Cool ATV NEWS article from March 1982

[phantomtracer]

Not sure if this was posted, but I have always been interested in the Paul Woods and Lee Rogers Kawasaki trikes of the early 80's
I just stumbled upon this article of lee Rogers. Hope you can read it from the pictures http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/07/5b4fe1729a5140a9416d315af68e544c.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/07/0e66e667ca4cd6737c2909115955d022.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[barnett468]

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LOL, below is part of what I just posted on Billy's steering geometry thread 1 1/2 hours ago . . What are the odds of that.

That photo was taken on the West side of the building that housed the Engineering, Racing and R and D department, and that is right where the door to R and D was . .The front street wasn't very busy so we and the racing department would often use it as a test track . . We never worried about the cops because they rode Kawasaki's and were friendly to US and incredibly tolerant . . I worked with Lee basically every day until he got hurt riding and ended up leaving Kawasaki because of his injury which is when I took over that department of R and D . . I was also interested in buying his and his lovely girlfriends house but ended up buying his portable Jacuzzi instead.




Steering geometry is incredibly complicated, and I can assure you from first hand experience that what looks good on paper does not always work exactly as planned in actual use, which is why every manufacturer has an R and D facility . . One of our engineers named Randy Hall took a 1983 KX 250 and made his own 3 wheeler which had a trailing axle, and we actually compared that against the Tecate prototype, and imo, it was noticeably better overall, lol.

[John_Neary]

very cool bike, couple shots of it from the Score offroad world championship at Riverside in 1981

223553 223554

[barnett468]

very cool bike, couple shots of it from the Score offroad world championship at Riverside in 1981


Wow, what are the odds of that too . . That place was fun . . Is that you on the right in White?

[John_Neary]

No i was only twelve in 1981 and you needed to be 16 to get a Score license, George is the guy with the yellow helmet on the 250R. He was only fifteen but like how i raced the Mickey Thompson races when i was only 14 he had to get a release from a notary public to classify himself as a adult at a early age.

My Dad was all for that stuff, both George and i had our drivers licenses before we where 16 due to living so far from town (rural exemption).

[phantomtracer]

What happened to Lee? Did he hurt himself while riding the 3 wheeler?
Is he around, I bet he would have some great insight into the early times?
It sounds like he just decided to build this bike on his own.




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LOL, below is part of what I just posted on Billy's steering geometry thread 1 1/2 hours ago . . What are the odds of that.

That photo was taken on the West side of the building that housed the Engineering, Racing and R and D department, and that is right where the door to R and D was . .The front street wasn't very busy so we and the racing department would often use it as a test track . . We never worried about the cops because they rode Kawasaki's and were friendly to US and incredibly tolerant . . I worked with Lee basically every day until he got hurt riding and ended up leaving Kawasaki because of his injury which is when I took over that department of R and D . . I was also interested in buying his and his lovely girlfriends house but ended up buying his portable Jacuzzi instead.

[barnett468]

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What happened to Lee? Did he hurt himself while riding the 3 wheeler?
Is he around, I bet he would have some great insight into the early times?
It sounds like he just decided to build this bike on his own.

Lee fell off the 1984 Tecate test bike while we were doing suspension testing at Saddleback on the Baja Cross track and I was filming so we could review the tapes back at the shop with other engineers . . He rode back to the truck and seemed ok other than complaining about a slight kink in his neck which didn't seem like a big deal . . The pain slowly grew over the next several weeks and got so bad he started seeing a pain specialist and other specialists and finally he simply wasn't able to work anymore and got into some legal issues with Kawi over it and I never saw him after that.

As far as that particular bike and its predecessors went, I don't know anything about it other than it or a nearly identical one was brought out mainly for fun to test against the 1984 prototype Tecate . . We had an engineer named Randy Hall whom told me that either he built the bike we tested or he and Lee built it . . Before we tested it, Randy built a new swingarm for it which I took over to a place called National Heat Treating to get it normalized then heat rated so it hopefully wouldn't crack or break . . The axle was also on the rear of the tubes and I think it Randy made different tripple trees for it . . During the comparison test, they had a stop watch on me and I went faster on that bile than I did on the prototype, lol.

As far as doing the bike on his own meaning without permission, yes, that would be the case . . He may have asked the department head if he could or he may not have . . If he didn't ask, it wouldn't really matter . . It's a bit hard to explain but we could do pretty much whatever we wanted with some of the old bikes and use the shop for our own projects etc . . One of the guys from the tech department built the worlds fastest drag bike in its class in the machine shop after hours where he was not even allowed to be . . It required a key to get into which only Racing and Rand D personnel had but he would come knock on the door and someone whomever was there would let him in and then go back to whatever they were doing . . Our welder was a great giu and he would stay late o help him or anyone else that needed help.

As far as building the entire thing on his own I doubt he did that although he was a good fabricator . . Randy was not only an Engineer, he was also a fabricator and machinist and I'm guessing he had Randy or one of the other guys that was also a machinist help with at least some of the stuff.

As far as the early days of 3 wheelers at Kawi before I got there, there was nothing much going on because all they had were the KLT models which were designed and built in Japan and then sent over for testing which was pretty boring on a KLT.

When I started, the bikes and trikes and jet skis were all one department but around 6 weeks after I started, they decided to build the tecate and create a separate department for the bikes so the new projects, jet skis and trikes were all in the department that lee and a friend of mine named ken funkhauser were assigned to . . right after that, ken quit and went to work for honda r and d and they hired a guy named phil nyland whom was the brother of the infamous paul nyland whom was a local legend and an engine builder . . phil eventually quit to go to work for yamaha r and d abd then went to honda racing where they built the off road cars and i think the formulae 1 cars in santa ana.

As far as where lee is or how he is i have no idea but hope he recovered from his injury cuz i've bee there and done that and its not pleasant.

My apologies if my post got a little long but there is so much that went on that I find it difficult to find a place to stop.

:beer

[phantomtracer]

Great story! Thanks, I love to hear those behind the scene stories. I think the fact that Lee built and successfully raced the bike is really cool. It sounds like he loved 3 wheelin and it was a personal project that turned into the kxt. Do you think Lee's had much input into the kxt or did Kawasaki of Japan do their own thing and ship over a prototype?

[barnett468]

Great story! Thanks, I love to hear those behind the scene stories. I think the fact that Lee built and successfully raced the bike is really cool. It sounds like he loved 3 wheelin and it was a personal project that turned into the kxt. Do you think Lee's had much input into the kxt or did Kawasaki of Japan do their own thing and ship over a prototype?


phantomtracer, I am happy you like that story and some of the others I have posted . . I know I occasionally write a lot, and as I mentioned, it's because there is so much stuff that went on, and there are details that I for one think are interesting and think some others might also.

Yes, I too think it was cool of him to do, and can you imagine what people at the races thought when they saw it . . His riding background was actually in motocross, and I really have no idea what motivated him to build a high perf 3 wheeler . . He probably told me and I just forgot . . It's quite a few years back now.

As far as Lee's bike having any influence on Kawasaki's decision to build one, I don't know, however, my guess is that it did have some but certainly would not have been the only thing that influenced them . . When I say them, I mean the management that actually makes the decision as to what they want to build for production, and this division of the management is in Japan . . We also had a manger in house whom was from Japan and was the main liaison between Japan and US R and D and Racing department . . Japan would tell him what they were going to build and what bikes or special projects to expect like the MULE and the JET MATE boat etc, and when to expect them . . He would then tell us what they would be and what the scheduling/deadlines would be for completing certain phases of the projects etc.

We also had a "New Concepts" division that was run by two engineers named Randy Hall and Jerry Marcell . . Jerry was an ex flat track racer and the designer of one of the old Triumphs that became very famous. . . Any of us in Rand D, including those two guys, could propose a project to the manager and he would tell us if we could go forward with it . . I don't now if he made the decision for these projects on his own or if he conferred with Japan first to get their approval . . One of these projects was a 4 wheeler with independent suspension and 4 wheel steering that Jerry build by himself and we tested for him.

Anyway, all I remember regarding the origin of the Tecate is that one day the manager told us that Japan was going to build a high perf 250 cc 3 wheeler, and the goal was to compete directly with Honda and win the Championship . . Well, like many people would, I thought this was a very lofty, and ambitious, and basically unrealistic goal, especially since Lee and Randy were the only people that had any experience building one, and neither they, nor any of us would be involved with having a lot of input on its basic design, and Japan certainly didn't have any experience building anything like that, and really, Kawi's expertise up until that time lied mainly in putting ridiculously fast engines in less than xlnt handling chassis.

Also, they had no rider when they made this decision and had absolutely no idea whom they could get for certain, so I had no idea what the heck they were thinking . . It's like they just figured that if they built it, the riders will come, lol . . I mean I seriously thought they had been hittin the Saki bottle a bit too much, however, as it turned out, they built it, and we developed it, and a disgruntled privateer Honda rider named Jimmy White basically fell into their lap, and low and behold, the first year out, Kawi won the Mickey Thompson Series Championship with Jimmy at the helm, and I simply thought...how the hell dd that happen . . We actually never had a Honda to even look at or test ride until late 85 when we were doing the 86 prototype testing, so basically, the 84 Tecate was done with basically very little to use as a reference.

Anyway, after they told us they were going to build the Tecate, which had not been named yet, Japan sent a motorcycle engineer over whom had never designed a single part for a 3wheeler and whom spoke very little English, and all they gave him was a drafting table and a chair, and then they said, ok, there ya go, now design a winner for us . . Now, this was years before cell phones and fancy computers with CAD programs etc, so he drew every inch of it by hand and it took him around 1 year . . After he was finished, the drawings were sent to Japan which is where they built the bike . . Our machine shop had all the tools and machines to build a chassis so we certainly could have done it, but but it was far more practical for Japan to do it because they had to make dyes and molds etc anyway, plus we simply didn't didn't have enough people to spare for something like that.

The primary job of R and D was to test and develop bikes, not to build them too . . We did however engineer, and build, and modify a lot of parts, and also built all the new concept vehicles in our shop which became another one of my primary jobs, since at that time, Jerry and the shop welder were the only fabricators and Jerry was to busy designing to spend much time fabricating, and the welder couldn't do everyone's project at the same time.

The water craft department had a manager whom was an electrical engineer that previously worked in our Kansas plant on snowmobiles and knew absolutely nothing about water craft or mechanics or designing, but he was good with paperwork, so whenever that department needed something built, they would hire outside designers and have me help them build their projects . . I also occasionally build them entirely on my own to save money because these outside designers were getting a ton of money, and the water craft department might have been on more of a budget then the R and D and new concepts departments were . . Fortunately for me, the two designers they used were true masters in their field which was boats, so I was able to learn a lot from them.

As far as inspirations for the actual design, I don't remember the Tecate designer ever looking at Lees bike although he certainly may have, but if he did, he certainly didn't copy it verbatim. . He was a very creative guy, and the engineering and styling was basically mostly his own, however we would make suggestions for some aspects like ergonomics etc . . It was Japans decision to use what ended up being the Tecate cylinder instead of a KX cylinder . . If it had been R and D's choice, we certainly would have had liked to have had a KX cylinder, however, one of the problems with that is that the bike had to have a spark arrestor, and there was no way a KX cylinder would run properly with the muffler that the Tecate ended up with . . That would have been laughable.


Oh...and just so you can feel certain that you bought the right bike, below are one of Jimmy's comments about it from an interview.

Q - If you could build what you would deem ‘the ultimate three wheeler’ and could have any part from ‘back in the day’ to build it – what would you use?

A - Each year the changes made to either the production Honda/Kawasaki etc or race bikes helped tremendously. My last 86 factory Kawasaki was amazing.

http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif

oops...just couldn't help myself. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/smile.gif


So again, hopefully this wasn't to long or boring either.

:beer

[danbur55]

Thanks Barn for keeping the history of the sport alive It reminds me of stories that grandparents tell but as kids we don't care but years later well damn if we wish we had listened. At least now some things are in print

[phantomtracer]

That rear axle housing on Lee's bike looks to be exactly what is on the tecate. I'd like to believe the engineer had a good look at Lee's bike, makes for a better story.

Barnett, can you comment on the front tire size, it looks like a lot of the old trikes had a small diameter front tire, then once Honda put a tall tire on the 83 everyone copied then. Did you ever test different sized tires on the 86?
Is it just a matter of it rolling over bumps easier.

[barnett468]

That rear axle housing on Lee's bike looks to be exactly what is on the tecate. I'd like to believe the engineer had a good look at Lee's bike, makes for a better story.

Oh, it's certainly possible that he used that style axle housing and some of the other features because he saw it on Lees bike . . What I meant by not copying it verbatim is that he did not set it up on the measuring table and accurately measure everything which would have given him the steering angles also . . The Tecate had a totally different frame and suspension linkage and suspension ratio and less suspension travel and different steering angle and weight bias etc.



Barnett, can you comment on the front tire size, it looks like a lot of the old trikes had a small diameter front tire, then once Honda put a tall tire on the 83 everyone copied then. Did you ever test different sized tires on the 86?
Is it just a matter of it rolling over bumps easier.

I'll answer this in a little while.
.

[barnett468]

.


Barnett, can you comment on the front tire size, it looks like a lot of the old trikes had a small diameter front tire, then once Honda put a tall tire on the 83 everyone copied then. Did you ever test different sized tires on the 86?
Is it just a matter of it rolling over bumps easier.

84 -85 front tire

The tire Lee used was a 22x11x8 and was right off of a KLT which had the "Golf Course Tread" . . The tire on the Tecate was 22x11x10, so that was different and far better for that app due to it's greater resistance to rolling over in a turn which was improved by using a tire with a shorter sidewall . . The tread was also totally different on the Tecate tire . . As far as testing of different front tires for this model, we felt the one that was on there was decent enough, however, never having ridden an ATC250R prior to that, we didn't have any realistic point of reference . . If we had tested a Honda, we might have elected to use something a little different.


86-87 front tire

As good as the 86 Tecate is, it is an unfinished bike and is NOT quite as good as it could have been because we simply ran out of time.

No, we did not copy the Honda tire nor is it really very similar at all as you can see by the dimensions listed below . . The 86-87 Tecate and its front tire were just the natural evolution of things much like cars and their tires have evolved over the years . . 20 years ago, who would have thought that any Mercedes Benz would come with would come with a low profile 50 series tire or be able to do 11.'s I the quarter mile with the air conditioning on.

The first 86 prototype had the 85 rim and tire on it, and the second I saw it, I almost hurled and immediately decided it had to go just based on appearances alone because it simply looked retarded on that bike.

I was a motocross rider/racer [not an ATV rider], so I liked rough tracks and wanted the bike to perform well on what most ATV riders would consider extremely rough like Saddleback or Carlsbad Motorcycle MX tracks . . One of the reasons I did this is because if a bike performs well on extremely rough terrain, it will work pretty good on smooth tracks too, however, a bike that is developed for smooth tracks or less harsh terrain, will work like crap on a rough track, therefore making it work on a rough track was the best of both worlds, especially since not everyone only rides a 3 wheeler on a glass smooth TT track.

The test track Kawi owned in Japan was filled with sharp edged potholes and was bone dry and rock hard, and although I didn't have a taller front tire to test at the time, I knew from experience that a taller one would provide a less jarring ride, unfortunately, because I had to re-eingeer so much of the bike, we ran out of time to test a different front tire, so I basically "guestimated" what I thought would work and they made it after I came back to the S then had thir good test rider test it to make sure it was going to work and actually be better before they sent the bike over for the remainder of its development.

We also bought a brand spankin new ATC250R to compare it to.


FRONT TIRE DIMENSIONS

For some perspective, the aspect ratio numbers are calculated the same way they are on automotive tires . . Tires with aspect ratio numbers in the 50's would typically be found on high performance cars like Porsche's and Ferrari's etc, and ones with a ratio in the 60's are typically found as performance replacement tires on vintage muscle cars, and ones with a ratio of 75 thru 78 were typically found on large luxury liners from the 60's and 70's like the Cadillac Biarritz, and although the Caddy certainly is very stylish much like the ATC25R is, the Caddy is much better known for its Barcalounger type comfort than it is for is corner carving prowess.

84/85 Tecate … 22 tall x 11 wide - 10 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 54.54.

86/87 Tecate … 23 tall x . 9 wide - 11 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 66.66 . . increase in aspect ratio from 84/85 Tecate = 22.22%

85/87 Honda … 23.0 tall x . 8 wide - 11 rim . . sidewall height = 6” . . percentage of sidewall height to tire width [aspect ratio] = 75.0 . . increase in aspect ratio from 86/87 Tecate = 12.5%