Front tire recommendations for 86 kxt [Archive]

barnett468

10-12-2015, 08:02 PM

.

It is the shame they went with 23 inch, i found a 21 inch front tire to be the perfect size while the 23 had to much sidewall flex and made the front wanna push in tight turns.

oh for sure, i was only speaking of close course tracks with smaller size flat track style tires. The 21 would be a liability in the desert by the raising the risk of damaging your front wheel.

Here's a brief history about the 86 Tecate and how the 23” front tire got on there for anyone that has interest in how Kawasaki did their development on this particular bike.

First of all, the 86 Tecate is an unfinished bike and is NOT as good as it could have been because we simply ran out of time . . Japan did the orig design and mfg of it which was pretty much a total piece of crap, however, the side mount radiators definitely looked cool . . One of the problems it has is a slight/moderate high speed steering head shake, however, I never heard any complaints about even from the magazines that tested it, therefore, I'm guessing people either don't consider it to be that bad or they don't ride it fast enough to notice, however, it is definitely there and I definitely didn't like the fact that it was there, unfortunately, due to the way they screwed the initial prototype up, there was simply not enough time to fix it, and since it wasn't bad enough that it would endanger anyone, it was decided that it was “Acceptable for production”, which does not always mean that we thought something was as good as it could be . . It but basically means that a vehicle was not so horrible that it simply shouldn't be made . . Obviously every mfg, wants to make something as good as it can be within the constraints they have but due to these constraints, it is just not possible so they all do the best they can . . For example, it would have cost Kawi a bazilion dollars in lost sales revenue if they postponed introducing the bike for another year.

The first 86 prototype had the 85 rim and tire on it, and the second I saw it, I said it had to go just based on appearances alone, because it simply looked retarded [yes this is an official engineering term] on that bike.

As John and onformula implied, one size does not work perfectly for all applications . . I was a motocross rider/racer [not an ATV rider], so I liked rough tracks and wanted the bike to perform well on what most ATV riders would consider extremely rough like Saddleback or Carlsbad Motorcycle MX tracks that had NOT been graded perfectly smooth for weeks, and John Neery knows how rough that is . . One of the reasons I did this is because if a bike performs well on extremely rough terrain, it will work pretty good on smooth tracks, however, a bike that is developed for smooth tracks or less harsh terrain, will work like crap on a rough track, therefore making it work on a rough track was the best of both worlds . . Also, since the stock Honda doesn't work very well on extremely rough terrain at high speed, I knew our bike would have a distinct advantage if both bikes were in box stock form, plus not everyone only rides a 3 wheeler on a glass smooth TT track.

The test track Kawi owned was filled with sharp edged potholes and was bone dry and rock hard, and although I didn't have a taller front tire to test at the time, I knew from experience that a taller one would provide a less jarring ride . . One reason for this is because the taller it is, the less steep of an angle it hits the edges of bumps at . . Also, the taller the sidewall, the less harsh the ride will be . . It works the same way with car tires, which is why a car with 245 x 45 series rubber band tires will jar the teeth out of ones head when they hit a pot hole . . An easier way to imagine this is to consider a 23” tall tire rolling over a 24” long x 12” deep hole vs a huge 6' diameter tire rolling over the same hole . . The 23” tall tire will fall 12” into the hole which will cause a horrendous jarring to the rider, whereas the huge 6' tall tire may only drop around 2” into the hole, in which case it would barely be noticed.

I only had 2 weeks in Japan to re-engineer everything that was bad on that bike and there was a lot, and since I only had limited time, and the changes would be final, I had to start with the worst parts first, and one of the very worst was the wimpy ass forks they put on the thing, so I told them exactly what I wanted which had to be a best guess and they made the entire front fork assy including the tripple clamps in maybe 3 or 4 days . . I have never seen anything like it, and keep in mind that they had to do all the engineering drawings BEFORE they could even start the mfg process, then they had to make some molds and tooling etc . . They must have had at least 10 people working around the clock to pull that off . . I was in total awe, and no, they did not like me very much after that, especially because that was just the beginning of the changes I made. :lol:

Anyway, the last big change I wanted to make was the font tire and rim size, and due to time constraints, this too would be unchangeable after the decision was made, so again this was a best guess . . I knew I wanted a larger tire diameter that was also narrower, so I did some thinking, and some math, and considered the aspect ratio, and then decided on the one that is on there now . . I did see the Honda tire on an 85 model before and liked the appearance of the diameter but disliked how narrow it looked and still do but the Honda tire didn't have any influence on my decision . . If it did, I likely would have made the Kawi tire just as narrow as the anorexic looking Honda one . . Oh, I also had them narrow the front forks to my spec so there wouldn't be 3" of space between the fork tube and the tire on both sides because they were made to accommodate the extra width of the 84/85 tire, so yes, they had to remake the tripple clamps AGAIN, so by now they were simply ready to just bury me somewhere out in a rice patty or something. :lol:

Anyway, escaping a most certain long and painful demise at the hands of highly skilled Ninja's, I went back to the US, and in the meantime, they made the front tire and tripple clamp change and had one of their test riders whom I helped train when he was in the US, test it . . Fortunately he said it was better than the 85 tire, so that is the one that came on it when they shipped the bike to the US for the remainder of the testing.

I don't remember a lot about how the front tire performed basically because there were no major problems with it for the intended target market which was not flat track racing, besides, I knew that if someone was going to flat track the thing, they could easily change it if they wanted . . I did actually use the stock front 84 tire on my 84 race bike for every race, but even though it had a lower aspect ratio than the 86 tire, it would still push a bit in some of the turns and definitely was not as good as the Hoosiers that Jimmy was using . . I could have gotten the same front tire that Jimmy used, and he actually gave me the rear tires and rims that I used for every single race, however, I simply didn't care that much and it really wasn't horrible.

Below is how the tire math works out . . The aspect ratio of the ATV tires is calculated the same way it is on metric tires . . The second set of numbers on a metric tire are the aspect ratio . . For example, a 235 x 60-15 tire has an aspect ratio of 60 . . A 195 x 75-15 tire has an aspect ratio of 75, which just happens to be exactly the same aspect ratio that the 85/86 Honda tire has . . In the automotive world where tires are designed to be used, and perform well, on SMOOTH roads, the lower the aspect ratio number is, the higher the performance of the tire is considered to be.

Tires with aspect ratio numbers in the 50's would be found on high perf cars like Porsche's and Ferrari's etc.

Tires with aspect ratios in the 60's like the TECATE has, would be similar to those found on mid performance automotive tires like the extremely popular 235 x 60 series B.F. Goodrich TA Radial's that are on a large percentage of vintage muscle cars.

Lastly, tires with aspect ratios of 75 or greater are used on big luxury cars to provide a nice, comfy, ride, so ones cinnamon cafe latte doesn't spill when they hit a 1/4” deep hole in the road . . In fact, the highest aspect ratio of any automotive tire ever made, was 78 as in a 195 x 78 tire, which just so happens to be the exact same aspect ratio of the tires that GM put on their 6,357 lb, 1959 Cadillac Biarritz AND the ones that Honda put on the 85/86 ATC25R, however, since the the Honda does not have a cup holder where one could put a cinnamon cafe latte even if they wanted to, I don't know just why they would put a tire with such a high aspect ratio on it since I though it was supposed to be a "high" performance bike, and although I don't know for certain why Honda did this, one guess would be that is was an attempt to compensate for what they may have considered to be poor front suspension performance....just sayin. :)

FRONT TIRE SPECS WITHOUT PLY RATINGS

84/85 Tecate … 22 tall x 11 wide - 10 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 54.54.

86/87 Tecate … 23 tall x . 9 wide - 11 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 66.66 . . increase in aspect ratio from 84/85 Tecate = 22.22%

85/87 Honda … 23.5 tall x . 8 wide - 11 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 78.12 . . increase in aspect ratio from 86/87 Tecate = 17.19%

.................................................. ....... THE 6,357 LB 1969 CADILLAC BIARRITZ

.....................http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--xuiP_CfO--/17ohh20g56vq9jpg.jpg

.................................................. ... THE 6,357 LB 1986 HONDA ATC250R BIARRITZ

THE LEADER IN DESIGNING THE HIGHEST ASPECT RATIO TIRES OF ANY "HIGH PERFORMANCE" ATC EVER MADE....BUT THE RIDE IS COMFY! :)

..........http://www.offroadvintage.com/USERIMAGES/ATC250R_1985_US_3.jpg

Red Rider

10-13-2015, 01:34 AM

84/85 Tecate … 22 tall x 11 wide - 10 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 54.54.

86/87 Tecate … 23 tall x . 9 wide - 11 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 66.66 . . increase in aspect ratio from 84/85 Tecate = 22.22%

85/87 Honda … 23.5 tall x . 8 wide - 11 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 78.12 . . increase in aspect ratio from 86/87 Tecate = 17.19%
The data on MiG is inaccurate. We happened to see a MiG 28 do a 4g negative dive...

Just like Charlie in Top Gun, your data on the 85-86 250R is inaccurate. It's OE front tire measures 23 x 8 - 11, giving it a sidewall height of 6", and an aspect ratio of 75.00%. And remember, Charlie is a civilian, so you do not salute her.

And thanks for the 250R ad, it's one of the best things you ever posted here! :beer Let's see Honda's 1985 ATC 250R again! The Leader By Design

http://www.offroadvintage.com/USERIMAGES/ATC250R_1985_US_3.jpg

Red Rider

10-13-2015, 01:54 AM

Barnett, how do you think that Cheetah (85-86 250R OE repro) tire would work wrapped around an 86-87 Tecate's 11 x 9 rim? Also, how about the visual asthetics of said setup?

barnett468

10-13-2015, 01:39 PM

Just like Charlie in Top Gun, your data on the 85-86 250R is inaccurate. It's OE front tire measures 23 x 8 - 11, giving it a sidewall height of 6", and an aspect ratio of 75.00%.

You are correct, so thank you for reading my post and finding one error and bringing it to my attention . . Since one tank pretty much looks the same as another, I initially, merely incorrectly remembered the tire as being the same as the one they used on the ATC350X, and didn't realize the error until I reviewed tire sizes again this morning, and I would be more than happy to amend my post to reflect the correct size so there is a continuity in accuracy, however, my ability to do so is impeded by the fact that...I HAVE NO EDIT BUTTON. :lol:

Since the aspect ratio of the ATC250R is in fact 75 as you so aptly calculated, that would in fact then remove it from the 6,357 lb “Biarritz” class and place it in the next lightest class which would be that of the 4,962.5 lb Chevy Impala and Pontiac Bonneville, which while still providing a very soft and comfy ride, does provide a modicum of performance increase over their behemoth brethren the Biarritz.

................................................TH E LUXURIOUS AND NIMBLE 4,962.5 LB PONTIAC BONNEVILLE

...................................http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2009-07-16-fitzandvan1967pontiacbonneville.jpeg

barnett468

10-13-2015, 01:44 PM

POST CORRECTION

"THE LUXURIOUS AND NIMBLE 4,962.5 LB PONTIAC BONNEVILLE"

should read

"THE LUXURIOUS AND SEMI NIMBLE 4,962.5 LB PONTIAC BONNEVILLE"

barnett468

10-13-2015, 02:08 PM

Barnett, how do you think that Cheetah (85-86 250R OE repro) tire would work wrapped around an 86-87 Tecate's 11 x 9 rim? Also, how about the visual asthetics of said setup?

I think it should have raised white letters which can be purchased at any arts and crafts store like MICHAELS.

....or perhaps they could match the color of the bike or wheels.

.................................................. ............https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSIfST5iM6dsA9UVqSwjKwghsGafYNoy fsGme2_HhdpvSbN0uqt

.................................................. .........http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mSPEFQKsU_FLbH3XmmoIrhg.jpg

barnett468

10-13-2015, 04:04 PM

Barnett, how do you think that Cheetah (85-86 250R OE repro) tire would work wrapped around an 86-87 Tecate's 11 x 9 rim? Also, how about the visual asthetics of said setup?

I like the Cheetah tires and even have some on my Blazer....but they tend to make a howling noise when I'm driving.

.................................................h ttps://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSjp-GBlBkZn36y8yRsznTSvAypa8wMYtgemqqHCzTweZs8_D5E2Q

barnett468

10-13-2015, 05:52 PM

And thanks for the 250R ad, it's one of the best things you ever posted here! :beer

You're very welcome . . I can understand how the Honda riders yearn for photos of their beloved bike since there weren't that many of them in the Winners Circle after the advent of "The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe".

Let's see Honda's 1985 ATC 250R again! The Leader By Design

Your wish is my command my fellow ATV enthusiast . . Here's one BEHIND myself and another TECATE rider...but the Honda's "DESIGN" is certainly "looking" stylish.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=217959&d=1436042986

barnett468

10-13-2015, 05:55 PM

.
....along with it's massive 75 aspect ratio front tire. ;)

El Camexican

10-13-2015, 06:59 PM

Your wish is my command my fellow ATV enthusiast . . Here's one BEHIND myself and another TECATE rider...but the Honda's "DESIGN" is certainly "looking" stylish.

Looks to me like #178 is fixin to lap a couple of green trikes:lol:

barnett468

10-13-2015, 07:10 PM

Let's see Honda's 1985 ATC 250R again! The Leader By Design

Here's 3 more Honda's [which were supported by the biggest budget of all the mfg's], and it looks to me as though they are being pushed to their limits by Honda factory riders Mart Hart #7, Dean Sundal #34, and Mike Coe #23 in a valiant, albeit futile attempt, to keep up with...." The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In the Universe.", but the design of the Honda is STILL looking stylish. :)

Donnie Luce #53, whom is also on a TECATE, is on the left side of the photo next to Mike Coe #23...oh, and #29 be be me on a TECATE behind Marty Hart because mine had so much power it actually wore all the tread off the tires before I hit second gear. :lol:

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=217957&d=1436042945

fieldy

10-13-2015, 07:20 PM

178 and 26 are lappers, you can see # 71 having to go to half throttle and it's easy to see he will be hammering down and easily passing them in just a split second.

Red Rider

10-13-2015, 07:24 PM

... Here's one BEHIND myself and another TECATE rider...but the Honda's "DESIGN" is certainly "looking" stylish.http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=217959&d=1436042986Congratulations, "The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe", is ahead of a 200X, which is ahead of another "TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe".

barnett468

10-13-2015, 07:34 PM

Looks to me like #178 is fixin to lap a couple of green trikes:lol:

Actually it's #71 whom on the TECATE whom is about to be doin the lappin.

The only thing that Honda rider will be lappin is some water from his doggie's bowl after the race cuz he's gonna be way to tired to sit up to drink it after senselessly trying in vain to keep up with..."The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler in The Universe.".

Wow Bob...you look pretty beat . . Why don't ya just lay on down here and have some cool tasty water while ya tell me all about it.

..............................................http s://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0a/7b/c7/0a7bc747a6d0ea0c2f0563e0c98649ca.jpg

barnett468

10-13-2015, 07:54 PM

Congratulations, "The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe", is ahead of a 200X,
Yes but he had nitrous.

which is ahead of another "TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe".

Yes but his bike was so fast he was actually about to lap all of us. :lol:

oh....and I do believe that is John Neery on his works type Franks bike that is also behind us. ;)

barnett468

10-13-2015, 08:13 PM

.
.

Phantomtracer, this is also listed as a Kenda Max K284 series tire but it looks completely different than the first Kendas that were posted for some reason . . This one also says it's a 2 ply which will be softer and will deflect more in the turns than a 4 ply.

This one comes in 23x8-11 and 23.5x8-11, however, the first Kenda tire posted may come m both those sizes as well.

Although the 23.5 tire is .5 taller than the orig 23 tire, it will be slightly less than 23.5 [maybe 1/4" shorter] when installed due to the 1" wider rim.

http://www.compacc.com/p/kenda-k284-front-max-tires?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paid_search&utm_campaign=paid_search_google_pla&scid=scplp2739630&gclid=COKc27LTwMgCFURlfgoduTEB9g

http://www.compacc.com/images/product/300/45232_1.jpg

fieldy

10-13-2015, 08:32 PM

Notice the guy starting his Tecate in post 22. The reason this is done is to allow the competition a fair chance, therefore, not causing too much embarassment to the other nice fellas "racing the Honda's". If this was not implemented there would only be green three wheelers. Some other colors are nice to see out there once in a while just trying their little hearts out.

christph

10-13-2015, 08:40 PM

Thanks for the backstory on the Tecate front tire barnett468. I love reading about that stuff. I wish I was an engineer back then giving input on their designs. On the whole Tecate vs. 250R fight that is developing here, I own both so I don't have a dog in the fight. I have three Tecates (an 84, 86, and 87) and two 250Rs (an 82 and 86). I love them both for their strengths and weaknesses. Regarding the front tire on the Tecate, I do wish it was an inch narrower because I think it would have made for a little more precise steering. I think about it in terms of the profile the contact patch makes with the ground. The reason the earlier balloon front tires don't steer as well (I'm thinking of my 84 Tecate and 82 250R) is because they essentially have a round contact patch and square lugs. A narrow front tire has an oval profile which acts more like a rudder and focuses more weight on a smaller area. Longer, rectangular lugs can help make a balloon tire more directional, but the same is true of a narrow tire.

phantomtracer

10-13-2015, 08:54 PM

Cheetah Tires HP577cf 23x8.00-11, coming available this Nov.,$89 each HP577cf 23x8x11
222647222648

I like that!!!!!

barnett468

10-13-2015, 09:10 PM

On the whole Tecate vs. 250R fight that is developing here,

oh there's no fight going on between which model is best, it's just all in good fun, besides everybody knows the tecate is more powerful than the honda, which is why it can beat it stock for stock 9 times out of 10 in a drag race even though it only has a 5 sped trans compared to the 6 speed tranny the honda needed to get it up to speed, and although the honda may be "designed" to be better looking bike, i still the look of the TECATE crossing the finish line first instead. :lol:

Red Rider

10-13-2015, 09:27 PM

... I did see the Honda tire on an 85 model before and liked the appearance of the diameter but disliked how narrow it looked and still do but the Honda tire didn't have any influence on my decision . . If it did, I likely would have made the Kawi tire just as narrow as the anorexic looking Honda one ...The narrower 86-87 Tecate front tire did look better than the 84-85, but seemed a bit too fat still. Maybe I'm just used to how skinny the front tires on Honda's sport/race trikes looked. It looked sportier & was functional as well, as it was designed that way for a reason.

Notice the guy starting his Tecate in post 22. The reason this is done is to allow the competition a fair chance, therefore, not causing too much embarassment to the other nice fellas "racing the Honda's". If this was not implemented there would only be green three wheelers. Some other colors are nice to see out there once in a while just trying their little hearts out.On a similar note, the main driving force behind Kawasaki making the Tecate available in "red", as well as in "lime green", was so the race track would be strewn with broken down & DNF'd "red" trikes, instead of just "green" ones. :lol:

On the whole Tecate vs. 250R fight that is developing here, ...This isn't a fight, just some good-natured ribbing going on.

barnett468

10-13-2015, 10:52 PM

On a similar note, the main driving force behind Kawasaki making the Tecate available in "red", as well as in "lime green", was so the race track would be strewn with broken down & DNF'd "red" trikes, instead of just "green" ones. :lol:

Actually the red color was intended to fool the Honda riders into believing they were being lapped by their own kind, because we knew they were so jealous of the power and nimble handling of the TECATE that they would stop at nothing [other than a donut truck] to prevent one from passing them, and the green color was to divert their attention [cuz a Honda riders attention span seems pretty short which is why they keep forgetting that a Kawi just won the last race] so they would try and block the green instead thus allowing red one could safely pass.

John_Neary

10-13-2015, 11:45 PM

i can help settle this as i was the test rider for the 3&4 Wheel Action 250 class shootout in 1986 and after riding all the bikes i can say the best bike between the Tecate and ATC250R was....

That is me in blue on the Kawi

222750

The Tri-Z 250 :lol:

christph

10-13-2015, 11:46 PM

El Camexican

10-14-2015, 12:05 AM

I just took out my red 84 Tecate today after installing a new Sprock cool head. The best way to describe the acceleration is violent. I got a new KX barrel too and can't wait to put it on--gotta love ebay. Back in the day Dirt Wheels did a couple articles on Jimmy White's Tecate and I'm in the process of building it. I'm still looking for a Bassani pipe if anyone has one they would like to sell.

Now you went and kicked the hornets nest! Had you been paying attention you would have known that the Tecate was PERFECT from the beginning. To modify anything on a Tecate is blasphemous and will surely draw the wrath of it's thin skinned creator!:lol:

Red Rider

10-14-2015, 12:30 AM

Back in the day Dirt Wheels did a couple articles on Jimmy White's Tecate and I'm in the process of building it.Speaking of Dirt Wheels & shootouts, here's a couple of my favorite quotes from the 250cc 2-stroke tests & shootouts:

1985 Tecate - The radiator-mounted flashlight...
1986 Tecate - The Tecate vibrates like a 25 cent bed in a cheap motel. :lol:
1986 Tri-Z - The Tri-Z's sound is strangled. A quick peak out back reveals a huge, trashcan-sized silencer.

Hmmm strange, I can't remember the magazines saying anything bad about the 1985-86 ATC 250R, the undisputed king of shootouts. :D

barnett468

10-14-2015, 01:19 AM

Now you went and kicked the hornets nest! Had you been paying attention you would have known that the Tecate was PERFECT from the beginning. To modify anything on a Tecate is blasphemous and will surely draw the wrath of it's thin skinned creator!:lol:

Oh contraire my deep Southern California amigo . . You will notice that he said it was VIOLENT even with the TECATE cylinder on it, and in fact, the prototype had SO MUCH POWER that we actually had to DETUNE it so that riders with a skill level less than that which only the highest caliber professional rider possessed could have even the remotest chance of not being blown off it like a leaf gets blown from a tree in a tornado when they opened the throttle more than half way.

His desire to make it more ungodly fast than it already is clearly shows that he not only possess a level of courage that can only be likened to that which only the fabled Greek Gods of yore possessed, but that he too may in fact be a God.

All hail the almighty Christph, huzzah!

. http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/l/laughing/graphics-laughing-867787.gif

barnett468

10-14-2015, 01:54 AM

i can help settle this as i was the test rider for the 3&4 Wheel Action 250 class shootout in 1986... That is me in blue on the Kawi

222750

I see it's so fast that you are already lapping them. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

barnett468

10-14-2015, 07:42 PM

Speaking of Dirt Wheels & shootouts, here's a couple of my favorite quotes from the 250cc 2-stroke tests & shootouts:

1985 Tecate - The radiator-mounted flashlight...

....was mounted high so it's blazing sun like beam could light up even the darkest road for MILES ahead to look like it was high noon, plus it was made to be REMOVABLE because....REAL RACE BIKES DON'T HAVE LIGHTS.

1986 Tecate - The Tecate vibrates like a 25 cent bed in a cheap motel. :lol:

Another innovative and advanced design born from the never ending ingenuity of the forward thinkers at KAWASAKI, which massages the rider while they ride . . This soothing massage provided by this unique feature, which is supplied totally free of charge with each and every TECATE, greatly reduces rider fatigue and allows the TECATE pilot to both ride hard longer and feel refreshed and invigorated after beating the crap out of the Honda riders, whom are unfortunately riding bikes that Honda actually went to great lengths to eliminate this beneficial feature on . . Plus, this free feature saves the TECATE rider many dollars in small change by not needing a massage after the race or long hard ride in the Dunes, whereas the poor Honda riders will be desperately begging on the street corners for quarters.

Hmmm strange, I can't remember the magazines saying anything bad about the 1985-86 ATC 250R, the undisputed king of shootouts. :D

Hmmm strange, I can't remember when it was a GOOD thing to own a "RECREATIONAL BIKE" bike that is "GOOD FOR THE AVERAGE RECREATIONAL TRAIL RIDER" when one is going RACING . . They don't even say it would be good for the average rider in the Dunes. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

Also not saying anything bad is not quite the same as saying something good either.

And here are some of my favorite quotes.

"Though there's nothing significantly wrong with the Tecate (as you will soon find out), we felt the other two bikes were better choices for the average recreational/trail rider." http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

"The undisputed king of horsepower; the Kawasaki Tecate... We noticed both a significant boost in the midrange over last year's model and in Kawie's always-explosive top end." http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/bow.gif

"If the Kawasaki got a good launch in the drags; it was 'bye-bye" to the Honda and Yamaha..." http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/bolt.gif

"As for the Honda... ...we agreed it wasn't the fastest..." http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

"Basically, riders of all sizes felt comfortable on the Tecate." http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

"Handling on the Tecate was described as "racer tight." http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

"The Tecate, true to its pure race form, turned precisely and, using proper throttle and brake techniques, could be put into a picture-perfect slide. ...exactly the type of handling a skilled racer might want." http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif
"Many of the testers noticed the light feel of the Tecate in the air and considered it a good flier." http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/plane/smileys-plane-873783.gif

"And the winner of the Race Bike Award goes to. . the Kawasaki Tecate! This tight, light, fast bike will win races, and it doesn't require a whole lot of effort to get the Kawasaki race-ready. Most everyone could sense the precise, tight handling characteristics of this race-bred machine, and they loved it!" http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/bow.gifhttp://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/bow.gifhttp://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/bow.gif

SUMMARY

Ok, so the TECATE is NOT a recreational bike and it is NOT for a wimpy, slow, recreational rider, and it BLOWS the doors off of every other bike, and it handles like a Ferrari . . I think I can live with that. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

"Our test crew loved the fact that they could use all of the Honda's suspension...when it bottomed out so hard off a 3 foot high jump they all ended up 1 inch shorter than they started."

.................................................. .....http://www.quadpit.com/images/mags/stories/1986/shootout/40a.jpg

Red Rider

10-14-2015, 10:54 PM

...plus it was made to be REMOVABLE because....REAL RACE BIKES DON'T HAVE LIGHTS.Which is exaclty why the 250R has a "quick-removable" headlight, and yes, it can be removed much quicker than any year of the Tecate, and without any tools.

...Plus, this free feature saves the TECATE rider many dollars in small change by not needing a massage after the race or long hard ride in the Dunes,...Is there a "happy ending" included?

Hmmm strange, I can't remember when it was a GOOD thing to own a "RECREATIONAL BIKE" bike that is "GOOD FOR THE AVERAGE RECREATIONAL TRAIL RIDER" when one is going RACING...Now I understand why we don't see eye to eye. I'm not a racer, so I wan't my bike to do everything well, rather than just one thing.

And here are some of my favorite quotes.

"The undisputed king of horsepower; the Kawasaki Tecate..."How did I know this would be one of your favorite quotes? Oh Barnett, you're so predictable.

"As for the Honda... ...we agreed it wasn't the fastest..."Let's see the rest of that quote that you so conveniently cut short. "As for the Honda, though we agreed it wasn't the fastest, many felt that the motor was the best overall. Described as being hard-hitting in all segments of the power-band, the Honda's motor was controllable and powerful."

"The Tecate, true to its pure race form, turned precisely and, using proper throttle and brake techniques, could be put into a picture-perfect slide. ...exactly the type of handling a skilled racer might want."Once again, with some creative editing, you make the Tecate sound like a superior handling machine, but when you read the whole quote, not so much. Now let's read the whole quote, "The Kawasaki liked to either slide or go straight, nothing in between, exactly the type of handling a skilled racer might want."

"Many of the testers noticed the light feel of the Tecate in the air and considered it a good flier."What else did the test riders have to say about the Tecate's suspension? Let's read on & see, "Many of the testers noticed the light feel of the Tecate in the air and considered it a good flier. Several riders mentioned that they were able to bottom the suspension, though. The Honda flew the skies as well as the other two, but no one could bottom her out. A big plus for the 250R."

"Our test crew loved the fact that they could use all of the Honda's suspension...when it bottomed out so hard off a 3 foot high jump they all ended up 1 inch shorter than they started."You've definitely got a future in politics with your creative editing techniques. Let's read the actual verdict of the testers. "And now for the king of suspension, the '86 Honda 250R. There were absolutely no snivels from anyone on either the front or the rear boingers. We noticed nearly all the suspension travel getting used though the whoops and off jumps, and yet there was no hint of bottoming." But you said that Honda used a 75% aspect ratio front tire to mask it's poor front suspension? Seems like it works in harmony to me, almost like it was designed that way.

barnett468

10-14-2015, 11:29 PM

Which is exaclty why the 250R has a "quick-removable" headlight, and yes, it can be removed much quicker than any year of the Tecate, and without any tools.

FACT - This is incorrect, the lite on the 84/85 Tecate can EASILY be removed without even touching it...all one has to do is hit the gas and loop it out. :lol:

El Camexican

10-15-2015, 12:11 AM

FACT - This is incorrect, the lite on the 84/85 Tecate can EASILY be removed without even touching it...all one has to do is hit the gas and loop it out. :lol:

Now that's a fact if ever there was:lol:

barnett468

10-15-2015, 06:20 PM

.

Let's read the actual verdict of the testers. "And now for the king of suspension, the '86 Honda 250R.

The winner of the Rec Bike Award goes to. . the Honda 250R!

This is correct, they are in fact the king of RECREATIONAL SUSPENSION for the AVERAGE RECREATIONAL TRAIL RIDER, and I have in fact stated this on several different occasions since I joined the site. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

There were absolutely no snivels from anyone on either the front or the rear boingers.

....while the bike was not moving. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

Red Rider

10-15-2015, 06:30 PM

I like that!!!!!Phantom, I think that Cheetah tire would look right at home on your Tecate. It's very slim pickens when it comes to this particular tire size. Swapping out the front wheel for a 10" opens up a whole bunch of options, but as I understand it, you're looking to stay OE as much as possible with your build. Out of the 3 given tire suggestions, my ranking would be:
1. Cheetah HP577cf
2. Kenda Front Max
3. Switch to 10" wheel & go with some other appropriate tire.

There's no way I'd put that Cheng Shin on my 250R or an 86/87 Tecate. It just doesn't look right.

barnett468

10-15-2015, 07:52 PM

.
Another thing that might be a consideration since it doesn't sound to me like you are going to race it is the tread pattern, especially since your bike is bone stock and a Concours show bike.

Phantomtracer, the Kenda that was first posted, does not quite match the aggressive look of the rear tire pattern, so if it was me, I would probably choose the Cheetah over the Kenda even if the Cheetah steered like crap cuz there is just no way that I would ever ride that bike hard enough to scratch it.

Below is a decent photo of the stock front tire . . It was posted in a major magazine in conjunction with a test evaluation they performed on it in which it received rave reviews . . You can compare the tread and lug pattern to the other tires posted on your thread . . It's hard to see, but the lugs have a slight Z pattern to them . They are not perfectly straight like the lugs on the first Kenda that was posted.

...and no that is not trick photography, that is in fact one solid 7 foot high wall of sand, and yes, those rear tires definitely hook up good enough in even deep sand to lift the front end just about as high as one would dare.

One can also see how the rear antenna is nearly bent to the point of braking due to the massive G forces developed by the rocket like acceleration of...."The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!". http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Below is the exact, complete, unedited text from the photo which I posted for informational purposes for the Honda guys with their...."recreational"....bikes. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

"The 1986 Green Machine is a turning fool. The lower profile rear meats and larger 11" front wheel contribute to the ease with which this 3 wheeler changes direction. Lean in, grab a handful of throttle, and the Tecate is suddenly sideways and roosting! Go ahead and bark at the moon."

...............................http://www.quadpit.com/images/mags/stories/1986/tecate/51.jpg

barnett468

10-15-2015, 11:06 PM

.

Now I understand why we don't see eye to eye. I'm not a racer, so I wan't my bike to do everything well, rather than just one thing.
.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2037/2132380246_9558f4e21f_b.jpg

El Camexican

10-16-2015, 12:14 AM

barnett468

10-16-2015, 01:14 AM

...you make the Tecate sound like a superior handling machine, but when you read the whole quote, not so much. "The Kawasaki liked to either slide or go straight, nothing in between, exactly the type of handling a skilled racer might want.".

What else did the test riders have to say about the Tecate's suspension? Several riders mentioned that they were able to bottom the suspension, though.

Let's read the actual verdict of the testers. "And now for the king of suspension, the '86 Honda 250R. There were absolutely no snivels from anyone on either the front or the rear boingers.

Yes, they save their sniveling for when a bike with far inferior suspension spanks the bejesus out of their superior handling bike which has far superior suspension too. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/cry.gif

One can only imagine how much worse the beating would be if we actually made the TECATE handle better than a 1959 Cadillac Biarritz, and fixed the crummy suspension....but that would have been even more unfair of us. :(

The youtube video below is for those whom want to be entertained by seeing just how incredibly horrible the 1986 TECATE suspension AND handling really is in an actual Professional race . . It's also one of the few videos of a race on something other than a perfectly smooth track . . There are 5 separate, short, videos in case you can bear to watch all of them.

My third favorite parts is when the announcer says “Marty Hart has flipped end over end... ...they rolled him over in a sea of green.” at the 15 second mark . . My second favorite part is when 3 TECATES led the first lap . . My favorite part is when a TECATE won...again . Man, watchig that happen is getting boring.

1986 National at Washougal Washington

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9E9OaUllsY

WARNING TO ALL HONDA RIDERS – It isn't pretty.

The suspension is mechanically stock on at least some, if not all, of the top placing TECATES . . Some may have increased oil viscosity in the front forks but I doubt many would have . . Jimmy White most likely installed slightly stiffer springs just like he did on the 84/85 bike because he weighed around 190 lbs, however, we offered heavier springs just for this type of case, because, “One size does not fit all.”.

John Neary also rode in that race, so one could ask him exactly what, if anything, he did to his suspension, because he probably weighed at least 30 lbs more than I did at the time.

Steve Mendenhal wins on the TECATE.

The TECATE takes 4 out of the top 5 places.

DNF's – Roger Berman Honda

21 bikes in final race
Approximately 12 are TECATES which equals
Approximately 6 are Yamahas which equals
Approximately 3 are Hondas which equals

3 TECATES lead the first lap

Some entrants are:

Steve Mendenhal .. Kawi . . Leads wire to wire and wins.
Sean Finley …....... Kawi
Denny Pinnel ...…. Kawi
John Neary …....... Kawi
Jimmy White ….... Kawi
Donnie Luce …..... Kawi
Marty Hart …........ Honda

atc300r

10-16-2015, 07:25 AM

I watched that 86 Washington race where Marty crashed in the start of the race . He pasted everyone through out the race and was right on Steves rear at the finish. I dare say with one more lap Marty would have won. Just my two cents.

barnett468

10-16-2015, 01:51 PM

You can really see the front tire digging in in that corner:lol: It should have read; [I]"The massive gyroscopic forces generated by the 11" wide front wheel create enough of a gravitational pull the rest of the trike is obliged to follow it wherever it goes":lol:
That's our unique and advanced "Gyrosteer" feature which is also included at no extra charge!

Is it just my screen, or is the tank in that Kawi ad already turning brown?:lol::lol::lol:
FACT - No, it is not turning "brown"...it's really more of a Chestnut color.
.

barnett468

10-16-2015, 03:03 PM

.

I watched that 86 Washington race where Marty crashed in the start of the race . He pasted everyone through out the race and was right on Steves rear at the finish. I dare say with one more lap Marty would have won. Just my two cents.
Damn it...there always has to be some joker that watches that race until it ends...I knew I should gave edited it. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thud.gif

Marty Hart was one of the very few Premier racers . . Jimmy White and Dean Sundahl were a couple others . . Although some of the 200 cc riders were fast for their class, they can't really be considered in the same category since 250 was the Premier class.

His actual time from start to finish on that race was around 15 seconds faster than anyone else's, which means that if he had started in first place, and kept up that pace, he would have won by around 15 seconds, which would have been herculean considering the competition . . He spanked the livin crap out of Jimmy White, Sean Finley, Donnie Luce, John Neary, and around 14 other guys [because at least 3 of them had bike problems].

The odd thing with some racers, including myself, is that they occasionally go faster after they crash . . Bob Hannah is probably the most obvious example of this, and although he may have done well anyway, this seems to have been the case with Marty on that day, because he has obviously also been beaten MANY times.

I for one love come from behind charges like that no matter whom makes them because it's exciting to watch, plus being a racer, I can appreciate what it takes to do that, especially against the top riders in the world.

I raced against Marty before, and the first time I did, he blew by me and around 3 other guys within one straightaway on the Baja Cross course at Saddleback, and although I knew I wasn't burning up the track that day, I thought I was going at a decent pace and think I ended up around 10th, which still ain't bad considering the competition . . Anyway, when he blew by me, I could tell that he actually had his throttle pegged to the max the entire time and was using just his clutch when he needed to . . He has definitely a man on a mission like he often was, while I was apparently just a man out for a leisurely cruise. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

Yes, there is absolutely no doubt that he would have won had that particular race had it been one or two laps longer, HOWEVER, [I bet some people knew that was coming] second place is really nothing more than "First Looser", and this was the last race in a series, and whomever has the best overall finishes in a series is the one that wins the Championship, which in this case, unfortunately for the Honda AND Yamaha riders, it was AGAIN "The Kawasaki TECATE...The Bike With The Worst, Suspension, Worst Handling, Worst Engine, Worst Stator, Worst Gas Tank, Worst Front Tire, Worst Kick Starter, Worst Headlight, Worst Styling, AND...The Worst Reliability In The World!"...but the kill switch works bitchen....sometimes. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Holy crap Barn...what a pile of dog crap those 10 time Championship Winning Tecate's are!

. . http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/l/laughing/graphics-laughing-867787.gif

barnett468

10-16-2015, 03:21 PM

What i like more about the Tecate is the value cause it`s rare ! If i could find a mohawk tire to fit the stock front rim on my `86 i`d be real happy .......i want to make it a one-off duner ! :Bounce:Bounce:Bounce:w00t::Bounce:Bounce:Bounce

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/723/6057/Skat~Trak-Mohawk-ATV-Tire?term=23x8x11+atv+tires

.................................................. ........................ skat trak mohawk

.................................................h ttps://images.rockymountainatvmc.com/images/prod/275/t/t_moh_tire.jpg

that Mohawk sure looks a lot like a kenda max with the outer knobs removed to me . . some tire shops can do that . . I haven't seen a tire with a solid center rib in that size.

.................................................. https://www.denniskirk.com/dk/product_images/k2/290pix/k284.jpg[/

John_Neary

10-16-2015, 05:22 PM

barnett468

10-16-2015, 05:53 PM

.
.

Now I understand why we don't see eye to eye. I'm not a racer, so I wan't my bike to do everything well, rather than just one thing.

I can certainly understand that, however, I on the other hand am a racer, and I have only gone trail riding around 10 times in my life because it is boring to me . . I'm not knocking it but it just isn't my thing, which is why “recreational” bikes aren't my thing either.

I had to take a bunch of Japanese from Kawi to Glamis on Thanksgiving Weekend one year so they could see how people used their bikes in the Desert and so they could also do some riding themselves, and only once did I ever go more than 100 feet from the camp, and even then I couldn't get back to the camp fast enough, however, in this case, it was partially due to the utterly insane things many people do their when they ride.

If I did want a recreational 2 stroke 3 wheeler to just cruise around on, I would definitely buy a Honda because it's ideal for that . . . There is no way in hell the Tecate can compete in the “User friendly and easy to ride” class” because it's designed as more of a race/high performance bike, and I have mentioned a few times before on different threads that there was absolutely no concern for the average rider when it was designed, which really is one reason that ad I posted said "BEGINNERS NEED NOT APPLY" . . In fact, as far as I know, there was never an ad that even remotely implied that the Tecate is a great bike for one to learn how to ride on . . I posted some of the more entertaining ones below.

Comparing the Honda to the Tecate is really a bit like comparing an Enduro bike to an MX bike . . They are both best at what they are specifically designed to do . . That's not knocking the Honda at all because their focus was on a broad market and ours was on a narrow one, it's that simple . . If Honda's focus was the same as ours, the ATC250R would have been less user friendly and far more specialized because Honda certainly has absolutely no problem building great bikes more often than not . . I have also owned more Honda's than any other brands, so I am definitely not a Honda hater.

If you let the Honda idle, then slowly let the clutch out with it in second gear, it will probably just go forward . . The Tecate won't even do that in first gear...and we couldn't have cared any less.

Unfortunately, none of us can really have our cake and eat it too unless we buy a Chevy LS1 . . There obviously is a difference between a bike or car that does everything “decent” and one that does one or two things far better than it does other things . . Take an F40 Ferrari and a 1959 Cadillac Biarritz for example . . One would certainly never mistake is jarring ride over rough roads or it's firm, confining seats for that of the Caddy's, and on the other hand, the Caddy thinks a skid pad is something one wears on their knees when the go skateboarding, and if you can't lay down in a soft comfy seat at the drive in, there's no point in having one.

The Honda is the bike I would rather let my kids ride . . The Tecate is the bike I would rather have my neighbors obnoxious kids ride.

FUN FACT - The 86 Tecate won the very first National it was raced in.

............................................... http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/pppics/sKxt250044x86kxt_1_.jpg

.................................................. ...https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7146/6785886651_27480616d1.jpg

...................https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e6/17/db/e617db101fd8c99e5e0e4168d645dbe0.jpg

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/files/Sads/sKaw1986kxt250Tecatead.jpg
.

barnett468

10-16-2015, 07:02 PM

I won my heat race at that 1986 Washington race on my mostly stock 86 Tecate and then crashed hard at the start of my Quad heat race and got a concussion, still raced both mains but was on cloud nine and did not go very well.

My 86 Tecate had most of the engine internals from the 86 KX250 dirt bike i had and it hauled ass.

That's a bummer about the crash, that's a very long way to go for a race to have that happen and ruin your day

Just curious, exactly what did you do to your suspension for that race because I don't know what Jimmy did on his 86 bike and he weighed around 190 lbs? . . I'm guessing you were somewhere close to that . . I weighed 155, so I'm guessing the suspension would have been too light for both of you guys even if you set the adjustment to the max.

John_Neary

10-16-2015, 07:32 PM

Just oil and valving i believe, Wayne at PEP had his stuff figured out and i would just hand him my shock and forks once i had broke them in and they where ready for service. I do not recall us putting stiffer springs on, we bought the 86 Tecate when they very first came out and never did much testing or anything with it as i was much more committed to Quads by mid 1986 and only raced three wheelers at a few events.

Red Rider

10-16-2015, 08:35 PM

I can certainly understand that, however, I on the other hand am a racer, and I have only gone trail riding around 10 times in my life because it is boring to me . . I'm not knocking it but it just isn't my thing, which is why “recreational” bikes aren't my thing either.I wouldn't say I'm a trail rider, I've just never raced in an organized racing event. The majority of my riding these days, is at the dunes, and while I've toned down my riding quite a bit in the last 15 years, I still like to go fast, especially uphill at the dunes. Even though I would never own a Tecate (I could never get used to the vibration), the 86/87 did hit a home run in the looks & tech departments, and inspired a few of the things I've done to my 250R. Without the 86/87 Tecate, my R wouldn't be sporting it's CR250 HPP cylinder, aluminum swingarm, or aerodynamic headlight. So, if those were your ideas, "thank you". If not, thank the appropriate person(s) at Kawasaki for me.

An absolutely sweet pic, which deserves another look.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/pppics/sKxt250044x86kxt_1_.jpg

I'm so glad we understand each other now. :beer

John_Neary

10-16-2015, 09:14 PM

That is my friend Don Turk on the Tecate in the pic above. great guy and a heck of a fast rider. He was one of the main test riders for 3&4 wheel action is how i got to know him, he is riding the Tri-Z in that 86 250R shootout photo i posted a couple pages back.

phantomtracer

10-16-2015, 10:11 PM

I love that pic, there is a pic of the 81/82 250r screaming down a dune with a nice wave of sand that is forever etched in my memory. I think it was an official Honda promotional shot. It's the reason I want to experience riding on the dunes before I get so old I forget my name!

Red Rider

10-16-2015, 11:29 PM

Oh yeah, one other thing, tell Vernon I'll be at the Scorpion sand dunes lookin' for a country boy on a Tecate!

Uhhhh, anybody know where the hell the Scorpion sand dunes are? :wondering

christph

10-16-2015, 11:41 PM

I bet "Scorpion Dunes" is Glamis--just a guess looking at their height.

fieldy

10-17-2015, 09:27 AM

Scorpion sand dunes.... head straight west go down big dune, make sure you visit the Vernon Kawasaki sunscreen, water and shovel shop on east side of the big dune before you go.:D

barnett468

10-17-2015, 07:30 PM

.

Just oil and valving i believe, Wayne at PEP had his stuff figured out and i would just hand him my shock and forks once i had broke them in and they where ready for service. I do not recall us putting stiffer springs on, we bought the 86 Tecate when they very first came out and never did much testing or anything with it as i was much more committed to Quads by mid 1986 and only raced three wheelers at a few events.

John, thanks for the reply . . I'm not very surprised if you used a little heavier fork oil since you were a very fast rider and weighed a bit more than I did . . I am a little surprised that you didn't need slightly heavier springs however, even though I could hardly get the prototype and pre-production bikes to to bottom on either end and I was basically dropping them straight down off ledges . . THAT part of the testing was less than fun.

The shock damping was designed so the approved/delivered setting was supposed to be in the middle positions or just 1 click off of that, and it was a fairly big and noticeable change when changing it from the middle to the limit at either end, so I'm guessing it still might have been ok if adjusted to the max settings, however, if you needed even more for a particular track, you would have been out of luck.

I started racing my friends Suzuki quad in maybe late 84 at Carlsbad and Ascot, and rode one National with it where I got the hole shot, then got rear ended so hard at the bottom of a big downhill by a clown named Jim Putman whom shouldn't have even been allowed on a bike . . That sent me and the bike flying off the track and I crashed majorly hard, so again, I can sympathize with you going all the way to Washington to race and crashing hard.

John_Neary

10-17-2015, 09:02 PM

Ah Jim "Put Put" Putman was not a bad guy and i never considered him a dirty rider, i raced with Jim for years and if anything i thought of him as a bit of a wimp out on the track. Im sure he didnt mean to hit you so hard.

The trouble with that race in Washington was they had a rather big jump that was at an angle in the first turn so the guys with a good start with go to roll the downside but the meatheads that raced like we where on bumper cars would just ram into the clump of riders ahead of them and there was a crash at almost every pro start.

I got my 86 Tecate when they very first came out and there was next to no spares like springs and stuff and by the time the hop up market caught up i had decided i disliked the bike and sold it, mostly due to the foot pegs being to high and the seat to low for a rider of my size. Felt like my knees where in my face when i sat on it. The 85 was a much better fit for me.

barnett468

10-17-2015, 10:53 PM

Ah Jim "Put Put" Putman was not a bad guy and i never considered him a dirty rider, i raced with Jim for years and if anything i thought of him as a bit of a wimp out on the track. Im sure he didnt mean to hit you so hard.

"Wimp", lol.

I think part of the problem at the time he and I were both racing, was that he was inexperienced which made him a little dangerous to pass because he simply didn't have good control over his bike . . I'm sure you know the type . . If you go to pass an experienced rider whom rides clean, you know pretty much what they are going to do in a turn or when entering or exiting one etc, however, he could be on one side of the track one second and the opposite side of the track the next without any warning or reason so I was actually afraid to try and pass him.

I'm guessing it's possible he got so excited about getting a second place start at that big race that he was simply going WAY too fast and that he either misjudged when to brake or just couldn't stop, but if I had gone any faster, it would have taken me to the outside of the turn which was a little off camber and I would have gotten freight trained by everyone and their brother...and sister. The other bummer is that that was a really rough track which is what I like and I kinda laid off the beverages for a little while before the race, so with a first place start and the way the track was laid out, I really doubt that anyone other than Gary Denton would have passed me . . Heck, even if I would have ended up fifth, I would have been plenty happy.

Another bummer is that there was an AMA Pro MX race the same day so the Kawi race team brought the quad up for me and they were all looking forward to watching me make a fool of myself . . Eddie Warren and Jeff Ward were there too and were kinda bummed because they wanted to see me race too.

The trouble with that race in Washington was they had a rather big jump that was at an angle in the first turn so the guys with a good start with go to roll the downside but the meatheads that raced like we where on bumper cars would just ram into the clump of riders ahead of them and there was a crash at almost every pro start.

Yeah, the first turn is always hairy isn't it, because you just never know when some clown will just plow into the back or side of you . . I was lucky when I raced MX because I was always a very good starter and was rarely farther back than maybe 5th going into the first turn, so it wasn't that crowded . . I guess I practiced starts a lot because I learned early on that it is much easier to start in first then work your way back than it is to start in last and work your way forward.

I got my 86 Tecate when they very first came out and there was next to no spares like springs and stuff and by the time the hop up market caught up i had decided i disliked the bike and sold it, mostly due to the foot pegs being to high and the seat to low for a rider of my size. Felt like my knees where in my face when i sat on it. The 85 was a much better fit for me.

I think the 86 Tecate and Honda had the same amount of suspension travel, and I thought the ergonomics were even tighter on the Honda but I don't remember exactly now, but imo, both bikes were maxed out as far as center of gravity went etc, meaning that if the bike got higher due to more suspension travel, the track would have had to be made wider to compensate and it would have had to be made a hair longer to keep it from looping out more easily.

I think the travel on a 1974 CR125 was around 7.5 inches, and both the Honda and the Tecate eclipsed that by a mile relatively speaking.

barnett468

10-17-2015, 11:26 PM

.

Oh yeah, one other thing, tell Vernon I'll be at the Scorpion sand dunes lookin' for a country boy on a Tecate!

Ok, and I'll tell him to look down from the top of the Widow Maker hill fer a city slicker that is all duded up and riding a fancy looking [by design] 250r on which he installed a CR250 HPP cylinder in hopes of even keeping within viewing distance of the next TECATE he "attempts" race up a Dune. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

barnett468

10-17-2015, 11:51 PM

.

Uhhhh, anybody know where the hell the Scorpion sand dunes are? :wondering

SCORPION DUNES

Ah yes, this indeed does have to be Glamis as christph guessed . . It's pretty much the only place like it in California, and since Kawi's advertising department was also in our building in Irvine, Glamis is within a reasonable distance for them.

As far as the ads went, marketing never asked us for suggestions for ads or had us review any ads they proposed, which I think was a mistake considering we knew everything about the vehicles and they didn't know squat because they were not allowed to see any test reports, therefore, other than the actual specs, they really had no idea if the new boat we made could even float, or if the Tecate could even beat an ATC110.

For the most part, the advertising department simply made all this stuff up, and as far as the Vernon ad goes, I think it's extremely corny and not that great . . It's targeted at the young crowd but was written by people that were maybe 40 and older, so I question just how well the attempted witticisms connected with the group they were trying to target.

I still generally liked Kawi's ads the best though . . This is mainly because they always have some text . . A big part of Honda's ad campaign for the 250R was just the opposite of Kawi's in that most of the ads had little to no text other than "HONDA ATC250R" in bold print . . They certainly could have capitalized on the fact that some of their features were unique to their bike and possibly made an ad that read similar to the one below.

............................................... THE WORLD OF 3 WHEELERS JUST GOT A WHOLE LOT BETTER

The all new ATC250R is the only ATC in it's class to have power robbing anti vibration technology that we call "SLEEP EZE", which provides the smoothest and most lack luster engine performance in the market.

It is also the first and only ATC in its class to have a 6 speed transmission, simply because it needs it, which provides ultra smooth shifts, and insures you will always have the power you need to try and keep up with the competition.
Its new patented NOVICE-LINKhttp://www.escapecodes.info/images/174.gif rear suspension combined with its massive balloon type tires is able to soak up even the smallest bumps at the slowest speeds.

Even the thumb throttle that we have used on all our products for the last 35 years has been updated with a new profile that provides a lack of comfort that is so low it was previously thought to be unobtainable, and it affords inconsistent control over the engines mighty modest power band.

.................................................. ..... HONDA...WHEN FIRST PLACE IS JUST TOO GOOD FOR YOU!

.......................................... THE ALL NEW ATC250R, POWERFUL ENOUGH TO ALMOST DO A POWER SLIDE

...................................http://atvondemand.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/classics_test_1985_1986_honda_atc250r_turn_3-e1402512930870.jpg

Red Rider

10-18-2015, 02:18 PM

...I got the hole shot, then got rear ended so hard at the bottom of a big downhill by a clown named Jim Putman whom shouldn't have even been allowed on a bike . . That sent me and the bike flying off the track and I crashed majorly hard,...

Ah Jim "Put Put" Putman was not a bad guy and i never considered him a dirty rider, i raced with Jim for years and if anything i thought of him as a bit of a wimp out on the track. Im sure he didnt mean to hit you so hard.I disagree. He was probably tired of listening to Barnett run his mouth, and finally decided to put his ego in check.

Its new patented NOVICE-LINKhttp://www.escapecodes.info/images/174.gif rear suspension combined with its massive balloon type tires is able to soak up even the smallest bumps at the slowest speeds.
More cracks about the 250R's world-class suspension? It must really be eating you up inside that the 250R had better suspension than your precious Tecate. It's OK Barnett, I'm sure you R&D'd your little heart out when you designed the Tecate. :cry: It's just a little sub-par. Damn those guys at Honda for setting the bar so high! :welcome:

barnett468

10-19-2015, 01:07 AM

I'm not a racer, so I wan't my bike to do everything well, rather than just one thing.

Let's see the rest of that quote that you so conveniently cut short. "As for the Honda, though we agreed it wasn't the fastest, many felt that the motor was the best overall. Described as being hard-hitting in all segments of the power-band, the Honda's motor was controllable and powerful."

...you make the Tecate sound like a superior handling machine, but when you read the whole quote, not so much. Now let's read the whole quote, "The Kawasaki liked to either slide or go straight, nothing in between, exactly the type of handling a skilled racer might want."

Even though I would never own a Tecate (I could never get used to the vibration), the 86/87 did hit a home run in the looks & tech departments, and inspired a few of the things I've done to my 250R. Without the 86/87 Tecate, my R wouldn't be sporting it's CR250 HPP cylinder, aluminum swingarm, or aerodynamic headlight. So, if those were your ideas, "thank you". If not, thank the appropriate person(s) at Kawasaki for me.

An absolutely sweet pic, which deserves another look.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/pppics/sKxt250044x86kxt_1_.jpg

I'm so glad we understand each other now. :beer

Sorry but I'm now confused by a few of your comments.

I don't understand what you mean by “Without the 86/87 Tecate, my R wouldn't be sporting it's CR250 HPP cylinder,”.

After reading your statements in the first quote above, I got the impression that you were perfectly happy with the Honda just the way they made it . . After reading the statements in your subsequent quote above, am I to now understand that even though you stated about yourself, "I'm not a racer...", you actually still did NOT think the Honda had enough power so you installed the CR250 HPP cylinder from Honda's Motocross RACER on it to increase its power?

If you didn't think it had enough power, and you installed that cylinder because of it, does this mean that you also installed an aftermarket pipe, silencer, and/or carburetor?

If that's the case, imo its obvious that you actually were NOT happy with the amount of power the Honda had in stock form.

Sorry but I also don't understand what you mean by “Without the 86/87 Tecate, my R wouldn't be sporting it's CR250 HPP cylinder, aluminum swingarm,” . . I thought you were happy with the way the Honda came right out of the box . . Am I to now understand that you didn't think the Honda was light enough so you installed an aluminum swing arm, or that perhaps it didn't handle well enough so you installed a longer arm that was made from aluminum?

If you were not happy with the Honda's suspension, did you change anything in the front suspension?

...the 86/87 did hit a home run in the looks & tech departments, and inspired a few of the things I've done to my 250R. Without the 86/87 Tecate, my R wouldn't be sporting it's CR250 HPP cylinder, aluminum swingarm, or aerodynamic headlight. So, if those were your ideas, "thank you". If not, thank the appropriate person(s) at Kawasaki for me.

ENGINE POWER

If you are referring to the Tecate's power characteristics, the full explanation of how it came about is long and complicated, so I will give you the shortest one I can that still might give you an idea of how the engine came about.

The decision of exactly what the cylinder style or basic port configuration should be was not US R and D departments to make . . That was made by the management in Japan without any input from me or anyone else in the US, however, I do know that the managements objective was to build a bike that was faster than the Honda, and having the same, or a better overall power band than the Honda was of absolutely no concern . . As I mentioned in a previous post, we really didn't care if a novice rider liked it.

Honda already had the best overall bike for the typical user, and although we certainly could have toned the Tecate down in many areas, there was no logic to that because we knew that even if we did make a bike that was EXACTLY like the Honda in very single way, Honda would still outsell the Tecate by maybe 5 to 1, however, it was obvious that we could make a bike that was a higher performance type than the Honda and that this would possibly reduce the amount of average riders that might buy it, but we figured we would gain some of the buyers that were looking for something with a bit more performance.

Anyway, in the case of the Tecate, along with the prototypes they would send a couple different cylinders and pipes . . The original engine was actually pretty anemic so I went thru the other spare parts and it still kinda sucked and wasn't nearly good enough so we had a meeting and Japan made some more parts which included 3 pipes they had run on the dyno so I tested all the parts and finally came up with the combo that was used for production . . In fact, the pipe that was used for production actually produced less peak power than another one of the test pipes which made it pipey like a vintage 125 MX bike which was actually a lot of fun but not really practical . . The pipe that did get used produced a much smoother power band and better overall power . . So to answer your question, I am responsible for the combo it has on it, however, I dd not personally design any of the parts I used.

As a side note . . The 86 Tecate pinged horribly in the beginning and it had to be reduced . . I also knew it was due the the restrictive muffler but that couldn't be changed . . I also knew the pinging could be reduced if it was detuned, but no one wanted that to happen, so I asked Harry Klemm if he had any ideas, and he thought a head that had a different shaped squish band would help so I gave him a head and he modified it but unfortunately, it made very little change so we tried different carbs and different tuning etc and finally reduced it to a level that we thought was acceptable.

SWINGARM

As far as the swingarm being aluminum instead of steel goes, that was partially my idea but some others had the same idea . . As far as its actual design goes, it incorporated some of my design and some of another persons, and the actual final production drawings were done by them . . Even when we did what could be considered to be final production drawings in the US, Japan might change them slightly so they were easier for them to produce on the assembly line but theses changes wouldn't change the integrity of the part or its appearance by much . . The aluminum used on that arm is also good and that arm is actually flexes much less than the 84/85 arm.

HEADLIGHT

The headlight and all the plastic was designed by someone else, however, the entire bike went through a design review at US R and D and everyone determined it to be acceptable for production . . Because Kawi in Japan had majorly jumped the gun on this particular bike and already made the final molds, it would have been difficult with the limited time there was before its release to change anything anyway unless it was deemed to be unacceptable for production.

I'm so glad we understand each other now. :beer

Actually, unfortunately, I don't understand you at all just yet, because imo, your statements seem to be contradict themselves, which is why I asked you a few questions so you could clarify some things so I would not misunderstand you.

http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/cheers.gif

Red Rider

10-19-2015, 04:35 AM

Sorry but I'm now confused by a few of your comments.

After reading your statements in the first quote above, I got the impression that you were perfectly happy with the Honda just the way they made it . . After reading the statements in your subsequent quote above, am I to now understand that even though you stated about yourself, "I'm not a racer...", you actually still did NOT think the Honda had enough power so you installed the CR250 HPP cylinder from Honda's Motocross RACER on it to increase its power?I was perfectly happy with the way my 250R came from the factory, and had every intention of leaving it stock. But, even though I wasn't racing in any organized events, when one goes riding with their brother/friends, there is always some racing that happens. Pretty soon your brother/friend starts modding their bike to be faster, so you have to do the same, and then it snowballs from there (by the way, I'm really surprised you don't know how this whole dance works).

If you didn't think it had enough power, and you installed that cylinder because of it, does this mean that you also installed an aftermarket pipe, silencer, and/or carburetor?I thought it had plenty of power, but when everybody else starts making their ATC's faster, then one has to respond. (I've probably got the actual sequence a bit out of order, but as I recall) I started off by ditching the airbox lid, then a K&N airfilter, boyesen reeds, & reedblock spacer, then an aftermarket silencer. A little while later an aftermarket expansion chamber, then porting of the stock cylinder along with a shaved head, and finally a larger carburetor. Even Tecate (TWMP3W) owners' did similar mods.

I don't understand what you mean by “Without the 86/87 Tecate, my R wouldn't be sporting it's CR250 HPP cylinder,”.Pretty simple, if the Tecate (TWMP3W) wasn't powervalved, I probably wouldn't have gone that route. But it was, and in the test of the '86 250R, Dirt Wheels mentioned that the ATC's centercases would now accept a CR250 top end. Then I saw a pic of Marty Hart's TRX with the CR250 top end, and the wheels started turning in my head.

Sorry but I also don't understand what you mean by “Without the 86/87 Tecate, my R wouldn't be sporting it's aluminum swingarm,” . . I thought you were happy with the way the Honda came right out of the box . . Am I to now understand that you didn't think the Honda was light enough so you installed an aluminum swing arm, or that perhaps it didn't handle well enough so you installed a longer arm that was made from aluminum?I really shouldn't have given the Tecate (TWMP3W) credit for my decision to go with an aluminum swingarm, as that wasn't the driving force. Once again, I was very happy with the performance of my suspension, but I decided to try a longer swingarm for dune riding. While I was at it, I figured, why haul a heavy steel swingarm uphill? That was really the deciding factor for aluminum. Didn't Team Kawasaki run a +2 swingarm (Calfab, I believe) on some race courses? Yes they did. So even the Tecate (TWMP3W) needed some tweaking for racing.

If you were not happy with the Honda's suspension, did you change anything in the front suspension?Where did I say I wasn't happy with the suspension? See what happens when one assumes? Once again spin doctor, I was plenty happy with the front suspension, and the Tecate (TWMP3W) had long been forgotten at this point, inspirationally speaking of course. When Honda first put inverted forks on the CR250 in 1990, new inspiration had arrived, and the wheels started turning again. Fast forward a few years and now it is early 2000. I love fabricating parts that aren't available for an ATC, so now modernization & uniqueness are my driving force. For me, the 250R was the perfect blank canvas for my artwork.

barnett468

10-19-2015, 06:07 PM

.

............................................... http://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/pppics/sKxt250044x86kxt_1_.jpg

I saw your original post and now see that you have modified it.

Once again spin doctor,
So are you now saying/admitting you are a "spin doctor"?

This is not a trait that engineers and stylists and test riders and racers etc can afford to have . . I and others that work in these areas leave that up to the marketing departments . . We only seek facts and cant afford the luxury of denying them.

The undeniable fact is that you have been touting the Honda as the perfect all around bike in box stock form and implying that it was perfect for you just the way it came, however, you now state you did in fact change the swingarm, AND the suspension, AND the pipe, AND, the silencer, AND the pipe, AND the carburetor, AND the cylinder AFTER you thought the stock one which you ported was STILL NOT FAST ENOUGH . . My god man, is there actually ANYTHING left on your bike at all that IS actually stock?

Since you DID install a different pipe, AND silencer, AND, carburetor AND the cylinder AFTER you thought the stock one which you ported was STILL NOT FAST ENOUGH, you obviously didn't think it had enough power . . It does not matter whether you thought it had enough at first or not, the FACT remains that you installed a cylinder and the other parts to increase the power because you were not happy with it, and now you are trying to make excuses for why you did it.

Where did I say I wasn't happy with the suspension? See what happens when one assumes? Once again spin doctor,

I never said, or implied, that you were not happy with the suspension although your subsequent comment regarding the upside down forks tells me that you weren't . . Even still, my question prior to your comment regarding the forks was just a question . . It was NOT an assumption as you assumed it to be . . If I was assuming that you didn't like the suspension, I would have said the following.

"Since If you were not happy with the Honda's suspension, did you change anything in the front suspension?"

Below is what I actually said . . Notice the word "If" preceding the remainder of the question..

If you were not happy with the Honda's suspension, did you change anything in the front suspension?

Even Tecate (TWMP3W) owners' did similar mods.

This is not the point and merely seems like an excuse to try and divert attention from the fact that the Honda was ultimately not good enough for you in stock form as you initially lead us to believe.

Since you did make some changes to it, it seems logical and reasonable to me to surmise that you in fact were NOT completely happy with the way it came from the factory, because if it was as good out of the box as you have made it out to be, you would have left it that way forever irregardles of when different upgrades became available or which friend of yours had a faster bike [a Tecate] etc.

Didn't Team Kawasaki run a +2 swingarm (Calfab, I believe) on some race courses? Yes they did. So even the Tecate (TWMP3W) needed some tweaking for racing.

This too is deflecting attention from the point and is therefore irrelevant, however, I ran a stock swing arm on my 84 bike that I elongated the adjustment holes on so it would be 3/4" longer . . I would hardly call that a significant change, besides, you are trying to confuse the issue by comparing full blown race bikes to box stock bikes that were designed for recreation and not full blown racing . . This being said, the Tecate suspension was in fact capable of being used by some people and some types of racing just as delivered . . As John Neary mentioned, even though he did have his rear shock revalved, he raced his with box stock springs and he actually weighed around 50 lbs more than I did and there were some people in the Washougal race I posted raced them with box stock suspension and it was a PRO NATIONAL RACE and if you watch that race you can clearly see Mendenhal blazing over the whoop section while Marty Hartss bike looks like it is beatin the crap out of him.

It's OK Barnett, I'm sure you R&D'd your little heart out when you designed the Tecate. It's just a little sub-par. Damn those guys at Honda for setting the bar so high!

You also CONTINUE to tout the 250r as the Shoot Out King which is inaccurate and misleading . . Once AGAIN, below is what the magazine said, however, for some reason, it seems to me that you can only acknowledge part of the magazines comments which are the ones that favor the Honda . . You can try as hard and as long as you want to get people to believe that I abbreviated the text or put a "spin' on it or whatever, but no matter what you say, there it is, and nothing you say will ever change the words they wrote on the page.

"The winner of the Rec Bike Award goes to. . the Honda 250R!"

"And the winner of the Race Bike Award goes to. . the Kawasaki Tecate!"

More cracks about the 250R's world-class suspension? It must really be eating you up inside that the 250R had better suspension than your precious Tecate.

You continue to berate the Kawi suspension based upon just one comment from one magazine, which contrary to your incorrect belief, I think is hilarious . . Below are a few other comments regarding it.

From 3&4 Wheel Action

"The Tri-Z and Tecate received more suspension travel for '86, making this year's battle for King of Suspension quite close."

From Dirt Wheels April 1986 . . They thrashed the crap out of the bike for more than a week and there was nothing but glowing compliments for both the front and rear suspension, but feel free to try and spin that too if you want.

http://www.quadpit.com/mags/1986/stories/1986-tecate01.htm

"Increased travel (9.8 inches) front and rear makes jumping the '86 a real pleasure."

"The machine is extremely stable in the air and lands smoothly on the plush bouncers."

"Last year's forks were good; the '86 hardware is great.

"The forks worked so well that most of us forgot about them."

"Nose landings were absorbed without a second glance, and whoops were all but ignored by the plush front end."

"The rear shock is now fitted with a temperature-compensating damping control that helps reduce premature fade,"

"We complained that the '85 shock bottomed too easily so this year the brain boys at Kawasaki lifted the rear bouncer with a temperature-compensating damping control. They also revised the linkage and slapped on an aluminum swingarm and strut. The result? A good 9.8 inches of wheel travel (as opposed to 8.3 inches in '85), less fade and a plushier ride."

"There is no packing up through the whoops, and killer jumps are laughed at by the Uni-Trak rear end.

"The only gripe we had with the tail end of the machine was that the rear grab handle broke off after only a week of testing."

"Did we mention that the Kawasaki has power to burn? It does! From a relatively mild low end, the mill pumps out sand blasting roost juice in the mid range and continues to build power geometrically throughout the top end all the way into the outer reaches of the atmosphere."

"IS IT A WINNER?

Yes! It is easy to see that we were totally impressed with the '86 Tecate. This machine has some easily fixed minor flaws, but it can and will win races against the best the other ATV manufacturers have to throw at it."

onformula1

10-19-2015, 07:35 PM

Looking to buy front tire, something that is close to stock. Any suggestions?

I wonder if phantomracer's question was answered to his satisfaction???

barnett468

10-19-2015, 07:54 PM

.
Aside from another tire option I made in post 30, phantomtracers question was answered as well as it possibly could be by post 9 which was made around 12 hours after he started the thread, and it seemed like he was interested in the Cheetah tire the most.

Red Rider

10-19-2015, 10:20 PM

I saw your original post and now see that you have modified it.

So are you now saying/admitting you are a "spin doctor"?No sirree. It's just that I have one of those edit buttons, and like to flaunt it from time to time. :naughty: To tell you the truth, this morning, while reviewing my post from late last night (when the website server was too busy), I found a few sentences that I decided to reword, to better convey my meaning to you, but alas, that was a total waste of my time.

Post all you want in here. This thread is dead to me, much to the delight of many 3ww members. :drool:

onformula1

10-19-2015, 10:33 PM

No sirree. It's just that I have one of those edit buttons, and like to flaunt it from time to time. :naughty: To tell you the truth, this morning, while reviewing my post from late last night (when the website server was too busy), I found a few sentences that I decided to reword, to better convey my meaning to you, but alas, that was a total waste of my time.

Post all you want in here. This thread is dead to me, much to the delight of many 3ww members. :drool:

Thank goodness, besides you know the real discussions about the pro's and con's of all trikes happens in person, texts, PM's, emails, phone calls, out riding with your pals, ETC. where you don't get ridiculed publicly for having a opinion or even posting facts.

phantomtracer

10-19-2015, 11:16 PM

Wow, I'm afraid to comment. i would love to have all three bikes, 250r, tri-z and kxt.
I did get an answer, I am going to look into the cheetah. But the are unavailable, correct?

barnett468

10-19-2015, 11:18 PM

.
phantomtracer, this is a kenda pathfinder 23x8x11 . . maybe not the prettiest tire but another option . . unfortunately a lot of these places dont say how many plies they are

http://www.amazon.com/Kenda-Pathfinder-K530-ATV-Tire/dp/B005D2CPHG

.........................................http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Odu3P6kKL._SY355_.jpg

onformula1

10-19-2015, 11:22 PM

Wow, I'm afraid to comment. i would love to have all three bikes, 250r, tri-z and kxt.
I did get an answer, I am going to look into the cheetah. But the are unavailable, correct?

Yeah, I had all three, liked all three, will do it again someday. :lol:

They posted online mid November, 2015

If you need one quick you may want to try and pre pay for one. (I think they will sell much better than the rears they make)

barnett468

10-19-2015, 11:30 PM

Wow, I'm afraid to comment. i would love to have all three bikes, 250r, tri-z and kxt.
I did get an answer, I am going to look into the cheetah. But the are unavailable, correct?

Hey phantomtracer, I posted their info below so you can actually get all the info directly from them if you call or email . . Unfortunately, all we can do is guess.

Tire p/n posted by dimitris is HP577cf

http://www.hpcheetahtires.com/contact_no_map.html

onformula1

10-19-2015, 11:35 PM

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/173122-Article-quot-Cheetah-quot-Dunlop-KT577-Reproduction-Tires-Now-Available/page2

barnett468

10-19-2015, 11:35 PM

.
.............................. Here's some better photos of it . . It even has a little white Cheetah on the side.

.................http://i61.tinypic.com/1rx1na.jpg
.................http://i61.tinypic.com/1z90jr.jpg

El Camexican

10-20-2015, 12:13 AM

It even has a little white Cheetah on the side.

Are you sure that's a cheetah and not a seal? Looks like it might be a seal. Seal season starts in November just like the sale of these tires. Hey! Where's Timmy? Don't tell me he's vacationing in Canada this winter??!!! You know what happens to little seals there don't you? It's not half as bad as what a warmed over 250R does to a Tecate, but it's still not pretty to watch:lol:

222941

barnett468

10-20-2015, 02:17 AM

Are you sure that's a cheetah and not a seal? Looks like it might be a seal. Seal season starts in November just like the sale of these tires. Hey! Where's Timmy? Don't tell me he's vacationing in Canada this winter??!!! You know what happens to little seals there don't you?
PITA has him in their Baby Fur Seal Protection Plan and has been hiding him in a "safe pool" ever since his poor brother got it last season.

.................................................. ..................https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M41dc8eafcca7afd1ef3eabb0561e6446H0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300

It's not half as bad as what a warmed over 250R does to a Tecate, but it's still not pretty to watch :lol:

I definitely agree, the warmed over Honda certainly does make the TECATE look even better when the Honda, with the CR250 HPP cylinder and

fancy pipe and fancy silencer and fancy carb upgrades STILL can't keep up with it, and even if the engine did have enough power, the speed it would develop would easily overwhelm its "Best In The Recreation Category", underwhelming "NOVICE-LINKhttp://www.escapecodes.info/images/174.gif rear suspension. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

barnett468

10-20-2015, 04:09 AM

Are you sure that's a cheetah and not a seal? Looks like it might be a seal. Seal season starts in November just like the sale of these tires. Hey! Where's Timmy? Don't tell me he's vacationing in Canada this winter??!!! You know what happens to little seals there don't you?
PITA has him in their Baby Fur Seal Protection Plan and has been hiding him in a "safe pool" ever since his poor brother got it last season.

.................................................. ..................https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M41dc8eafcca7afd1ef3eabb0561e6446H0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300

It's not half as bad as what a warmed over 250R does to a Tecate, but it's still not pretty to watch :lol:

I definitely agree, the warmed over Honda certainly does make the TECATE look even better when a Honda, with a CR250 HPP cylinder and

fancy pipe and fancy silencer and fancy carb upgrades STILL can't keep up with it, and even if the engine did have enough power, the speed it would develop would easily overwhelm its "Best In The Recreation Category", underwhelming "NOVICE-LINKhttp://www.escapecodes.info/images/174.gif rear suspension. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

barnett468

10-21-2015, 12:52 AM

.

^^^You keep going over & over & over & ha ha .....it ?

Actually I was done, but El Camexican decided to re-join in the fun even though he has a Yammie, so I thought it was only courteous of me to acknowledge his post and to also agree with it . . By the way, if someone made a faux ad making fun of the Tecate I would laugh my as off if it was actually funny like some of the other comments people have made about it on this thread were . . Hell, I'd even help write it.

...................................... THE ALL NEW '86 TECATE, EASIER TO FLIP OVER THAN A TWENTY DOLLAR HOOKER

The Tecates engine is so powerful it is able to hurl the magnets from the flywheel even at idle.
Its unigue, patented, VIBROMATIChttp://www.escapecodes.info/images/174.gif vibration feature helps get you into shape as you try in vain to hold onto the handles bars.

The newly designed kick starter shows a lack of ingenuity rivaled only by that of Obama's health care plan..

If Phantom comes down to Gordy`s for the Invasion he`s gonna want that sweet Skat Trac mohawk you found ! I`d like one of those and the smaller hawlers or skates on the back (gotta power slide)

I'm glad that was a useful post then.

I think the `86 Tecate was rushed to production they grabbed the KX 250 motor put a primary in it and called it a day .......surprise !!

FROM POST 15

First of all, the 86 Tecate is an unfinished bike and is NOT as good as it could have been because we simply ran out of time

Unfortunately, because Japan R and D had MANY things screwed up on the prototype but they thought it was pretty close to good, I had to make some MAJOR final production design/engineering decisions within just 2 weeks . . We usually had a few months.

There`s some rinky-dink sh!t like the shift lever , swingarms too short , ergonomics suck , clusterfack linkage , airbox crap waiting to sand the motor from cracking , shocks right up the carbs arse , hoeky sh!t like that Barnet....Barnet are you listening ?

SHIFT LEVER

I don't know what you don't like about the shift lever, however I can say that neither I, nor anyone else, ever missed a shift on it during testing which was maybe around 300 hours.

ERGONOMICS

As far as the ergonomics go, I liked them and so did everyone else at Kawi for the intended market . . I was 5' 10 and 155 . . Another guy was 5' 11 and around 190. If the target was to be more of a recreational bike, it would have had more peg to seat height etc.

Below is what the 3&4 wheeler magazine said about all the bikes ergonomics . . John Neary was actually part of that test team, however he posted on this thread that the ergonomics were too tight for his liking and I'm guessing he was around 5' 11 and 190 or more . . I have no idea why the magazine did not mention that anyone had a problem with them . . Maybe John didn't mention it for some reason or maybe the magazine was just being nice, I really just don't know . . 3 Wheeling magazine tested the bike for more than a week and said they loved the bike and made no negative comment about the ergonomics so who knows . . Neither magazine made any comment about the shifter at all . . When the majority of the people say somethings fine, then that's the best thing I know of to go on and that's how it typically went at Kawi also.

QUOTES

Basically, riders of all sizes felt comfortable on the Tecate.

Honda's comfort rating was described as plush, but one of the larger riders felt that for those over six foot one-inch, it might be a bit cramped.

Testers did notice the extra room afforded by the longer wheelbase on the Tri-Z.

SWINGARM

imo, saying the Tecate swing arm is too short is like saying the Honda swing arm is too short, which I don't think it is . . Both bikes are pretty much ideal for their respective target markets . . You can't put long swing arm on either without loosing some performance somewhere . . Contrary to some peoples belief, not everyone rides them in the sand Dunes . . If the target market was Duners, it definitely would have had a little longer swing arm, but where do you stop?

As most people know, some people have 2 inch longer arms on their 250r, and some have 4, and some have 6 etc . . I think someone on the site even has one that is 12 inches longer than stock . . With this in mind, which length is unequivocally best for the Dunes? . . As you can see, it's not an easy question to answer because obviously not everyone agrees which is why it's simply impossible to make everybody happy.

I will say that imo, if the swingarrm on either the Tecate or the Honda were any shorter, they would definitely have been too short . . I will also say that I think for the target markets, the Tecate and the Honda arms could have been a little longer and still been acceptable for those markets.

I used a STOCK swingarm on my 84 race bike that I modified to be only 3/4 inches longer than stock, and I was competing against guys with 2, 3, and 4 inch longer arms, and although a longer one than I had would definitely been better for that particular app, the short one was still good enough to keep me out of last place.

During testing I also went over jumps at nearly max speed on thee 84 85 and 86 Tecate, and the arm length was not a problem . . I can assure you that although doing a big power slide is certainly a lot of fun, it is definitely not always the fastest way to get thru a turn.

AIR BOXES AND AIR BOX PLASTIC BREAKING

We never broke or cracked any plastic on the 86, and if it doesn't break during testing, one generally has to assume its acceptable for production . . Plastic continues to age over time, and we did not build the thing to last 30 years, however, in 86 a lot of the plastic Kawi made was more brittle and some of it was also translucent, so we had to have them make some pieces from better material for some of the bikes . . The decision to make crappy plastic was made by Japan and we were definitely not amused, but its their company.

That being said, many of the Tecates on the circuit ran stock air boxes if for no other reason than there were not any aftermarket ones in the beginning and they seemed to have no problem winning races with hem, however, as far as I know, all the Factory Honda guys ran an aluminum box from the TRX.

GENERAL

As far as the Honda goes, if I were to change just one thing, I would have gotten rid of those horrid rear tires they have and use exactly what came on the Tecate.

What some people are unaware of is that we compared the 86 prototype to a brand spankin new 86 250r for several weeks . . This included beating the livin crap out of both of them in the sand and an a rough hard Motocross track etc, so we know exactly how the Honda handles and how the Tecate compared to it in virtually every single area.

When we designed and evaluated bikes, every single nut, bolt, and screw gets evaluated . . For example, if the levers suck, we change them . . If the ergonomics suck, we change them.

We had no illusions about the vibration, however, it was within an acceptable level . . Keep in mind that motocross bikes vibrate also but few people ever complain about those, however, for some reason, it seems that some 3 wheel riders are just pansies, because the vibration certainly didn't prevent Steve Mendenhal from winning the Texas and Washougal Nationals, nor did it prevent the Tecate from winning the 86 National Championship even though it had horrible suspension and the rear shock is stuffed into the carb, and the air box leaks . . I can only imagine just how much more badly we would have beaten Honda if we actually made a good bike

......but i still love it because........even in sh!tty shape it`s still worth twice what my 250r is !

I know the 86 Tecates are hard to find but I didn't know they are worth that much compared to the 250r, however, I would be happier if you liked the bike because of how it worked, but I am aware its not everyone's cup of tea, but again, it wasn't meant to be, nor was it meant to compete with the 250r in the "Easy To Ride" category . . It's a little like going to Magic Mountain . . You can go on a ride that is safe and gives you a reasonable amount of excitement...OR you can go on the Super Mega Octoloop ride and bring an extra pair of shorts . . Neither one is really "better", they're just different.

Oh i`ve had a lot of seat time on a TRI-Z i call it da BIFF MASTER !

Sorry, I don't know what a "BIFF MASTER" is but it kinda sounds like a personal pleasure to me....so I guess it could be fun! . . I never rode a Tri Z but would have liked to . . There were a LOT of them at the Washougal National and they seemed to be doing ok which is definitely a compliment, especially considering that all the premier riders were on a Tecate or a Honda, so for lesser skilled riders to hang in their says a lot for the bike as well as them . . And of course Marty Hart almost won that race, he is Marty Hart after all, and because of that, he would have still done well on a Tecate or maybe even a Yammie.

I`m dreaming of a banshee powered STRETCHED TRI-Z

We did buy a brand new Banshee to test which had very few hours on it when we were done . . I also rode a friend of mines which was stock and I was not impressed with the power for what it was, HOWEVER, I had ridden some Yammie and Kawi 2 stroke 350 twin motorcycles before so I knew there was a LOT of potential in the Banshee engine . . Although that type of bike is not my thing, I still think it was good for its target market and a very bold departure from the norm and I was happy to see a new and unusual addition to the market . . They probably sold the one we had cheap it at an employee sale.

........let the good times roll !!

Whatever it be on. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Jmoozy27

10-21-2015, 10:15 AM

I`m actually impressed Barnett ...... i thought there was some kind of psychosis that needed therapy from Dr. glamy ! My problem is i like all the 2-strokes and to watch it die is hard !......Please don`t scrap your 2-strokes people !

I'm only have interest in resurrecting them...

barnett468

10-21-2015, 05:43 PM

I`m actually impressed Barnett ...... i thought there was some kind of psychosis that needed therapy from Dr. glamy !

Oh, I'm still psychotic Dr Glamy and am definitely in need of some help, but Mr Garrison and Mr Slave think they have just what I need....and it looks kinda fun.

.................................................. ....http://media1.break.com/breakstudios/2012/3/23/MrGarrison_n_MrSlave.jpg

phantomtracer

11-04-2015, 12:06 AM

barnett468

11-04-2015, 02:55 AM

Any suggestions for the rear?

I want to be able to ride a bit on regular hard pack dirt and still be able to ride in the sand, guess I'm looking for a tire like the oem design.

Oh my...this should be interesting. :)

barnett468

11-04-2015, 02:56 AM

.
I would stick with a 4 ply no matter what you get.

barnett468

11-04-2015, 04:08 AM

.
heres what i would consider the most likely suspects in 20 x 11 x 10 but the ply rating needs to be determined on a few

trail demon ply ? . . 54.00

http://www.superatv.com/Trail-Demon-ATV-Tires-P1180.aspx?gclid=CMXe-PWa9sgCFRSFfgodCHcP4w

http://www.superatv.com/Assets/ProductImages/Trail-Demon-Tire-Main-01.jpg

maxis razr2 M934 . . ply ? . . $124.00

http://www.amazon.com/Maxxis-M934-Razr2-20x11x10-TM14542500/dp/B000GV2380

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ULQaV1Q4L._SY355_.jpg

standard itp holeshot . . comes in 4 and 10 ply . . $92.00 . . these have too much crown for me like an ohtsu tire does but im thinking that these might be on an 8" rim but maybe someone else here will know how they look on am 8.5.

http://www.amazon.com/ITP-Holeshot-ATV-Tire-Rear/dp/B008K5J9F4

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51s%2Bs9V9-tL._SY300_.jpg

itp holeshot hd $78.00 . . the link below shows all their holeshot tires

http://www.itptires.com/tires/sport-atv

http://www.racingquads.com/holeshot_hd_tire.gif

maxxis razr m932 ply ? . . $132.00

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MAXXIS-RAZR-MX-M932-20x11x10-REAR-ATV-TIRE-/371130587822

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzEwWDMxMA==/z/QA8AAOSwPe1T-72j/$_35.JPG

sedona bazooka 4 ply . . $73.00

http://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/motorcycle-tires/sedona-bazooka-mx-x-country-atv-tire

http://cdn1.bikebandit-images.com/product_images/se/450/sedona-bazooka-mxx-country-atv-tire.jpg

barnett468

11-04-2015, 04:14 AM

.
ok, it figures. the holeshot HD does not come in 20 x 11 x 10

oldskool83

11-04-2015, 11:16 AM

razr2's suck so much power down. Run a alight 4plt Artrax tire. they work good and are $100 shipped for a set about from motosport.

onformula1

11-04-2015, 12:50 PM

Thanks for the suggestions, I think I am going with the cheetah tire for the front. Any suggestions for the rear?
I want to be able to ride a bit on regular hard pack dirt and still be able to ride in the sand, guess I'm looking for a tire like the oem design.
Run the Cheetah rear tires, 9", swap out the hubs, keep the 10" wheels for a set of paddle tires, use hitch pins and swap the hub, tire and wheel as a whole assembly.

Sent from my SM-G386T1 using Tapatalk

barnett468

11-04-2015, 04:13 PM

.

razr2's suck so much power down.

................................................ Not on a "TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe"

.................................................h ttp://www.3wheelerworld.com/oldsite/pppics/sKxt250044x86kxt_1_.jpg

Run a alight 4plt Artrax tire. they work good and are $100 shipped for a set about from motosport.

Artrax MXT rear . . $50.00

http://www.motosport.com/product?psreferrer=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google. com&pssource=true&segment=badger&key=Artrax-MXT-Rear-Tire&adpos=1o1&creative=64385814025&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=COuWw6rF98gCFUdlfgod6bcHOA

http://content.motosport.com/images/items/large/ATX/ATX0009/X001.jpg

I found a MAXXIS RAZR 2 M932 4 ply . . $88.00

http://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/motorcycle-tires/maxxis-m932-razr-atv-tire

.............http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510VXYNlIkL._AC_UL320_SR260,320_.jpg

barnett468

11-04-2015, 04:22 PM

Any suggestions for the rear?

I want to be able to ride a bit on regular hard pack dirt and still be able to ride in the sand, guess I'm looking for a tire like the oem design.

If you put a Honda size tire and rims on it, it will look and perform more like a Honda.

phantomtracer

11-12-2015, 06:54 PM

I pulled the trigger on a Kenda Front Max. I emailed Cheetah to get an eta over a week ago and never got a response so I figured the front max was a solid choice. Thanks for the recommendations. Still deciding on rears might go with a 20" knobby.

phantomtracer

11-16-2015, 12:25 AM

Anyone have comments about the Kenda K300 for the rear? It looks like an old school knobby.

barnett468

11-16-2015, 02:09 AM

.

Anyone have comments about the Kenda K300 for the rear? It looks like an old school knobby.

The knobs are a little short and therefore won't provide great traction in the sand, so if you plan on riding the hills much, I would use something a bit more aggressive to handle the massive amount of power the TECATE engine readily delivers, especially if you install numerically higher gearing . . A more aggressive tire will also easily bury whatever Honda is behind you in a pile of sand so deep they will need a shovel to dig themselves out . . They will certainly be fine for just general cruising around though.

........................................http://www.quadpit.com/images/mags/stories/1986/tecate/51.jpg

phantomtracer

11-18-2015, 12:07 AM

barnett468

11-18-2015, 12:15 AM

I think I was hoping everyone would say the knobby tires would be fine in the sand, sounds like i need separate tires if I plan on riding the dunes. Thanks for the suggestions and I will probably get extra wheel hubs and rims to make the swap easy.

the other rear tires I posted are also knobby tires . . the issue with the ones you posted is just as I mentioned, . . they will still work but not quite as the others I posted which still have a knobby tread pattern as opposed to a paddle tire . . as mentioned, you don't want paddles with your and don't need them for your app.

do you just not like the look f the ones I posted?
.

onformula1

11-18-2015, 12:18 AM

You can ride in the sand with anything, but if you really want to have fun duning you need these or something close-

http://www.skat-trak.com/paddletire.html

Well worth the money.

Back in the old days there were guys that made a killing renting paddles out at Glamis to guys that thought knobby tires would be fine/fun.

Many of the guys that rented them were friends and family :lol:...they all bought paddles after that!

barnett468

11-18-2015, 12:34 AM

.
phantomtracer, I will try to make this as clear as possible since there seems to be some misunderstanding by some . . Iif you put paddle tires on your tecate, you may very well end up on your ass . . this is NOT a honda, and it obviously does not have a long swing arm . . I have no doubt that you could put paddles on an atc250r with any length swingarm and never have to worry about wheeling over backwards, however, again, a tecate ain't no honda . . As I mentioned, a box stock tectate will wheelie in the sand.

wamulass

11-18-2015, 12:48 AM

sedona bazooka can't be beat for the price. otherwise i like carlisle stryker tires

onformula1

11-18-2015, 01:26 AM

I just got a few texts that post #112 contained very useful information, but I can't see it because-

This message is hidden because barnett468 is on your ignore list.

BUT, I am pretty sure phantomtracer if you don't believe me then maybe a little proof from some members that were at the last Imperial Invasion- ( I would bet any of these trikes would beat a stock Tecate with knobbies)

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/173045-Imperial-Invasion-2015-Photos?highlight=imperial+invasion

I just don't want your long travel, money and fun factor to go down while you dice with a good running 200X with 8 paddle gliders if you run knobbies. :lol:

Anyway I am out, PM me if you would like help or advice from a guy that has ridden the dunes all over the west since 1978.

phantomtracer

11-18-2015, 01:28 AM

Barnett, maybe a less aggressive paddle tire would be best?
I took another look at some of your suggestions, my only hesitation with those is, they are very aggressive and look to be heavy. I'm thinking like everything this compromise in tire design is not worth it and maybe I just need to suck it up and get a sand specific tire. If you think looping out will be an issue I need to rethink this.

barnett468

11-18-2015, 03:05 AM

.

Barnett, maybe a less aggressive paddle tire would be best?
I took another look at some of your suggestions, my only hesitation with those is, they are very aggressive and look to be heavy. I'm thinking like everything this compromise in tire design is not worth it and maybe I just need to suck it up and get a sand specific tire. If you think looping out will be an issue I need to rethink this.

Phil, I have probably well over 150 hours on a box stock TECATE in deep sand and have climbed hills in the sand with one literally hundreds of times, but I have always used stock TECATE tires on it . . I have also done exactly the same thing with a brand new 1985 ATC250R on the exact same days many times . . I am probably the only person in the world to have done this so I know both bikes extremely well, and even though I did not run paddles on the TECATE, I have run paddles before on other bikes, and through this extensive first hand experience, it's my opinion that your particular bike may very well be a bit of a challenge to ride under some conditions because of how much power it has and the amount of traction this model generates.

It's certainly fine for others that may have never even ridden an '86 TECATE with a stock swingarm, or at least not ridden one hard and under these conditions, to offer suggestions and be adamant about them even though they may not quite understand the point, but its not helpful in your particular case because they are trying to compare apples to oranges.

Also, just like someone else claimed they have done, I too have ridden sand dunes in many different areas including the ones at Glamis which are the ones in question here, and although admittedly, I did not measure and compare the sand grains individual weight, or check their chemical composition in a mass gas spectrometer, or inspect their shape and check them for their coefficient of friction, it is my wild ass guess that one sand dune is pretty much the same as another.

I think Glamy has an '86 TECATE as well as an '85 Honda and he rides in the sand, so he may be able to share his experience and I would send him a pm if he doesn't post . . Also maybe send one to nd4speed since he too has an '86 TECATE . . This way you will get opinions from others whom also have first hand experience with this incredibly powerful machine instead of having to rely on the "experience" of the majority whom of course are Honda riders.
http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/iagree.gif

Selecting the "ideal" tire for someone else can be a bit difficult not knowing how aggressive they ride or exactly what their wanting to achieve, however, if you run aggressive paddle tires on a TECATE with a stock swingarm up a fairly steep hill, I would say that you better be sitting on the gas tank just in case . . This being said, yes, you "can", definitely run paddle tires on your particular bike, but you will definitely have to put in a little more effort to keep the front end down under some circumstances and turning it will be a new experience.

If you do not run a paddle tire and you try to keep up with someone on a hill, they will smoke you even if they are on a 250R . . You will also be able to go higher on a steep hill with paddle tires, so if drag racing up a hill is your intent, or trying to see how far up a steep hill you can get, I would definitely run an aggressive paddle tire and hold simply try to hold on.

As far as running a mild paddle tire just to save weight goes, I don't know if that is worth the trade off since a good knobby might work almost as well, in which case you only need to buy one set of rear tires, so if it was me, and I was going to run a paddle tire, I would go for the gusty and get a fairly aggressive one.

As far as the weight of the tires I posted goes, I can assure you that none of the 4 ply ones are much heavier than a stock TECATE 4 ply tire, and most of any extra weight would be coming from the additional rubber required to make taller knobs on them.

If you want a light weight knobby style tire, you can simply buy a 2 ply one which will work ok in the sand for your particular app, however, I for one wouldn't run a 2 ply anywhere else even if someone offered to pay me to do it, especially because it will make it perform more like a Honda.
http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif
.

barnett468

11-18-2015, 03:16 AM

.
Also, the suggestion by some Honda riders to install numerically LOWER gears in a TECATE which only has a 5 speed transmission, and then run paddle tires on top of it, which by themselves will dramatically increase the load on the engine via the increased amount of traction they provide, suggest to me that they in fact should remain Honda riders.

nd4speed

11-18-2015, 03:32 PM

I ran 20" 8 paddle ITP Sand Stars on 10" Douglas Blue label rims (4/110 + 4/130 dual pattern) with stock 13/37 gearing for hill shooting on the small/medium hills that exist in MI.

The stock tires sucked as that is what I had on when I first got my T3 and my paddles were on my LT250R.
The stock tires worked on hard pack, not sand.

As far as regular tires for hard pack, I always wanted Kenda Klaws but ended up with Titan Fast Trekkers and Kenda Knarlys (because I got good deals on them $50/$60 for 2 new).

Pulling 4th gear on a very large sand hill with that gearing and tire might be hard to do IMO. You might find yourself in 3rd gear up every face. Would be interesting to hear if you had the power to pull fourth or even fifth with what you chose and the 18 tooth main crank gear of stock T3. (I liked the 20 tooth main of the KX better.)

phantomtracer

11-18-2015, 05:58 PM

I'm just looking to have fun and I think you guys convinced me to go with paddle tires. I'm going to the stock gearing of 13/37 with 20"paddle.
Thanks for all the input, I really thought the knobby tire was good enough to but I see the light.

barnett468

11-18-2015, 06:09 PM

I ran 20" 8 paddle ITP Sand Stars on 10" Douglas Blue label rims (4/110 + 4/130 dual pattern) with stock 13/37 gearing for hill shooting on the small/medium hills that exist in MI.

Pulling 4th gear on a very large sand hill with that gearing and tire might be hard to do IMO. You might find yourself in 3rd gear up every face. Would be interesting to hear if you had the power to pull fourth or even fifth with what you chose

Xlnt info nd4spd

Phil's bike is completely stock with the exception of an aftermarket silencer . . I know the sand stars hook up well on many trikes but they are running extended swing arms so they wont hook up as much as they dd on your bike so do you think they might hook up too well on steep hills on his bike and bog it down if he goes to a 2 or 3 tooth larger rear sprocket? . . My guess is that they still might but it will be better.

Have you ever used Skat Trak's Edge or Hauler tires on your TECATE? . . These are the two I am thinking of for him depending on exactly what his goal will be as in drag race and hill climb or all around general use including some power slides etc.

nd4speed

11-18-2015, 07:13 PM

rear sprocket choices suck for second gen T3, unless you have it custom made by sidewinder or somebody.

If it was possible, a 12/42 or 12/40 might be interesting for hill climbs only. For drags 15/37 or 15/35 with KX 20 tooth main setup. But these are just theories as I have never tested them.

The stock gearing and stock trans parts IMO are geared really steep for MX to get to 60MPH in a hurry but does not wind out or climb from there. 3rd gear seems to be where most of the power is at.

My friend had skat trak edges and I have ridden them on the another LT250R. I have never used a Hauler as I wanted to avoid too much traction and less turning ability on my 250cc 2-stroke rides which were not putting out large amounts of power and torque.

I ordered Sand Stars just based on reviews because I was in a hurry and needed them for my first Silver Lake trip.
I jumped test hill in 3rd gear on my LT because I chose the steepest left side and there was a 2-3 foot drop off at the top which I of course did not know about. I knew I was going too fast but I figured I would be ok. I probably was at least 6 feet off the ground and landed flat and pretty hard but it turned out ok. But, most know how it feels to launch straight up and the come straight down and hopefully land flat and be able to hold your own weight as you crumple against hopefully the seat and try to keep from smashing your face into the bars.

Then I proceeded to return to test hill and cruze along the return straight away only to find what I thought was flat land had a huge drop off in the middle of it which I flew right off of and jumped down. Clinched the gas tank with my knees and hit the gas and prayed I didnt smash my nuts. I bumped my left knee pretty good but nothing too painful for dropping off another good 7 foot tall incline. So I almost crashed twice on my first loop. A guy in a rail saw me and stopped and parked and busted out his popcorn waiting for more carnage. I witnessed some that day.

And then of course when you return on a different day the top of the sand hill is isnt even shaped the same way anymore.

nd4speed

11-18-2015, 08:08 PM

At like 5 minutes into this video shows my LT with the Sand Stars on the Bull Gap hill I used to like to race.
The LT250R had a NOS 1986 RM250 cylinder and head (LT Piston), Paul Turner High Rev pipe with 1 1/4" FMF Turbine silencer and stock 34mm Mikuni TM.

It also shows the Tecate with stock tires on the very first ride out after I got it and fixed it up. The tecate did not get traction or go straight as I hit the whooped out face of the hill which did not make me feel very confident and also I was just not used to even riding a 3 wheeler after waiting to get one all those years.

I wish I had a little video with the paddle tires on it the one day I dominated every race on that hill until a guy with a KX500 in an RM250 frame showed up. Me and his buddy on a modded TRX450R went back and forth racing each other and it was a lot of fun cause we were so close in speed and skill.

My goal with that T3 was to go there and put some new 450s to shame, and most of the kids I beat would ask, "What is that thing and what did you do to it?" Usually, I just said it was some 20 year beater I paid $700 for and I didnt have to do anything to the motor, which was actually true. Their silence and looks on their faces was priceless as they realized they paid 5 times too much for something that was new and slow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47xxxn4XpdU

nd4speed

11-18-2015, 09:23 PM

As far as the skat trak edge tires, apparently they are lighter. They will be wider even thought the Sand Stars are supposed to be 10-11" inches wide they are tall and skinny and I doubt 11". The paddles on the Edges are not as tall but they are more cupped. I hear they dont last very long but I had no complaints about they as they worked very well on my friends quad.

The Edges are a solid performance choice and if they are lighter and cost less then I would go that way. I can not however recommend buying ITP aluminum rims.

barnett468

11-18-2015, 09:31 PM

.
Great video, great info, xlnt stuff.

What gear did you start in with each bike?

My friend gave me his modified '85 LT250 to race and it was fast . . Those things run really good when they are modded.

.

barnett468

11-18-2015, 11:44 PM

.

Tecates are junk !
Phil, don't worry about your Tecate being junk because everything is relative, and all this means is that since the '86 TECATE WON the '86 National 3 Wheeler Championship and took around 7 or 8 of the top 10 places, the honda is even junkier. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

My Tecate has not yet gottin where i`d like it to be
I have no idea what swingarm glamy is running on his TECATE, however, if its stock, it seems perfectly reasonable to compare it to one that is 2 feet longer than stock. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

...this is the best handling tire i`ve found for all around riding cause they float like butterfly sting like a bee ! And you`re right YOU don`t want something heavy !!! This game is all about power to weight !!Can`t really duplicate the rawhides...
Since you want to run stock rims, you can't use these because they don't come in your size but otherwise, it's a great suggestion. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/shrug.gif

SWINGARM LENGTH VS TRACTION VS WHEEL SPEED

You want to keep the wheel speed up in the sand . . It's easy for people with swingarms that are 2 feet longer than stock to recommend tires that work well for them, however, the tire they use will have a LOT more traction on a bike with a stock length arm, and if you have a tire that provides too much traction your bike will bog, so there is a bit of a balance that needs to be achieved, therefore, in this case, I would err on the side of caution if possible and lean towards one with a little less traction than one that is known to be a traction monster.

TREAD/PADDLE SHAPE

In my experience, which may be different than some others, tires with a deep straight scoops like the Scat Trak Extremes and Haulers, can make a trike and quad a little harder to do a power slide with because they want to drive the vehicle straight when the power is on.

A "V" tread like some of the images below seem to me to be a little easier to do a power slide with and are what I would use for overall types of riding.

BUY THEN SELL

Since you prefer not to buy two sets of tires, one option is to buy sand tires that are popular then Ebay them for around 60% off retail if you don't want to keep them . . Fortunately, the Banshee guys as well as some others run a lot of 20x10x10 and 20x11x10 tires, so they should be fairly easy to sell.

NUMBER OF PADDLES AND WHEEL SPEED

You don't want tires with so much traction that it bogs your engine and this is certainly possible as nd4spd also mentioned . . Scat Trak will install as many paddles as you want . . The most common numbers for ATC/ATV tires is 8 and 10 . . Rocky Mountain has them in 7, 8, and 10.

For your stock length swingarm, I would definitely not run 10 paddles . . I would actually get the ones with 7 just to err on the side of caution so you don't get too much traction which will bog your engine down.

SCAT TRAK

The following Scat Trak tires are very popular and work very well but Scat Trak uses used tires then buffs them smooth then puts the paddles on, and some people don't like the used tire idea, but its not a big deterrent for most buyers . . Some Scat Traks might leak a little air so its best to check them frequently and take a tube along just in case you get a leaker.

They have three different "buff' levels . . the least expensive s single buff which is what is standard . . if you want double or tripple buff, they will have to be ordered directly from Skat Trak and they will be much more than a single buff . . You can buy single buff from Skat Trak or Rocky Mountain, but Rocky sells them for much less . . The "buffing" removes rubber and therefore lightens the tire . . The more it's buffed, the lighter it is . . You can also send Scat Trak your own tires to be modified.

.................................................. ....... At SCAT-TRAK . . At Rocky

Edge ...... 20x10x10 . . 7 or 8 paddle . . . $180.00 ea . . . $130.00

Hauler .... 20x10x10 . . 7 or 8 paddle . . . $160.00 ea . . . $130.00

SCAT-TRAK CONTACT INFO PADDLE DESCRIPTION

http://www.skat-trak.com/atvsand.html

Scat Trak Edge and Hauler 7 paddle from Rocky.

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/t/723/ATV-Tires-All?sz=7448&vopt=0

Scat Trak Edge and Hauler 8 paddle from Rocky.

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/t/723/ATV-Tires-All?sz=7431&vopt=0

SCAT-TRAK EDGE . . 4 ply, around 10.5 lbs, available with 7, 8, or 10 scoop type V paddles

https://images.rockymountainatvmc.com/images/prod/400/t/t_edg_tire.jpg

SCAT-TRAK HAULER . . 4 ply, around 10 lbs, available with 7, 8, or 10 scoop type straight paddles

https://images.rockymountainatvmc.com/images/prod/400/t/t_hau_tire.jpg

ITP SAND STAR - 2 ply, 8 big paddles with 8 smaller ones, 12.5 lbs . . These will have a lot of traction . . They are also recommended for a 10" wide rim but you "could" use your stockers . . I would use a 7 paddle Scat Trak tire over this one.

.....http://i.ebayimg.com/t/ITP-Sand-Star-Kit-W-Wheels-Raptor-YFZ-Banshee-20x11x10-/16/!BemFM9!!mk~$%28KGrHqIH-DQEreCuEoc5BK93PvvuKw~~_45.JPG

SAND SHARK . . 2 ply with 8 V shaped paddles, around 12.5 lbs . . They are a little taller than advertised and therefore might hit your fenders if you bottom it out . . They are around $60.00 less each than the Scat Tracks . . They are also recommended for a 10" wide rim but you "could" use your stockers . . I would use a 7 paddle Scat Trak tire over this one.

...............http://img0067.psstatic.com/119677356_amazoncom-gbc-sand-shark-atv-bias-tire---20x11-8-.jpg
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