

[barnett468]

.

Jimmy had won San Jose while riding his 82 Honda.

cool, thanks for the info . . i either forgot or i never knew that, its been a while.



Also that was Mickey who jumped the start. That is a cool video.

thanks for that info too . . by coincidence, I was watching some other old 3 wheel racing videos also and the one below of a 200 cc national was on there, which shows him jumping the flag again at the 4:30 mark which caused another restart, and the announcer said that Jimmie White didn’t even leave the line because he saw what had happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBM5lppypbs



That is a cool video.

by the way, I came across this post from you on another site when I was looking at tecate stuff . . very cool . . i also saw your other post on joseph farrow's racing thread.

“Before the AATVA got involved in about 1984 different promoters like Micky Thompson, Saddleback park ect. in the had their own races or nationals some people called them. In 1983 the same weekend that San Jose was having a national we were at a national in Illinois in the southern tip and that was the first time I met Jack and Jackie Meadows. They had a large attendance at that race and I ended up 4th in open pro and 8th or so in 250 pro. I had not brought any tear offs with us from Oklahoma and they watered right before the start of the 250 pro main. That hurt after the first lap I had to toss the goggles and promptly started loosing positions.”

[yaegerb]

.
Ok, I decided to do a simple check to try and verify that to some degree, so I typed in “Honda cdi” into the sites search engine, and it came up with 500 threads, which is the maximum the search site can hold, so there are obviously more than that.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/search.php?searchid=9498631


I then searched the same thing but for just 1 year and newer and it came up with 93 threads.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/search.php?searchid=9498642


Then, in the interest of fairness, I also typed in “Kawasaki cdi”, and there were only 135 listed from the time the site first began over 10 years ago, hmmm…

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/search.php?searchid=9498634





Or it means.....more people on this site own Honda's than Kawi's...:w00t:

[Joseph Farrow]

Jimmy had won San Jose while riding his 82 Honda. Also that was Mickey who jumped the start. That is a cool video.

I was at that race in '83. IIRC that was the first "National" the Tecate ran. It did very well against the Big Boys. Jimmy was a natural rider. He made it look easy.

My Father and Mother are in this pic......I'll let you guess who they are. LOL
216673

Jimmy and Eddie Sanders
216674

216675 216676 216677 216678

[bkm]

Please stop with the denial of Tecate stator failures. Maybe they didn't grenade while you were there, but the failures over the last 15-20 years are well documented. The reason you'll find more honda threads is because they made about five times more of them. Stop beating a dead horse. Anyone who has owned one of these bikes recently can attest to their flywheel and stator failures.

[phantomtracer]

When was the 84 and 86 available for purchase.
If San Jose national was the summer of 83 when could a regular customer purchase one.

[Red Rider]

Ok, I decided to do a simple check to try and verify that to some degree, so I typed in “Honda cdi” into the sites search engine, and it came up with 500 threads, which is the maximum the search site can hold, so there are obviously more than that. Then, in the interest of fairness, I also typed in “Kawasaki cdi”, and there were only 135 listed from the time the site first began over 10 years ago, hmmm…Well, I don't know what you searched for, as all your links return the same message, "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms." But, the reason why you got so many threads with that search criteria is, Honda made more models than Kawasaki, plus they sold more of them as well. What you should have searched for was "Honda 250R cdi." By the way, my 250R is still running on it's original cdi/stator/flywheel, hmmmm. :wondering


...the tecate was the first 3 wheeler to be water cooled . . I think that is a bit of advanced thinking in and of itself . . it also had the radiator placed where there was the greatest amount of air flow . .Indeed it was! But if you think about it, it wasn't really that far advanced of an idea. It's just the natural progression of technology. Afterall, motocross bikes were once air-cooled then advanced to water-cooled in about 1983 or so. Since the Tecate owes it's roots to the KX, it's only natural that it should have a water-cooled engine. Yes, again Kawasaki did it first, congratulations! Again though, the KXT's engine came practically right out of the KX, along with the rear Uni-Trak suspension system. So, why not mount radiators on the frame? After all, the KX had frame mounted radiators and no cooling issues, so why should the Tecate have cooling issues? Now that would have been advanced thinking.


Do I like the look of it? . . I don’t think its horrible.No need to get all upset. I like the looks of '85 Tecates too, but I really like the look of Jimmy White's "works" Tecate in that video.

This debating thing is fun. Sorry Phantom, if this is cluttering up your thread, but it is getting Barnett to tell more stories with each response.

[barnett468]

Please stop with the denial of Tecate stator failures.
I see no point to this type of comment . . They serve no purpose and don’t benefit anyone . . I posted everything I know about the tecate flywheels earlier in this thread and on a previous thread, and I’m not going to waste my time debating this subject with anyone . . As I said previously, if people don’t like the Kawi , do not buy one . . If they own a Kawi and don’t like it, quit complaining about it and simply sell it . . It’s not rocket science.

It seems illogical to me for anyone to complain incessantly about a Tecate flywheel yet still keep the bike . . It also seems like it’s a testament to the quality of the Tecate if that’s the only significant complaint they have about it, lol.




Maybe they didn't grenade while you were there, but the failures over the last 15-20 years are well documented.
I never heard of that until someone on another thread mentioned it a while back . . After I left Kawasaki, I went into business full time for myself doing things that were totally unrelated to bikes so I had no clue as to what was going on with a Tecate stator after that, especially since they quit making the bike in 1987 . . It isn't like i was going to call kawi 10 years after i left there just to ask them if they heard of any problems with it, lol.




The reason you'll find more honda threads is because they made about five times more of them.
This is certainly not necessarily why there is more than 365 more posts regarding Honda cdi’s than there are regarding kawi cdi’s . . I could be wrong but it sounds to me like you are assuming that just because a certain percentage of the Honda cdi’s fail, a similar amount of kawi’s should fail too which makes absolutely no sense to me . . using this line of logic, you would then have to have a similar amount of honda magnets fall off the flywheels as the kawi does, and by your own statements, this is not the case.




Stop beating a dead horse. Anyone who has owned one of these bikes recently can attest to their flywheel and stator failures.

I’m not the one that keeps bringing up broke tecate flywheel magnets, you brought them up again . . i simply mentioned what i knew about them in response to a question from phantomracer about parts failures, therefore, it seems to me, that if anyone is beating anything, it certainly isn’t me.

[christph]

I thought you guys might enjoy an ad for the 86 Tecate from the March issue of 3 Wheeling magazine. It is the only ad I've ever seen for the 2nd generation Tecate. If you look in the background you can see what appears to be Hondas burying themselves in the sand. Given the size of the dunes it appears to be Glamis. Sorry for the glare, I couldn't get rid of it.


216692216693

[barnett468]

.

Well, I don't know what you searched for, as all your links return the same message, "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms."
I posted the exact phrase I mentioned, then copied the url and pasted it . . I have no idea why the links don’t work, but obviously anyone can do a search themselves if they really feel the need.



But, the reason why you got so many threads with that search criteria is, Honda made more models than Kawasaki plus they sold more of them as well.

Yes, its obviously true that Honda made more models than kawi and sold maybe 3 or 4 bikes to every 1 that kawi sold, but the main reason that there are any threads at all about any bike on this site is because they had a problem and people are asking for help with those problems . . if the Hondas were the almighty great bikes that many here seem to claim they are, there would be FAR less threads regarding them, and in fact, if it was a perfect bike, there would be no threads about them other than just general maintenance or performance upgrade questions, but that is far from the case . . there are a zillion Honda threads because there are a zillion Hondas with problems, it’s that simple…hmmm.



What you should have searched for was "Honda 250R cdi."
Not in this case imo, because as I interpreted it, the comment I was replying to was not specific to the 250r, it was instead, a general comment about Honda as a whole.



By the way, my 250R is still running on it's original cdi/stator/flywheel, hmmmm. :wondering
Then perhaps the Honda flywheel could be adapted to the kawi and it can live happily ever after and I can get some rest. lol . . I have also mentioned this before…the kawi vibrates more than the Honda, and my guess is that the vibration is a major contributing factor to the magnets coming off . . yes, if the glue was better, they might not have fallen of irregardless.

another interesting point is that the magnets on the kx flywheels are screwed on . . I don’t remember if the atc250r ones are though, but my point is this…if kawi thought it was necessary to screw the magnets onto a kx flywheel, why in the world did they think they wouldn’t need to do the same thing to the kawi . . I just don’t have the answer to that.



Indeed it was! But if you think about it, it wasn't really that far advanced of an idea. It's just the natural progression of technology.

Well yes and no, because even though the technology was there, not all bike were water cooled at the time, and kawi could have just did what Honda did and build an air cooled bike which obviously would have been the worst idea in the world because then the bike would have been far behind the Honda in technology once the water cooled Honda came out.



Since the Tecate owes it's roots to the KX, it's only natural that it should have a water-cooled engine.
Yes.



Again though, the KXT's engine came practically right out of the KX, along with the rear Uni-Trak suspension system.
The tecate engine has a completely different cylinder and gearing and of course the 84/85 didn’t have the valve . . I would have liked to try a kx cylinder on one and don’t really know why i didn't, especially since i could have literally walked about 100 feet over to racing department and gotten an old kx250 works cylinder . . i am perhaps, not the brightest bulb in the lamp, lol



So, why not mount radiators on the frame? After all, the KX had frame mounted radiators and no cooling issues, so why should the Tecate have cooling issues?
Well, I was hoping that no one would notice that but I did give a fairly detailed answer that which was partially due to costs . . every little thing adds up and they are always price conscious . . I know that they didn’t want to add so much technology to it that it would make it overpriced by a big margin compared to the Honda because kawi is well aware that Honda is the biggest name out there, so to make a bike that costs more than the Honda, when you are 2nd or 3rd on the totem pole, was not something they thought was a good idea, even if it came with more features etc . . I mean they certainly could have made it out of carbon fiber and prefabulated amulite etc then asked $15,000.00 for it, but I don’t think they would have sold many . . just because the technology is there, it doesn’t mean that it is financially practical to use it.

in fact, there WAS a bit of discussion about the rad because the first prototype would overheat quickly so we told the engineer in charge of the tecate project that we wanted to try a bigger one and I think we even mentioned the fact that kx had two and he only put one on the tecate and he told us that the radiators were very expensive so there was obviously some concern about using a bigger one or more than one etc . . anyway, the cause of the overheating was found by our shop welder whom also ran the shop . . I had removed the screen on the front and he was looking at it and decided to blow air thru it to see what would happen . . well low and behold, when we put our hands in front of the screen and blew air thru it, there was not a lot coming thru, so the next day we tested in palm springs in 90 degree heat, and it no longer got excessively hot . . after this, they designed a special screen that would be far less restrictive so the bike wouldn’t over heat.



I like the looks of '85 Tecates too, but I really like the look of Jimmy White's "works" Tecate in that video.yes, I too think its cool and I think the kips valve kx engine is very cool too . . if you noticed, he is faster than everyone on the back straight, lol . . even though those were all production parts, I would have to put that bike in the semi works bike category at the very least

Another trivia note is that team green never used any titanium on a 3 wheeler even though I believe it was legal at the time and thought I read somewhere that honda did use some, but if they did, I really can’t blame them since they obviously needed every bit of help they could get to keep up with “The Tecate…the most powerful 3 wheeler in the world”



This debating thing is fun. Sorry Phantom, if this is cluttering up your thread, but it is getting Barnett to tell more stories with each response.

Lol, well congrats, I guess you suckered me into that one, but keep in mind, since this IS mainly a honda site, and the we kawi guys are severely outnumbered, don’t gang up on us all at once and beat us up too bad when we expouse about one or two of the things that kawi did a good job on, lol.



No need to get all upset.
Oh you should know by now that I don’t get upset, I just get amused, besides, it's all in good fun...sometimes, lol.

[barnett468]

.
ok, this is getting to be a little too much . . it seems that this particular guy even disliked the factory kawi manual so much that he made his own "improved" version . . seems like some days, one just can't do anything right, lol.

.................................................. .......https://www.tradebit.com/usr/value/pub/9002/224295454_1984-1986KawasakiKXT250Tecate3FactoryServiceRepairManua l.fw.jpg

[Red Rider]

...true, so this is an even further testament to the superior power of the tecate over the honda since jimmie white, whom weighed more than all the other top riders, was not only near the front of the pack on most of the starts, he in fact hole shot many of them, ...So it sounds like Jimmy White may have been the biggest offender of jumping the start?


... i can assure you that there is a HUGE difference between getting a good start because you have faster reflexes than the other riders, and taking off BEFORE the flag goes.

... also, these were basically races that honda set up and/or sponsored, therefore, why would they restart a race when a honda rider jumps the gate unless it was blatantly obvious to many people that this is what happened.Well isn't that special? When a Kawasaki launches off the line and gets the holeshot, it's due to "The Tecate...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The World." But when the Honda gets the holeshot, that's just impossible, they or the race promoter must have cheated. Isn't that just a bunch of prefabulated amulite?

[barnett468]

.

I thought you guys might enjoy an ad for the 86 Tecate from the March issue of 3 Wheeling magazine. It is the only ad I've ever seen for the 2nd generation Tecate. If you look in the background you can see what appears to be Hondas burying themselves in the sand. Given the size of the dunes it appears to be Glamis. Sorry for the glare, I couldn't get rid of it.

.
I found the ad here on the site . . There are a couple more Kawi ATV ads on there too including one for the 84 Tecate.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/zKaw1984n1987kawad.shtml


Below is a better photo of the ad, in which they actually called the Honda riders “bozos”, lol.

"True, he did roost his buddies a second time while they were digging holes, but with more power, improved suspension, better tires and lighter steering, how could he stop himself? Besides, he might never get another chance. These bozos sure weren’t going to go up against his Tecate again anytime soon."


http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/files/Sads/sKaw1986kxt250Tecatead.jpg

[bkm]

Mike, quit taking the whole flywheel/stator thing personally, because I've not heard one person blame you for the failures and if it wasn't taken personal there would be no need to try and downplay the failures with Honda CDI failures. They all have their inherent problems but I'd be willing to bet there are more oem 250r CDI's running than oem T3 Flywheel Stator combo's. Like Galmy has said, I think Ricky Stator's business model was centered around the T3.

Now that Phantom's cool thread about an awesome racebike has been turned to shite, how about we focus on Jimmy's Lake George Bike again.

[oile]

Did you guys notice in the picture the radiator shroud decals are different than the OEM ones.

[Red Rider]

Did you guys notice in the picture the radiator shroud decals are different than the OEM ones.I did. Red Rider approves of Kawasaki's choice for the production shroud decals.

[barnett468]

Did you guys notice in the picture the radiator shroud decals are different than the OEM ones.

Wow, that’s so obvious but I didn’t even notice it . . I was focusing more on the ad text and trying to see the hondas in the background because I’ve only seen the bikes a hundred zillion times so I didn’t hardly glance at it . . i have no idea where those decals came from, they might have been some prototype ones . . it is also missing the big white decal on top of the headlite housing . . some of the ad text seemed a bit corny and over the top to me . . I mean mot even I would have used the word bozos, lol . . it seems like a bit too much.

Kawi had their own pr department in the building I was in which would typically write the ads and take at least some of the photos . . the photo below was taken in the “studio” which was on the second floor . . it was a pre-production bike . . we had a big elevator which is what I used to take it upstairs to them.

They also used one of the huge advertising agency’s . . I was elected to do a 30 second shot doing doughnuts on the 250 water cooled Mojave for a commercial or advertising video and again for a still photo with one of the enduro bikes which was taken by joe bonello around 2 miles from my house.

http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/1986-kawasaki-tecate-KXT250B.jpg


this is another photo that was taken in kawis studio . . this was a 3 year long project . . the original prototype was built by a really nice engineer they sent over from japan whom was around 4’5” and probably only weighed 90 lbs . . he built it by gluing a bunch of foam blocks together then shaping it afterwards . . we took a later prototype to the colorado river for 3 days to compare to a raft with an outboard engine . . I was elected to ski behind it so we could evaluate it as a ski boat too . . tough job, I know . . well it took me around 30 seconds to sink the engine on the raft because the project leader didn’t read the instructions which WARNING: BOLT THE ENGINE TO THE TRANSOM, lol . . but that’s ok, we sent vello lippand, whom was the jet ski tester, to dive down with a rope and fetch it.

We had to do a fishing test with it also and video it so he vello and I were elected while the other guys got to cruise around on the raft . . well it was boring so I either went behind the camera or turned it off for a second and tied a beer…uh, I mean a beverage bottle to the end of my fishing line and tossed it in the water then pretended I had a fish and reeled it in and we both said something we thought was funny when I got it in the boat . . we had to play the entire video for a group of engineers and r and d people which were kinda amused when they saw that I had caught a “beverage” bottle.


http://www.kawasaki.ca/assets/img/frontend/corporate/jetski-museum/large/89-JET-MATE-650A.jpg

[barnett468]

.

So it sounds like Jimmy White may have been the biggest offender of jumping the start?
Unfortunately you seem to have missed the point and the joke . . sorry if my intent wasn’t clear . . also, I know for a fact that jimmie was not a flag jumper because I have not only seen several of his races, I was also in 5 of them and hole shot 2 of them and am not a flag jumper.



Well isn't that special? When a Kawasaki launches off the line and gets the holeshot, it's due to "The Tecate...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The World."
This is correct, lol.



But when the Honda gets the holeshot, that's just impossible…
oh the honda's were plenty fast also, but keep in mind that at least some of the honda guys were using works cylinders and other works parts and the kawi guys were using ported production cylinders and had no works parts at all . . also, the hondas had to use some of their horsepower to turn the 3 lb balancer their engine had so that put them at a bit of a disadvantage too, plus the kawi was a little lighter but by the time honda got done installing all their trick light weight parts made from prefabulated amulite or whatever they might have done, they were likely very similar.



they or the race promoter must have cheated.

Once again you seem to have missed the joke and the point, so my apologies for the second time if my comments weren't clear there either, however, since I have already posted mike coe’s comments on what Honda AND the race promoter did at the lorreta lynn national, imo, it’s not really a great idea to mention the word cheating . . that being said, what honda’s management did there along with one or two other unfriendly things they did at other times, should not be a reflection on their riders.

My comment about a Honda rider jumping the gate at a few races was generally ambiguous since I did not say they were trying to cheat by doing this, and in fact, it’s pretty hard to cheat by jumping the flag . . it was just coincidence that the two films I posted showed the same person jumping the flag, and in fact, he was on a Honda in the first video and a kawi 200 tecate in the second.

For clarification, in general, racers want to win, but few, if any of them want to do it by cheating, however, in some instances, some of the people that are not doing the actual driving or riding etc, not only bend the rules, they occasionally, intentionally break them . . there are many instances of this in nascar, and for the most part, the drivers are unaware of anything illegal on their car until they get caught, at which time they unfortunately get grouped in with the people that committed the violation . . this has also happened in AMA motocross competition but I won’t say who it was, however, I will say that it definitely wasn’t kawasaki.

I raced for several years and saw many different types of riders, and there are some that tend to jump the start far more than others, however, it has nothing to do with the brand of bike they ride and doesn’t mean that I or other racers consider it cheating because most of us don’t . . it's merely trying to anticipate the flag and leave exactly when it first starts to move, much like every nhra drag racer on the planet does . . there is one instance where both nhra drivers had a 0 reaction time . . well its impossible to have 0 time between your brain and your hand or foot movement etc, therefore, they obviously anticipated the lite, but anticipated it perfectly.

Everyone wants to get a good start, but some riders simply jump the flag too frequently which I assure you greatly annoys everyone . . I mean, if you have 30 riders on the line, and every single one of them jumps the flag once, that’s going to set the race back well over an hour.

So again, it was not my intent to make it sound like the honda riders were doing something wrong by doing this.

[phantomtracer]

Does anyone know or hear of where these old race bikes are?
Did jimmy keep them?
It would be great if we could get him to tell us about thes bikes, maybe mr. Bassani could give us some interesting info?

[barnett468]

.

Great video. Makes me nostalgic for the golden age of 3-wheelers. Regarding my comment about a more robust frame, my 86 is developing a crack where the foot peg connects to the frame. As far as I can tell the tube seems a little thin.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.

As far as the frame cracking goes, yeah its a bummer and I sympathize, however, it should be able to easily be properly repaired with a small gusset . . if you need some ideas you can post a photo or send it to my by private message and I will be happy to look at it for you . . by coincidence, I was the official r and d vehicle crack repair specialist, lol.

We would check all the bikes for cracks during testing and if we found one, we would monitor its rate of growth until we felt it was too dangerous to ride anymore at which time they would give it to me to fix . . now this is actually kind of tricky because it needed to be the smallest, simplest, lightest repair it could be . . the reason for this is because it is simple to “over repair” something with big brackets and gussets etc, but that increases weight, which is a major concern on the dirt bikes, especially the motocross ones.

Also, when you make one place stronger, it increases the load in another which can then cause that area to crack if its strength is marginal so you can in fact chase a crack around sometimes which is a pita . . after the test was completed, we would send the repair design to japan and notes as to whether it held up or not and they would decide if they wanted to use the same thing or do something else.

In addition to costs, another one of the design criteria is to make most bikes or atv’s as lite as possible . . this is for several reasons, one of which is because some potential buyers also consider the weight of the vehicles in their decision making process regarding which bike to buy, however, this is mainly on the high perf bikes like the enduros and mx bikes and atv’s like the tecate 3 and tecate 4 wheelers etc sand when you’re second or third on the totem pole like kawi was in general, you need all the help you can get to make your product more enticing than your competitors.

Basically, I really have no idea if the engineers had a projected life span of the frame . . by that I mean that I don’t know if they calculated/estimated that it would last 2,000 hours under average or severe conditions or 5,000 or 10,000 etc, plus these types of things are more easily determined with the advancements in computers . . keep in mind, there was no computer involved in the designing of the first tecate…none, zero, zip . . it was all done by hand on paper around 100 feet from my desk.

Its true that they could have built it stronger by using more gussets or thicker tubing etc and in your case as well as possibly several other cases, it would have been a better thing to do and the fact is that if they had known or expected there to be a problem in a particular area years later like the tubing the foot pegs attach to, it really wouldn’t have cost that much more to design a gusset and install it there or to simply make that part of the tubing thicker and neither of these countermeasures would have added much weight . . hopefully you are getting beginning to understand why mfg;s do what they do and that it really is incredibly hard to design something like these bikes in the first place and difficult to anticipate when the frame on a high perf one might break . . of course if 10 or 20 lbs gets added to a big red, no one will care, but if the same amount got added to a kx or cr or even a tecate or 250r, then most potential buyers would care to at least some degree.

I hope some of this made sense.

PS - either the steering head or the tripple tree broke on jeff wards works bike on a big jump and the same thing happened to roger decoster at a race at carlsbad.

Heres the vehicle’s dry weights . . the honda had a counter balancer that accounted for some of the weight

84 kxt. . . . 286 lbs
84 250r . . 293 lbs
86 kxt . . . 280 lbs
86 250r . . 291 lbs

[barnett468]

Does anyone know or hear of where these old race bikes are?
Did jimmy keep them?
It would be great if we could get him to tell us about thes bikes, maybe mr. Bassani could give us some interesting info?

as far as bassani goes, you can simply send him an email or try to call.

http://www.bassani.com/contact/

we sold a lot of his exhaust and also kerkers when I worked at norm reeves Honda Kawasaki in Anaheim around 1975 thru 1976 . . he would give us systems to test fit and I or the shop would install them . . he was around 7 miles from out shop . . I think daryl has an all original 1966 427 sc cobra that he bought way back in the late 70’s.

Jeff Jennings rode motocross for us at the time and another guy rode desert for us on a highly modified 1975 or 76 xl350 bored and stroked to a tire smokin 500 ci that gary fishburn, whom temporarily dated the owner donna reeves of norm reeves Honda cars fame, built . . she kinda had a wild Christmas party and birthday party and a very cute and fun daughter, lol.

dean modesset of husqvarna exhaust pipe fame was a little bit farther and had a cute sister named dottie . . he would occasionally test his bikes next to the freeway, lol.

Richie Collins’s dad had a shop around 3 miles away.

Galaxy wholesale was 1 mile away.

Dave miller had his shop named miller mano around 5 miles and he sponsored me a little on my 125 . . he also sponsored tim tolar and mike raines.

Harry klemm was just a little past modesset’s place.

Anyway, sorry about the reminiscing.


My bike was a pre production so it couldn’t be sold . . kawi most likely crushed it like we did with all other pre production bikes.

Jimmie still has his 86 and may have his earlier one . . Donnie doesn’t have any of them

Here’s a brief interview from both of them . . it might take a minute for the page to load.

http://airfoolers.com/?page_id=216

http://airfoolers.com/?page_id=196

[christph]

Thanks for the insight. The frame is 30 years old so I figure I can't complain. Since you are a crack repair specialist I'll go ahead and ask. I'm going to strip the frame down and take it to a welding shop. I have some welding experience but don't have a machine at the moment. It is a hairline crack right above the original weld (sorry no picture at the moment). It is located right where the cross member supporting the foot pegs (the same tube with the lower shock mount tabs) meets the main frame tube (on the backside where it turns up toward the shock pivot). Would you recommend getting it TIG or MIG welded? Would you recommend first drilling small holes at either end of the crack to stop its propagation and then weld it? Any advice is appreciated.

[barnett468]

Thanks for the insight. The frame is 30 years old so I figure I can't complain. Since you are a crack repair specialist I'll go ahead and ask. I'm going to strip the frame down and take it to a welding shop. I have some welding experience but don't have a machine at the moment. It is a hairline crack right above the original weld (sorry no picture at the moment). It is located right where the cross member supporting the foot pegs (the same tube with the lower shock mount tabs) meets the main frame tube (on the backside where it turns up toward the shock pivot). Would you recommend getting it TIG or MIG welded? Would you recommend first drilling small holes at either end of the crack to stop its propagation and then weld it? Any advice is appreciated.


I would really need to see it to give you the best advice because you don’t want to do it wrong and you don’t want it to happen again . . that area is a little tricky . . we had a few frames crack there, and under, or next to, the steering head on the mx bikes which I had to fix.

I can pretty much tell you without even seeing it, that just welding it will only be a temporary fix and it could have a catastrophic failure before you know it.

I can assure, if the peg gives way on a big jump, you will likely spend a few days in the hospital and will likely need knee surgery at the least even if you don’t break a leg because it will in fact run over your leg as it twists it into a pretzel and it will pull you off the bike.

As far as tig vs mig goes, I prefer tig, but either will work if done properly . . you can control the weld speed and depth far better with a tig so I think it’s the safer option

i have seen water cooled 250r frames break also but in my experience, it's pretty rare.
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